Pontiac GTO

sputterguy

Well, that certainly is a lot of information. Doesn't quite sound like 'tightened bolts'. It appears to only take half an hour to install the new insulators and GM should be paying for it so I don't know why they didn't go all the way. Maybe this is the first GTO they've seen with this problem. Anyway, thanks Robert. By the way, I get the thunk when I turn right into a driveway that has an incline. I've never had it happen on launch. I doubt I've ever launched it that aggressively. The dealer probably thinks I do though. Oh well. Thanks again

hammen2

When you get the thunk when turning right, are you sure it's happening from the rear, or the front? Because, after they worked on the car for the firewall issue, it started having problems with clunking from the front on turns. There's some kind of front stabilizer bar issue - drilled out the ends and replaced bolts, and the problem only stayed fixed for a month before it returned. Never got it fixed as it became buyback/exchange time. The "Thunk in the Trunk" TSB was done to my car, too, even though it was after the VIN breakpoint, and it made things better, but didn't totally resolve it. We'll see in April if my replacement car has any of these issues.

 

--Robert

zinger

Robert,

Do you know the Vin # for the breakpoint? I am still shopping 04's and would like to get one that will need the least amount of work.

 

Thanks

hammen2

Right up above in the TSB:

 

"Built Prior to VIN Breakpoint 4L246712"

olrdv

Thanks for your reply.

I need to bleed the brakes as a minimum. I am not that happy, I feel they are unsafe for a quick stop.

Regarding mpg, my average is about 18.5mpg of mixed driving.

cccompson

Several folks on other boards have reported better (though still not great) pedal feel after CHANGING the brake fluid.

kevm14

The real issue is that I am not that happy with the brakes, very soft, spongy, etc etc. It seems they need to be bled. Wife's RendezVous CXL has better brakes!!! Am I alone with this perception about the brakes????

 

When I test drove one of the first GTOs in my area in January of 04, this is one of the first things I noticed. I was hoping it was an isolated thing, but I got a few replies that it was normal. It's not so much that the mushy brakes bother me (they do), but that NO ONE else seems to have a problem with it! For every reply I got that said "yeah, mine are mushy too - they all are" I got about 10 that said "mine stops fine" or other non-specific reply. We already knew the brakes were mediocre on the 04, though, as they have addressed that for 05. Sad thing is, they're still not that great.

olrdv

thanks for your reply. I will ask the dealer to bleed the brake lines and ... how about aftermarket (or upgraded GM /Corvette ??) brake pads??? Any experience out there ???

jontyrees

Is it an issue with the traction control? There's a button between the seats to toggle it on/off. Apologies if you've already tried this.

 

BTW - I'm getting 17.5-18mpg, urban, with some in-town highway stuff, M6. My wife was getting 14 and dropping on her more urban commute, but then she likes 4th gear on her short highway sections!

dat2

Has improved on a recent extended hiway romp, from about 19 to now about 23 at a generally steady 75 mph. THis is with the M6. In town driving still seems around 16 or 17.

dat2

Lately my shifter on my M6 is getting buzzy. I have 2100 miles on it. Anyone else have this problem? It is under light (or more) acceleration.

mpd67

Thanks, I didn't realize that it the T/C turns itself back on each time you turn off the ignition. I'm getting about 17 mpg in towm, about 21 hwy, perhaps an OD would have made hwy mpg closer to 6M trans.

mpd67

I found that the car vibrates a bit at 60mph cold in the am. after a bit, smooths right out

sputterguy

It's definitely coming from the right rear. It must hit right under the trunk because the sound kinda echoes through the trunk. I'll see what they have to say when I contact the dealer again. thanks again

hammen2

The cold morning vibration is the tires flat-spotting overnight. They smooth out as they warm up. If you store the car for any length of time, you should inflate the tires a bit more to keep this from happening (why the tires are 60 psi from the factory :-)

 

--Robert

tolenash

Anyone test drive or buy one yet?

cccompson

There are many such reports on other sites. The general consensus seems to be that the extra 50 horsepower is quite real and the drive-by-wire system is better, especially in relation to traction control operation.

jpstax1

I haven't test driven an '05 yet, but some of the reports I've read say it's faster than the '04. That means it should be able to beat the '05 Mustang GT, and the musclecar wars will resume between GM and Ford. I read in "Car and Driver" that a stock '05 GT beat a stock '04 GTO by 0.2 seconds in their 0-60 test. They said an '05 GTO would probably beat an '04 GT, but they weren't given an '05 to prove it. I wonder if the Impala SS will get the LS1 and RWD next year? There seems to be a lot more parts sharing at GM lately.

rorr

I'm confused: didn't C&D just DO a direct comparison of the '05 Mustang GT and the '05 GTO? It was at least a month or so ago. And if I remember correctly, even though they ended up choosing the GT, that the GTO just flat waxed the Mustang in every acceleration measure (0-60, 1/4mile, and top speed).

rorr

January issue of C&D compares '05 GTO to '05 Mustang GT.

 

here are the performance results:

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article- _id=8908&page_number=4

 

From what I read in the article, their biggest beef was with the rubbery shifter and awkward pedal layout.

jpstax1

The review I saw said they were only given an '04 GTO to test against an '05 Mustang GT. Someone at Pontiac couldn't provide them with an '05 in time for their tests. If you read differently, then Pontiac evidently supplied C&D with an '05 Goat and they reran their drag race.

jpstax1

Here's a link to the C&D review that I read:

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article- - _id=8908&page_number=2

 

Read the 3rd paragraph down. I don't want you to think I'm a BSer.

rorr

??????

 

Where in the heck do you read that? They only say they didn't have an '05 to test in time for the 10-Best comparison.

 

"Fresh off a 10Best victory, the Mustang looked like the clear favorite, but we hadn't yet driven the enlivened 2005 GTO."

 

Note it says "hadn't". Not "haven't". The meat of the article makes it clear they tested an '05 GTO against the Mustang. And all photos in the article are clearly of an '05.

 

"Last year's GTO was 0.2 second slower to 60 and in the quarter than the new Mustang GT; if you'd driven them back-to-back, it's unlikely you'd be able to differentiate between the two. Now the disparity is quite apparent as the GTO has moved below five seconds for the 0-to-60 sprint-that's M3 territory."

 

Note they say "Now the disparity is quite evident".

rorr

Sorry - I not trying to insinuate you're BSing.....I just think we are reading the exact same thing and reaching two different conclusions.

 

peace

jpstax1

Here's the third paragraph in the article:

 

"The sound piped out of the exhaust comes from the new LS2 6.0-liter V-8 lifted nearly intact from the C6 Corvette. It makes 50 more horses than last year's 5.7-liter LS1, for a total of 400, and 400 pound-feet of torque. Last year's GTO was 0.2 second slower to 60 and in the quarter than the new Mustang GT; if you'd driven them back-to-back, it's unlikely you'd be able to differentiate between the two. Now the disparity is quite apparent as the GTO has moved below five seconds for the 0-to-60 sprint-that's M3 territory."

 

Says "last year's GTO was 0.2 seconds slower to 60 and in the quarter than the new Mustang GT."

jpstax1

Hey rorr. In one particular instance I was wrong. Here are some sound clips of the '04 GTO:

 

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12120

 

If you go down to post #2, you'll see a link for some sound clips. One of them shows a video of a drag race between an '04 GTO and an '05 Mustang. The '05 Mustang got waxed by the '04 Goat.

rorr

Ummm.....a few points:

 

1. GTO driver got a clear hole shot. Better driver.

2. As stated in the video, the Mustang was only out 3 days. An extremely green production motor won't be as quick as one that's broken in.

3. Different drivers could easily result in different results. Which is why I trust published results from a comparision test where the SAME driver does all the instrument tests and for 1/4 mile runs they do multiple runs and chose the best one.

4. I'm 99.9% sure the brand new Mustang in the video was bone stock. What are the odds that the '04 GTO was too? After all, this was posted on a LS1 enthusists site where, amoung other things, they talk about mods.

 

Getting back to our earlier discussion: I'm maintaining that the C&D comparo was a direct comparison between an '05 GTO and an '05 Mustang. Is it your contention that they tested on '04 GTO in that comparo OR only that the '05 wasn't tested in time for the 10-best feature?

jpstax1

I think the later. BTW, you're probably right with all four of your points. Anyway, I hate Mustangs and am ecstatic every time I seen them lose. I once raced a kid with an earlier 'Stang with my stock '98 Regal GS. He was really surprised when I beat him by a car length before shutting down at 50. We were lucky no cops were around. I think I caught him by surprise with my geezermobile.

dat2

Hello all, I recently had my 1 month old 04 goat serviced at the local Pontiac dealer. They did an admirable job diagnosing all my little niggles, they intalled new bushings for the rear thump issue, new shifter for a serious rattle, ordered a new seat track for an off-track factory, and lubed squeeky hinges. Overall the did a good job and were very professional, at sam swope in louisville.

b4z

Just got contacted by another GTO owner in Charleston.

Apparently yours is not the only

IBM GTO.

I told him to come here and register.

rorr

Thanks for clearing that up. For a while I thought you were confused about which model was in the direct Mustang vs. GTO comparison.

 

FYI - the 10best feature was probably done several weeks before the comparison test between the '05 GTO and new Mustang. So I wasn't surprised that an '05 wasn't ready in time for the 10best feature.

 

RE - Mustangs: well, different opinions is what makes the world go 'round. I'm glad that GM has at least ONE decent muscle car in it's stable; even if it is made in Australia.......8^)

bigdaddycoats

Did you get your new GTO yet?

hammen2

I assume you're talking about me...

 

http://www.hammen.net/newgto/

 

Sleeping in storage until April, with 42 miles on the car. It took GM 54 days to complete the repurchase/exchange paperwork (dealer had the car traded within 3 days). In the 4 1/2 months of ownership of the first car, I got to drive it 47 days (35+ days in the shop before they pulled the plug).

 

--Robert

bigdaddycoats

Yes, I was talking about you. The car looks sweet. Hope it treats you better than the first one.

roguetrader01u

Robert,

Nice. What prep work did you do for storage?

Cheers.

cccompson

Robert, I would like to thank you. I did quite a bit of research on the GTO last month and your posts here (and elsewhere) were informative, insightful, and helpful.

 

Ultimately, I gambled that incentives would get better today but, alas, they went away, apparently at least until April.

 

Glad you finally got your replacement unit and hope it brings you much enjoyment come warm weather.

zinger

What did you hear will change in April? Best I can do is $24,000 for a 6SP.

cccompson

I was merely alluding to the fact that current offers will run through March 31.

 

If you can buy an '04 M6 for $24,000 today, by all means do so. That (well, $100 less) was the best price I was quoted in late January.

jpstax1

I got some work done today on my Regal GS. The dealer is now selling Pontiacs as well. Anyway, I asked a salesman if he had any '05 Goats in the lot yet. He said they're expecting delivery any day for two of them (a silver one and a black one). They weren't ordered by anyone. They'll be using the black one (a 6-speed) as a demo. I asked if I could come in and test drive it, and he said sure. It's a good dealership (Marquardt Buick/Pontiac in Barrington, IL). No pressure to buy.

hammen2

Thanks to everyone for the congratulations on the new goat. I cannot wait for this winter to end so I can actually drive the new car! Well, I did drive it, but only backed it up onto my buddy's trailer, then drove it off and into the storage facility (well, I couldn't resist and did a quick donut in the parking lot :-)

 

To prep the car, I had the dealership change the oil and filter right before I picked it up. Also had them put some Stabil (fuel stailizer) in the full tank of gas they put in when prepping the car. Did not have them detail the vehicle, as they have an automated "touch" carwash and I didn't want any part of that (will detail it myself in spring). Also bought an inexpensive, breathable car cover (storage facility is heated, so no need for a big heavy, thick, non-breathable one).

 

Oh, I also had the tires pumped back up to their shipping state of 60 PSI (to keep them from flat-spotting). Got a huge roll of .8 mil plastic and doubled it, putting it under the car (to provide a vapor barrier between the concrete floor and the car). Also stuffed some rags in the muffler tips, and, regrettably, put a couple of mothballs near the air intake (had to excavate a family of mice from my mom's car when it was un-stored last spring :-)

 

I also pulled the battery, which seemed to be weeping a little bit. Put it in my basement on my workbench, with the intent of getting a battery tender. Noticed last week that it detinitely was leaking - was taking it out to my "winter" car to take to the dealer, and it slipped out of my hands and dropped, contacts-first, onto the garage floor, cracking it, leaking fluid all over (got it out into a snowbank ASAP). So, looks like I'll be buying an Optima battery come springtime. Will also change the oil when it comes out (probasbly switch to M1), and flush the brake fluid (common complaint is that it's contaminated from the factory - kind of a greyish-blackish mess).

 

--Robert

hammen2

There won't be any more incentives on the '04's , other than maybe something like the $1500 GM loyalty rebate (which ended last month). The final payout on the GTO was $5k.

 

So, figure around $30-$31k for invoice (depending on M6/A4). Subtract the $5k dealer payout, and you're still at $25-$26k. If you've got someone willing to sell to you for less (since the loyalty rebate ended), they're either cutting into their holdback or selling at a loss.

 

There's maybe 1200-1500 04's still around. Dealers will use them to pitch to those who come in wanting an '05 but can't swing it for $$$ reasons. I would expect the majority to be gone in another 2-3 months. No deals on '05's, yet. Unlike last year, the '05 production will stop in May/June, so the 06's can start showing up here in the US in September. No news on changes for '06, but probably won't be much externally (unlike '04-'05)...

 

--Robert

hammen2

Be aware that there's now a fix for the gauge cluster going nuts (temp gauge spiking and then falling, or speedo jumping up to 200 mph). There's an update on the January service CD which will allow the dealer to flash/reprogram most clusters (except for some newer cars... VIN breakpoint is past the 301xxx where my July car is - in that case, swapping the gauge cluster is required). I don't believe this is TSB yet, but it will be. Any dealership who knows what they are doing should be able to look at the January CD and find out this issue, FYI.

 

--Robert

jpstax1

Do you think they'll be discounting the '05 Goats the same as the '04 ones this time next year (or when the '06 models start arriving)? Maybe I should wait until then and not pay for their price gouging. Even with the new LS2 engine, any Pontiac shouldn't be that expensive.

 

-Jack

midwesttrader

My short answer is yes, they will be discounting the '05. The real question is when and how much?

 

Pontiac sold 898 '05s last month with the $1500 loyalty incentive in play. Their goal is 1K per month. With the cash incentive now gone it will be very interesting to see what February sales are like. I believe that the weather will be a big factor. An early spring won't hurt.

 

Supply and distribution will also be factors. They've said they will produce 12K total. Even with the shorter production period, anyone want to bet they will make more than that if sales are hot?

 

There is no reason to pay more than msrp for this car. The gmbuypower site makes it very easy to locate inventory and solicit quotes.

hammen2

I don't know if they'll make more than the 12k they've promised for '05 production. They have a hard deadline of starting '06 production in June, so that they can have cars on the lots in September (a good move, IMHO). There's only so many cars they can make at Holden's plant in a year, and they also export a number of vehicles to the Middle East.

 

I think you will see a return of incentives on the '05's, but probably not near the level of discounting on the '04's. It really depends what your wishes/desires are. If you like the car, are stuck on a particular color/tranny combo, buy it. If you don't need the car, or if it's a stretch financially, and you care less about color/tranny, wait.

 

--Robert

jpstax1

I wonder if the Goat will eventually be made here? You would think Mr. Lutz would start the ball rolling on this issue. Why should we have to pay for destination charges for a car made in Australia that could be made either here or in Canada. At least GM is allowing some parts sharing among their divisions. Chevy and Pontiac come to mind. I read where GM is building (or have already built) a new plant near Detroit dedicated to making high performance engines and trannys.

hammen2

Yes it will be made here, in time for the 2007 model year. Holden will still be doing the engineering on the new Zeta RWD chassis, but the design and assembly will be done here. As a matter of fact, in a case of role-reversal, the next-gen Holden Monaro will likely be built here in the 'States and exported back to Australia (plan was the Detroit-Hamtramck (Poletown) plant, where the soon-to-die Bonneville, LeSabre and Park Avenue were made, along with the Deville/DTS); new GTO and unnamed Chevy counterpart for 2007, don't know when the Pontiac full-size sedan will be out; there are Buick coupe/convertibles and sedans coming as well, and then Impala/Monte replacements by 2009).

 

--Robert

ocmike3

Motorweek reviewed the 2005 GTO this week. Okay review, seems like their biggest complaint is the tires. (If you run the GTO hard)

 

http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt2423.shtml

johnv43

Stopped at the dealer for a test drive, as he had a Black/Red Automatic that just come in. The exterior changes are an improvement over 2004, particularly the dual exhaust with bright tips. The exhaust sound has been tuned on the loud side when idling or accelerating, but only has a slight drone when cruising. The car rode stiffer that I expected, and felt a bit heavy. Power came on smoothly and the brakes were strong. Handling seemed good and it cornered flat. The no-cost 18 inch wheels with summer tires are not available yet, that's an option I would wait for. As for pricing, the salesman felt that rebates would not be needed to sell the 2005's. He said Pontiac made a mistake by announcing the LS2 upgrade so soon after the 2004's came out, and a lot of people decided to wait for the 2005's. Of the three 2005's that came in to this dealer, the two 6 speeds sold immediately. All in all, a good choice, but I'll wait to see what the market price is in a few months.

sputterguy

My two cents. I'm glad the car is made in Australia. They have a little higher standard over there. The quality is so much better than any Pontiac made here or any other American car for that matter. And that includes the new Mustang although they seem to have done a good job upgrading it from the junk it was. And I can't believe you guys are complaining about having to pay $24K for a GTO. You get Camry's and Altima's and stripped down Mustang GTs for $24K. Just my opinion.