Pontiac GTO

jae5

Thanks for the info, was just curious about that.

 

Do you, or anyone elseon this board, believe the new model will have this tax?

graphicguy

sputterguy....Being a Pontiac fan, I'll admit that I've been disappointed in their recent efforts. Lutz got everyone's attention with the Solstice (which by early accounts will be "the real deal" in the roadster market). Then.....nothing.......

 

The GTP is getting long in the tooth. Today, it even trails the Accord V6 for crying out loud. Plus, the Accord is about as vanilla as you can get in the 4-door sedan market (OK....maybe Camry's are a tad more vanilla). G6, in my humble opinion is a "dud". The GXP now has a Northstar, but unless you're a car nut, you'd never know it.

 

That brings us to the GTO. Great engine....OK shifter. I don't see the advantage of build quality, but I don't live with one everyday, either....so, I'll reserve judgment. I still say price and style are the real culprits on why the GTO hasn't been the sales success it should have been.

 

C'mon Pontiac....you're the performance division of GM. Surely, you can do better.

hammen2

If you're talking about the 2007, I have no idea. I do know a six-speed auto is rumored for the next-gen car, and that will help.

 

The 2005 has a $1300 tax. I don't see that going away for 2006, either.

bottgers

I didn't mean Pontiac should offer a stripper "V6" version of the GTO, I meant they should offer a stripper version with the same engine and drivetrain of the current model. Sort of like what jar5 mentioned about the old 5.0 GT and LX model Mustangs. Customers had their choice of buying the GT model with all the fixins, or they could opt for for an LX stripper model with all the go fast goodies and none of the bells and whistles at a much lower price. In fact, the LX models were actually quicker than the GT's because they were lighter. Pontiac could do this with the GTO as well and offer for a price well under $30K, and maybe even under $25K. This is more of the price range the GTO should be in.

sputterguy

I have to agree with you. Motorweek says "the GTO is first and foremost a straight line muscle car". Where in the world did they get that. The 60's GTOs were straight line muscle cars. This GTO is one of the finest handling cars on the road. And it has brake fade and soft springs on the tract? Do they think the Mustang will do better? The GTO has better brakes. It stopping distance is shorter than the Mustang. Not a whole lot, but the Mustang weighs less and takes longer to stop. But then, the Mustang and GTO shouldn't be compared. They are two different cars with two different demographics. The GTO is more refined and appeals to a more mature crowd. The Mustang is a kids car. I know, people say just the opposite. But, about 12,000 or so old guys will buy the Mustang for the retro look, but that leaves about 138,000 that will be sold to kids. Anyway, that's the way I see it.

brushbandit

Style could be a problem but I don't see how 31K for an 05 is a high price. 400hp with a 0 to 60 in 4.6 seconds and a low 13 1/4 mile. Go shop those numbers in other brands and see how much you will spend. A souped up econobox WRX sti is about all you come up with for the same money. And a new mustang GT comes close to the performance but doesn't get there, comporably equipped it is about 30k.

brushbandit

People can have their "unstripped" GTO for under 25K now. Just go to your local Pontiac dealer and buy one of the 04 leftovers that are selling for around 24K.

scottl

GM amazes me. They released both the '04 and '05 in the middle of Winter. They gave enormous rebates on the '04's, setting an expectation that the '05s will get the same. Meanwhile, the dealers in my area still have '04s and are not bringing in '05s until the '04s sell.

 

People who HAD to have a GTO bought the '04 at MSRP or higher, and now have taken a more than $10K depreciation hit in nine months, so they are mad. No trade ups in that pipeline.

 

I hear through the grapevine that the '06s will be here in October (which is good), but that begs the question of how they will sell the '05s at that point. At the rate these things are selling, there will still be '04s on the lots.

 

The Mustang is selling well. Is the Mustang competition? Of course.

 

BMW is about to release a new 3 series. Pontiac thinks this is competition, so maybe this is freezing some sales, too.

 

The bottom line: GM screwed up big time. '05's will have rebates sooner or later.

 

When I can get an '05 M6 for $26K, I'll buy one. I'm guessing November.

cracovian

Judging by the pictures and 360 interior views on the Holden site, I'd say that we already have a stripped down version of their Monaro CV8... Where are the extra gauges and the temp. LCD display in the middle of the dashboard for example? GTO's dash comes from the Commodore SV6 sedan version:

 

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/gallery?navid=4

 

BTW, I absolutely love my "free" GTO. Hopefully, '06s will come with side airbags and the temp. display of some kind.. oh, and the rebates too :-)

nova

Does any one on this sight know how mpg the GTO would have to get to eliminate the tax on the automatic trans? Maybe if they go to a 5 speed auto?

sputterguy

The G6 a "dud"? I don't know, I've never checked it out. It looks like a stripped down Grand Prix to me. The GXP with a Northstar? I don't know, I guess I would have to see some perfomance figures. There are some inherent limitations with front wheel drive, so I don't expect to see any head turning performance out of it. I personally prefer the supercharged version. There is nothing like a supercharger to command respect. Like you said, that brings us to the GTO and that's about the only excitement Pontiac has to offer. We'll see what happens when it's made here in the States. I bet it will be like thw Grand Prix now with different perfomance levels culminating with one top of the line model. I'm glad I have the '04. There are only about 12,000 and that's all there will ever be.

sakinosh

So there's all this talk that Pontiac has their share of "duds" out there right now...but what if the GTO turns out to be a dud as far as sales go? I mean, '04's that had over $10k in incentives/rebates to move them...and I can see the same thing happening for the '05's.

   I'd actually LOVE to see this car have slow sales...I agree with a previous post that it's nice to drive around something that you don't see everyday. Everybody and their grandma has a Mustang (geez, my best friend has had 3!) - not to say they're bad cars, but there's something to be said about having a unique car.

   At some point would GM just outright dump this car in the U.S. due to slow sales? If they're losing money after incentives/rebates, why keep beating a dead horse? I just can't wait to get one when the incentives DO come out...and I won't really care about poor resale - I don't plan on selling it. I just want to leave for work everyday like this:

 

http://img.s10forum.com/album1231/agd.mpeg

graphicguy

Sputter....part of the problem with Pontiac is they never really marketed the GTO. I know the GTO people hate comparisons to the new Mustang, but just look at what Ford did to launch it. See all the advertising in got in the high profile media. Pontiac, on the other hand, ran some print ads and then let the GTO languish. I know when I test drove the GTO, I remember the sales guy saying that the Bonny GXP now had a Northstar V8 (again, not well publicised).

 

I do agree about the 3.8 supercharged V6. It was a dandy of an engine. The general, after years of refining the motor, just stopped after they put it into the '97 GTP. Then it started to lose the race to motors like Honda's DOHC V6s that they put in the Accord and the Acuras.

 

The G6 has been universally panned by the car rags. I've never driven one, but even doing the Oprah "stint" hasn't really helped it. I'm certain it's better than the Grand Am, but it's certainly not the "home run" that they needed.

 

I have a Vibe in my stable. But, for all intents and purposes, it's Corolla drive train and mechanicals are fairly uninspired. That said, it does offer good fuel economy and is built well. Plus, it looks a lot better than its twin, the Toyota Matrix.

 

The Aztec was a disaster.

 

Pontiac (and every GM model short of the Corvette and the more recent Caddys) has seemed to have lost its way.

 

sakinosh...I for one, hope the '05 GTO is a success. That will give GM more impetus (and a decent business model) to justify its existence. I think some healthy competition between Ford and GM would do a world of good for the car enthusiast.

 

Just look at what Chrysler has done with the hemi. That's been a smash and put them right back on the map.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing a "new" small block Chevy (305). I do understand that they are putting V8 power in the Monte Carlo (although I think the pics I've seen are another "miss" on the styling front). Apparently, they'll do the same thing to the current Impala.

jontyrees

Not trying to start an argument here, just genuinely curious about something. I keep reading comments to the tune of "$30k is too much for this car, it's just not worth that much" If this car is not worth 30k, exactly what car is? Answers limited to those cars that have an MSRP at least within striking distance of $30k please!

It just seems to me that this car is worth that and then some - 350hp or 400hp, hellacious performance, very solid construction, outstanding seats/interior in general, strong transmission, decent amenities (lacking a little - Nav, Auto Climate, higher end stereo), more realistic back seat room than any competitor. It's not perfect, but take a look around - $30k is not a high sticker any more.

Am I biased? Sure! I got a good deal on an '04 GTO, and I'm loving it!

cccompson

While I am inclined to agree with you, the market apparently has decided otherwise given the firesale that was necessary to reduce the swollen late year '04 inventory.

jontyrees

Ah yes, the market is a strange beast. In the UK and it's native Oz, the GTO sells like hot cakes at a MUCH higher price, but here people have an expectation that a Pontiac should be a cheap to mid-priced car. Makes no sense to me - I just took advantage of the situation.

It's all in consumer perception - how else could anyone explain folks paying a premium for
WRXs with Saab badges on them - but that's for another forum.

bottgers

....is that they price themselves right out of the market. You can't offer vehicles with Yugo build quality at Lexus prices and still expect people to stand in line to buy them.

hammen2

If you've checked out a GTO, you'd see that the interior design and the overall build quality is the among the best (if not the best) of any modern GM car - and very comparable to, and arguably better than, some cars in its class (including imports)...

coolhandluke

The fit and finish of my GTO is great. Passengers often have commented on the interior finish and ride. Surprisingly, I have been given wonderful comments from owners of more expensive European models, "Refined" was the word most oftenly used.
They were shocked by the HP/TQ stats and sticker price. Most would have to pay twice as much for the same performance in a coupe of this size.

hammen2

I will state up front that I know that this is not a totally valid comparison, but look at the specs on the 645:

http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/6/645CiCoupe

Compare and contrast with the GTO:

http://www.pontiac.com/gto/

Things like size, weight, et. al. are very comparable. The GTO has better straight-line performance (more HP and torque) - don't know about skidpad numbers.

Sure there's tons of features standard and optional on the 6-series that you can't and won't get on the GTO. And you get the BMW "cachet" that you don't get with any Pontiac. But the GTO is half the price, has great performance and interior... and I can actually afford one.

The GTO is a lot closer to the BMW than the Firebird/TA ever were...

graphicguy

The question was posed whether there was anything else in the price range that could compete with the GTO. Fair question. Putting aside all the build quality arguments (as I think any car made today, from any manufacturer has good build quality compared to anything for sale even 5 years ago).

So, you have a big V8.

Using that as a criteria, you've got the new Mustang GT at around $25K. Performance is similar (no, not exactly the same, but similar). Arguably, the Mustang has a better "look".

So, the Mustang GT is cheaper.

If you want to move into the over $30K category, you get into the Infiniti G35c, the 350Z, RX8 category. Each of them offer a different combination of performance/luxury/sports car attributes. Without dissecting the differences, they all have appeal. Again, similar (not the same) performance to the GTO. Most will offer a better equipment level at the same or lower cost.

Then entres, in the same price category, tne new 325i and the new Audi A4s. Totally redone. A step down in straight line performance, but a step up in handling and sophistication.

This is not, in any way a slam of the GTO. Just answering the question. At $30K+, it doesn't seem like the GTO had many takers. With incentives, the '04 GTO had plenty of takers, but that was at a price point similar to where the Mustang GT is at MSRP.

hammen2

I went to Ford's web site and configured a Mustang GT to be comparable to the GTO, feature-wise. Came to around $28,500. So, the price difference is not as dramatic as it would first appear. I think you will see incentives on the '05 GTOs a lot sooner than last year (they did nothing until July), and this will make the price comparisons a little closer. And it will make the GTO an even better buy when compared against the 350z/G35/RX8...

midwesttrader

GMAC financing available right now in the South Central Region where I live: 0%/3yrs, 2.9%/4yrs, 3.9%/5yrs. No cash yet. If you can get a sale price between invoice and msrp with those rates, you're way ahead of where things were last year at this time.

I'm waiting until they get nervous about moving the '05s and hope to get GMS + cash + financing. We'll have to see how things play out.

skeezix

If you're implying that the GTO has Yugo build quality, then you haven't looked at them. That is a ridiculous statement.

graphicguy

I think even the '05 GTO is going to need every bit of the incentives they had towards the end of last year. Pricing out a Mustang GT with 5 speed, side airbags, red seats, aluminum trim, active alarm brings the price to $27,700 or there abouts.

'05 GTO with a 6-speed will be $33,700 or there abouts. That $6,000 delta is substantial in my book.

If GM slaps on a $5K rebate, they may get some takers. Maybe even from me. I'm not a buyer at $30K, though. I'm not even a buyer at $28K. Get it down to $27K or so, and I'll give it a look.

bottgers

How well built a vehicle is can't be determined by evaluting the vehicle when it's new. Bring it back with 100K miles and if it's still tight, squeek and rattle-free, and interior and exterior trim panels aren't falling off, then then you can say the build quality is improved over previous GM offerings. Honda and Toyota have been building vehicles for years that pass this test.

hammen2

Bottgers, do me a favor. Sometime in the next week, go to your nearest Pontiac dealership and sit in a GTO. Then, come back here and tell me that it's not one of the best-built (i.e. panel assembly, interior design and quality) cars that GM has ever made. Do you know that the car is made in Australia by Holden? Do you know that, according to Aussie Holden enthusiast websites, the Monaro/Commodore DO tend to go large number of kilometers without squeaks or rattles, in a much harsher environment (temperature/dust/roads) than just about anywhere in the continental U.S.? Holdens are also exported to the Middle East, where conditions are probably even more challenging.

This is not GM same old same old (hence my comment about this car NOT being another Firebird/TA/Camaro). I know of someone with 24k miles on their '04 GTO in just a little over a year - no issues. That's very promising.

And, even inside GM, there are good cars. My '98 Aurora (black w/black interior, been through hot summers and cold winters) has no rattles either, no body panels falling off, et. al.

I will again reiterate what Motor Trend said in their review, and what a number of people have tried to get across to others decrying the build quality of the GTO:

"Surprise #4: Fit and finish are the finest we've seen on a GM vehicle in decades. The body emits not a squeak and shimmies not a whit, parts gaps are tight and uniform, the interior shapes flow smoothly into one another, and the materials are rich and handsome."

sputterguy

thank you, thank you, thank you.

coreseller

Ditto, 6500 miles in 7 weeks, no problems. 1996 Impala SS, over 200k when sold (I got $10k for it!) and it was still solid, it went through a fuel pump, water pump and PS pump, that's it. 2000 Maxima SE 5 spd. blew the trans. (bad input shaft bearing) at 82k but gave me almost 200k otherwise trouble free miles. I fully expect 200k miles out of this car, the billet-like solidness of the GTO reminds me of my boss's BMW 540i, just without the ridiculous repair bills. Now I understand how the Germans can afford 9 weeks vacation

sputterguy

It has to get 20 or 21mpg average between city and highway mpg to avoid the tax. Yes, a 5 speed automatic would eliminate the tax. But, instead of adding a 5 speed auto, they bumped the hp to 400 and now the tax is even higher. Look for the 5 speed in the next iteration in '07. Just another example of a missed opportunity by the GTO enineering dept. But then, the guys who do buy the '05 will probably think it is a reasonable tradeoff for 400hp.

sputterguy

Thank you also jontyrees. The GTO is a lot of car for the money. Glad you got a good deal. Enjoy it like the rest of us. Except of course, Hammen. By the way Robert, I hope you thoroughly checked out your new GTO before taking it home.

coolhandluke

My take on the competition:

I tested the Mustang, G35c, BMW, 350Z, RX8 and several others before I made my purchase.

The Mustang while priced lower does nearly approach 30k when fully optioned. It looks great from a distance. Once closer, the sheet metal even looks skimped on. The interior doesn't do justice to all the hype either. The stereo rocks though.

The 350Z has it's own problems with owners often complaining. Too small of an interior for me. I'm only 5' 7".

G35c, Great car. bigger than the 350z . The local dealers want a premium price for these. I at first really wanted one, until the salesman actually snubbed me. I don't do business with these kind of people.

BMW, Another great car. EXCEPT you have to really pony up the money past $40k to have a car worth the $30k hype. Again the dealership was snobbish.

I also tried VW, Acura and MB. I will look again at all these cars when I'm ready to make my next purchase.

If you like the Mustang better by all means go purchase one. Or something else if you wish.

The GTO is a large, powerful, well built coupe. If you desire something smaller, less powerful, or of a higher or lower quality go purchase another make.

To everyone else who has commented:

It doesn't make sense in this forum to make assumptions if you haven't driven one, or every other model that you compare it too.

Just my 2 cents

bottgers

I hope you're right. It would be refreshing for GM to actually start building vehicles at a level of build quality we haven't seen in decades, or maybe ever. It's sad that we haven't been able to rely on American cars for years and that we've had to look to other countries for reliable vehicles. The real winners here are us. When products get better from one company, it forces other companies to also produce better products, and the consumer reaps all the benefits! I will have to test drive a Goat and really get a good look.

graphicguy

Since you guys are all over me about my GTO perceptions, I went to the local Pontiac dealer yesterday and drove an '05 (blue) version. MSRP was north of $33K. They said they'd GMS it for me since I qualified. That brings the price down to just under $30K for me.

Again, it's a fine car. 2nd gear engagement was a "hinky", but it feels about the same as the last '04 test drive I did. The brake feel was still "spongy". It still feels "heavy" (but so does the 350Z). Of course, I'm coming from a dearly departed and missed RX8. That's one of the best "handling" cars I've ever driven.

Hood scoops aren't really functional. All they do is allow more air into the engine bay....no forced air type of functionality. They are more for "looks" than anything else.

Body style still leaves me "ho-hum" on the GTO, but that's subjective. It still looks like a bloated Grand Prix, IMHO!

What I liked about it was it's ride. Aside from the 2nd gear engagement, the shifter felt good. I really liked the seats. IT just could be my body type, but they fit me well.

Seat of the pants feel tells me it's about the same, performance wise, to the Mustang GT. The ride in the Mustang is similar. Shiter in the Mustang feels more positive.

Build quality is better than most of GM's fare, but it's on par with what I experienced in the Mustang. Both are good...and truly, about the same as my RX8 (which I thought was very good).

It really comes down to which style I like better and the proverbial price issue. For me, it's the Mustang, if I had to choose between the two. I can't get that heavy "feeling" out of my head that the GTO had. Some may like that feeling, though. Also, price comes into play. I can buy a Mustang GT, all loaded up with 6-speed, aluminum dash, great stereo, leather, power everything, etc, etc.

I can buy the Mustang under X plan (friends and family of Ford employees) for ~$25,500....MSRP is $27,700. That's still $4K more than the GTO's actual purchase price and a $6K difference in MSRP's, equipment level being the same. To me, it's still a substantial price difference. Slap a $5K rebate on the GTO and I'll consider it. If that happens any time soon, I'll get more serious about doing a compare and contrast between it and the Mustang GT and might put it on my shopping list.

graphicguy

coolhandluke....I've test driven the 350Z, the G35c, Acura TL and the BMW 325i.

I will agree with you about the 3 series Bimmer. You start adding options and the price balloons perilously close to $40K (which is perilously close to the new Corvette).

They made the Acura TL FWD. For someone who enjoys the performance advantages of RWD, that was a critical mistake. Driven sedately, the TL does well. You ask it to exploit some of the engine's potential and you're faced with having the steering wheel jerked out of your hands. That's unacceptable to me.

350Z (and even moreso, the G35c) feel to heavy.

That said, I'd take the GTO over the Z or G any day for no other reason than the GTOs 6.0 engine (and that's saying something since the 3.5 Nissan V6 is a dandy).

bottgers

What's up with the GMS and GMO pricing? It doesn't seem to be commensurate with vehicle prices anymore. $3K-$4k off the sticker price of $33K or more is nothing. Buyers who don't qualify for GMO or GMS pricing can get a better deal than that just through rebates, incentives and good ol' barganing. GMO or GMS discounts should knock $8K-$10K off the price of a vehicle this expensive.

hammen2

GMS pricing = GM employee pricing. There used to be GMS and GMO. GMS referred to buying a car out of Stock - you got a better deal if you went GMO and Ordered a car. Then, there's GM Supplier (which is NOT GMS), also the same is GM in the Driveway, which is GMS + 4.5%. There is no more GMO.

The discount used to be more... as incentives have increased, it's diminshed to between 7 and 9 percent off the car's MSRP. This is usually under invoice pricing. Don't forget, you usually end up with the same rebates/discounts and/or loan incentives as normal customers. So, except for rare instances, it's unlikely that non-GMS buyers can get lower pricing than GMS/employee pricing.

--Robert

coolhandluke

My GTO's shifter is stiff first starting out. Once a few miles have past, the shifter becomes smooth and lightning swift. I believe it just needs to warm up. Some people may have same problem? I want to install a stop on my clutch pedal to prevent over travel, for even faster engagement/ disengagement.

Has anyone had experience with installing long tube headers? What brands are at the top of the list .

Thanks in advance.

hammen2

Yep, the shifter problem is common. If your shifter is rattling, take the car to your dealer and have them get the revised shifter (need to call the Tech Line if they're not familiar with this).

Regarding LT headers, commonly-installed ones are from Kooks and Stainless Works...

coolhandluke

It doesn't seem to rattle at all. I believe there was a VIN break that mine comes after. after 3 or 4 miles it slides wonderfully through the pattern.

Where again can I view the whole tsb list?

Thanks

graphicguy

Bottgers....GMO/GMS on an '05 GTO is from MSRP. There are no incentives at all on it.

Now, if someone wanted to buy a leftover '04, then there is $5K of incentives on it. Subtract about another $3K for GMS/GMO and you've got your $8K off MSRP. They may even qualify for a GM "loyalty" rebate of $1,000-$1,500, but I haven't checked on that yet.

The dealer I went to test drive the '05 had 2 '04s left but they were both automatics, which I don't want. Dealer said they'd look around for an '04 with a 6-speed but didn't hold out much hope of finding one in the colors I wanted.

At $25K or thereabouts, I'll strongly consider a GTO. As I said, I think it's a fine car. But, at $30K, it's not on my short list.

One concern would be the fact that towards the end of last year, you could buy a GTO at $25K with incentives. That can't bode well for anyone interested in an '05 selling at $30K+.

If GM slaps a $5K rebate on the '05, added to the GMO/GMS discount, it's a serious contender as I look for a car.

A 400 HP car for the price of a V6 Accord would be mighty tempting.

While I don't expect sterling MPG numbers from a muscle car, and the price of gas usually doesn't come into play for me, the Mustang GT runs on regular, while the GTO demands premium. Just something to think about.

coolhandluke

After referring to my owners manual section 5.5 and confirming through Pontiac customer service. My GTO doesn't "Demand" premium fuel. Even though I willingly fill up with the good stuff. It will make it's best engine outputs while using premium fuel but will run happily with no worries about engine damage with 87 octane or above.

I cruised around my town and a neighboring community for nearly five hours totalling a little over 220 miles and only used 10 gallons of fuel. Not bad for combined driving. I get about 17 MPG in the city no matter how I drive it. 27-28 MPG on the highway. With the mileage I'm getting, I don't mind purchasing premium. I hope to see some improvements in a few thousand miles when the car is "broke in".

graphicguy

I agree. No car knows what octane you pump. With today's Engine control computers, adjustments are made by computer based on the quality of gas (or octane you use).

That said, in my RX8, it never saw a drop of anything but premium since I wanted all the available power.

As long as you don't experience any pinging or hesitation, and you're pleased with the performance, use what you feel comfortable with.

On the other hand, premium grades tend to use more/better detegent additives. Long term, it may be wise to keep that in mind to avoid any sort of injector problems.

I'm curious, does your GTO manual recommend straight synthetic oil like Corvettes?

oldbob

I do know that the motor comes with mobil 1 in it.

coolhandluke

Like I said, I happily fill up with premium.

The manual says to look for oil that meets GM 6094M standards. section 5-13 and 6-11. SAE 5-30. I haven't seen any mention of the use of Synthetic oil. Doesn't mean it's not in the manual somewhere.

I use synthetic oil in all my other cars though, and I will continue to do so with the GTO.

OBTW I probably missed it in an earlier post. What happened to the RX8?

hammen2

I don't know about the '05's, but '04's did not come from the factory with Mobil 1. I switched on the first oil change with both of my cars (well, on the second, it got a Mobil 1 change right before it went into storage :-)

--Robert

graphicguy

coolhandluke....my beloved RX8 was met with an untimely demise at the hands of a "run-in" with a Dodge Ram (rear ended with an estimated impact of 40 MPH), which in turn, shoved me into an Accord in front of me.

I just settled with the insurance company, so I have a check in hand.

I was looking at a new C6 'vette, but since the accident, am shying away from a fiberglass bodied car. That's not an indictment of the 'vette, as it may be a safe car. There is just scant crash data on them.

While the RX8 protected me well, I'm now on the lookout for something with a steel body.

I'm trying to whittle down my choices to a short list.

I'm helping my sister to buy an '05 Mustang, so I've driven those a couple of times. Ford did a great job with it. So, that's made it to my shortlist. It's tough to get one without ordering if you have a specific color you want (which I would).

I was impressed enough with the test drive of the 05 GTO, that it's still on my list, for no other reason than the 400 HP motor (which is a significant "bump" by my bottometer over the '04 and the very nice seats).

The downside there is I can't get one for the my price target ($25Kish-$27Kish).

While not significant, I do think the new hood makes the GTO look better.

I didn't look at the trunk. How small is it? I've heard it's teeny. What can you fit in it?

350Z can't compete performance wise with either the Mustang GT nor the GTO. Plus, both the GTO and the Mustang have better interiors.

I'm going to look at the new Audi A4 and the new BMW 3 or Z series. My fear, particularly with the BMW, is that to get what I want, I'm pushing $40K.

I have to make a decision soon since the insurance company wants me to return their rental car.

zinger

How do you figure the Z cannot compete with them?

0-60 in 5.6 and will out handle/brake both of them.

I am just curious because I have been shopping the GTO and Z. Trust me the Z handles quite well and the V6 is pretty darn quick.

They have improved the pedals on the 05 GTO M6 by giving some space between the sidewall and the clutch which is a plus.

midwesttrader

As you probably know the Monaro gas tank had to be relocated to meet US crash standards and the result is a rather small trunk. Here's the cargo capacity for the vehicles you mentioned:
GTO 7 cu ft
350Z 7 cu ft
G35 7.8 cu ft
BMW 3 11 cu ft
Mustang 12.3 cu ft
Audi A4 13 cu ft

graphicguy

Zinger....I spent quite a bit of seat time in both the 350z and the G35C.

In short, don't run for titles of a 350Z or G35c against an '05 Mustang GT or an '05 GTO.

The Z's suspension does indeed have very high capabilities, but to wring out that performance, the ride penalty is very high and you have to work very hard to realize it.

Ride in either the Mustang GT or the GTO are much better than the Z without sacrificing thier handling attributes. In fairness, the GTO feels heavy as does the 350Z and G 35c.

If speed is your primary ingredient, both the Mustang GT (by a healthy .5 seconds) and the GTO (by nearly 1 second) will handily beat both the Z and G.

Equip the 350Z or the G35c like the Mustang GT Permium or the GTO and you're looking at a 350Z touring at areound $34K.....the G35c around $35K.

I've never been a fan of either the Z's or G's interior, but that's just my opinion.