Pontiac GTO

easternspeed

What kit is tis and where did you get it? I love the wheel flares.

easternspeed

I'm running 11.29 w/ stock bottom end and heads using a 75 shot out of the hole w/ MT Street ET's. Nailing 1.6's in the 60'.

easternspeed

I'm laying 456hp & 598ft/lbs of torque to the rear & love to use it. Stock bottom end and heads (except springs) and not even spraying my 180 direct port.

hammen2

Regarding the stiff ride, so many dealers don't follow the inspection and lower the tire pressure from 60 psi down to 32-35 (where it's supposed to be). I had my car for nearly a week before I figured this out. So I wonder if that's why the ride felt so stiff to you (unless you were coming from a Caddy :-)

 

Agree with you on the weight, though it could also be the torque management on the A4 car which makes it seem a bit sluggish.

 

The 18" wheels and tires are summer-only and a $495 option, not free (not sure if GM has put a price in their system yet, as it won't be orderable this way until March/delivering in May - this from a GM insider on another discussion board).

 

Right now there are no incentives (other than lower finance rates on 48 and 60 month loans), through the end of March. Lots of folks who wanted the '05 bought right away in January due to the $1500 GM loyalty cash on the hood - we'll see if they continue to buy with no incentives. If yes, then you won't see 'em on the car. If no, then they'll have to offer them. My guess is you'll see some rebates ($1000-$3000), but nothing near the level of discounting on the '04's.

 

Remember, they're only building 12,000 2005's, but this has more to do with the change of model year (they'll stop building '05's in June, so the '06s can be here in the normal September new-car time - unlike the '04s, which were still being built in October/arriving at dealers in December).

 

The 2006 car will not have major external appearance changes (per the same GM insider). Wondering what they'll do to keep interest high in that lame-duck model until the US-built Zeta arrives for MY2007? LS7, perhaps? 6-speed auto? Judge option?

 

--Robert

coreseller

I've had my 2004 GTO for 5 to 6 weeks now and love it. I've got almost 5k miles on it (company car; salesman) and I have a couple of issues; it's hard to get into reverse (6 speed) and a terrible case of the touch-up paint not matching. When I try to get it into reverse, especially when cold, I often have to choose a forward gear first then try reverse and before it goes in. I park it in my driveway on a slightly downward slope and put it into reverse before setting the parking brake, could this be part of it? I have also experienced this problem on level ground after the car has been ran a bit but it isn't often. Also, my car has a paint code of F143 which is Torrid Red. Unfortunately I've already gotten a couple of minor paint chips in the hood and tried to touch them up with the paint I bought from the dealer (it says Torrid Red on the bottle) and it seems to be much darker than the factory finish. Has anyone else had these problems? Thanks.....Mark.

hammen2

Others on another discussion board have reported the same "can't get into reverse" issue. Lots of folks have made it custom to put the car into 3rd and then shift into reverse. Others have switched to Redline D4 tranny fluid. Some others have found there's a TSB (04-07-31-003) on pressure plate bolts (cars with VINs lower than 4L234149) which helps the problem. And some say there's a new-design shifter (to avoid rattles) for the '05's, which also works on the '04's.

 

Also, by any chance, did your dealer give you Pulse Red touchup paint? That's a little darker and a little more pearlescent red (used on the last 792 GTO's produced - was supposed to be a special 40th Anniversary GTO package, but Pontiac canned that).

 

Here's the paint codes for what you should have:

 

PONTIAC WA687F , 62 BASECOAT RED HOT (Torrid Red) 2004-2005

PONTIAC WA687F , 62 SINGLE STAGE RED HOT (Torrid Red) 2004 - 2005

 

Hope this helps,

 

--Robert

coreseller

Thanks for the reply Robert. My VIN is higher than what you posted (6/04 build date) so I guess the TSB wouldn't apply. I might try the redline fluid after I get some more miles on the car hoping it may free up a little. I checked the touch up bottle and is marked Torrid Red with the WA687F code you mentioned. I'll run the car by the dealership and talk to the parts guys about the paint, they've been pretty good to deal with. I also have a Mustang Cobra and put an aftermarket (Pro 5.0) shifter in it, what a difference it made vs. the stock shifter! A monkey couldn't miss a gear with that shifter, maybe I'll consider one for the GTO. Thanks again for the help.....Mark.

hammen2

Lots of folks swear by the GMMotorsports RipShift (they're pretty popular in Oz). It's a little pricey, however, at $400+. B&M has a shifter coming out sometime in March, and Hurst is also working on a replacement shifter for the GTO, so help is on the way...

 

--Robert

coreseller

I've already seen the B & M and Hurst shifters on different web sites for $225 plus s & h. Given a little more time and competition there will be a better selection and better prices on all aftermarket GTO parts. I paid around $125 for the Mustang shifter, the Pro 5.0 was also the premiere shifter available about a year ago when I bought it. $400 is just plain too much, I'll wait a bit. Thanks again.....Mark.

dat2

Saw the last part of the review on tv today, not sure when they said the GTO is a little out of the element on the track, is it mainly because of the smoking tires or the moderate body roll and 3725 lbs? Maybe all those make it a little out of element. Seems they should have gotten better than a couple tenths better times out of the LS2, although they mentioned the LS2 is "much more willing" than the LS1 GTO. ANyway, that was an interesting review. Would like to see the footage of the goat at the track in Savannah...

dat2

I just got a new shifter installed at the dealer the other day, due to excessive buzz. Do you think they installed the new version? Anything else I ought to have them do? I am moving to DC in a couple weeks, and I have an excellent service shop at the local dealer here.

graphicguy

sputterguy....ummmm....where did you get your information regarding Australian built GM cars are somehow built better than those made in North America? What leads you to believe there's somehow a different standard in the land down under over anything built by GM anywhere else?

 

GM employs the same build techniques throughout the world at all of thier plants. Many of the General's parts and components are sourced from different areas throughout the world for all of thier cars (with maybe the exception of the Corvette).

 

Don't get me wrong....I'm all for GM making the GTO one of it's Pontiac staples, but to say there's any difference between those built in plants in North America or Australia has no basis in fact.

 

I do think that the gap has closed dramatically in what's produced in North America and what's produced in other parts of the world (Honda, Toyota, BMW, Nissan, etc are all building/designing popular models here in the U.S.) to the point where country of origin shouldn't be a factor.

 

Even Hyundai is making well-built, reliable and durable cars.

 

I think the biggest downfall of the GTO, aside from styling, is the fact that it is based on an aging GM Australian platform.

 

I would have hoped that the '05 GTO's performance would have been much better than what MotorWeek tested. As it is, even with the new engine, the GTO performs almost exactly the same as the new Mustang GT.

 

Having driven both, I'd give the nod to the Mustang GT for style, handling plus it will match the GTO for 0-60 and the 1/4 mile. Ford seems to have done an outstanding job with the engineering and build of the new Mustang, to boot (certainly better than the the Mustang it replaces).

 

Having said all that, the U.S. based car companies make the best V8 engines in the world, in my humble estimation.

hammen2

The Elizabeth Holden plant got a lot of the same GM Production System upgrades that new plants like the Lansing Grand River facility that makes the CTS, SRX, and new STS.

 

If you've sat in a GTO, you'd see the interior design and build quality surpasses just about everything else GM makes except for the latter two Caddies. The build quality (panel gaps/seams) of the car is excellent, far better than just about anything else GM makes (and this coming from a guy whose first GTO had a problem and had to be exchanged by GM - though, to be honest, my GTO had one major flaw, and the local dealership caused/created numerous other problems fixing that flaw).

 

As to performance, I find the numbers posted by MotorWeek to be ludicrous. I've seen, on another discussion board, the exact procedures that GM uses to certify their 13.0 second quarter mile runs on the '05's - don't know who was driving MotorWeek's car, but this is not what people are seeing in the real-world on the track with '05's.

 

Magazines post numbers, and I swear these are influenced by advertising dollars. Take two stock cars, the same driver, in the same atmospheric/track conditions, and the '05 Mustang will lose, both in the 1/4 and top speed, to not only the '05 GTO, but also the '04. The Mustang is geared more for stoplight racing (0-60) but, at the top end (above 90 mph), the LS1/LS2 will really pull on the car.

 

Which car you buy is your personal preference. Not everyone races/takes the car to the track. I am not a Ford fan, not a retro fan, and think the Mustang interior is ugly. Not to mention I wouldn't dream of putting an adult into the back seats of a Mustang. But, if you choose one, great.

 

I do agree that the GTO's legacy Holden/Opel chassis is its weak spot, along with styling that not everyone likes. This will change in 2007 with the Zeta-based GTO's made at the Hamtramck plant (also due some major redesigns to fully implement GMPS). Everyone criticizes GM for putting the car out mostly unchanged from the Monaro - well, would you rather they didn't, and wait to have an affordable Pontiac RWD sports coupe until 2007? Stopgap or no, the GTO is a very nice car, and I'm happy they did bring it over - I bought one! And I suspect most of the others who did are happy as well.

 

--Robert

hammen2

http://www.ai-online.com/issues/article_detail.asp?id=28

 

This article is a little old (between the time the GTO was announced, but before it had started assembly), but it's a good overview of the plant and some of the production systems/challenges.

texas_ford_guy

GM, legendary for its quality has successfully implemented it's build techniques in australia?....glad i bought the freekin mustang.

hammen2

...which is based upon the Toyota Production System. The assembly plant (Lansing Grand River) that fully uses this system, is the #1 assembly plant in North & South America for initial quality (and #3 in the world). Might be time to change your perceptions.

 

Good luck with your Mustang...

sakinosh

I KNOW I want the new '05 GTO, but I have a couple concerns. Does anyone know if the fuel tank location behind the seats poses a hazard in the instance of a rear collision (a la Pinto)?

 

Also, I'd LOVE to put a 10" sub/box in the back with an amp - but would the fuel tank location pose a problem for that as far as sound quality goes? Needless to say that I'll only have enough room for an 18 pack of beer

 

Test drove the '05 this weekend...WOW...just wow!

hammen2

The gas tank was relocated to prevent just a Pinto-like conflagration (in Oz, the fuel tank is between the rear axle and bumper cover - of course, they don't have major problems with flaming rear-end crashes, but GM did not want to open up that can of worms). If you ever took the trunk liner off you'd see the huge, heavy steel frame that wraps around the tank - I think it's pretty safe.

 

I know there are folks with custom speaker setups in the trunks of their GTO's, but I can't answer how the fuel tank effects the sound. I think most folks do remove the trunk liner from around the tank... some even pull their spare and put the speaker box in the well... whatever floats your boat...

 

--Robert

jpstax1

Thanks for the link. Too bad Edmunds hasn't even done a first drive on the '05 GTO yet. I sent their staff an e-mail (clicked on feedback) about that very subject. Someone replied that they didn't have any plans to do a first drive until as early as March or April of this year. Meanwhile, we'll just have to rely on other reviews.

graphicguy

I think it's good to see the Ford Blue Oval and GM duing it out again in the car wars. While one would have hoped it would have been the Camaro/Firebird vs the Mustang....the GTO will work just as well.

 

My 2nd car is a Vibe. I did get a very brief test drive in a GTO while waiting for my Vibe to be prepped for delivery. It is an impressive car. But, I can't say that I noticed anything in the way of better/worse panel gaps or build quality over any other car I've seen in the past couple of years. Build quality has improved steadily over the years to the point where I don't think Toyota, Honda or even Mercedes has a siginificant advantage over the likes of GM, Chrysler or Ford. Maybe a Lexus is somewhat better?

 

You're right, though....the styling is a "miss" from my perspective.

 

I've also had the chance to drive a Mustang GT. I originally saw what eventually became the '05 Mustang at the Detroit auto show two years ago. While you can see the nod it gives to Mustangs of the past, it is a thoroughly modern iteration of Mustang. I can see the what all the hoopla is all about and apparently, at least the GT version, is and will be in short supply for quite some time.

 

I used to be a bracket racer. I don't do that anymore, but am still a fan. While I can see the appeal of a couple of tenths being worth something on the track, in real world driving, those numbers mean nothing. It's also clear that in the marketplace, the new Mustang is a win, whereas the GTO is a disappointment.

 

My hope is that the GTO continues to evolve. I think it will be fun to see Ford and GM duke it out once again. GM has to understand, the gauntlet has been laid. The price point of the Mustang GT is right around $25K. The GTO will have to go through a redesign, all the while lowering the price point in order to get into the fight.

 

For one, I hope it will spur on a fight between these two behemoths in the marketplace once again. The winners will be the consumers. That said, I don't believe GM will have much more luck with the '05 iteration of the GTO....particularly in the $30K marketplace when their competition is sitting at $25K. I'd wait and see if GM fires off another round of huge rebates to spur '05 GTO sales on. Even with the bigger engine, there isn't enough of a performance difference to make up the price disparity between the Mustang GT and the GTO (if there's any noticeable difference, at all).

 

Can't remember which trade rag I read, but they stated that even with a 100HP disadvantage, the Mustang GT was still the better car over the GTO because the performance was almost identical, but the Mustang was better in almost every other category.

 

Just so no one thinks I'm a shill for the Mustang, I own and RX8 with a "puny" 238 HP rotary powering it.

jpstax1

I agree that Pontiac will just have to find a way to reduce the cost of their GTO in order to compete with Ford's Mustang. I can understand why a GTO costs more than a Mustang (great engine and tranny, leather seats, higher destination charges, etc.). But why not use cheaper parts and offer the pricier ones as options? The Camaro and Firebird were able to stay competitive that way.

corkfish

Is the $30K price tag that accurate? I've seen posts here from guys who bought them for as low as $20K with rebates and credit card round up. Even without the round up, it doesn't look like it's been to difficult to buy these in the mid to upper $20's.

rorr

Those kind of prices were on the '04s. AFAIK, the misc. rebates/credit card round ups/etc. are over. The $30k figure being tossed around is for the '05s. I'm a bit curious to see what kind of deals (if any) buyers are getting on the '05s.

graphicguy

The dealers on the GTO when it was first introduced weren't moving from MSRP....some added an additional sticker. To me, this is never a good idea for the long term for any dealer who whished to build a large customer base, but they still do it.

 

Only after it became clear that the GTOs weren't moving after a few months did the discounting begin. Towards the end of last year, the rebates got pretty big to move out inventory. GM, in one form or another, has had hidden rebates for those who use the GM credit cards.....the more you charge on the card, the more money GM gives you to buy one of their vehicles. Adding to that, there was some sort of GM loyalty rebate towards the end of last year, too.

 

None of those are in effect now (with the possible exception of the loyalty rebate).

 

Since Pontiac has priced the GTO so high to begin with ($30k+), I still think they're going to have to do some major price reductions to sell even the '05 GTOs.

 

Those buying the first new ones won't get much of a price break, though.

sakinosh

It's funny to me to see all of the "vanilla" talk with regards to the GTO. Car styling is strictly a subjective manner - whatever style someone likes is what they like. I personally really like the styling on the new Goat. It's simple, smooth lines, low stance, not too angular. But I can also see why someone would love the new Mustangs.

 

But most of the people who are talking about the new Mustangs are the big baby boomers - hence the retro look. I know a few people who didn't like the fact that the new GTO looked like it does - but I'd buy the car even if it was called a Pontiac Monaro.

I think the MotorWeek road test article put it best when describing the new look of the GTO: "There's something to be said for a little subtlety in this world of megaphone exhaust tips and wild wings... The stance is low and muscular, not bulging at the seams like a weightlifter, but rather a powerful track runner in street clothes. You can sense the power is there, it's just not on display for everyone to see" Yeah, except for when you dust them at the stoplight!

sakinosh

Recently went to 2 different local dealerships to check on prices. One had a $5k mark-up, the other did not. Also, one salesman said they had already sold 8 only a week after their shipment - but the 2 sitting there had been there for awhile so I think he was just trying to bs me to increase the "gotta have it" factor. The other dealership only has one red GTO, it's been there going on 2 weeks now. I don't think these are moving any faster than the '04's were. I can't wait for the incentives to start!

 

$30k+ for this car is too much. My only gripe is that I wish this car would go on a diet - both for weight and for price... Trunk space is garbage too.

kevm14

But why not use cheaper parts and offer the pricier ones as options? The Camaro and Firebird were able to stay competitive that way.

 

I don't think copying anything from the F-Body would be wise for GM (if they're trying to improve sales). And this is coming from an owner of a 95 Z28, in case you think I'm ragging on F-Bodies.

dat2

Hate to look at more mag articles, but the C&D cover feature of the 05 gto vs. the new mustang gt gave the performance nod to the gto in all categories. it was only in the subjective categories such as "gotta have it" that the mustang one...by one point. anyway, it is obvious the mustang will be a success in the market, while pontiac is only pushing 12k gtos per year.

coreseller

I can see where alot of folks and car rags would compare the GTO to the new Mustang but are they really meant to be in the same market segment? Yep they're rwd V8 2 door sport coupes but go to your average Mustang web site and look at the average age of the buyer. I beleive the GTO will draw older guys verses the Mustang. As to the $30k price and $25k price that ratio is probably not far off the difference between the price of the cars in the late 60's. When GM comes out with a new Camaro/Firebird that's when the real battle will begin.

brushbandit

Im looking at an 04 GTO auto. and a comporably equipped Mustang GT auto. The Mustang is at about 30K and they won't move off the sticker. The GTO is 24.5K. Both nice cars. The Mustang is probably nicer but for the money it's hard not to buy the GTO.

graphicguy

That's kind of an unfair comparison with an '04 GTO vs an '05 Mustang. The most obvious difference is they are two different model years. Although the GTO is technically new, it's last year's model, whereas the Mustang is this year's model. As soon as you drive that GTO off the lot, That car will be considered a year old, already. As long as that's OK, I'd get the GTO with the understanding you'll take a hit come resale time because it will be considered a 1 model year removed from the Mustang. You'd have to hit every option box on the Mustang to get it to $30K. Better yet, get the '05 Mustang GT convertible for about the same price.

brushbandit

Your points are good. Comporably equipped the Mustang needs leather, interior upgrade and I'm shopping auto trans(my wife will be the primary driver)Those options and a few odds and ends on the sticker put the Mustang real close to 30K. I agree the Mustang will have better resale. On the downside the reasonable dealers are selling at sticker price now. That won't be the case when supply gets better so that puts the Mustang in the hole a bit as far as depreciation.

midwesttrader

"I beleive the GTO will draw older guys verses the Mustang."

 

We've been talking about target market on this board for 2 years now. The problem GM has is that the "older guys" have a disconnect with the current car compared to what they remember from the day. Many of them lean towards retro and this car ain't it. Add that to the dealer price gouging, spotty availability and a winter launch and you've got slow sales.

 

Lutz has pushed this car from the beginning as targeted toward the high performance luxury coupe segment (see BMW) and not the pony car crowd (see Mustang). The problem with that is while the GTO has the powertrain to compete, it does not have the content like a sunroof, navigation, climate control, etc., that other cars do at that price point.

 

The American market does not seem willing to pay $30K or more for a Pontiac, LS2 or not. At $25K they'll move plenty of them, just like last year.

hammen2

IIRC even at $30k the Mustang still has a solid rear end versus the GTO's IRS... OK on the dragstrip, not so OK on the curves. And again, if you need to put adults in the back seat, you can do this in a GTO (although backseat access isn't the easiest), but it's not really feasible in a Mustang. I'm sure there are other areas where the Mustang is favored over the GTO, but I frankly haven't researched them, since I needed to be able to seat 4 adults, and I'm not a Ford fan.

 

IMHO, other than the big American V8s underhood, the GTO and Mustang are appealing to two different groups of people. The GTO is more of a European lux-sports coupe (don't laugh, there are some who have ditched their BMW's for GTOs), whereas the Mustang is more American, retro. I personally am a fan of curves over angles, and that's why I like the GTO's exterior design over the Mustang. Retro proves popular for only so long (see: New Beetle, PT Cruiser, Thunderbird).

 

The original GTO was a sleeper family car with a big engine. The new GTO is a sleeper coupe with a big engine. There's a lot to be said for being low-profile (especially in the eyes of law enforcement). And it's nice to drive something fairly uncommon/unique, something there aren't hundreds of thousands on the road (not to mention rental car agencies :-)

 

I still say the GTO's build quality (panel gaps, interior design and quality materials) surpasses just about every other GM car sans some of the newer Caddies. This was certainly not the case with the F-bodies.

 

Regarding pricing, the GTO is a bit decontented (climate control, sunroof, cupholders, navigation et. al.) from its Holden and Vauxhall counterparts, but those sell at $45k-$60k USD (and sell out I might add). Getting them here at around $31k (discounted price on the '05's) is pretty amazing. I think the U.S.-built next-gen will have more options (with the current car, offering choices other than color and tranny would raise the pricing - it's always easier to keep cranking the same car w/same options off the line). I think you'll see the next-gen start at around $30k and offer some options (convertible, sunroof, heated seats, electrochromic mirror, et. al.) you can't get with the current car. Don't forget, comparably-equipped F-bodies were stickering at over $30k and those weren't nearly the level of quality and refinement the GTO is. You won't see a V-6 powered $22-$25k GTO, I guarantee that. The next-gen will have more Americanized design with a couple of Pontiac retro styling touches, but won't be nearly as retro as the Mustang.

 

Ford can crank out 150k Mustangs a year. The max number of GTO's that GM can bring here is 18k. They're only shooting for 12k this year because they made the decision to shorten the '05 model year so that they weren't still building '04's in September/October, and having them arrive in the U.S. in December. We'll see if they raise the '06 production schedule back up to $18k, or keep it short because the '07 US-built car is ready.

 

Just my 2 cents. Hope no Mustang fans think I'm bashing the car - I'm not! Just buy and enjoy driving what you like!

 

--Robert

midwesttrader

"Mustang still has a solid rear end versus the GTO's IRS... OK on the dragstrip, not so OK on the curves."

 

I've test-driven an '04 only briefly, however there are way too many comments like this one from Motorweek; "But the GTO is first and foremost a straight-line muscle car, and while it tackles this 2-mile road course gamely, it's just a bit out of its element. Body roll is moderate, and initial understeer can be quickly countered by liberal use of the throttle. However, after a few laps, the GTO's soft springs and 3765-pound curb weight start to take their toll."

 

I know it's just another car rag, one person's opinion, etc. But when potential buyers see this over and over it starts to stick, fair or not.

corkfish

I love the looks of the new Mustang, but would not cross shop it with a GTO. I'm 45 and would not be comfortable in a Mustang. I consider it a car for younger buyers. People forget that the original GTO was marketed as the excutives hot rod and that's what I like about the new one. A 50 year old could drive it without having that feeling that maybe it's not age appropriate. As long as it's got 400 horsepower, rental car styling is exactly what I'm looking for.

graphicguy

All this marketing talk bears thought, but the Mustang GT and the GTO will be cross shopped. I think the '05 Mustang will appeal to an older crowd given its design cues. It appeals to me (as a 40+ year old driver) who remembers the late 60s Mustangs.

 

PT Cruisers are still selling by the boatload and Chrysler has done a good job with regular updates to it. VW has other problems (reliability and build quality) that is affecting the sales of all its models, not just the New Beetle. The Thuderbird was a dud shortly after it was introduced. I think Ford overestimated the market for a $35K, softly sprung, luxury (not sports) car that traded more on the Thunderbird name than anything else. Plus, it was a "creaky" platform once they lopped the top off.

 

Regardless if its heritage, today's GTO looks nothing like GTOs of the past. At a quick glance, you can't tell a GTO from a Grand Prix. Mustang's styling cues can't be mistaken for anything but a Mustang.

 

Pontiac has been trying for decades to compete with the german performance cars. They've yet to come close in my estimation. I don't think you'll see many people go from the BMW or Audi store directly to the Pontiac lot and plunk down their greenbacks when they can have an A4 or 325 for about the same money. There might be some, but not many.

 

I want the GTO to succeed, believe me. Pontiac's just not going to get there with it in its current iteration.

 

GM (and Ford and Chrysler) have done a yeoman's job in increasing their quality over the last decade....to the point where I don't think it's any longer an issue.

 

Saying a GTO has better build because it's made in Australia doesn't ring true....at least, not to me.

 

All that said, I'm helping my sister buy a Mustang. And, I'll say that I've been dutifully impressed by Ford's efforts. In my demographic (one that can afford a $30K-$40K car), the Mustang "rings my bell" whereas the GTO does not.

 

If you're going to the GTO "heritage" market, you better be sure you've got something that will stir the sole of those capable of buying it. It's going to take more than just putting a big motor in a staid design. That might have worked in the '60s. It won't work today, though.

roguetrader01u

The multi-link IRS was one of the major selling points (Along with the subtle looks, LS1 beef, and quality of the interior) of the '04 M6 GTO I bought. Since I couldn't afford an M3, an S4, or an AMG 55 and wouldn't be caught dead in an Evo or a WRX my shortlist was pretty thin if I wanted to go new versus used on something rapid and with 4 seats.

I test drove the '04 Mustang GT on real roads with bumps, cracks, potholes and all. The GTO handles the real world extremely well. Drive round a everyday corner (as opposed to smooth test track) under power in a fixed rear axle car and the difference is huge.

BTW I just convinced an older friend of mine to back out of his impending Infinity coupe purchase and get into an '05 M6 GTO. All it took was the test drive and he hasn't wiped the smile off his face yet :-)

sputterguy

Mark, I have the hard to shift problem (which includes going into reverse). There is a TSB out on this problem but when I took it in to the dealer their answer is that there isn't a problem with my car. But they did torque the bolts at least. It did help a little but it is still hard to shift. Personally I think this is a sychro problem and not a shifter problem. Haven't had any paint problems so I don't know anything about that. Good luck.

sputterguy

Where did I get the information that Australian cars are better built than American cars? That comes with experience. 40 years of driving American cars. I think I just gave away my age. I should have been more specific. I should have said the GTO is built better than any American car that I know of. I still have a '98GTP which is a wonderful car and well built but from the moment I sat down in a GTO I could tell the build quality was way higher.

coreseller

Thanks for the reply sputterguy. I initially thought "dang synchros" when the problem first occured but I shudder at the thought of digging into a brand new transmission. As hammen stated the same problem has come up on other web sites and it is usually overcome by shifting into 1st or 3rd before choosing reverse. As to the Aussie vs. Yank build quality issue I gotta admit I smirked (I've done business with GM and have been inside several UAW facilities over the past 20 years) when I first read the comments. All I'll say is that this is indeed the finest GM product I've driven in terms of assembly and interior materials quality, longevity remains to be seen but I'm confident with proper service the drivetrain shouldn't be an issue.

graphicguy

The fact that the GTO has an IRS and the Mustang does not, would not be a deal killer to me. At first, I was super critical of Ford for using a solid rear axle in the '05 Mustang. If you drive one, I'll bet you'll be amazed at what Ford has done with a car with a solid rear axle.

 

Having an RX8, which is an exemplary handling machine, even I was impressed with the Mustangs rear suspension in its execution.

 

sputterguy....I had a '97 GTP. I thought it was a wonderful car, too. Put over 100K miles on it with nary a problem other than routine maintenance. Did I think the 04 build of the GTO was better? OF course! But, I was comparing the build of a car that was 7 years old vs one of recent vintage.

white6

I agree. I traded a 2004 BMW for my GTO. I drove Camaro's and Firebird's in my youth; GTO is a Firebird for grown-ups! Only two things I would change: get rid of the "wing" and give me the dual-zone auto climate control they already install in the Monaro.

hammen2

Compare the build quality of the '04-'05 GTO versus the '04 Grand Prix. Or the '04 G6. Or just about any new GM car. The only ones I see which compare are the new STS, maybe Cobalt (haven't seen one), maybe new LaCrosse (ditto).

 

Regarding build quality, here's an excerpt from Motor Trend's review of the GTO, which succintly makes the point I (and several others) are trying to:

 

"Surprise #4: Fit and finish are the finest we've seen on a GM vehicle in decades. The body emits not a squeak and shimmies not a whit, parts gaps are tight and uniform, the interior shapes flow smoothly into one another, and the materials are rich and handsome."

bottgers

My main problem with the GTO is I think it's way overpriced. Pontiac would be smart to offer the Goat in two models: the loaded model (which is basically all they have now), and a stripped version without all the expensive options that would sell for somewhere in the low 20's. IMO, Pontiac has priced the GTO right out of it's market. $30K+ is way too money for this car.

hammen2

I have it on good authority there won't be a "stripper" V6 GTO in the $20-$25k range. That will be left to the G6 coupe and convertible. Tell me how many other 400 hp cars you can get for under $33k? And you want it for $20-$25k?

 

The next-gen GTO will start under $30k and probably offer a performance model closer to $40k (think closer to 500 hp).

 

I agree that the current car, at >$30k, is a bit overpriced/missing features that are common in that price range (climate control, autodim rearview mirror, heated seats, et. al.). You'll see those things, at least as options, in the next-gen. Considering how the value of the US dollar is doing against the Aussie one (and just about all other currencies), I do not think GM makes much on this car... another reason why the next-gen will be built in the U.S...

 

--Robert

zinger

I just looked at the 05 in person. The changes look better than I thought they would. The rear end does not look as bad as in the pics. Overall it looks pretty much the same maybe a little better. I will be waiting for the discounts (hopefully they will come).

 

I was also shopping the 350Z which is a fun car and looks pretty good too. But after doing some research they seem to be having tire problems and some quality issues with rattles and squeaks in the interior in the 04s and 03s.

jae5

Have a question for those with the automatic cars. How did the ggt play into the price of the car? Meaning, this was still included in the price correct, as you can't get rid of the tax? So in essence, though you were able to use most, if not all, of the rebates offered (GM Card, owner loyalty, recent/future grad, supplier) and incentives offered, you actually paid $1K more for the car since you couldn't get rid of the ggt.

 

Also, are the '05 vehicles subject to this as well?

 

I do agree that there should be more than one model of this vehicle though, a no-frills model. Kind of like the mid-eighties, early-nineties 5.0LX and 5.0GT (hope I'm forgiven for mentioning them Mustangs). 400HP of not, this car isn't worth $32K+ (not including markup), just my opinion.

hammen2

Yes, you can't not pay the tax. It was $1000 on the '04, it's $1300 on the '05's.

 

A4 was standard, stick was a $695 option. So, the auto's MSRP was basically $305 more than than the stick ($33,190 for the '04 M6 versus $33,495 for the '04 A4).

 

--Robert

sputterguy

You have a good point there graphicguy about comparing a 2004 GTO to a '97 or '98 GTP. However, you could probably do a side by side comparison of a GTO and a new GXP down at your local dealer. I haven't done it so I don't know but I bet you could see the difference.