Pontiac GTO

brushbandit

Anyone who buys a car from any major auto manufacturer and expects it to become a collectors item is kidding themselves. That goes for motorcycles as well. A perfect example is the Mustang Bullitt. Ford deluded people into the idea it was a collecter car. With the new mustang out the value of the "bullitt" fell through the floor.
With the deep discounts the 04 GTOs are moving. I bought one 2 weeks ago in cold snowy Pa and the dealer had 4 others. I talked to him yesterday and he had one left. The car is a steal at 24.5K.IMHO, obviously because I bought one.

herzdawg007

I went to the auto show yesterday. They had two GTOs there; one was blue with sport appearance package, other was yellow standard. I must say, the appearance package looked very classy. It just made the car look more attractive and stylish. I sat in it 4 times. I couldn't get over how comfortable the seats were. Some of the nicest I've ever felt. I could definitely see an 05 GTO in my garage.

dan1

Brushbandit there are never any gaurentess that any car will be a collectible. You can gaurentee however that looking at a cars value as a collectors item that is only 4 years old is a waste of time. For something like the Mustang or Camaro or GTO you will have to wait 15 to 20 years before you can even consider it. If there is any car out of those 3 that stands a good chance if becoming a collectors item it is the 2001 Bullitt. There were only around 5548 of them ever built around 1000 were black and around 750 were True Blue the rest were Dark Highland Green and they are all specialy numbered. I personally did not buy my Bullitt as a potential collectors car, but for it's uniqueness and looks.

brushbandit

Dan1, You bought your Bullitt for the right reason, because you liked it. The Bullitt wasn't a whole lot more money than a GT so if you liked the package, which was sharp, it was a good buy. I have a friend who owns one and doesn't enjoy driving it because he envisions some collectors value. Ford offered the wheels on the GT which helped kill exclusivity and the new GT out bullitts the bullitt in every way. But as you said in twenty years who knows.

casoncase

casoncase

Why haven't you test driven and critiqued the '05? Your '04 review was timely. Was that an honest evaluation or were you just covering you rear in case the new GTO took off?

I don't want you to make a fool of yourself like MT did: like we consumers can't tell the difference in the tacky Mustang interior as compared to the GTO? Like we don't know the difference between 300HP (GT) and 400HP? You don't want to do a Dan Rather/MT on yourself. Just check the new cars out and critique them. Suppress your agenda, if you have one (political/union pressures, or whatever) and report what you think about the subject -- in this case, the '05 GTO. If you don't, you're going to go the way of CBS and Dan Rather, and you'll be off my favorites list.

Mr_Shiftright

If you'd like to pass on comments to editorial, use the "forums help" link on the upper left of this page, and contact them directly. That's the appropriate way to give feedback. It's not likely that editorial would be reading through all the forums here, so if you want to be "heard", that's the way to do it.

Host

lhess

pontiac used to be excitement, sporty good looks, young at heart, everyone wanted to be seen in a flashy pontiac. now the g6 looks like the grand prix and the gto looks like the grand am and they all look the same coming down the road... oh, that was a pontiac but i couldn't tell which one. i went to the local pontiac dealer when they got a black 6 sp gto in, went in with great anticipation and left thinking, "heck, i should just buy a honda and look like everyone else." the hps are impressive and it's fun to drive, but you want to be seen as well when you drive a car like that... pontiac is now the equivalent of BORING for me and the mechanical quality of the last one i owned was substandard for the price i paid.

gunit

I agree, anyone buying a new car expecting it to become a collectors item is crazy, as soon as you drive it off the dealers lot it can drop a couple thousand $$. even if they don't drive it and garage it all the time, it's still DEPRECIATING!! You might get lucky 20 or 30 yrs down the road, never know. I got lucky with my 1958 Chevy, never know.

Case in point, a 1989 Corvette ZR1 CONVERTIBLE very good condition, 40k orig miles is only worth about $11k Kelley Blue Book retail Value. It was $35k or $40k new?

Have already seen Crossfires used for $25k or less now.

gunit

ihess, I agree the new GTO is boring appearance wise, no standout at all. For a car like that I want it stand out. I do like the hood scoupes added for 2005. I'm considering one to replace my 2002 GTP coupe in 2007, only if styling changes. Otherwise too HONDA conservative like. Funny thing was that my father thought it was a Honda, until he saw the front end. LOL! Many people come up to me and think my 2002 GTP coupe is the new GTO, LOL! Including the dealer last year. When they saw me pull in and back in they thought it was new GTO. I do have a metal racing grille and lowered 1 inch, but still. At a car show last year I was parked next to a GTO and more people were looking at my GTP, thinking mine was the GTO, styling is much more bold.

jontyrees

lhess - different strokes for different folks. It's the stealth look that appeals to me about the 2004 - the less attention grabbing the better. I always thought Pontiacs looked idiotic with the tacked on plastic scoops, spoilers clown noses, side louvres, etc.

You definitely shouldn't let your bad experiences with Pontiac mechanical quality cloud your view of the GTO - it's not designed or built by Pontiac.

bar_xx

Perhaps the GTO is another attempt by GM to produce a car that few people wanted? Back in in the 60's when gas was .35/gal it was a great car. It had high performance with low cost and it looked good too. Now 40 years later with gas selling for over $2.00/gal they bring out this gas
guzzeling car. I also saw the GTO show on Speedvision. Though I only caught the last 15 minutes it gave a good idea of why GM failed. The original GTO owners didn't like the fact that it didn't have hood scoops, which by the way were non functional add-ons back then, and no duel exhaust. The GM exec gets on a says this car was made for a different buying group? Who might that be?
Then the 05 comes out and low and behold it has hood scoops and duel exhaust! Did GM bother to ask any of the guys at the GTO club what they would like to see in a new GTO? No!
This car weighs too much, doesn't handle anywhere near a Germen or Japanese simular car.
Oh sure it's faster in a straight line, but how many people that can afford this car and the gas to run it want something more than just a 1/4 mile screamer. People that buy BMW's, Audi's or MB are not considering this car. People that want a Lexus or an Infiniti arn't looking at this car either. One person a few posts ago had a list of cars that he was considering buying and stated that the GTO was not on his list. Heck, he didn't have one American brand car listed either.
Young guys in their 20's can't afford this car, guys in there 30's and 40's want something that not only goes fast but handles as well. If you look at what this car did in Road & Tracks slolam course compaired to competitors, it did poorly.
Back in the 70's I owned a Boss 302 Mustang and had a friend that owned a 69 Z28. Very fast cars at the time and handled pretty well by 1970 standards but we both sold them because we couldn't afford the gas. With gas heading towards $3.00+/gal the GTO just doesn't fit.

dan1

And lets all face the truth right now none of the American brands are holding thier value very well. I only buy used vehicles because of the hit you take driving off the lot. We saved about 10k on the 03 Explorer we bought about 6 months ago and it only had 12k on it. I would love to buy brand new but it just does not make sense for me right now.

lhess

i had a string of 4 pontiacs before buying my current mitsubishi. i got tired of replacing brake pads and rotors every 12,000 miles (on manuals no less), knocks and rattles that left you wondering what the heck you left in the trunk, or in the glove box or is there is liquor bottle rolling under the seat?? plastic trim on them warping and pulling away from the body... cheap, cheap all the way. the difference on the service is a few miles wide as well. traded a sunfire gt convertible off because no one could get it to stop leaking (under warranty) and i was afraid i was going to drown. my mitsu service guy caught a small flaw in my top on my spyder and suggested replacing while it was still under warranty. i can safely say i won't own a gm unless things change dramatically and the only domestic i am thinking about right now is the new mustang. pontiac should market the gto under another name if they don't make it - they might sell a few. my pontiac dealer has had 2 or 3 and have unloaded them on other dealers trying to get hard to find vehicles for customers. you know, you can have the denali, but you have to take the gto too!! sad!!

brushbandit

The 04 GTO has dual exhaust, it just exits on one side. The car does not handle "poorly", only a couple mph behind GT in a slalom. I'm sure right up their with comporable MB, BMW, etc.(which cost 10K+ more) As far as gas is concerned how do you explain people still buying Lg. SUV's and pick ups, alot that don't need a lg. vehicle. Most of these get a few MPG less than the GTO. I admit the GTO styling didn't excite people but lets not go overboard with statements like it handles poorly.

bar_xx

I guess its what your used to. I drive one of, if not the best handling car that sells for under $30k. If you think a Mustang GT is a great handling car then I am sure you think the GTO is as well. People that drive SUV's usually get more then one use out of it, wheather it's putting grocieres in it, taking your kids to Soccer games, sking in the mountains etc. A SUV is a car that both you and the wife can drive. I don't see too many woman driving the GTO, thus GM lost half the population right there.

brushbandit

My wife is the primary driver of our GTO. I'm talking the new GT which handles very well. You can put grocerys in most anything except a Mini Cooper. I'm dying to know what you drive.

phkck

Are either of the satelite radios available as a factory option for the GTO?
Also, has anyone used their GTO year-round where they experience snow and ice.
I imagine dedicated snow tires and a light touch might work.
Love

sputterguy

I agree with most of what you are saying. Most of those points have already been made so we are in agreement. The GTO handles better than you give it credit for though. Of course an M3 handles better, but then it costs $25K more. A starter 3 series BMW costs $33K. Approximately. You know how much horsepower you get for that? About 180. And that's why I drive a GTO and not a BMW or any other Euro vehicle.

4

hammen2

Nope, no XM in the GTO, since there is no XM Satellite Radio in Oz. I'll be installing in my Roady in my GTO when I pull it out of storage in about three weeks, give or take.

I do know some folks using their GTO as winter drivers. Snow tires are a definite must, and, if you get any appreciable amount of snow (6+ inches and drifting), with the low ground clearance of the GTO you'd probably be best to bum a ride or stay home...

--Robert

bigdaddycoats

I have driven my GTO all winter. We have had more snow than our average this year. Yes, it does not handle the greatest. But if you take it east and drive carefully it is no big deal. We has 8 inches of snow more than once and I drove it every day. Over the Christmas holiday we got about 10 inches and the roads in my sub were not plowed for 5 days and I was still able to get through. Years ago everyone drove RWD cars all the time.

sputterguy

Edmunds is strangely quiet about the '05. It may have something to do with the '04 review. That was embarassing it was so gushingly pro GTO. It seemed more like an ad rather that a review. Considering all the GTO ads that popped up I think Edmunds made a lot of money there. And I think that's the last good thing that has been printed on the GTO. It seems that now Edmunds is part of the conspiracy to either denigrate or just ignore the GTO.

midwesttrader

FYI - just read elsewhere that any GTO in inventory for more than 120 days is eligible for a $1K rebate during the GM March Madness Program. That's in addition to the $5K on the hood previously.

b4z

Well, after 3 months of ownership I couldn't take it anymore and took the spoiler off.
It took all of 20 minutes to do it.

Right now I have chrome faced waterproof tape over the holes.
I have 4 black caplugs, but can't find a 3/4" caplug for the wire harness hole.
My car is silver so the black plugs will have to be painted somehow.

I have to say that Pontiac should have given us a spoiler delete option from day one.
The back and rear quarter views of the car are much better now because they look lower.
I wish I had done it much earlier.

This should definitely be a option for '06.

bigdaddycoats

Where did you get the plugs? I want to take mine off as well, but have not beeen able to find plugs.

hammen2

Caplugs from Home Depot. I don't remember the exact sizes but believe it might be 3/8" for the 4 bolts and 3/4" for the wiring harness hole (forgive me if I am wrong). You have to pull back some of the inside trunk liner in order to disconnect the wiring harness.

I haven't pulled my spoiler yet (heck, the car went from the dealer to storage in about 90 minutes, so I haven't done _anything_ yet) but am considering it. I hate the fact that the standard spoiler (I'd call it factory but it's actually applied at the shipyard, after the GTOs come off the boat from Oz) blocks the view in the rear view mirror...

--Robert

phkck

Thanks for the input regarding the snow driving in a GTO.
I am still trying to make peace with the looks, but they are starting to grow on me.
The LS2 engine on the other hand! I view it as a sleeper Vette. I imagine most people don't suspect a thing until the light turns green.
Still researching and dreaming.

rrichman

I was at a dealer over the weekend and the manager told me 2005 GTO production was going to be put on hold for several months starting March 31, 2005, so "I'd better order now" cause there will be a 3 - 4 month wait. Obviously I did not bite, but I am curious if anyone has heard anything about a temporary production stop in the future? Thanks.

white6

I believe (from what I have read) that March 31 is the latest they can actually place a specific order for a 2005 GTO. 05's will be built till sometime in June and then they will shut down 05 production to gear up for 06 production. It's just that if you want an 05 after April 1, you will just have to find one already in production/shipping, instead of being able to "order" it.

midwesttrader

Has anyone seen an '05 delivered w/o the hood scoops? I'm wondering if they are actually going to build any.

Ideally, I'd like no scoops, no rear spoiler, and the 18" wheels. Will there be such a beast? I'd really like to avoid the whole ordering nightmare.

hammen2

I think the Holden plant will be down starting sometime in June, for changeover to the new Zeta Commodore. They won't start building '06 GTOs until September, meaning December deliveries for the '06 (when half the country is in the midst of cold, snow, and ice). Here we go again...

--Robert

hammen2

Nope, and further, I saw posts on another board from somebody who ordered the scoop delete, only to get a car with scoops. He ended up just keeping it, but his dealer did offer to make it right.

What color are you looking for? There are tons of folks who bought the 2004 Sport Appearance Package who have their old hood (I'll have an "extra" virgin Cosmos hood in about 45 days :-). And, likewise, you can probably find an '04 owner who would want your hood, assuming compatible colors...

--Robert

b4z

Apparently the (4) 3/8" caplugs need to be a 3/8-3 because they are shorter and don't interfere with the rain channels.

I am going to cut the tape out specifically for the hole sizes then do a search for the correct plugs and paint them somehow.
I will have to rough the plastic up so the paint will stick.

I am just so glad I don't have that wort stuck to the back of the car anymore that the tape doesn't even bother me.

b4z

'05 GTOs now have a $1,000 bonus!!!

hammen2

I thought that was only for grounded dealer stock on the lot for 120 days or more (i.e. just about any '04).

Since the first '05 GTO's started arriving in mid-January, that would only be 60 days, tops.

Or is this something new?

brood1213

Hammen your right. The unit had to be at the dealer for 120 days. I think the cutoff date was Oct 31 that the unit had to be in Dealer stock in GM's computer. But the 2004's would qualify if you find one

rrichman

Thanks for the information - please, can you tell me your source? I would like to read more about this as it seems my clock is ticking down!
Thanks!

casoncase

I have to agree, Sputterguy. This car may be too pricey and boring for many, but IMO it puts to shame anything the Mustang has to offer, which is why I don't have a Cobra. The quality just isn't there. On the other hand, edmunds.com does provide a useful service, like this forum, and I've always relied on them for car info through numerous car buying/selling cycles -- and I thank them for that. It's just that trust thing, I guess: fool me once, shame on you, etc.

Other subjects: 1) On my '04, because I slammed the trunk too hard when closing it (for over a year), there developed some noticable paint imperfections along the trunk line on the bumper fairing (which could only be seen with the trunk open), so on my '05 I close the trunk very gently; 2) Tire pressure at delivery was 50PSI+, therefore, insure that both tires and spare tire are inflated correctly when you get yours.

Thanks to the chap that went through how to remove the spoiler. I'm getting mine taken off and holes finished Monday for $600 -- dealer pays $300. I'll bet I could have saved some cash had I, at least, removed the spoiler myself, but what the hell: "woulda-coulda" can drive one nuts.

And, edmunds.com, thanks for what you do.

sputterguy

I just read where AAA said the EPA mpg estimates were so far off as to be 'bogus'. Triple A's real world driving estimates from driving with the air conditioner on, and in real traffic, and even driving uphill were far lower than the EPA's. Who woulda thought a government agency could come up with such unrealistic figures. I'm shocked.

elias

the idea that edmunds is part of a conspiracy to beat down the GTO is comical.
EPA numbers are known to be "way off" for many vehicles. they are looking into ways to make them more realistic. fwiw, the EPA #s have been "spot on" for many of my vehicles, such as my automatic & manual Z28s, TDI jetta, volvo V70. but they are "off" for our volvo XC90.
i too view the GTO as a sort of a sleeper-C6. i've driven neither a GTO nor a C6 but i suspect the C6 is considerably more fun to drive than the GTO. i'd be interested only in the 6-speed for either car. if i test drive either GTO or C6 i'll probably have to buy one asap, so i'm trying to delay a test drive until i can get the GTO way under invoice or the C6 at invoice. i'd want my GTO to be without spoiler... do the hood scoops actually increase horsepower, WS6-style?

sputterguy

When I bought my GTP back in '98 I also checked out the Mustang GT. They both cost $24k+. The Mustang had the cheapest interior, no shoulder room, and the gear shift was in an uncomfortable position. I don't care if it was faster, the GTP was twice the car. I bring that up because last summer I considered getting a Cobra. They were giving huge discounts so they were advertised for $29K, $30K. If they had made an automatic I might have gone for it. I just thought it would be cool to have two supercharged vehicles. But it only came with a manual and as I just said the gear shift is in an awkward position. They say the same thing in the Mustand forums so its not just my opinion. But they finally got rid of the dealer markups and added incentives for the GTO so the rest is history.

I was going to insist that they take the spoiler off before I bought the GTO which I'm sure they would have since they were getting so desperate. But I ended up leasing the GTO and since it is their car I'm leaving it on. And now that I'm trying to upgrade to the '05 I need the car to be in stock position.

hammen2

The hood scoops on the '05 just provide ventilation, not "Ram Air". There are aftermarket hoods (MPD) which do.

casoncase

There ought to be a law prohibiting auto transmissions for any car with over 350 HP. Just kidding.

No conspiracy? MT's GTO/GT piece was almost totally subjective, but there's nothing subjective about 400HP versus 300HP, or the fact that Mustang interiors are a bad joke -- sitting in the rear seats of a Mustang is like sitting in the jump seat a pickup truck. Other mags also have taken to this "let's not emphasize quality or horsepower" when evaluating the GTO. It's mid March and edmunds.com has yet to review the GTO, which has probably generated more forum interest than most of its forum stuff. Why?

Re the spoiler, it comes off very easily, and could be put back on very easily. The electical connection is lower right in the trunk bonnet, if you're looking at it closed and from the rear. The only issue would be temporarily covering the holes, especially the big hole for the electrical plug, which screws up the symmetry. On the other hand, you can't see the holes unless you're on top of it anyway.

With the spoiler off, the car looks wider and lower, accentuating the separation of the two very large pipes straddling "GTO". Visibility is improved, and there's no duplication of the stop light (which was as useless as the spoiler itself).

The sound that comes out of this engine is awesome. There ought to be another law: Every man shall own 400 horses.

crossbreed411

take it form a gm tech, the hood scoops are purely cosmetic, i ran across 2 of our salesmen drooling over the 05 gto that had just been delivered and with one look knew that nothing had changed except for the ngine from 04 to 05, the hood scoops are totally blocked off due to the plastic inserts, no airflow is allowed to even cool the engine. i do think they look good but i was diappointed that they did not go for the "ram air." (ram air doesnt add HP fromt he force of the air unless you are going about 100mph but it does act as a real good cold air intake) if you buy an 05 look into the dealer installed options, there is supposed to be a differant rear bumper complete with dual tips for each side. it looks a lot better than the stock rear but i have only seen it on the pontiac website, no one at the dealer had heard of it yet, good luck in your buying search
-nick

xkss

I hope the 2007-2008 Pontiac GTO, which will be built here, looks as good as the all-new 2006 Pontiac Solstice roadster.

The Pontiac Solstice was first shown as a concept at the 2002 Detroit auto show in Jan, 2002. It was shown at the 2004 Detroit auto show in production form.



Here is the 2004 Pontiac GTO Ram Air 6. It was a show car, not a production car.





Also, sales of the new GTO have been improving since the car went on sale.

hammen2

There are a number of significant changes in the 2005 beyond a bigger engine and the mostly-cosmetic hood scoops, including:

1) bigger, better brakes
2) a "drive-by-wire" system, instead of using throttle cables
3) separated dual exhaust (as opposed to single-side exit dual exhaust on the '04s)
4) the rear end has been restyled to look less tall (should have offered a spoiler delete option, this helps immensely)
5) the automatic tranny has been overhauled and recalibrated, resulting in faster 0-60 times than the stick
6) a dead pedal/changed pedal placement on stick cars

What you are referring to about the rear end is part of the 2005 GTO appearance package (also known as the Autocross appearance package). Options include the grille inserts, front fascia extensions, side skirts/rockers, autocross spoiler, and new lower bumper cover.

Hope this helps,

--Robert

midwesttrader

First choice is Midnight Blue/Black, second choice Quicksilver/Red. Has to be a 6 speed either way. My first choice is one of the new colors so that limits the possibilites for swapping for sure.

I have not seen an '05 on the street yet. If gmbuypower is correct, there are only 8 cars currently available for sale in the St Louis area.

sputterguy

Well, let's see. Run the GTO against European cars costing a minimum of $20K more. The GTO is right behind them but no, that's not a good enough showing.It was beaten by the CTS-V but as everyone here knows the CTS-V comes with the LS6 and starts at $49K. So it took 400hp to beat the GTO by a domestic. Now with the LS2, the GTO has better numbers than CTS-V. And that brings us to that other domestic which I won't name. The GTO wins hands down but then they created a new catagory: popularity. They like this other car better so it wins. And then there's the Consumer Reports drivers that can't get the GTO up to 60 in under 6 seconds. This must be the slowest 350 in history. I think I know the problem with Edmunds. They probably can't find a driver that even wants to drive it. It's such a horrible car that even 400hp doesn't make up for it. It's so ludicris. Oh well, can't win them all.

sputterguy

Hammen, can you explain briefly what 'drive by wire' is? I keep hearing about it but I don't have any idea what it is. thanks

bigdaddycoats

I believe this would be when there is no mechanical connection between the steering wheel and the steering rack. I am pretty sure that is correct. I do not know if any vehicle actually uses this system.

I do believe that there are vehicles that have a throttle by wire system - where there is no mechanical connection between the accelerator and the throttle. All done electronically.