Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

nvbanker

Yeah, I probably wouldn't get one right away either - give it some time....

xmf314

I have seen several Ford Five Hundreds in black primer and wearing Michigan Manufactures license plates being tested here on the streets of Los Angeles. Although the styling is a little derivative I think it is a good looking car.

I was surprised at how high the Five Hundred is. Recently, I was stopped next to one at a stop sign in my Volvo S60 and I actually looked up at the driver.

Also, I have also seen several of the upcoming Chrysler 300s under test here. To me the 300 is a homely beast. It is essentially a misshapen brick with a strange hot-rod chopped looking roof. The grill is also to big for the front end. What was DCX thinking when they designed that dog?

However, I think Chrysler is on to something with rear wheel drive and the option of the 5.7 hemi.

Too bad Ford didn't do the same thing with the Five Hundred.

badgerfan

Rear wheel drive might be fine in LA, however I wouldn't want it in the snowbelt. Been there, done that in the 70's and don't need to be able to make donuts in the parking lots, which is what rear wheel drive cars are good for in the winter.

Add all the bells and whistles with traction control, stability control, etc etc and you still won't match a front wheel drive car for traction in snow and ice.

I'd much rather have front wheel drive, or if I really want ultimate control, all wheel drive, which 500 will have as an option.

I agree with you on the brick faced 300C. It seems DC is trying too hard to be different, at the cost of aesthetics.

ANT14

I'm wondering how the Chrysler/Dodge duo will do in Europe when the "Pedestrian crash standards" are phased in. This would require MAJOR modifications to MANY vehicles, to lessen the impact on a pedestrian. Hoods need to be raised a few inches and allow crush space, and all these sharp,bold, upright grills will require major modifications as well.

Hopefully this government will not adopt those rediculous rules either.

fsmmcsi

Badgerfan - You probably did not have a limited slip differential and good snow tires on your old rear wheel drive cars. Those two things make a world of difference. Plus, snow tires now are vastly superior to old designs.

xmf314 - I am still interested in the Five Hundred because of the space and nice design, but if the 300C has enough space for my needs, the $35,000 (sticker, a few hundred over invoice in reality) for a very fancy full-sized sedan (use Edmunds to look at the equipment and features) with RWD and 340HP / 390 Ft. Lbs. will make me completely forget about the Five Hundred.

By the way - it appears that the 300 roof is lowered, but the belt line is raised. Like the Five Hundred, and the 300 provides a substantially higher seating position than past sedans.

nedc2

Unfortunately that raised beltline all around, the longer straighter hood combined with a dashboard nearly as long as those in the old cab-forward cars, and a high tail, not to mention the severely sloped rear with small window and thickish pillars in Dodge's Magnum sportwagon, all add up to the worst visibility I've ever seen in a modern car. It might not be bad if almost all of your driving is on the freeway, but if you do a lot of in town driving it's gonna be a real hassle. I can't imagine trying to parallel park one unless it's equipped with some sort of parking assist, and driving down the narrow side streets packed with kids that you'll find in some older urban neighbourhoods like mine...scary. I really wonder what the designers at DCX were smoking. They do look cool though;)

badgerfan

True I did not have limited slip differential nor snow tires on the old rear wheel drive cars, but I am talking apples to apples comparision here. My front wheel drive cars do not have that either. Sure adding limited slip and snow tires will help any rear wheel drive car, but I can get by just fine with neither feature on my front wheel drive only cars without snow tires.

fsmmcsi

Yes, the Ford Five Hundred and Mercury Montego will have an enormous advantage if you can not see out of the Chrysler 300. What good is rear wheel drive and a good drivetrain if you can't see out of the car? However, if the visibility is not as bad as the photos make it look, the RWD, V8, and good prices, and other features of the 300 will leave Ford with only good looks and a big trunk as advantages.

johnclineii

I sat in the Chrysler products at the NAIAS in Detroit. Pity the poor driver if she is even the least bit claustrophobic. VERY limited visibility, and the cars seem VERY small inside for their huge actual size.

fsmmcsi

johnclineii - were you also able to sit in the Five Hundred? I didn't know they allowed anyone to sit in them. Are you a member of the press or an auto industry employee? Whatever, you are lucky to have been able to sit in the cars most of us have only seen in photos.

johnclineii

Nope, no sitting in the Five Hundred. It was on the turntable! The Magnum and 300 were open for anyone to sit in the last Saturday of the Detroit show. And no, I wasn't there as press...

setzer

fsmmcsi- when you said "the RWD, V8, and good prices, and other features of the 300 will leave Ford with only good looks and a big trunk as advantages" those 'advantages' on the Chrysler may not be that big of a saleing point depending on where you live. I'm going to be living in California by the time the Montego comes out, and I won't need a V8 or RWD to get around. So that leaves Chrysler with the price. Price is definetly not an issue for me, so that is another thing that I don't care about. It comes down to the looks, and the 300 is hidious. On the other hand, the Montego is greatly attractive and may end up in my garage when fall rolls around.

xmf314

Having seen both the 300 and the Five Hundred, my guess is that price wise the 300 will be a better deal. That's because the 300 is a homely beast, and DCX will have to slap big rebates on the suckers to move them off dealer’s lots.

I wonder if Chrysler management knows how to say Airflow?

dale48

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You either hate the 300c or love it. Whats not to love about 340hp?
Besides the 500 isn't exactly the most beautiful car since the edsel.
Don't be so sure about the rebates, mid life guys are willing to pay for a little power. Maybe the stickers will say adtl dealer profit.

johnclineii

If they do say that, my bet is the dealers will be saying "PLEASE buy this car" within just a few months of sitting there and sitting there and sitting there...

fsmmcsi

I think both the Five Hunderd /Montego and the 300 will appeal to mid-life / boomer guys AND gals. Both offer a higher seating position somewhat like an SUV, van, or pickup, and both offer plenty of interior space (the dimensions are very close).

Both will also offer a lot of car for the money, so will appeal to the type of people profiled in the excellent book "The Millionaire Next Door" - middle or lower class people who have worked hard, saved, and invested, and who place a premium on value, rather than flash and showiness. I'm one of them. I would never spend what a Mercedes-Benz E500 costs, but it seems that the 300C will offer equal or better rwd handling, braking, and acceleration, plus a bunch of fancy features for $35,000 - a very good value, although at the high end of what I plan to spend for my next vehicle.

As for the 500, I do think it looks better in photos than the 300, but photos don't tell the real story - I need to see and drive both. The 500 is also a good value - real full-sized space, that big trunk, and a long list of fancy features. However, if Ford can only offer front wheel drive (all of the fwd-based awd vehicles I have driven still drive like fwd) with just 200HP / 200 Ft. Lbs., they need to keep the price no higher than $27,000 for the fully loaded 500 Limited.

oedipus1608

First Drive of the 300C

http://autoweek.com/search/search_display.mv?port_code=autoweek&a- mp;cat_code=coverstory&content_code=04277743&Search_Type=- STD&Search_ID=1938636&record=1

I think that this review gives me the right to laugh in the face of anyone that doubts the 300.

fdcapt2

I posted a short time ago about something I had read concerning the engine in the Montego having around 235 HP. Has anyone heard anything new ? A few people posted that both the 500 and the Montego were going to be using the Duratec 30 motor, with 200 HP, like the Taurus and Sable are using now. There also was talk of a different engine being used in later models. Any info will be appreciated.

ehaase

The 300C looks like it will be a magnificent automobile. However, the V6 300's look underwhelming. Chrysler needs to develop a detuned Hemi V8 or a Hemi V6 as standard for the lesser 300's. I prefer the 500 or Montego to the V6 300's. However, I prefer the 300C to either the 2005 Cadillac STS or the current Lincoln LS.

oedipus1608

A 245hp engine will be available next year for both the Montego and 500.

dale48

Well said.
I agree

ANT14

The 500 isn't aimed directly at the 300, and it's totally different consumer each is targeting. Although we can compare them as a large sedan american sedan, that's where the comparison will end.

The 300 will be priced according to it's engine, and it's 2.7 V6 will start off at $24K. If your worried about acceleration, this is NOT the engine to get. Next up is the 3.5L V6 and that will start at a few thousands more, already at the higher end of the 500's pricing. And Chrysler 3.5L is definately one engine I always found them to over-rate since it feels more like 210HP that it makes because of thr torque curve.

Although the 3.5L version could be the closest version you could compare to the 500 in pricing, and acceleration (by my guess on weight and typical transmission gearing). Taking the latter into account, the 500's 200HP will feel like 220-230HP, and the torque curve is matched greatly for the transmission.

Take a look at the Malibu (I believe MotorTrend comparison). While it's 200HP and 220TQ numbers were the lowest compared to other sedan, the car pulled in acceleration in 7.6secs even with a 4Auto. Imagine with the CVT and 6Auto can do for the 500. NOT that it's ment to be a blazingly quick vehicle either. But a sedan doing 60 in 7-8sec bracket, is decent.

Another note, the plant where the 500 is being built has been remodeled to be flexible. As in, if the 500's aren't selling, a flick of the switch will produce more Montego's, or Freestyle's. The only time you might see the sales people desperate on selling those vehicles, might be if ALL 500, Montego's, Freestyle's, aren't selling well. Therefore, don't expect $3000 rebates anytime soon.

fsmmcsi

Oops. The Ford 500 and Chrysler 300 offer the interior space of the Mercedes-Benz S-class, not the E-class. That makes them even better relative values: full-sized space (advantage Ford on the trunk), a high seating position for a better view down the road (and maybe more comfortable), all of the latest safety features, a long list of fancy features (advantage 300 for such things as automatic exterior mirrors) and mid $20,000 to mid $30,000 prices.

tomcat630

The Chevy Impala is in the top 10 sellers now, so I think the 500 will compete more with it than the average biege Camry 4 cylinder car.

nvbanker

That has to be a fluke though, tom..... The Impalas around here are bringing bargain basement prices at the auctions, (and are a pretty good value therefore used), which usually means the rental fleets are flush with them. Might be why they are selling so well, plus, the Olds Intrigue loyalists are transferring their loyalty dollars over to the Impala - closest thing available.

ANT14

Ford has cut quite a bit of sales to rental car fleets, and GM has been picking them up, That's why we are seeing a rish of Cavalier and Impala sales, while Focus and Taurus are down.

badgerfan

I imagine the Chicago Taurus plant is winding down production to switch over to 500/Freestyle, so that will cut the production capabilities of Taurus/Sable in half as well, so total Ford car sales will likely look bad until fall or later right ANT14?

ANT14

I believe the Chicago plant stops producing the Taurus in late March. So Atlanta will be the sole factory for the Taurus/Sables which is good considering it's one of Ford's higher quality plants, and the Taurus is one of the vehicles they produce rather rapidly overall.

Then the 500/Montego/Freestyle will begin in Chicago once the re-tooling period finishes. The Chicago plant has been redesigned for Flexible Manufacturing. In which a number of vehicles can be produced in the same line, with minimal chances to the assembly line.

As for the fate of Atlanta, nothing has yet been confirmed and will change a few times in the next coming years. The issue mainly is allocating new vehicles to either ATL or Oakville. New products (like the Mazda6 based SUV and minivan) can be sent to either or for production.

At one time Ford wanted to increase the ATL plant, then they wanted to close it altogether (this is when the city normally goes in and offer's a tax help program to keep them in the city), which is probably what they are trying to do. Then Oakville needs products desperatly, but there's CAW (Canadian Auto Workers) issues there. Ford has wanted to expand the Oakville plant (which produces the Monterey and Freestar) and add a supplier park to help facilitate building the vehicles there. But there were issues earlier with the CAW that might make Ford switch that plan again.

Then the Taurus/Sable will be cancelled later in the decade, so that leaves open capacity in ATL that would require new product to fill it. Issue with ATL is it's located in "HapeVille" which is just east of the Airport (you can see it as you fly into ATL)... NOT an issue but it's really land locked, so expanding it might be an issue. Ford has also mentioned buying land and building a new factory in outter suburbs of ATL, so that's another possiblity.

So as you can see, MANY options are possible. The only thing I can tell you in concrete is the 500/Montego/Freestyle will start being assembled later this summer at Chicago.

As for rebates, as I mentioned before... It's a flexible manufacturing plant. When one model isn't selling well, a flick of the switch and they can produce one of the other 3 models that is selling well. Although, don't be surprised if there's a very small rebate in the beginning, to get some customer's in the door. Same as with the F-150 when it first came out.

pat

Consumers' Most Wanted Vehicles for 2004 Survey is posted and ready for your input!

n144g

I also was quoted a price of $29,500 for a Montego AWD with the options.
At this point in time, with no rebates or incentives available yet, does anyone think I could get this price any lower or is the general thoughts that this seems to be the lowest price it I were to purchase now?
Anyone have any thoughts?
Thanks

tomcat630

"That has to be a fluke though, tom"

No, Impala sales have been consistantly increasing for the past 2 years, pretty good for a car on the market since 1999. It's no fluke, at all. Look up the figures.

grbeck

Yes, but how much of that increase is from fleet sales? GM, more than any other automaker, uses fleet sales to pump up sales figures.

I've seen recent months where Grand Am or Cavalier sales were up by double-digit amounts...I have a hard time believing that buyers were seized by an overwhelming urge to stampede the dealerships and snap up these two models. I'm sure quite a few Impalas are going to fleet customers.

kalyan

In 2005 Ford will begin the manufacturing process of its new engine called the DURATEC 35 its a 3.5 Liter V6 with 250 hp. Ford is makeing a lot of minor mistakes which I hope it will notice soon, like the switches on the steering wheel instead of being black should have put metallic painted switches would match on both beige interior and the dark interior too and should offer a new model for 2005 as a 06 model SHO with a V8 350hp I am sure it will cut the competition's nose off if the car is priced well should be about 32000 for the V8 as is in the Chrysler 300C. And one more thing should make a lot of change on the sister car Montego should change the grill the lights and the interior a lot.

ANT14

I can tell you this already, the P2 platform cannot fit any of Ford's current V8's (except the 3.9L V8 in the LS which will be dropped soon). Nor is there development underway for any new one's to fit in there.

fdcapt2

Has anyone heard anything on whether Ford/Mercury will be increasing the warranty on their upcoming models. Even though I've been a faithful Ford/Mercury buyer in the past, I'm wondering how much longer they can continue to offer 3 years/36,000 program. It looks like they have hit the nail on the head as far as style in the 500/Montego, but I really think they need to increase the coverage to stay in the hunt with the other manufacturers. I really would hate leaving the Oval for some other vehicle that would give me better piece of mind with a better warranty. I know it's been discussed here, but I'm still amazed that they are using the Duratec 30 to pull this car around in it's first year of release instead of really stickin' it to the others with the newer motor, which is needed NOW, and not in 2006.

ANT14

I wish they would increase their warranty as well, it worked with the Ford Focus actually, when they pushed it to 5yrs/100K miles I believe. But if Ford chooses too, they'll have to increase warranties on their luxury brands first, before placing Ford on the 4yr kind.

But Ford won't, unless GM, Toy, Honda does first.

Here's a story on the CVT that will become available on the 500/Montego and it's benefits on performance and fuel economy.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0403/11/c01-87420.htm

alpha01

Toyota's warranty is already above that of GM, Ford, and Honda- Bumper to Bumper is 3/36, but Powertrain is 5/60.

~alpha

ANT14

I should have clarified, I'm talking about the standard bumper to bumper basic warranty. As for powertrain, many manufacturer's have anywhere from 5-60K, to 10/100K. I see it this way, it's VERY weird/odd for the powertrain warranty to be used. (although I do have some friends who have used it on their VW's, and Kia's- BUT NOT surprising considering their horrible reliability).

Bumper to Bumper is much more important and useable since it covers all except normal wear and tear.

alpha01

ANT, thats a weak argument in my opinion. Given a Chrysler with the 7/70 powertrain warranty, or one without for the same price, I'd be willing to bet that all consumers would take the one with the 7/70. Its peace of mind. Based on what information is it "VERY weird/odd for the powertrain warranty to be used." Id rather have the powertrain covered for longer, given that it contains some of the MOST expensive repair items. Hondas can sell easily with 3/36 on reputation alone, aside from the fact that nearly all of the cars they produce are class leading or darn near. Fords however, cannot, and I would be skeptical of a CVT AWD 500, and it doesnt seem like Fords going to offer anything to put consumers minds at ease. In my head, the 10 recalls of the first three years of Focus stick out.

~alpha

fsmmcsi

Alpha01 - I agree - Ford will be selling unproven new technology (at least their unit is unproven), and Chrysler and others offer far better warranties. Just a transmission failure will make you understand the value of a better warranty, and modern automatics do not (ask any transmission shop) last nearly as long as they should. Maybe the very latest (e.g. the five speed in the explorer) will last longer. I think that many of us really do pay attention to warranties. If the headlight switch goes bad (bumnper to bumper), it is not nearly the same category as having a powertrain component fail.

upsetter1

Toyota extended powertrain warranty is already included in higher price. It is just a gimmick to sell a car. You always can buy better extended warranty when purchasing the car. BTW Toyota Camry bumper to bumper extended warranty (5/100,000) for less than one grand.

ANT14

"I'd be willing to bet that all consumers would take the one with the 7/70"

So why aren't people flocking to their vehicles? Sales of Chrysler's didn't skyrocket when they announced that warranty. And a longer powertrain doesn't guarantee the product isn't going to break down either. I know of a few sucker's who went into Kia's/Hyundai' because of their 10 year powertrain warranty and yes it's piece of mind, but already breaking down on it's 1st and 2nd year running.

" the 10 recalls of the first three years of Focus stick out."

What sticks out more is BMW's X5's 14-16 recalls, but of course, it would be un-holy to mention such a thing because of the label attentioned to the X5, heh...

I believe the recalls on the Focus were not powertrain related.

alpha01

My posit on the Chrysler 7/70 warranty used a closed comparison between two identical Chryslers. The reason that the 7/70 warranty did not spur sales is because the current crop of DCX cars are uncompetitive, save the newer designs like the much improved Durango. My point was NOT that the 7/70 warranty helped sales, just that, for a consumer chosen between identical vehicles where one has a longer powertrain warranty, and one does not, I'd bet my savings that nearly all would opt for the vehicle WITH the warranty.

I agree, break-downs suck. But not having to pay softens the blow.

I was well aware that the X5 had many recalls, but are you sure you arent exaggerating when you say 14-16? In any case, quality control on that model was horrid, just as it was with the first several years of Focus. Its nice to see that Ford offers the long warranty on the Focus, and that by most accounts, reliability has significantly improved.

Your initial argument that a longer powertrain warranty adds little confidence to the consumer and/or has little value, is not one that you will convince me of. (And judging from the response of others here, it seems like I'm not alone) Just like how you couldnt convince me that the Freestar and Monterey would be competitive prior to their launch. And guess what? They arent. Rebates and financing incentives are high, Consumer Reports ranks them below the OUTGOING GM minivans, and most other Car magazines have panned them as well.

But I digress.
~alpha

rayainsw

For me - yes, but . . .

In 1989, the Ford Taurus (IIRC) SHO had a 3.0 liter / 220 hp motor and it was a 6.5 to 7.0 sec 0-60 and low 15 sec. Quarter mile machine. With the rather baulky manual trans. The later automatics were high 15s, IIRC. Still not bad, acceleration wise. I do not recall the weight of these cars, but I doubt they were much heavier than the 500, unless the AWD is added. And the current 200 hp V6 is likely better in the low end torque dept. We’ll see.

Has anyone seen a weight for the new 500? And / or know the weight for the SHOs?

I am still surprised at 200 hp. With 240 hp in mainstream competitors like Accords - and now 250 in Altimas. BTW: The new ’05 Altima SE 3.5L V6 looks pretty cool, now that they have upgraded the interior substantially – and added a manual shift mode and 5 speed automatic. If FWD was not an issue for me, I’d be looking seriously at one. (And the pricing looks pretty reasonable.)

I will be VERY interested to see in there is a 300 hp AWD version of the 500 and Montego to follow in a year or 2 . . . Now that MIGHT interest me – in a couple of years.

- Ray
Happy with 280+ hp and RWD - today.

ANT14

" for a consumer chosen between identical vehicles where one has a longer powertrain warranty, and one does not, I'd bet my savings that nearly all would opt for the vehicle WITH the warranty. "

That's a no brainer if the vehicles are the same, reality is as you stated, they aren't competitive. As for a better example, take the Escape and Tribute. Mazda has a longer 4/50K warranty, whereas the Escape has a 3/36K. Equally optioned, the Escape could be a few hundreds more than a Tribute, yet the sales of the Tribute (having a longer warranty) are not nearly as strong.

"but are you sure you arent exaggerating when you say 14-16"

Check it out for yourself, it's currently at 14-16 YET we hardly hear about them. Of course, with the Focus because it's a Ford product, chances are it'll make front page news as usual.

"Just like how you couldnt convince me that the Freestar and Monterey would be competitive prior to their launch."

Who says anything about convincing? You buy what you wish to buy, I'm presenting the facts, people come up to their own conclusions. Competition builds better products and diversity between vehicles.

Ray,

"Has anyone seen a weight for the new 500? And / or know the weight for the SHOs?"

Depending upon transmissions (6AT or CVT) and driveline (FWD AWD). Your looking at anywhere from 3600-3900, give or take. The previous SHO2 with the 3.4L DOHC Yamaha V8 porked in at 3700-3800lbs., while the previous generation SHO1 weighed in at 3200-3300.

" will be VERY interested to see in there is a 300 hp AWD version of the 500 and Montego to follow in a year or 2 . . . Now that MIGHT interest me – in a couple of years."

I can definately tell you there's no project under development for such a vehicle. The 3.5L DOHC will be the next engine integration in about 2 years.

If you want performance sedan for around the price of the 500, look for the Futura ST270, which will sport a 270HP rating.

fsmmcsi

Today's Detriot News has a good article on the 500 and 300:

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0403/15/autos-92110.htm

samnoe

Here is not a minivan forum, but since you mentioned many times the fact that CR rated the Freestar "just above" the Kia Sedona, or below the outgoing GM models, I would like to comment on that:

There is no bad minivan out there. Unlike most other car categories, CR agrees that all minivans are good enough.

In CR performance ratings (performance, safety, comfort, convenience, interior quality, fuel economy, cargo capacity, & more - these is CR's own words April issue pg. 25) they have 5 ratings of 1)poor; 2)fair; 3)good; 4)very good; 5)excellent.

While no single model gets a 1)poor rating, there are many 2)fair ratings in most categories.

But in minivans, Toyota Sienna & Honda Odyssey are the only 2 to get a 5)excellent rating, and all the rest, including Kia Sedona, gets a 4)very good rating.

So of course the Freestar is not competitive with Sienna, but it's not that big difference, according to CR.

Now back to topic. The Focus now gets a 10 year/100K miles powertrain warranty, which gives costumers confidence to buy this car. I think that in the new 500 (which will use a completely new powertrain) Ford SHOULD offer an extended powertrain warranty as well.

alpha01

Point well taken with regard to overall minivan scores. That said, if you read the text, there are several areas where the lower but still "Very Good" minis sacrifice. Fords prices are pretty high, why not just buy a better mini for a little extra and retain that in resale and reliability?

I completely agree with your comments regarding the added confidence that the extend powertrain warranty offers Focus buyers. That has been my point all along. And I also concur that the extended warranty would be very appealing on the 500, which offers plenty new-to-Ford technology.

~alpha

nvbanker

It ain't ground breaking to be sure, but the Freerey minivan is new. I bought one for my business and so far, 0 defects. That gives me comfort for the 500 being a better execution than the Aviator.

boydoc

First post,but I have read them all. Can anyone tell me how quiet the Five Hundred is likely to be? Is this a priority for Ford? It was for their F-150. I will consider the dB rating quite high on my list of priorities. Also, why will the Montego not be sold in Canada? I like its looks.