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Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego
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Comments
I was surprised at how high the Five Hundred is. Recently, I was stopped next to one at a stop sign in my Volvo S60 and I actually looked up at the driver.
Also, I have also seen several of the upcoming Chrysler 300s under test here. To me the 300 is a homely beast. It is essentially a misshapen brick with a strange hot-rod chopped looking roof. The grill is also to big for the front end. What was DCX thinking when they designed that dog?
However, I think Chrysler is on to something with rear wheel drive and the option of the 5.7 hemi.
Too bad Ford didn't do the same thing with the Five Hundred.
Add all the bells and whistles with traction control, stability control, etc etc and you still won't match a front wheel drive car for traction in snow and ice.
I'd much rather have front wheel drive, or if I really want ultimate control, all wheel drive, which 500 will have as an option.
I agree with you on the brick faced 300C. It seems DC is trying too hard to be different, at the cost of aesthetics.
Hopefully this government will not adopt those rediculous rules either.
xmf314 - I am still interested in the Five Hundred because of the space and nice design, but if the 300C has enough space for my needs, the $35,000 (sticker, a few hundred over invoice in reality) for a very fancy full-sized sedan (use Edmunds to look at the equipment and features) with RWD and 340HP / 390 Ft. Lbs. will make me completely forget about the Five Hundred.
By the way - it appears that the 300 roof is lowered, but the belt line is raised. Like the Five Hundred, and the 300 provides a substantially higher seating position than past sedans.
I wonder if Chrysler management knows how to say Airflow?
Besides the 500 isn't exactly the most beautiful car since the edsel.
Don't be so sure about the rebates, mid life guys are willing to pay for a little power. Maybe the stickers will say adtl dealer profit.
Both will also offer a lot of car for the money, so will appeal to the type of people profiled in the excellent book "The Millionaire Next Door" - middle or lower class people who have worked hard, saved, and invested, and who place a premium on value, rather than flash and showiness. I'm one of them. I would never spend what a Mercedes-Benz E500 costs, but it seems that the 300C will offer equal or better rwd handling, braking, and acceleration, plus a bunch of fancy features for $35,000 - a very good value, although at the high end of what I plan to spend for my next vehicle.
As for the 500, I do think it looks better in photos than the 300, but photos don't tell the real story - I need to see and drive both. The 500 is also a good value - real full-sized space, that big trunk, and a long list of fancy features. However, if Ford can only offer front wheel drive (all of the fwd-based awd vehicles I have driven still drive like fwd) with just 200HP / 200 Ft. Lbs., they need to keep the price no higher than $27,000 for the fully loaded 500 Limited.
http://autoweek.com/search/search_display.mv?port_code=autoweek&a- mp;cat_code=coverstory&content_code=04277743&Search_Type=- STD&Search_ID=1938636&record=1
I think that this review gives me the right to laugh in the face of anyone that doubts the 300.
I agree
The 300 will be priced according to it's engine, and it's 2.7 V6 will start off at $24K. If your worried about acceleration, this is NOT the engine to get. Next up is the 3.5L V6 and that will start at a few thousands more, already at the higher end of the 500's pricing. And Chrysler 3.5L is definately one engine I always found them to over-rate since it feels more like 210HP that it makes because of thr torque curve.
Although the 3.5L version could be the closest version you could compare to the 500 in pricing, and acceleration (by my guess on weight and typical transmission gearing). Taking the latter into account, the 500's 200HP will feel like 220-230HP, and the torque curve is matched greatly for the transmission.
Take a look at the Malibu (I believe MotorTrend comparison). While it's 200HP and 220TQ numbers were the lowest compared to other sedan, the car pulled in acceleration in 7.6secs even with a 4Auto. Imagine with the CVT and 6Auto can do for the 500. NOT that it's ment to be a blazingly quick vehicle either. But a sedan doing 60 in 7-8sec bracket, is decent.
Another note, the plant where the 500 is being built has been remodeled to be flexible. As in, if the 500's aren't selling, a flick of the switch will produce more Montego's, or Freestyle's. The only time you might see the sales people desperate on selling those vehicles, might be if ALL 500, Montego's, Freestyle's, aren't selling well. Therefore, don't expect $3000 rebates anytime soon.
Then the 500/Montego/Freestyle will begin in Chicago once the re-tooling period finishes. The Chicago plant has been redesigned for Flexible Manufacturing. In which a number of vehicles can be produced in the same line, with minimal chances to the assembly line.
As for the fate of Atlanta, nothing has yet been confirmed and will change a few times in the next coming years. The issue mainly is allocating new vehicles to either ATL or Oakville. New products (like the Mazda6 based SUV and minivan) can be sent to either or for production.
At one time Ford wanted to increase the ATL plant, then they wanted to close it altogether (this is when the city normally goes in and offer's a tax help program to keep them in the city), which is probably what they are trying to do. Then Oakville needs products desperatly, but there's CAW (Canadian Auto Workers) issues there. Ford has wanted to expand the Oakville plant (which produces the Monterey and Freestar) and add a supplier park to help facilitate building the vehicles there. But there were issues earlier with the CAW that might make Ford switch that plan again.
Then the Taurus/Sable will be cancelled later in the decade, so that leaves open capacity in ATL that would require new product to fill it. Issue with ATL is it's located in "HapeVille" which is just east of the Airport (you can see it as you fly into ATL)... NOT an issue but it's really land locked, so expanding it might be an issue. Ford has also mentioned buying land and building a new factory in outter suburbs of ATL, so that's another possiblity.
So as you can see, MANY options are possible. The only thing I can tell you in concrete is the 500/Montego/Freestyle will start being assembled later this summer at Chicago.
As for rebates, as I mentioned before... It's a flexible manufacturing plant. When one model isn't selling well, a flick of the switch and they can produce one of the other 3 models that is selling well. Although, don't be surprised if there's a very small rebate in the beginning, to get some customer's in the door. Same as with the F-150 when it first came out.
At this point in time, with no rebates or incentives available yet, does anyone think I could get this price any lower or is the general thoughts that this seems to be the lowest price it I were to purchase now?
Anyone have any thoughts?
Thanks
No, Impala sales have been consistantly increasing for the past 2 years, pretty good for a car on the market since 1999. It's no fluke, at all. Look up the figures.
I've seen recent months where Grand Am or Cavalier sales were up by double-digit amounts...I have a hard time believing that buyers were seized by an overwhelming urge to stampede the dealerships and snap up these two models. I'm sure quite a few Impalas are going to fleet customers.
But Ford won't, unless GM, Toy, Honda does first.
Here's a story on the CVT that will become available on the 500/Montego and it's benefits on performance and fuel economy.
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0403/11/c01-87420.htm
~alpha
Bumper to Bumper is much more important and useable since it covers all except normal wear and tear.
~alpha
So why aren't people flocking to their vehicles? Sales of Chrysler's didn't skyrocket when they announced that warranty. And a longer powertrain doesn't guarantee the product isn't going to break down either. I know of a few sucker's who went into Kia's/Hyundai' because of their 10 year powertrain warranty and yes it's piece of mind, but already breaking down on it's 1st and 2nd year running.
" the 10 recalls of the first three years of Focus stick out."
What sticks out more is BMW's X5's 14-16 recalls, but of course, it would be un-holy to mention such a thing because of the label attentioned to the X5, heh...
I believe the recalls on the Focus were not powertrain related.
I agree, break-downs suck. But not having to pay softens the blow.
I was well aware that the X5 had many recalls, but are you sure you arent exaggerating when you say 14-16? In any case, quality control on that model was horrid, just as it was with the first several years of Focus. Its nice to see that Ford offers the long warranty on the Focus, and that by most accounts, reliability has significantly improved.
Your initial argument that a longer powertrain warranty adds little confidence to the consumer and/or has little value, is not one that you will convince me of. (And judging from the response of others here, it seems like I'm not alone) Just like how you couldnt convince me that the Freestar and Monterey would be competitive prior to their launch. And guess what? They arent. Rebates and financing incentives are high, Consumer Reports ranks them below the OUTGOING GM minivans, and most other Car magazines have panned them as well.
But I digress.
~alpha
In 1989, the Ford Taurus (IIRC) SHO had a 3.0 liter / 220 hp motor and it was a 6.5 to 7.0 sec 0-60 and low 15 sec. Quarter mile machine. With the rather baulky manual trans. The later automatics were high 15s, IIRC. Still not bad, acceleration wise. I do not recall the weight of these cars, but I doubt they were much heavier than the 500, unless the AWD is added. And the current 200 hp V6 is likely better in the low end torque dept. We’ll see.
Has anyone seen a weight for the new 500? And / or know the weight for the SHOs?
I am still surprised at 200 hp. With 240 hp in mainstream competitors like Accords - and now 250 in Altimas. BTW: The new ’05 Altima SE 3.5L V6 looks pretty cool, now that they have upgraded the interior substantially – and added a manual shift mode and 5 speed automatic. If FWD was not an issue for me, I’d be looking seriously at one. (And the pricing looks pretty reasonable.)
I will be VERY interested to see in there is a 300 hp AWD version of the 500 and Montego to follow in a year or 2 . . . Now that MIGHT interest me – in a couple of years.
- Ray
Happy with 280+ hp and RWD - today.
That's a no brainer if the vehicles are the same, reality is as you stated, they aren't competitive. As for a better example, take the Escape and Tribute. Mazda has a longer 4/50K warranty, whereas the Escape has a 3/36K. Equally optioned, the Escape could be a few hundreds more than a Tribute, yet the sales of the Tribute (having a longer warranty) are not nearly as strong.
"but are you sure you arent exaggerating when you say 14-16"
Check it out for yourself, it's currently at 14-16 YET we hardly hear about them. Of course, with the Focus because it's a Ford product, chances are it'll make front page news as usual.
"Just like how you couldnt convince me that the Freestar and Monterey would be competitive prior to their launch."
Who says anything about convincing? You buy what you wish to buy, I'm presenting the facts, people come up to their own conclusions. Competition builds better products and diversity between vehicles.
Ray,
"Has anyone seen a weight for the new 500? And / or know the weight for the SHOs?"
Depending upon transmissions (6AT or CVT) and driveline (FWD AWD). Your looking at anywhere from 3600-3900, give or take. The previous SHO2 with the 3.4L DOHC Yamaha V8 porked in at 3700-3800lbs., while the previous generation SHO1 weighed in at 3200-3300.
" will be VERY interested to see in there is a 300 hp AWD version of the 500 and Montego to follow in a year or 2 . . . Now that MIGHT interest me – in a couple of years."
I can definately tell you there's no project under development for such a vehicle. The 3.5L DOHC will be the next engine integration in about 2 years.
If you want performance sedan for around the price of the 500, look for the Futura ST270, which will sport a 270HP rating.
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0403/15/autos-92110.htm
There is no bad minivan out there. Unlike most other car categories, CR agrees that all minivans are good enough.
In CR performance ratings (performance, safety, comfort, convenience, interior quality, fuel economy, cargo capacity, & more - these is CR's own words April issue pg. 25) they have 5 ratings of 1)poor; 2)fair; 3)good; 4)very good; 5)excellent.
While no single model gets a 1)poor rating, there are many 2)fair ratings in most categories.
But in minivans, Toyota Sienna & Honda Odyssey are the only 2 to get a 5)excellent rating, and all the rest, including Kia Sedona, gets a 4)very good rating.
So of course the Freestar is not competitive with Sienna, but it's not that big difference, according to CR.
Now back to topic. The Focus now gets a 10 year/100K miles powertrain warranty, which gives costumers confidence to buy this car. I think that in the new 500 (which will use a completely new powertrain) Ford SHOULD offer an extended powertrain warranty as well.
I completely agree with your comments regarding the added confidence that the extend powertrain warranty offers Focus buyers. That has been my point all along. And I also concur that the extended warranty would be very appealing on the 500, which offers plenty new-to-Ford technology.
~alpha