I lost a niece a few years ago to a side impact accident. She died immediately of a head injury, when hit on the driver side of the car. She was 27 years old. Maybe she would be alive today if she had the side impact airbags. She would have at least had a chance of survival.
I chose to pay the extra money for the side impact bags. I want my family to have every possible chance of surviving a crash. I think that side impact bags will probably be in all future cars, in the next few years.
I understand that some people may not be able to afford this feature. For me, I chose to skip the DVD player and add the safety features.
If having EVERY available safety feature is so important why aren't you talking about buying the new Freestar with its safety canopy with roll-over sensor? It deploys in side impacts and when a roll-over is about to occur and stays inflated long enough to keep you in the vehicle during a roll-over. No other minivan has that.
rbell2 wrote: >Show me a '04 Sienna one can buy for "$25-ish" with front seat side >ABS, side curtain ABS, traction control, and VSC (much less 4-wheel >disc brakes) - IT DOES NOT EXIST!!"
04 Sienna CE with option Pkg AI: MSRP $25,100; Invoice price $23,366. And it has all the options you mentioned above.
>if anyone thinks side curtain ABS is going to be the difference in >life and death in more 0.0001% of crashes, this person probably >believes in the "big bang theory" for the beginning of the earth as >well.
Each year, 9,000 people died in side impacts in US. Side guard curtain is estimated to be able to reduce deaths by a significant 45%. And in case of a two car collision in which a passenger car with side guard curtain is struck by another car or minivan, the risk reduction is even more impressive at 74%.
>Some of these new features are being extremely over-rated.
On the contrary, most people do not realize the potential benefits of Side Guard Curtain. Your "big bang theory" comments appear to me that you may be one of them.
And VSC/ESP is perhaps one the most *under-rated* safety features which are not reflected in any crash testing done today.
Obviously, everyone wants to protect their families.
But some here are making suggestions that if you don't buy a certain feature you are making a poor investment for your family. This is flawed to the core. How can anyone suggest that one or two features should determine whether or not a car should be purchased? So much more goes into purchasing a vehicle...Price, safety, reliability, tow capacity, seating options, gas mileage, insurance, comfort, availability, and the list goes on and on and is different for each person.
Number one, Toyota has TOO MANY packages!
Number two, according to Toyota, LEs make up almost 70% of the vehicles made, XLEs 20%, Limiteds 4% and CEs roughly 6%. So, the "04 Sienna CE with option Pkg AI: MSRP $25,100" which was previously listed, good luck finding one.
These options are great to have (and I'm thankful I do have them), but the fact that they are great does not make them readily available to everyone.
The choice rbell2 made was the right one for him/her at the time the decision to buy was made. They did after all buy one of the highest rated minivans of all time! No one can place fault there. To ask a question, "Will you say to your children after their mother is killed in a side impact that she really wasn't worth protecting?" in IMHO, is at a minimum, improper.
Side Impact SRS can and will save some lives. But overall crash results will prevail despite the presence of one option alone. Some minivans may have this feature, but may perform poorly in other crash tests, we shall see. As for the Ody, it is a proven winner and should be afforded such a distinguished title.
vanshopper7 wrote: >But some here are making suggestions that if you >don't buy a certain feature you are making a poor >investment for your family.
I think you may be referring to me. And no, that's not what I meant at all.
I was just responding to rbell2's decision points. He was obviously concerned about safety as it was listed in his point #2. And he wrote:
>3) The few features on the Sienna you can't get on >an Ody did not mean a lot to me
which I thought was contradictory. And his "big bang theory" comments appear to me that he may not fully realize the potential benefit of side guard curtain.
Crash testing is important, but it should not be the sole basis of safety assessment. VSC and Emergency Brake Assist will not give any extra star in the crash testing, but it will reduce the chance of having a crash in the first place.
We just returned from purchasing a 2004 Sienna LE here in Orlando, FL. My only previous exposure to a Toyota dealer was one that added the 'Toyoguard' option to all of it's cars. Personally, I feel that this is a $700.00 scam which is forced upon consumers who are desperate to get the newest and bestest van on the market. The dealer where I purchased did not add this unwanted option and additionally took off the dealer fee. The result of my 2004 LE Sienna with package #1 and floor mats was LESS than any 2003 Odyssey here in Orlando out the door. I was actually planning to purchase my wife a 2003 Oddy this AM and happened to contact this Toyota dealer. Good thing for us, as this dealer and sales rep proved to be honest and sold the vehicle at their word. Very pleasant experience. I would only say about the Florida Honda dealers that they are arrogant and none would honor quotes given. RR
Yes there is alot more to buying a car than just a particular safety feature, but for a nominal amount over the life of the car its relatively cheap insurance.
To get side curtain airbags on a LE, its package BI which costs 1610MSRP/1336Invoice, you can have one for 25870. Another 1300 gets the Trac and so on.
I agree it is good that Honda added the side seat airbags to all models, the only problem is its half the loaf. Most people in accidents die of head injuries, the side airbags do not protect your head, just your torso. Had the new Sienna not offered these, I would likely be driving a very nice Honda Odyssey.
As for the Ford, yes that is a good feature, but if you wear a seatbelt you are very unlikely to be thrown from a vehicle in any case. In the case of the Ford, reliability can be a safety issue and the Windstar has been anything but reliable.
I think the Sienna should offer side curtains as a basic feature on all the Sienna's, just because you have a bit less money or are unaware of the benefits doesn't mean you should not have the best safety features available. As I said before I applaud Nissan for having the curtain airbags in all of their vans.
The active safety system of VSC is also an excellent feature, preventing an accident is as important as the structural performance of the vehicle. If I avoid one, I don't have to do a personal crash test.
So have so many valid points...good ones at that. I will never dispute safety facts or technological advances which protect my family or yours for that matter.
Curtain airbags are great...But you miss my point. It appears (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that you assume that you can just walk right into a Toyota dealership with a specific model in mind and drive off. That is not true. Are you not in the middle of a search yourself? Is it not taking a great deal of time for you to decide on who to buy from and wait for your order to come in?
The point I'm trying to make is a lot less complicated than we have made it here. rbell2 was in the market for a minivan. rbell2 did not want to wait an indefinite period of time purchase the Sienna so rbell2 purchased what has been the minivan standard (and a high one at that) for the last five years.
The safety rating on the Ody has received the best marks out there. In fact, even with the presence of VSC, Trac Control, and 4 wheel disc brakes, the Sienna was outperformed by the Ody with respect to handling and braking by Consumer Reports. No, I don't want to argue their tests, tires or surfaces, ect...
All I want to declare is that no one can be faulted or even worse - accused - of making a poor investment for buying one of the safest vehicles on the market.
On this point, you and I will simply have to agree to disagree.
One last thing, your statement on VSC is right on point with trying to prevent accidents, however, there are a lot of people who put too much trust in the VSC system and have a false sense of security. The laws of physics still apply!
vanshopper7 wrote: "In fact, even with the presence of VSC, Trac Control, and 4 wheel disc brakes, the Sienna was outperformed by the Ody with respect to handling and braking by Consumer Reports."
VSC does not make the car handle better; and none of Consumer Reports' tests put VSC into test. In addition to slippery road conditions, VSC also helps to correct mistakes by drivers, which does not include professional drivers who did the road tests.
And Consumer Reports Sienna's braking test result was particularly puzzling as it contradicted other road tests by Car & Driver, Motorweek and Toyota internal testing.
What I meant was, "I didn't want to argue CR testing etc" because there is so much to argue!
But, since you brought it up...
lekn wrote:
"VSC does not make the car handle better; and none of Consumer Reports' tests put VSC into test."
In their Oct. 2003 issue Consumer Reports wrote:
"The Sienna’s emergency handling is secure and predictable, helped by optional stability control, although it posted a modest speed in our avoidance maneuver." They seem to believe that the LE with VSC that they tested does help handling (although it works independent of the driver) and they commented on it?!?
As far as the braking issue, so many issues to argue here...and it's not worth arguing...CR tested an LE with different tires than most I've seen tested and the surfaces are different, etc... I just don't have the mental capacity to argue this one!
But back to my "Main" point:
Despite these minor arguments, it'll take a lot more to convince me or 150K new Ody owners that buying that van is a poor investment in a family when it still has the highest safety ratings in the industry -- with the Sienna, I do hope...
Yes, the seat belt makes it less likely you'll be thrown from the vehicle, but the Freestar canopy also protects your head throughout the rollover event, while the Sienna bags will have long since deflated.
I think most people are more concerned with color than safety pkgs. I paid 26,500 in April for a LE with the Bw pkg. I contacted almost all the dealers in the midwest asking if they could get this in phantom grey. I finally found one and drove 4 hours to pick it up. My friend went into a dealer bought one off the lot, paid $30,000 for a pkg. 6 with all sorts of crazy stuff added on.
My point is, if you're on here doing research and searching for what pkg. has the most value to you, you are in the minority. Most people don't want to "waste their time" on researching a $30,000 purchase. Believe me I don't understand it, but ask any salesman and you'll find it's true. Why do you think it's so hard for US to find the van we want at a decent price? It's because people walk in every day and take whatever is on the lot, paying MSRP and smiling all the way home!
Got my Sienna 8 passenger with Arctic Frost Pearl color last week, looks very cool.
There are some problems in the first several days, the plastic cover of the center seat of middle row was broken already before I started using it. The service department of my dealer ordered a new cover to replace it. To me the plastic covers (especially the ones under or beside the seats) of the new Sienna look very cheap.
The second issue is that I found when I press on the gas pedal, there is always a slight hesitation first. I hope it is not just me. I also found that unlike what's been claimed by Toyota, it is quite noisy when accelarating. At least my previous Honda Odyssey 1997 was quieter.
The third issue is that whenever I press the gas, I hear a whistling sound under the hood. I don't know whether it is normal for the new Sienna or not. Has anybody got the same noise? I am going back to the dealer this weekend again.
Other than the above issues, everything looks/works fine. I hope there will be no more problems.
We were notified about a month ago of the fuel tank recall for our 'o4 Sienna and made an appointment right away. My wife asked the dealer if the car was safe and was told not to worry. She left on a 1500 mile trip and upon return took the car in for the service. Upon arrival at the dealer, she was told that there were no tanks available and that Toyota is "making them as the vehicles come in for the recall" and that the car was unsafe to drive. They took the car and gave us a rental, telling us they will have our car "until further notice" After complaining to the service adviser about (a.) letting her drive so long with a dangerous car, (b.) not having the tank in stock when our appointment was made 1 month prior and (c.) not letting us know when we can get our $28,000 car back, we got no satisfactory answers and a lot of finger pointing. We are very unsatisfied with the whole Toyota experience.
Another flaw mentioned here is the manual sliding door that won't stay open if the window is open a crack. Basically on any sort of incline that door is unusable due to safety, a person needs to hold open the heavy door while letting a child climb in. I expect Toyota will face a multitude of lawsuits over this design flaw. I would rather have the door always lock open or never lock open, the lack of consistency is extremely dangerous.
To the best of my knowledge, the sliding doors are designed to not fully open when those side door power windows are open. This is a safety feature so that a child's head won't get stuck or hit if the door is opened while their head is sticking out the window. Check out the owner's manual on this. I don't know if this safety feature is supposed to be activated as soon as the window is opened, even a crack, or if it needs to be open some minimum amount, say 3 inches for example.
If you want the door to lock on an incline, close the window and then the door will open fully and latch.
I understand your point about a child's head being in the window while opening, although I find that scenario remote, my concern is if you have just finished shopping or whatever, and are approaching the vehicle from the outside and the window was left open for ventilation, the door isn't usable safely. You would have to get into the car, start it up, close the window and exit the car before the door would latch open. Carrying an armful of groceries or a small child would make this unsafe at best and dangerous at worst.
I noticed the hesitation also when I first got my 04 Sienna. After the first oil change the acceleration seems much smoother. Someone had mentioned to me that the manufacture probably uses a different type of oil when the vehicle is built. Perhaps to help with the break in period. The manual door and power windows on that door was a bit of a mystery to me also. If you really want to open the window while having the door open, open and lock the door into place first, then roll the power window down. Once I figured out that you have to close the window before you can open the door to let the children out, I always ensure that the window is closed. It seems to be a great reminder for me to not leave the windows open while leaving the van. You know, for security, rain, or those silly cats that like to jump in when nobody is around.
Blame our "You can't expect me to be responsible for myself or my charges so I'll sue if you don't think of every stupid thing I could possibly do with your product" society. We want opening (power, no less!) windows in our sliding doors, but that adds another potential guillotine effect to that already present due to the power windows themselves. (I shudder every time I think of the horrendous possibilities for my 2 and 4 year olds as I marvel at my own attachment to power windows.)
We want these devices to make our lives easier and more comfortable but we refuse to accept any of the risks they create. So, over stressed designers, engineers, and programmers try to think of every single idiotic misuse we or our duplicitous children might try so that they can compete while avoiding the financial ruin that a class action lawsuit (or even one particularly gruesome case) might bring.
It seems like some other world (and, in fact, it was) when I think of the days of our family of 6 careening down the road in an over packed boat of an early sixties station wagon while the only-recently-available lap belts lay dirty and unused under the seats. What freedom we felt in our blissful ignorance! Those were the days (but not so great for the much, much, much higher percentage of folks who constituted the highway death toll!)....
I am having the same problem with cannuck13 and richb9, sometimes when I am slowing in corner (doesn't matter left or right turn) and then back on the gas, it doesn't seem in gear (just like in neutral). I then drop to 4th gear with a bang and on you go.
My problem is that it is not happening all the time, so I can not easily reproduce it to the dealer. But I know it is a problem for sure and it is so annoying. I haven never driven a Toyota car like this before.
The other issue is the whistling noise when I start the engine in the morning, open the hood, couldn't hear anything, but the noise can be heard behind the front tires and underneath and inside the car the noise is obvious. The same case when I am driving, the whistling noise is worse. I went to dealer twice, the technician said that it is normal and there is nothing he can do. This is so frustruting, I had to turn on the radio to try to avoid the noise while I am driving. I chose Toyota for its smoothness/quietness, but now I am not getting what I expected. Is there anything I can do?
cannuck13, I noticed that you are from Canada as well, which City are you living in and which dealer did you deal with? I am living in Toronto, Toyota on Front is my dealer.
I have 650 km on this Sienna and so far the problem happened only 3 times, that's why it is so difficult to reproduce to the dealer, I even couldn't reproduce it myself when I tried to find out the pattern when the problem can happen. Since I have 5 years power train warranty, I decided to wait and see how it happens again and try to find out the pattern. I am under warranty anyway. : )
Regarding the whistling noise, I hope it will go away after some time.
We purchased our Sienna LE on March 31 2003. I actually liked the car until the gas tank recall problems. As soon as I heard about the gas recall I contacted Toyota Usa and my dealership. They performed the exchange relatively quickly. I was informed that my car was the first one they are replacing gas tank. They also said that the correct hose did not come with original shipment. Two weeks later driving with my son and wife from school the car suddenly stops and you can smell fuel. We got out of the car and saw the gas leaking. After taking the car to the dealership next day they informed me that the fuel line was not fully secured. ( Surprise since they change the gas tank) In addition to that problem they scratched the car while pulling it out from the parking spot. I expected higher level of service from Toyota. I am extremely unhappy about this kind of service and workmanship. I guess my friends were right by getting Honda.
I'm going to call on Monday and see where I'm on the list. They told me the car is safe, but I can get a replacement vehicle if I want. I'm sticking with the Sienna. I don't want to get the rental car.
Have owned 94 Camry and 2001 Rav4 and have heard enough stories from Toyota Owners, it is clear that Toyota's 1st year model has high number of minor issues. I like Toyota's quality but this time I think it just went too far. A Recall???!!!
Some people expressed their frustrations with the dealers. I think the only way to reduce this type of problem is to have Toyota improve its initial quality. It is not realistic to expect a dealership to provide quality fix. Shame on those so called specialists! I have to believe they are nothing special except the title after I repeatedly go back to the dealers to fix the same problems. My observation doesn't base on Toytoa alone but the other brands I had as well.
After enough lessons, I concluded something wise men have concluded a long time ago. Avoid first year model! In addition, never buy a car without test driving it and thoroughly examining it. Even a brand/model is praised by all others, the one you ordered can be very different. The reason is simple, minor deviation is acceptable in any engineering. Another words, engineers have long realized the fact that it is humanly impossible to make a perfect item. Therefore, you may get a car at 99.999% close to the design specification or at 99% close. This small difference is enough to translate to a big quality difference among owners.
I am planning to buy a 2005 or 2006 Sienna if Honda's new design could not impress me. Nissan is out of my consideration since I really could not appraciate Nissan's durability although it is far better than a lot of other brands.
This is my 2cents. Good luck with the issues you are experiencing!
I've had so many new cars in the past. I've yet to have a car that wasn't recalled for something. I guess I've just gotten used to it. I've had Mazda, Chrysler, Nissan and Toyota. Recalls on all of them.
I'm just gratefull that the dealers have all fessed up and repaired the problems.
Sorry for the slow response, havn't been watching this site for a while. The dealer I went to was Don Valley North Lexus Toyota on Steeles Ave in Markham. The way you described the problem is exactly what we experienced. I found it difficult to reproduce the problem, however, if you have the same problem as we had you can show them a different scenario. You can drive at say 40 km per hour at constant speed...then floor it. The engine will race like crazy with little if any acceleration...then it will drop into gear. This can be reproduced any time you want. This problem disappeared when I got the new tranny. Anyway, call the service manager at Don Valley and tell him you think you have the same problem as Paul and Lynne Wellman had a couple of months ago... they replaced our tranny and it works great now.
Thanks for your response. I will try the scenario you described, as what I have remembered, the three times it happened to me, the speed was indeed around 40km before I braked it in the corner!
For the Don Valley North Lexus Toyota dealer you went to, I have been there several years ago to rent some Toyota cars from them, very good service. Is it possible or allowed to go to different dealer instead of the one I purchased vehicle from when I have some issues with the car?
Anyway I will try to go there this weekend.
Thanks again.
Though with the minor issues of the first year production for Sienna 2004, I still love it and hope that it will be a great car once the minor issues are solved.
You can go to any dealer in North America for service. I bought my Sienna at Attrell Toyota in Brampton but I take mine to Don Valley for service because I can walk to work from there. (I know the owner at Attrell so he gave me a great deal but it is way to far to drive there for service).
Thanks canuck13 for the information, unfortunately I can't easily reproduce the same thing when I need. In previous two days, it happened to me 2 times with no sign at all. One time, I was stopped by the front vehicle, so I quickly changed line, pressed gas pedal, it just didn't seem to move, after several seconds, it returned to normal. The second time, it happened after I made even a slow left turn. In the last two cases, I didn't do anything different. The only pattern I found is that it happened sometimes (not always) only after I turned steering wheel, and it never happened when I drive straight.
Anybody has idea what went wrong? Maybe my case is not even as serious as canuck13's. I will keep watching it and find out what I can do. By the way, I sent compaint letter to my dealer, hopefully they can do something about it.
I am not driving a lot, every year I drive maximum of 10,000 KM, so I might not be able to see the situation getting worse.
I think you have the same transmission problem that I had. The problem is with the torque convertor. However, they replaced my complete transmission. I also noticed the problem you describe only when making a turn. I don't think it has anything to do with turning, just that it creates the scenario. The scenario is that you are slowing down, coasting and then get back on the gas before coming to a complete stop. It then feels like the transmission is slipping..you press the gas but there is no acceleration...then it seems to drop into gear with a sudden bang or lurch. If you have those symptoms then I think you have exactly the same problem I experienced. It is not supposed to work that way!! Get them to fix it! Believe me, the transmission is completely different when you get one that works properly.
The dealer that I purchased my Sienna from will not be preforming scheduled maintenance. They did replace my gas tank, but they are wanting to gouge me for the every 5,000 maintenance. I went to other dealers and found one that will do the job for much less cost to me.
I went through this with several VW dealers and learned my lesson.
Thanks to all for the candid information on the site. The 2004 Sienna is obviously an outstanding vehicle and in my opinion has leapfrogged the Ody (which may leapfrog back with its next redesign). I agree with liujn and am planning to wait for the 2005 model. There are still three reasons I see to wait: to let the Toyota engineers iron out any remaining bugs in the first-year redesign, make further improvements, and to let production rise so that hopefully prices drop. Remember the first-year Tundra a couple of years ago? Again, a great vehicle but if I remember correctly Toyota had to recall it for a vibration problem that was cracking some frames. I believe they had to add 6 lbs of metal to counteract the vibration. A couple of months ago I actually went to the Credit Union auto buying service here in Albuquerque, with down payment in hand, intending to order a 2004 Sienna (XLE LTD with HO pkg: DVD and NAV system). However, the best deal they could get was only $500 off MSRP (from Right Toyota in Arizona) and they recommended waiting a few months for production to rise and cost to drop. I have written a couple of books before and have seen how each draft (or edition) is better than the last, but still has a few errors, and I think car models are similar in this respect. I just hope my old '90 Camry, which has been a great car, makes it another (15th) year.
has been fine so far. We brought it home in May. I hope it stays that way and best of luck to those who are having problems. My question concerns a black mark that appears to have been rubbed on by something or someone in passing. I had Toyota look at it and asked if they would see if they could remove it. They couldn't and told me to take it to a body shop. When they did attempt to remove the mark, it looks like they also removed the glossy finish with it. Can anyone suggest a compound or polish to remove the mark and return the glossy finish? The mark looks like someone was riding their bike and the black rubber handle grip left this mark, but I'm not sure really what it is. Any suggestions? Thanks!
We purchased our Sienna in August 2004. No major problems to report. The kids love the van very much and I think that it's great too. It's great to know that it achieved higher ratings than either Honda or the 04 Nissan in the IIHS tests. We have the safety package and find that the 4 wheel disks provide very quick and sure stops. One of my best loved features is the very tight turning radius on this big vehicle.
Some minor issues that I'm not sure are really issues but I thought I'd post them in any case.
1) Be VERY careful with the rear hatch. On closing the tailgate last week using the taillamp as leverage point, a start crack appeared in the middle. I hope that this will be considered under the warrantee when I take it in for the first oil change at 3K.
2) Maybe it's me, but the transmission seems to have a hard time finding the right gear. I have to be very careful if trying to make a quick maneuver on the freeway. The two times I've tried to do so, the lowest gear is selected and the whole van lurches forward. This problem is not too bad for us since most of our driving is local. I've noted the other messages here about tranny slippage but I've not noticed any outward noises or anything that would lead me to believe that is happening here.
3) Our paint seems to chip and scratch very easily. In one case our toddler ran a plastic handle on his trike across the rear quarter panel and put a decent scratch in the clear coat. We have found at least two chips to the bare metal. TG, our touchup paint was available since it was initially put on the 03 Highlander (Salsa Red).
4) Our gas tank was replaced under the recall within about three weeks.
I have had a couple of paint chips on the hood over the past 4 1/2 months. One good way to lessen the impact is to get the hood protector or Xpel/3M proection film. I have the hood protector and it seems to do a good job (less bugs and rock impacts.)
All cars now seem to have paint that chips/scratches easily. My previous Mercedes Benz and Lexus cars both had the same paint issues. I think the major cause is the use of water based paints in the last ten years (oil based is not used anymore due to environmental concerns.)
Shifting gears on an automatic, apparently at highway speed, in a minivan while "trying to make a quick maneuver on the freeway" eh? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. And I thought we Dallas drivers were aggressive. Sheesh, I think I'll stay away from Chicago freeways if your driving style is at all common there! :-0
I have bought Sienna LE with #4 package two months ago. And I have small issues: 1): the clock is faster 1 minute in every week. 2): the sound of left power sliding door is not so quiet as when it is new though it works fine. Does anyone know how to lubricate or clean the power sliding track?
If you own a 2004, then you probably already know about the design flaw with the personal lights. That is, if someone manually turns on a personal light (when the front switch is set at "door"), then it will not turn off after you turn off the car and leave it, unless you also happen to leave a door open. This means that you can run down your battery if the kids leave their personal light on, and you don't go back to check for lights 30 minutes after turning off the car. I called and complained, and they said they have received some complaints, but haven't made a fix for it. The more complaints, the quicker the fix, is my thought. So please, call Toyota at 800-go-toyota and tell them to fix this (and retro-fix it at no charge for us)...
Owners, when you have the rear seat heat set to the hotest, and the air coming out the top vents, is the air hot? I am receiving conflicting reports of whether or not hot air should be coming out of these vents from the Toyota dealer and Toyota customer service...
Hot airflow, or even slightly warm, from the overhead, face, or upper body vents would definitely conflict with NipponDenso's (Toyota & Lexus' HVAC designers) claim to climate control uniqueness.
With the climate control system in heating mode (determined by being in automatic outlet airflow mode and the system having selected footwell airflow outlets, manual over-ride to other outlets does NOT change the system from heating mode) the upper passenger compartment system airflow will ALWAYS be as much as 20F cooler than footwell airflow.
If the system setpoint is say, 72F, and the passenger cabin has reached the approximate setpoint the airflow from the upper outlets will be as much as 20F BELOW 72F.
The confusion may be caused due to the fact that while the cabin temperature is being raised to the set comfort level the airflow from all outlets will be reasonably warm.
The NipponDenso engineers haven't yet learned that human body comfort is heavily influenced by radiant cooling from the wintertime surrounding landscape and that cooling airflow to the body in this circumstance can be extremely discomforting.
Hmmm, looks like Toyota copied that "feature" from DC; my '99 GCS works the same way. Often I go out to the garage in the morning and see a reading light on (they're hard to see through the privacy glass). Fortunately, they're small lamps and even in below-zero weather the van has always started (except when the battery failed one summer, but that was a different problem).
My Sienna 04 LTD AWD is having some kind of rattling sound coming from inside the dash. We removed all the loose article (coins, toys...), but the sound still rattling everytime the vehicle is vibrating. The sound is not very loud, but just enough to become an annoying issue. Anyone out there has the same problem? any suggestion is greatly appreciated.
Comments
I chose to pay the extra money for the side impact bags. I want my family to have every possible chance of surviving a crash. I think that side impact bags will probably be in all future cars, in the next few years.
I understand that some people may not be able to afford this feature. For me, I chose to skip the DVD player and add the safety features.
Bev
>Show me a '04 Sienna one can buy for "$25-ish" with front seat side
>ABS, side curtain ABS, traction control, and VSC (much less 4-wheel
>disc brakes) - IT DOES NOT EXIST!!"
04 Sienna CE with option Pkg AI: MSRP $25,100; Invoice price $23,366. And it has all the options you mentioned above.
>if anyone thinks side curtain ABS is going to be the difference in
>life and death in more 0.0001% of crashes, this person probably
>believes in the "big bang theory" for the beginning of the earth as
>well.
Have you read this?
http://www.hwysafety.org/news_releases/2003/pr082603.htm
Each year, 9,000 people died in side impacts in US. Side guard curtain is estimated to be able to reduce deaths by a significant 45%. And in case of a two car collision in which a passenger car with side guard curtain is struck by another car or minivan, the risk reduction is even more impressive at 74%.
>Some of these new features are being extremely over-rated.
On the contrary, most people do not realize the potential benefits of Side Guard Curtain. Your "big bang theory" comments appear to me that you may be one of them.
And VSC/ESP is perhaps one the most *under-rated* safety features which are not reflected in any crash testing done today.
Obviously, everyone wants to protect their families.
But some here are making suggestions that if you don't buy a certain feature you are making a poor investment for your family. This is flawed to the core. How can anyone suggest that one or two features should determine whether or not a car should be purchased? So much more goes into purchasing a vehicle...Price, safety, reliability, tow capacity, seating options, gas mileage, insurance, comfort, availability, and the list goes on and on and is different for each person.
Number one, Toyota has TOO MANY packages!
Number two, according to Toyota, LEs make up almost 70% of the vehicles made, XLEs 20%, Limiteds 4% and CEs roughly 6%. So, the "04 Sienna CE with option Pkg AI: MSRP $25,100" which was previously listed, good luck finding one.
These options are great to have (and I'm thankful I do have them), but the fact that they are great does not make them readily available to everyone.
The choice rbell2 made was the right one for him/her at the time the decision to buy was made. They did after all buy one of the highest rated minivans of all time! No one can place fault there. To ask a question, "Will you say to your children after their mother is killed in a side impact that she really wasn't worth protecting?" in IMHO, is at a minimum, improper.
Side Impact SRS can and will save some lives. But overall crash results will prevail despite the presence of one option alone. Some minivans may have this feature, but may perform poorly in other crash tests, we shall see. As for the Ody, it is a proven winner and should be afforded such a distinguished title.
>But some here are making suggestions that if you
>don't buy a certain feature you are making a poor
>investment for your family.
I think you may be referring to me. And no, that's not what I meant at all.
I was just responding to rbell2's decision points. He was obviously concerned about safety as it was listed in his point #2. And he wrote:
>3) The few features on the Sienna you can't get on
>an Ody did not mean a lot to me
which I thought was contradictory. And his "big bang theory" comments appear to me that he may not fully realize the potential benefit of side guard curtain.
Crash testing is important, but it should not be the sole basis of safety assessment. VSC and Emergency Brake Assist will not give any extra star in the crash testing, but it will reduce the chance of having a crash in the first place.
Yes there is alot more to buying a car than just a particular safety feature, but for a nominal amount over the life of the car its relatively cheap insurance.
To get side curtain airbags on a LE, its package BI which costs 1610MSRP/1336Invoice, you can have one for 25870. Another 1300 gets the Trac and so on.
I agree it is good that Honda added the side seat airbags to all models, the only problem is its half the loaf. Most people in accidents die of head injuries, the side airbags do not protect your head, just your torso. Had the new Sienna not offered these, I would likely be driving a very nice Honda Odyssey.
As for the Ford, yes that is a good feature, but if you wear a seatbelt you are very unlikely to be thrown from a vehicle in any case. In the case of the Ford, reliability can be a safety issue and the Windstar has been anything but reliable.
I think the Sienna should offer side curtains as a basic feature on all the Sienna's, just because you have a bit less money or are unaware of the benefits doesn't mean you should not have the best safety features available. As I said before I applaud Nissan for having the curtain airbags in all of their vans.
The active safety system of VSC is also an excellent feature, preventing an accident is as important as the structural performance of the vehicle. If I avoid one, I don't have to do a personal crash test.
Curtain airbags are great...But you miss my point. It appears (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that you assume that you can just walk right into a Toyota dealership with a specific model in mind and drive off. That is not true. Are you not in the middle of a search yourself? Is it not taking a great deal of time for you to decide on who to buy from and wait for your order to come in?
The point I'm trying to make is a lot less complicated than we have made it here. rbell2 was in the market for a minivan. rbell2 did not want to wait an indefinite period of time purchase the Sienna so rbell2 purchased what has been the minivan standard (and a high one at that) for the last five years.
The safety rating on the Ody has received the best marks out there. In fact, even with the presence of VSC, Trac Control, and 4 wheel disc brakes, the Sienna was outperformed by the Ody with respect to handling and braking by Consumer Reports. No, I don't want to argue their tests, tires or surfaces, ect...
All I want to declare is that no one can be faulted or even worse - accused - of making a poor investment for buying one of the safest vehicles on the market.
On this point, you and I will simply have to agree to disagree.
One last thing, your statement on VSC is right on point with trying to prevent accidents, however, there are a lot of people who put too much trust in the VSC system and have a false sense of security. The laws of physics still apply!
Happy and safe driving!
"In fact, even with the presence of VSC, Trac Control, and 4 wheel disc brakes, the Sienna was outperformed by the Ody with respect to handling and braking by Consumer Reports."
VSC does not make the car handle better; and none of Consumer Reports' tests put VSC into test. In addition to slippery road conditions, VSC also helps to correct mistakes by drivers, which does not include professional drivers who did the road tests.
And Consumer Reports Sienna's braking test result was particularly puzzling as it contradicted other road tests by Car & Driver, Motorweek and Toyota internal testing.
But, since you brought it up...
lekn wrote:
"VSC does not make the car handle better; and none of Consumer Reports' tests put VSC into test."
In their Oct. 2003 issue Consumer Reports wrote:
"The Sienna’s emergency handling is secure and predictable, helped by optional stability control, although it posted a modest speed in our avoidance maneuver." They seem to believe that the LE with VSC that they tested does help handling (although it works independent of the driver) and they commented on it?!?
As far as the braking issue, so many issues to argue here...and it's not worth arguing...CR tested an LE with different tires than most I've seen tested and the surfaces are different, etc... I just don't have the mental capacity to argue this one!
But back to my "Main" point:
Despite these minor arguments, it'll take a lot more to convince me or 150K new Ody owners that buying that van is a poor investment in a family when it still has the highest safety ratings in the industry -- with the Sienna, I do hope...
My point is, if you're on here doing research and searching for what pkg. has the most value to you, you are in the minority. Most people don't want to "waste their time" on researching a $30,000 purchase. Believe me I don't understand it, but ask any salesman and you'll find it's true. Why do you think it's so hard for US to find the van we want at a decent price? It's because people walk in every day and take whatever is on the lot, paying MSRP and smiling all the way home!
We're showing our age...
Crash test results are out, btw:
Cars, vans perform well in crash test (MSNBC)
Steve, Host
After the fuel tank is replaced, the Sienna was given the highest safety rating in the crash test.
There are some problems in the first several days, the plastic cover of the center seat of middle row was broken already before I started using it. The service department of my dealer ordered a new cover to replace it. To me the plastic covers (especially the ones under or beside the seats) of the new Sienna look very cheap.
The second issue is that I found when I press on the gas pedal, there is always a slight hesitation first. I hope it is not just me. I also found that unlike what's been claimed by Toyota, it is quite noisy when accelarating. At least my previous Honda Odyssey 1997 was quieter.
The third issue is that whenever I press the gas, I hear a whistling sound under the hood. I don't know whether it is normal for the new Sienna or not. Has anybody got the same noise? I am going back to the dealer this weekend again.
Other than the above issues, everything looks/works fine. I hope there will be no more problems.
Another flaw mentioned here is the manual sliding door that won't stay open if the window is open a crack. Basically on any sort of incline that door is unusable due to safety, a person needs to hold open the heavy door while letting a child climb in. I expect Toyota will face a multitude of lawsuits over this design flaw. I would rather have the door always lock open or never lock open, the lack of consistency is extremely dangerous.
If you want the door to lock on an incline, close the window and then the door will open fully and latch.
The manual door and power windows on that door was a bit of a mystery to me also. If you really want to open the window while having the door open, open and lock the door into place first, then roll the power window down. Once I figured out that you have to close the window before you can open the door to let the children out, I always ensure that the window is closed. It seems to be a great reminder for me to not leave the windows open while leaving the van. You know, for security, rain, or those silly cats that like to jump in when nobody is around.
We want these devices to make our lives easier and more comfortable but we refuse to accept any of the risks they create. So, over stressed designers, engineers, and programmers try to think of every single idiotic misuse we or our duplicitous children might try so that they can compete while avoiding the financial ruin that a class action lawsuit (or even one particularly gruesome case) might bring.
It seems like some other world (and, in fact, it was) when I think of the days of our family of 6 careening down the road in an over packed boat of an early sixties station wagon while the only-recently-available lap belts lay dirty and unused under the seats. What freedom we felt in our blissful ignorance! Those were the days (but not so great for the much, much, much higher percentage of folks who constituted the highway death toll!)....
My problem is that it is not happening all the time, so I can not easily reproduce it to the dealer. But I know it is a problem for sure and it is so annoying. I haven never driven a Toyota car like this before.
The other issue is the whistling noise when I start the engine in the morning, open the hood, couldn't hear anything, but the noise can be heard behind the front tires and underneath and inside the car the noise is obvious. The same case when I am driving, the whistling noise is worse. I went to dealer twice, the technician said that it is normal and there is nothing he can do. This is so frustruting, I had to turn on the radio to try to avoid the noise while I am driving. I chose Toyota for its smoothness/quietness, but now I am not getting what I expected. Is there anything I can do?
cannuck13, I noticed that you are from Canada as well, which City are you living in and which dealer did you deal with? I am living in Toronto, Toyota on Front is my dealer.
Thank.
Regarding the whistling noise, I hope it will go away after some time.
Some people expressed their frustrations with the dealers. I think the only way to reduce this type of problem is to have Toyota improve its initial quality. It is not realistic to expect a dealership to provide quality fix. Shame on those so called specialists! I have to believe they are nothing special except the title after I repeatedly go back to the dealers to fix the same problems. My observation doesn't base on Toytoa alone but the other brands I had as well.
After enough lessons, I concluded something wise men have concluded a long time ago. Avoid first year model! In addition, never buy a car without test driving it and thoroughly examining it. Even a brand/model is praised by all others, the one you ordered can be very different. The reason is simple, minor deviation is acceptable in any engineering. Another words, engineers have long realized the fact that it is humanly impossible to make a perfect item. Therefore, you may get a car at 99.999% close to the design specification or at 99% close. This small difference is enough to translate to a big quality difference among owners.
I am planning to buy a 2005 or 2006 Sienna if Honda's new design could not impress me. Nissan is out of my consideration since I really could not appraciate Nissan's durability although it is far better than a lot of other brands.
This is my 2cents. Good luck with the issues you are experiencing!
I'm just gratefull that the dealers have all fessed up and repaired the problems.
Bev
For the Don Valley North Lexus Toyota dealer you went to, I have been there several years ago to rent some Toyota cars from them, very good service. Is it possible or allowed to go to different dealer instead of the one I purchased vehicle from when I have some issues with the car?
Anyway I will try to go there this weekend.
Thanks again.
Though with the minor issues of the first year production for Sienna 2004, I still love it and hope that it will be a great car once the minor issues are solved.
Anybody has idea what went wrong? Maybe my case is not even as serious as canuck13's. I will keep watching it and find out what I can do. By the way, I sent compaint letter to my dealer, hopefully they can do something about it.
I am not driving a lot, every year I drive maximum of 10,000 KM, so I might not be able to see the situation getting worse.
I went through this with several VW dealers and learned my lesson.
Bad dealers are hurting the automobile industry.
I agree with liujn and am planning to wait for the 2005 model. There are still three reasons I see to wait: to let the Toyota engineers iron out any remaining bugs in the first-year redesign, make further improvements, and to let production rise so that hopefully prices drop.
Remember the first-year Tundra a couple of years ago? Again, a great vehicle but if I remember correctly Toyota had to recall it for a vibration problem that was cracking some frames. I believe they had to add 6 lbs of metal to counteract the vibration.
A couple of months ago I actually went to the Credit Union auto buying service here in Albuquerque, with down payment in hand, intending to order a 2004 Sienna (XLE LTD with HO pkg: DVD and NAV system). However, the best deal they could get was only $500 off MSRP (from Right Toyota in Arizona) and they recommended waiting a few months for production to rise and cost to drop.
I have written a couple of books before and have seen how each draft (or edition) is better than the last, but still has a few errors, and I think car models are similar in this respect. I just hope my old '90 Camry, which has been a great car, makes it another (15th) year.
My question concerns a black mark that appears to have been rubbed on by something or someone in passing. I had Toyota look at it and asked if they would see if they could remove it. They couldn't and told me to take it to a body shop. When they did attempt to remove the mark, it looks like they also removed the glossy finish with it. Can anyone suggest a compound or polish to remove the mark and return the glossy finish?
The mark looks like someone was riding their bike and the black rubber handle grip left this mark, but I'm not sure really what it is. Any suggestions? Thanks!
Some minor issues that I'm not sure are really issues but I thought I'd post them in any case.
1) Be VERY careful with the rear hatch. On closing the tailgate last week using the taillamp as leverage point, a start crack appeared in the middle. I hope that this will be considered under the warrantee when I take it in for the first oil change at 3K.
2) Maybe it's me, but the transmission seems to have a hard time finding the right gear. I have to be very careful if trying to make a quick maneuver on the freeway. The two times I've tried to do so, the lowest gear is selected and the whole van lurches forward. This problem is not too bad for us since most of our driving is local. I've noted the other messages here about tranny slippage but I've not noticed any outward noises or anything that would lead me to believe that is happening here.
3) Our paint seems to chip and scratch very easily. In one case our toddler ran a plastic handle on his trike across the rear quarter panel and put a decent scratch in the clear coat. We have found at least two chips to the bare metal. TG, our touchup paint was available since it was initially put on the 03 Highlander (Salsa Red).
4) Our gas tank was replaced under the recall within about three weeks.
We'll keep you posted.
Chicagoburbs (Wheaton, IL)
All cars now seem to have paint that chips/scratches easily. My previous Mercedes Benz and Lexus cars both had the same paint issues. I think the major cause is the use of water based paints in the last ten years (oil based is not used anymore due to environmental concerns.)
Our Sienna does not take curves or corner well at all. In addition, it does not drive well in windy conditions.
I will not replace our 2004 Sienna with another Toyota..........................................
1): the clock is faster 1 minute in every week.
2): the sound of left power sliding door is not so quiet as when it is new though it works fine. Does anyone know how to lubricate or clean the power sliding track?
Dako-tien, we all don't drive like that in Chicago, many of us are much worse!
With the climate control system in heating mode (determined by being in automatic outlet airflow mode and the system having selected footwell airflow outlets, manual over-ride to other outlets does NOT change the system from heating mode) the upper passenger compartment system airflow will ALWAYS be as much as 20F cooler than footwell airflow.
If the system setpoint is say, 72F, and the passenger cabin has reached the approximate setpoint the airflow from the upper outlets will be as much as 20F BELOW 72F.
The confusion may be caused due to the fact that while the cabin temperature is being raised to the set comfort level the airflow from all outlets will be reasonably warm.
The NipponDenso engineers haven't yet learned that human body comfort is heavily influenced by radiant cooling from the wintertime surrounding landscape and that cooling airflow to the body in this circumstance can be extremely discomforting.
Even on a COLD and quite thoroughly fogging over interior windshield surface.
see:
http://www.globaldenso.com/TECHNOLOGY/tec-report/2001/html_versio- - n/20.html