We saw the same with the old IS300. It never came to pass.
Not quite. You saw a Rod Millen IS430 that was a one-off car built to prove the IS can accomodate the big V8. There will indeed be an M3 fighter from Lexus. Whether it will be an IS500 or an IS460 remains to be seen...
Reading between the lines, it looks like Lexus expects to sell around 8,000 IS350's per year in the US. I don't know the answer to this, but how many cars would Lexus have to sell in order to justify any enhancements over the 350?
Lexus officially tested V8 powered IS's. The test photos floated around for years and years. It was always "coming soon" in the car rags. Never came to pass.
I don't hold out hope for hi-po cars unless the manufacturer gives a date. Heck, Mazda gave a date and the Mazdaspeed6 still isn't out. lol
Good question. BMW moves 5-6k M3s a year. That number's a shock but then again Lexus would finally offer buyers an alternative to the M3, which essentially sits in that niche alone (the C55, S4/RS4 and CTS-V are kinda in there but more after thoughts).
Be nice to see real what competition will do to that niche
Its not too hard to have the car imported. After talking to Customs this is it needs to be done.
- Have a letter sent from Lexus USA about information on outstanding recalls - Have a sticker on the car about vehical information. (sticker is usually found on drivers door) - Call US Customs and let them know which border crossing and time you want to transport the car. Have lexus fax them all the car information. - After scan of car, cross the border and complete forum 1. You need to pay your Tariffs (6.1%) GST and 182$ for federal inspection. - After crossing border customs Canada will mail you a forum 2. - Go to Canadian Tire and get forum 2 and federal and provincial inspection completed. - Go to provincial license office and register the car. (pay for your PST)
That being said a IS 250 cost just over 55 cnd for the sport model when purchased in Canada.
These figures are estimates.
A sport model in the states cost 34,305. After destination and converting it to Canadian dollars it becomes 40,700 now add your tariff 2,544 then your GST 3,337 federal inspection fee 182 provincial registration PST 2920
Approx Grand total 49,700$
You pretty much save the sport package. I'm also thinking of importing because I've already been treated better from the dealers in the states.
However the most important thing is if the warranty will keep. Thats the major thing.
All things being equal, the smaller the car the better handling. So they wanted to have a little better handling car, and they sacrificed a little bit of back seat room. Up to a point. While it may carry its weight around well, just imagine how much better the IS would have handled if it weighed about 300-400 lbs less.
"Up to a point. While it may carry its weight around well, just imagine how much better the IS would have handled if it weighed about 300-400 lbs less."
Agreed, but isn't this true for any performance car. Less weight = better performance.
go for it man. Does the US version come with daytime running lights and approved bumper? If not, you can get them done at a dealer or perhaps Can. Tire. My friend did it with a US Audi TT. It is quite sad that there is such a glaring differential in price. Also base Canadian car has 16" rims and lacks sunroof. Real difference in prices is stark. Considering how reliable Lexus cars are, you probably will not face warrenty issues though you would have to do warrenty work in the states. I will be impressed if they ship you a car in km rather than miles. I live in Windsor and it is easier for me to service my Acura in any of Detroit's 3 Acura dealers than going to London or Toronto. (so far only 1 trip).
What's the federal inspection fee for? You still have to take it to a certified inspector right?
I'm am a lil late for this response but I don't what all this complaining about the IS pricing being too high no matter how you dice it it's still cheaper than its competitors when equally equipped. Not to mention the best engine,looks,interior,performance,reliability,service etc. etc. Lexus has got the winner here this class.
I sacrificed some things in exchange for others. They are such different cars. I am really happy that I made the move. In 5 years my kids will be too big for me to get away with it and I'll go back to the GS.
However the most important thing is if the warranty will keep. Thats the major thing.
Dealerships are requiring customers sign a release saying they will not import/export the vehicles to Canada for 1 year from date of initial sale. Manufacturers and dealers are doing this to protect their sales regions.
Good summation of both the car's serious flaws and the arrogant dealer attitude.
Regardless of the car's pros, its main flaw, viz. its extremely small and cramped interior, negates the rest. I personally consider the size flaw fatal.
Couple this with arrogant dealers and exhorbitant prices and you basically have a loser of a car. Unless you are a very tiny person with a very big purse . . .
debating between an IS350 and an Infiniti M35. Any fanatics here know the chances of a manual 350 coming out next year. I wish they would make a manual and lower the prices. I remember the g35 sedan came out and it was a nice car but a year later we had the g35 coupes manual and beefed up with more hp. Hope lexus can follow the same pattern in upping the next years model somewhat and dropping prices.
Heard the guages on the new IS350 look awesome at night. How are those shift indicating lights on the dash...I'd like to hear testimonials por favor.
yeah... those guys are putting on the face. they want to sell them so bad, but won't give you the invoice price or discount. let's all wait, and see. i don't see anyone buying them in So Cal. but they keep saying .. long wait, don't have any in stock, i was like, uh.. what do you call those... that's funny. i don't see them driving around either. i'll wait til christmas or longer. i don't really feel like being rip off or pay mrsp pricing. lexus is a lexus. i don't see why a car w/ 80% what i want, i have to pay premium price. don't look expensive, or masculine. i'll pay $33K w/ nav. yes.. that's the price i'm willing to pay. even those i can pay w/ all cash now. :lemon:
If you are looking at the M35, it looks like you don't mind an auto tranny, so why worry about the I350 getting a stick? Unless you meant the G35 of course!
anyway, that's quite a difference in size class between these 2 cars, although I guess the price might be close depending on how they are optioned. the M certainly has a bigger interior!
I'm am a lil late for this response but I don't what all this complaining about the IS pricing being too high no matter how you dice it it's still cheaper than its competitors when equally equipped.
I agree. I think this car is fairly well priced for what you get. My 01 S4 was $40k back then (nearly fully loaded), and now (5 years later) you can get an IS 350 fully loaded (with tons more cool electronic gadgets and a bigger engine with better fuel economy, etc....) for about $45k - that's not that bad.
Not to mention the best engine,looks,interior,performance,reliability,service etc. etc.
I agree the engine and interior are pretty impressive. However, looks are subjective, and I can just about guarantee you that this car will loose (though it will be close) a C&D comparison of performance (all but straight line performance) to the 330i (at least until they get a MT and on/off switch for VDIM - that's the comparo I want to see).
It already lost the overall C&D contest to the BMW. They loved its straightline performance (Acura TL was #2), but didn't like the nannies. BMW won even though the thing suffered from 3 electrical problems, one severe.
Price - base 250 - in the USA is fair to good, and I would even submit that the loaded 350 is ok. However, ty building one on Lexus Canada's web site to see what an unmitigated ripoff they are foisting on tax-weary Canadians. Also, telling one to compare its price to a comparable BMW is also incorrect since it is BMW and not Lexus who currently dominates this market. The lower players never get to sit on the premium price.
"Couple this with arrogant dealers and exhorbitant prices and you basically have a loser of a car. Unless you are a very tiny person with a very big purse . . ."
To be fair, you will find bad apples out of all company's dealerships.
Some of us may also be a person with not too much need for a back seat.
I spend a couple days in Yosemite and come back to read a novel!
gstois: Congratulations! I don't even know if I want the car or not yet, and I'm still jealous. I know it's potentially hazardous these days, but that smell is intoxicating and at least 10% of the reason I live to buy new.
I had a feeling the ML would be more or less a non-issue with actual use. I have a standard "premium" system in my gen1 IS, plus a fairly demanding ear, and I've been plenty happy.
IS HiPo variant: I recall a comment from Clements before his butt was canned to the effect that such a variant would certainly be studied, actual implementation would be based on selling a business model to Toyota top brass. Based on what our old friend badtoy, a former Toyota insider, posted a number of times, it's certain they're looking at it, but doubtful to reach production except as an AMG competitor program car. I don't think the AMG-style program is ready as yet. By the time it is, other concepts will likely have stolen the money.
Could be wrong, but my bet is the IS gets a few plant changes down the road, but no V8 for a while, if indeed before the next full freshening.
BTW, the seat-fold thang was pretty funny. Who was that guy anyway?
I know it's potentially hazardous these days, but that smell is intoxicating and at least 10% of the reason I live to buy new.
As a matter a fact it is! I just saw a program in regards to all the toxins and offgases in a new vehicle .It sounds like your days of "new smell" are numbered. The manufactures are being pressured to make sudden improvements.
I wouldn't say Lexus but most certainly Infiniti. My dad has an acute nose and when he sat in a brand new Infiniti he just about puked on the dash. Then, when he sat in the Lexus he gave the ole, "Now this is the way a new car should smell like, like leather not like plastic (Infiniti)!".
I should clarify one thing about the ML system in the IS. Based on review of the manual, the changer with the ML system is a DVD changer, as opposed to a CD changer in the standard system. With the ML, it looks like you get a host of DVD/surround sound options to play movies when the car is stopped.
This is not a selling point for me, being that I am more interested in the sound quality of the system and don't often sit in my car to watch movies. We have a rear entertainment system in our SUV for the kids, but mainly use it on long trips while in motion.
I will start off by saying no. I like the IS dash they put in the IS...
You mean this dash?
Compared to this one?
You are losing me here... Both are nice, two-tone, and Toyota/Lexus. Of course you will find certain similarities amongst the same company, but the IS dash is uniquely Lexus.
Iam on the east coast and put a deposit down on a pearl white 350 back in June. Does anyone know how long before these cars hit the east coast dealers?? My dealer seems clueless.
You'd better hustle down to your dealer right now to make sure they're still in business. I went to the only Lexus dealer in town (upstate NY) last week and they had six on the lot.
I am searching for Bluetooth guru's but can't seem to find the answer to this issue:
The pairing of my car and phone is a piece of cake, and so is making calls. I haven't tried to transfer contacts yet.
Here is my issue:
The car has the ability to display the signal and battery strength of the phone. - The Nokia 6230 that I have displays neither. - The two Motorola's I have tried (V551 and Razr) show the signal, but not the battery - The Sony I tried showed the battery, but no signal. It also said that there was no signal and couldn't connect a call. I fussed around with it (crappy phone by the way - very confusing menus) and got it to make a call, but it still didn't show the signal.
Cingular is my carrier. Does anyone know of a phone that will display both the battery and signal strength on the car?
I posted this elsewhere, IMO the C&D comparo was a BMW benefit advert. C&D picked the car which most closely resembled an out and out race car. The BMW handling was superb but none of the creature comforts which most of us have come to expect in these type of cars worked. The TL, Caddy and IS were better all around cars than the BMW, its just that C&D rates their cars solely on all out performance.
BMW won even though the thing suffered from 3 electrical problems, one severe.
That goes to show that the C&D comparo is worthless. What kind objective test would let a car that did not even finish all the tests to win a comparo? How many winners do you know have won races by not finishing the race at all? The reviewers already made up their minds before tallying the points, if not before gathering the cars to begin with.
Car buying isn't objective. Who ever said car buying was an objective process?
Aside from a residence, car-buying is the single most subjective purchase any of us will ever undertake. Even the most analytical of us is horrendously subjective in our car purchase.
Perhaps the C&D team, based on all their previous experience with BMWs decided the issues at their comparo were anecdotal, and treated them that way, by informing their readers while still testing the key aspects of the car; the driving aspects. Perhaps.
Doesn't mean I put that much weight on a C&D review of any car, just means that called it as they saw it right down the line. I won't know until I drive it if they were right or wrong.
Mike, thanks for the comparo results. I have not been keeping up with my car mag reading, but it basically goes along with exactly what I would think of this car in comparison to a 330i - just a slight step behind the Bimmer performance-wise(since you can't shut off the VDIM and no stick), but otherwise a slightly better car in all other aspects.
In regards to the electrical problems, IMO this is not what the test is about. We will all go out and compare the cars for ourselves from a subjective appearance and functionality standpoint. What the mags are supposed to do is push the car to its maximum limits for an extreme evaluation of its performance - something none of us can do on a test drive, but which a few of us may do later on our own at the track.
Also, you have to keep in mind, C&D editors just lust over BMW to a rediculous degree - it's almost embarrasing reading their stuff over the years, with how they just think the steering and handling of BMWs is sooooo much better than anyone else in the universe. They really should try and be just a little more objective.
I agree with your analysis based on BMW performance and/or C&D lack of objectivity, however, if the magazine did an individual test of the BMW or any other make, and had the kind of issues with electrics and other creature comforts would they have spared the criticism? I think not. As much as C&D loves the Bimmers in any form, they would be forced to be critical of the problems which arose. As a matter of fact (going from memory) I believe they did mention that these were not one off problems but that they encountered them in previous BMW tests.
Let's not get into a "structural integrity of folding seats" discussion here. I agree that buying a car is probably the most subjective purchase one can make and it's entirely how the person perceives the total package.
C&D review seemed pretty accurate to me. It was a virtual tie. One point out of 200+ points does not create a winner in my book.
There is a definite power advantage with the Lexus, but they don’t always go for all-out power; many years ago I remember the NSX would always win comparisons, but it usually had the least power. I also recall a BMW loosing (once ) think it was a 325 compared to an A4.
The reviewers are nothing special just a bunch of jerks (like us) that drive expensive cars fast.
I believe that they take an average of all the reviewer’s results. And there are no “deal-breakers”; they just give it a rating so not having a manual may be a deal-breaker or one interior design may be a deal-breaker for us but not for them.
I personally would like to see a long-term comparison test since I plan on keeping an automobile for longer than a weekend
Some of us may also be a person with not too much need for a back seat.
Well, everyone needs a front seat and the front seat in this rig is no great shakes, either. One gets the distinct impression that one has been slotted into a clam shell with far too little space between the left elbow and the door, between the right elbow and the console, and as regards the leg space, it is long enough but not wide enough, particularly in the AWD with the "hump" on the left of the transmission tunnel protruding into the right leg. I think the car is an interior spatial disaster.
And for all this you get to pay a truly exhorbitant and unreasonable price in Canadian dollars, particularly if you want ML and navigation.
"How many winners do you know have won races by not finishing the race at all?"
Very good way of putting it. A car still needs to be able to drive. I mean, what use is grading a sport sedan if the car can't even perform the most basic functions of a car?
The review was clearly a sham, not that it matters :P
Comments
Not quite. You saw a Rod Millen IS430 that was a one-off car built to prove the IS can accomodate the big V8. There will indeed be an M3 fighter from Lexus. Whether it will be an IS500 or an IS460 remains to be seen...
I don't hold out hope for hi-po cars unless the manufacturer gives a date. Heck, Mazda gave a date and the Mazdaspeed6 still isn't out. lol
Be nice to see real what competition will do to that niche
I like fast cars.
You're right, nothing wrong with optimism. My bad.
Must have missed that...Hopefully, this time, it will come for real... We can only speculate...
I'm seriously thinking of importing.
Its not too hard to have the car imported. After talking to Customs this is it needs to be done.
- Have a letter sent from Lexus USA about information on outstanding recalls
- Have a sticker on the car about vehical information. (sticker is usually found on drivers door)
- Call US Customs and let them know which border crossing and time you want to transport the car. Have lexus fax them all the car information.
- After scan of car, cross the border and complete forum 1. You need to pay your Tariffs (6.1%) GST and 182$ for federal inspection.
- After crossing border customs Canada will mail you a forum 2.
- Go to Canadian Tire and get forum 2 and federal and provincial inspection completed.
- Go to provincial license office and register the car. (pay for your PST)
That being said a IS 250 cost just over 55 cnd for the sport model when purchased in Canada.
These figures are estimates.
A sport model in the states cost 34,305. After destination and converting it to Canadian dollars it becomes 40,700
now add your tariff 2,544
then your GST 3,337
federal inspection fee 182
provincial registration PST 2920
Approx Grand total 49,700$
You pretty much save the sport package. I'm also thinking of importing because I've already been treated better from the dealers in the states.
However the most important thing is if the warranty will keep. Thats the major thing.
Up to a point. While it may carry its weight around well, just imagine how much better the IS would have handled if it weighed about 300-400 lbs less.
No matter which way you put it, discounts and all, the IS will be cheaper when purchased in the States.
Thank you again.
PS - How did you get your numbers for PST and GST?
Agreed, but isn't this true for any performance car. Less weight = better performance.
Do you think it was much of a sacrifice stepping down to the IS ?
I'll let you know when I hear about the warranty. The salesman is also looking into getting the car in KPH. Should know the answers tomorrow.
Was a 2001.
Do you think it was much of a sacrifice stepping down to the IS ?
Luxury versus Sport...
What's the federal inspection fee for? You still have to take it to a certified inspector right?
I sacrificed some things in exchange for others. They are such different cars. I am really happy that I made the move. In 5 years my kids will be too big for me to get away with it and I'll go back to the GS.
Dealerships are requiring customers sign a release saying they will not import/export the vehicles to Canada for 1 year from date of initial sale. Manufacturers and dealers are doing this to protect their sales regions.
Regardless of the car's pros, its main flaw, viz. its extremely small and cramped interior, negates the rest. I personally consider the size flaw fatal.
Couple this with arrogant dealers and exhorbitant prices and you basically have a loser of a car. Unless you are a very tiny person with a very big purse . . .
Heard the guages on the new IS350 look awesome at night. How are those shift indicating lights on the dash...I'd like to hear testimonials por favor.
anyway, that's quite a difference in size class between these 2 cars, although I guess the price might be close depending on how they are optioned. the M certainly has a bigger interior!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I agree. I think this car is fairly well priced for what you get. My 01 S4 was $40k back then (nearly fully loaded), and now (5 years later) you can get an IS 350 fully loaded (with tons more cool electronic gadgets and a bigger engine with better fuel economy, etc....) for about $45k - that's not that bad.
Not to mention the best engine,looks,interior,performance,reliability,service etc. etc.
I agree the engine and interior are pretty impressive. However, looks are subjective, and I can just about guarantee you that this car will loose (though it will be close) a C&D comparison of performance (all but straight line performance) to the 330i (at least until they get a MT and on/off switch for VDIM - that's the comparo I want to see).
Is this what you are implying.. are you saying what I think you're saying?
:surprise:
Price - base 250 - in the USA is fair to good, and I would even submit that the loaded 350 is ok. However, ty building one on Lexus Canada's web site to see what an unmitigated ripoff they are foisting on tax-weary Canadians. Also, telling one to compare its price to a comparable BMW is also incorrect since it is BMW and not Lexus who currently dominates this market. The lower players never get to sit on the premium price.
http://www.lexus.ca/lexus/experience/en/home/vehicles/is/veh_group.jsp?model=CK262T&series- =is&year=2006
To be fair, you will find bad apples out of all company's dealerships.
Some of us may also be a person with not too much need for a back seat.
gstois: Congratulations! I don't even know if I want the car or not yet, and I'm still jealous. I know it's potentially hazardous these days, but that smell is intoxicating and at least 10% of the reason I live to buy new.
I had a feeling the ML would be more or less a non-issue with actual use. I have a standard "premium" system in my gen1 IS, plus a fairly demanding ear, and I've been plenty happy.
IS HiPo variant: I recall a comment from Clements before his butt was canned to the effect that such a variant would certainly be studied, actual implementation would be based on selling a business model to Toyota top brass. Based on what our old friend badtoy, a former Toyota insider, posted a number of times, it's certain they're looking at it, but doubtful to reach production except as an AMG competitor program car. I don't think the AMG-style program is ready as yet. By the time it is, other concepts will likely have stolen the money.
Could be wrong, but my bet is the IS gets a few plant changes down the road, but no V8 for a while, if indeed before the next full freshening.
BTW, the seat-fold thang was pretty funny. Who was that guy anyway?
As a matter a fact it is! I just saw a program in regards to all the toxins and offgases in a new vehicle .It sounds like your days of "new smell" are numbered. The manufactures are being pressured to make sudden improvements.
DL
DL
This is not a selling point for me, being that I am more interested in the sound quality of the system and don't often sit in my car to watch movies. We have a rear entertainment system in our SUV for the kids, but mainly use it on long trips while in motion.
You mean this dash?
Compared to this one?
You are losing me here... Both are nice, two-tone, and Toyota/Lexus. Of course you will find certain similarities amongst the same company, but the IS dash is uniquely Lexus.
IS
GS
The pairing of my car and phone is a piece of cake, and so is making calls. I haven't tried to transfer contacts yet.
Here is my issue:
The car has the ability to display the signal and battery strength of the phone.
- The Nokia 6230 that I have displays neither.
- The two Motorola's I have tried (V551 and Razr) show the signal, but not the battery
- The Sony I tried showed the battery, but no signal. It also said that there was no signal and couldn't connect a call. I fussed around with it (crappy phone by the way - very confusing menus) and got it to make a call, but it still didn't show the signal.
Cingular is my carrier. Does anyone know of a phone that will display both the battery and signal strength on the car?
I posted this elsewhere, IMO the C&D comparo was a BMW benefit advert. C&D picked the car which most closely resembled an out and out race car. The BMW handling was superb but none of the creature comforts which most of us have come to expect in these type of cars worked. The TL, Caddy and IS were better all around cars than the BMW, its just that C&D rates their cars solely on all out performance.
DL
"Options" (If you can call it that):
Standard Vehicle: $48,900
Moonroof Package: $51,150
Sport Package: $53,700
Luxury Package: $54,550
and then here we go... drumroll for the nav/ML...
Luxury w/Nav Package: $59,700!
Why can't we get Nav with sport, or at least even ML? Why do we have to pay an extra $10,000 to get something that we want which only costs $2,000?
Big mistake, Lexus!
That goes to show that the C&D comparo is worthless. What kind objective test would let a car that did not even finish all the tests to win a comparo? How many winners do you know have won races by not finishing the race at all? The reviewers already made up their minds before tallying the points, if not before gathering the cars to begin with.
Aside from a residence, car-buying is the single most subjective purchase any of us will ever undertake. Even the most analytical of us is horrendously subjective in our car purchase.
Perhaps the C&D team, based on all their previous experience with BMWs decided the issues at their comparo were anecdotal, and treated them that way, by informing their readers while still testing the key aspects of the car; the driving aspects. Perhaps.
Doesn't mean I put that much weight on a C&D review of any car, just means that called it as they saw it right down the line. I won't know until I drive it if they were right or wrong.
In regards to the electrical problems, IMO this is not what the test is about. We will all go out and compare the cars for ourselves from a subjective appearance and functionality standpoint. What the mags are supposed to do is push the car to its maximum limits for an extreme evaluation of its performance - something none of us can do on a test drive, but which a few of us may do later on our own at the track.
Also, you have to keep in mind, C&D editors just lust over BMW to a rediculous degree - it's almost embarrasing reading their stuff over the years, with how they just think the steering and handling of BMWs is sooooo much better than anyone else in the universe. They really should try and be just a little more objective.
I agree with your analysis based on BMW performance and/or C&D lack of objectivity, however, if the magazine did an individual test of the BMW or any other make, and had the kind of issues with electrics and other creature comforts would they have spared the criticism? I think not. As much as C&D loves the Bimmers in any form, they would be forced to be critical of the problems which arose. As a matter of fact (going from memory) I believe they did mention that these were not one off problems but that they encountered them in previous BMW tests.
Let's not get into a "structural integrity of folding seats" discussion here. I agree that buying a car is probably the most subjective purchase one can make and it's entirely how the person perceives the total package.
There is a definite power advantage with the Lexus, but they don’t always go for all-out power; many years ago I remember the NSX would always win comparisons, but it usually had the least power. I also recall a BMW loosing (once
The reviewers are nothing special just a bunch of jerks (like us) that drive expensive cars fast.
I believe that they take an average of all the reviewer’s results. And there are no “deal-breakers”; they just give it a rating so not having a manual may be a deal-breaker or one interior design may be a deal-breaker for us but not for them.
I personally would like to see a long-term comparison test since I plan on keeping an automobile for longer than a weekend
Well, everyone needs a front seat and the front seat in this rig is no great shakes, either. One gets the distinct impression that one has been slotted into a clam shell with far too little space between the left elbow and the door, between the right elbow and the console, and as regards the leg space, it is long enough but not wide enough, particularly in the AWD with the "hump" on the left of the transmission tunnel protruding into the right leg. I think the car is an interior spatial disaster.
And for all this you get to pay a truly exhorbitant and unreasonable price in Canadian dollars, particularly if you want ML and navigation.
Very good way of putting it. A car still needs to be able to drive. I mean, what use is grading a sport sedan if the car can't even perform the most basic functions of a car?
The review was clearly a sham, not that it matters :P
Not everyone feels the way that you do. I think that my 04' Corolla's front seats are not too comfortable, but others think it is comfortable.
I find that the front seats in the IS to be very, very nice, even in the IS 250 AWD. I am 5'11" 195 lbs, 32" waist, size 13 shoes; not a small pups.
I won't argue the way you feel about your comfort level, though. That's your opinion and I won't try to steal it from you!
Yea, pricing is kinda retarded. Why can't we get sport with nav?! That is beyond me...