I agree, Mazda3 is a great drivers car for someone on a budget...but there are also other choices out there for 17-20k (sentra SE-R, tC, etc). In no way do these cars compare to IS300/TSX, although that doesn't necessarily stop someone from cross-shopping them.
tsx and alpha summed it up pretty well. A 30s something mid-level executive isnt going to pull up next to the big wigs in a boosted Mazda3 with a 3" exhaust and some spinners. 0-60 drag races arent the only thing that seperates one car from another. There are plenty of inexpensive, small cars, including Toyota's own Corolla XRS that could outrun a Lexus ES330 any day of the week. You wont see ES owners trading for a Corolla, though.
. The people that can afford it don't want clear taillights, the questionable interior, and a boy-racer image.
These items combined with the lack of a 6th gear (or just better gas mileage) were the only factors that kept an IS300 from my garage. Otherwise, I really like the car.
An article in this week's Automotive News (an industry trade magazine) confirms what I first mentioned back in August (told to me by the Lexus regional GM at the Lexus driving event): The new IS will have a choice of a 2.5 V6 and a 3.5 V6. Not mentioned in the article, but pretty much confirmed, is that the AWD option will only be available with the 2.5.
The article also mentions the new GS will have a 3.5 V6 or 4.6 V8, which contradicts already-published data that says it will be a 3.0 V6 and 4.3 V8.
lenscap... Any discussion about transmissions? Praying it has a 6-speed manual, and a real one with my leg working the clutch, not an electro-hydraulic one.
Yep. Both G35 and TL offer 6 speeds, so if the IS makes its debut with an automatic only AGAIN, it would be a dumb move akin to France trusting the maginot line in WW2.
I am not as familiar with the Lexus product life cycle as I am with Honda and Acura Products, but I am extremely interested in what is coming next on the 06 IS350. Like Dewey (I believe it was?), I tend to keep my vehicles a long time (ie: 10-15 years) so I would rather get the best combination of features for the money, including looks, Lexus reliability, RWD, LSD, 6spd manual, and 270 plus HP in a vehicle between the size of TL and G35, but maybe weighing only 3000-3200 pounds. I don't "need" leather seats or dual zone climate, but the interior has got to look good with tight fit and finish (ie: TL), whether or not one calls it "luxury". If the exterior also looks good, I'll pull the trigger, and hope for the best over the next long haul (even though I hate buying the first model year of any car because of the reliability problem - except maybe Lexus?). However, I'm not too sure how Lexus does things as far as really leaking facts out to the public. So far, the speculation is crazy. If they are anything like Honda, we won't know Jack until the week before launch because of the Honda Secrecy Policy.
Unfortunately, Toyota is just like Honda in that respect. Even more so, really. There was a lot more pre-launch info about RL than there is about GS. Even now there isnt much known about GS other than what it looks like, and theres no IS info at all.
I wouldnt worry about first year production problems with a Lexus. There isnt a car on the planet built better.
HOPEFULLY, the 280 HP 2006 Avalon V6 will find a home here (and in the 2006 GS, even though it is ugly). I guess a Hybrid 3.5 would produce around 350HP.
How strong is the 2.5 supposed to be? 220HP? I guess the 3.5 will cost around $34k?
The 3.5 in the GS seems to be the engine Lexus will use, and was reported in the Automotive News article I mentioned above. The V8 will, according to the article, be a 4.6. Automotive News is a dealer trade magazine and is very reputable, it is not some rag publication.
Also, check below for a list of very recent automotive trademark filings which include the GS 350, GS 460 and GS 450h:
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sorter... The IS300, like the BMW 325i, is a serious all around sport sedan. It is NOT designed to do smoky burnouts or stoplight racing. It is designed to be fun to drive on a variety of roads (esp. hilly and curvy), while retaining sufficient practicality for family use.
Just take the RWD IS300 and the FWD Scion TC out for a serious test drive on the same roads.
To get the most out of the IS, get one with the 5-speed manual and LSD. Unfortunately, Lexus dropped LSD from the manuals in '05, so you'd have to find an '04 or '03.
And motortrend reports the GS getting the 3.3 Liter V6...so who really knows! We just have to wait and see. I don't see a problem with using a 3.5 and 4.3. Look at Infiniti FX, also the nex generation Infiniti M will use both 3.5 and 4.5 engines.
The IS300 technically is not underpowered. The car has the same engine, and weighs significantly less than the SC300 or GS300, so it SHOULD be a lot faster than it actually turned out to be. The IS300's lack of 0-60 performance seems to result from poorly implemented gearing.
Tsx, its definitely not getting the 3.3L. That engine is a bored out version of the 3.0L V6, the old one, which dates back to 1993 or so. Indications seem to be that the 3.3L engine will eventually disappear when Toyota's new V6(V6s?) make its\their debuts. Toyota has already applied for a trademark for RX350, which means other cars using the current 3.3L will most likely switch to that engine as well.
The problem with using 3.5 and 4.3 in the GS is the power is just too close. The FX35 makes 280hp, and the FX45 makes 315, a 35hp difference. The M35 makes 280hp, and the M45 makes 335, a difference of 55hp. A GS350 would make about 280hp, and the GS430 only 300hp. Just 20hp. Thats simply to close. The extra weight of the V8 in that case would probably make them identical in 0-60, or make the GS350 faster, just like the A6 2.7T was.
I didn't say I thought the GS will be getting the 3.3 L. I just said motortrend said that, and I was just making a point that no one really knows what engines it will use.
The flaw in your statement (no 3.5) is that you fail to recognize the second major aspect of engine power TORQUE. While a 3.5 liter engine may make 280 hp, it might only make 260 lb/ft or tork. On the other hand a 4.5 Liter V8 will make 315 hp but 330 lb/ft of torque. that is a difference of 35 hp and 70 lb/ft, and will not steer people away from buying the V8 because you only get 35 more hp for your dollar. People buying V8 engine sedans aren't too concerned with economy. So in your view it's ok for infiniti to use 3.5 and 4.5 engines but not Lexus? Have you checked the sales volume of FX35/45 lately?
The Audi A6 2.7T made 250hp and 258ft.lbs of torque. The A6 4.2 made 300hp and 295ft.lbs of torque. With all that extra hp and torque the A6 4.2 should be a lot faster, right? Nope. It was slower. Assuming the Lexus makes 280hp and 270ft.lbs of torque like Infinti's 3.5L, you've got 20hp and 55ft.lbs of torque. Not enough to offset a couple of hundred pounds of V8 heft, or justify a $10K price increase. Nobody bought A6 4.2s.
You are corret and I'm not disagreeing with your A6 example, but look at this for FX35/45, where the V8 is faster (and only 100 pounds more than the FX35). Also Lexus may go with the 4.6 liter V8 as mentioned above. This would produce something like 340/360. It all comes down to opinions, and mine is that if the IS is getting the 3.5, then so will the GS. they will not give the GS a 3.0 and the IS a 3.5. It doesn't make sense.
Right now, for the GS, there are a lot of conflicting information. There is still possibility of a Inline 6 3.0L (in Autoshow they said it was a V6). That would means not much change from current except a minor increase of power. Transmission will probably be 6 speed. You would think by now someone would have spyed one with the hood up.
The 3.0L inline is definitely getting axed. Theres no way Toyota would continue to use it, its the oldest V6 in Toyota's inventory, with an outdated twin-cam, steel block design. A new GS will only add pounds, and using the weakest, oldest V6 in the segment again would be a really dumb move against M35 and RL.
The transmition will be LS430's close-ratio six speed automatic with tiptronic.
That's cool, that they have plans to use those new names! Hope it all adds up to somethin'
Obviously, if they use the 3.5, they won't stick to a 300HP 4.3. The way I see it, the 745i is getting a facelift next year, and probably a displacement upgrade. Mercedes is already at 5 liters! And the LS is due for redesign in fall of '06, so they have something up their sleeve
What's cool bout Lexus is they have already beaten the Germans, and haven't made their cars really powerful or super sexy....yet! The best is yet to come! After the GS of course.
I hate how they killed any buzz on the GS, putting over a massaged V6, and a carryover V8. They should've said nothing about the new engines, and let our imaginations run wild! I should've been in marketing!
How is the 3.0L 245 horse V6 that is to debut in the GS a "massaged" engine? Its not related to any of Toyota's other powerplants.... If anything, the 3.5L that is constantly bantered about... is a "massaged" engine- a destroked, high rev version of the 4.0L in the Taco/4Runner.
dewey... Hard to measure. But compare BMW and MB sales in USA in 1985 to today. And compare market share. Think Lexus has done more in less than 20 years than BMW or MB did in 40 years!
BMW and MB took a pounding from Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura in the 1980s. They had to drop prices, improve product, and improve dealer service. They still haven't cauthut up on reliability.
The latest info says that a redesigned LS will get a new 5.0L V8 for its '07 redesign. That most likely means GS will become GS350 and GS500 for that year, but for now, its going to be GS300 and GS430, just like all of the info has been saying. The 3.0L V6 in GS is an all new engine, with variable valve on both intake and exhaust valves. Its not related to the old 3.0LV, or its 3.3L replacement.
Lexus does very well in the US, but its strength is based around RX, ES, and LS. Lexus still does poorly in Europe. I dont think the Germans are having nightmares just yet.
I'd wait 'til the new engines are ready before releasing the GS.
No reason to pull a Ford 500, and have everyone say it's good at this and that, but the thing has no heart, then everyone crosses it off their list then they have to used the engines as a resesitator. That would be uncommonly bad strategy on their part.
Not that Lexus hasn't made missteps before with the performance sedans they sell.
It seems they are taking more care in re-doing the IS than the GS. The ook is uninspired/unfinished, and the engines are wanting, and the tech is piece meal.
That would mean like a 9 year run for GS. The last time Lexus let a car sit on the market for 9 years, the results were disasterous. What Lexus is doing with the new GS isnt that unusual. 530i is getting a new IL6 soon. The just refreshed C320 will become C350 soon. Plus, with both of its rivals introducing new cars, doing nothing would be much worse.
If it were really a Ford 500 situation, that would mean carrying over the old inline, just as Ford kept the Duratec and threw a CVT at it to try and make it perform better. Lexus isnt doing that. The 3.0L is a new, high tech engine. Its power isnt class leading, but paired with LS430's six-speed, it should at least be competitive with E320, A6 3.2, and 525\530.
for market share---the prize goes to Lexus(its easy to grow from zero to something .Excluding trucks does the Lexus still beat BMW/MB? I dont know the US stats, only Canadian stats).
MB/BMW sales did remarkably well since the 80s. NO signs of weakness based on sales growth.
Audi despite current weakness due to aged engines/models---has done remarkably well sales growth compared to that bleak period of 60 minutes coverage during the 80s(the facts were as objective as Dan Rather's famous Bush service findings)
Better sales growth and reliability alone does not create a German beater. The cars that creates the greatest excitement in terms of performance handling will be the winner. And that title belongs to BMW and Porsche.
Audi and Mercedes may be a different story, but that is even debatable! But not debatable for me--I would prefer a Lexus. In fact I would prefer a no frills Honda. I have two friends who drive new Audis and family members who drive new Mercedes vehicles---(all of them are not happy with the frequent service visits).
In otherwords German marques are not not invincible. In fact every German Auto executive should read case studies on Jaguar during the 70s and 80s to see what reliability can do to prestige.
I'm getting really annoyed here that we still don't have any information on the new IS. Does anyone have an idea of which Auto Show they might finally show the car? My cities show is in 2 weeks.
I don't think the IS will be shown in Detroit according to news. It is due later this year, so I think they will show it later in NY or Chicago. Most likely Chicago.
I feel you, but unless they're planning to release a three engine lineup, this engine won't gain the traction to make up the sales difference betwen the GS and the e-CLASS, 5-series.
Now let's say the 245HP engine is the base, and competes with the 210HP 2006 525i, THEN Lexus introduces a 3.5 with 280-290HP to compete with te 255HP 530i, THEN you have the 4.6 going against the 545i, then you have something real to go to war with.
At face value, the new 3.0 is not going to stimulate much interest in a line that needs shock value against two of the toughest competitors on the market.
Lexus has a grand scheme. Maybe in Detroit we'll learn more about it.
You correctly stated Lexus plan, IMO, with the 2.5L, 3.5L and 4.6L. Adding to this is the projected 5.0L in the 2007 LS. That would make 4 *new* engines to be launched alongside the LF-S starting MY2006. My money is on the GS getting the 3.5L (and AWD), 4.6L and 4.5H (hybrid); the IS getting the 2.5L (and AWD) and 3.5L (no brainer, since everyone pretty much accepted this), and the LS getting the 5L and a hybrid engine (maybe the 4.5H).
Based on the bashing they got in 2001 for not having a manual, plus the readily available manual G and TL competition, I think (hope) that Lexus wouldnt be dumb enough to launch the IS without a stick AGAIN.
Oh... well in that case we already know what it looks like (not a maxima) and there wont be a stick. An SMG is very possible, but no conventional stick.
Comments
These items combined with the lack of a 6th gear (or just better gas mileage) were the only factors that kept an IS300 from my garage. Otherwise, I really like the car.
The article also mentions the new GS will have a 3.5 V6 or 4.6 V8, which contradicts already-published data that says it will be a 3.0 V6 and 4.3 V8.
I wouldnt worry about first year production problems with a Lexus. There isnt a car on the planet built better.
How strong is the 2.5 supposed to be? 220HP? I guess the 3.5 will cost around $34k?
DrFill
Also, check below for a list of very recent automotive trademark filings which include the GS 350, GS 460 and GS 450h:
http://www.auto-report.net/index.html?tm200402.html
http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/townhallchat.html
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Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
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Review your vehicle
Just take the RWD IS300 and the FWD Scion TC out for a serious test drive on the same roads.
To get the most out of the IS, get one with the 5-speed manual and LSD. Unfortunately, Lexus dropped LSD from the manuals in '05, so you'd have to find an '04 or '03.
Tsx, its definitely not getting the 3.3L. That engine is a bored out version of the 3.0L V6, the old one, which dates back to 1993 or so. Indications seem to be that the 3.3L engine will eventually disappear when Toyota's new V6(V6s?) make its\their debuts. Toyota has already applied for a trademark for RX350, which means other cars using the current 3.3L will most likely switch to that engine as well.
The problem with using 3.5 and 4.3 in the GS is the power is just too close. The FX35 makes 280hp, and the FX45 makes 315, a 35hp difference. The M35 makes 280hp, and the M45 makes 335, a difference of 55hp. A GS350 would make about 280hp, and the GS430 only 300hp. Just 20hp. Thats simply to close. The extra weight of the V8 in that case would probably make them identical in 0-60, or make the GS350 faster, just like the A6 2.7T was.
The flaw in your statement (no 3.5) is that you fail to recognize the second major aspect of engine power TORQUE. While a 3.5 liter engine may make 280 hp, it might only make 260 lb/ft or tork. On the other hand a 4.5 Liter V8 will make 315 hp but 330 lb/ft of torque. that is a difference of 35 hp and 70 lb/ft, and will not steer people away from buying the V8 because you only get 35 more hp for your dollar. People buying V8 engine sedans aren't too concerned with economy. So in your view it's ok for infiniti to use 3.5 and 4.5 engines but not Lexus? Have you checked the sales volume of FX35/45 lately?
The transmition will be LS430's close-ratio six speed automatic with tiptronic.
Obviously, if they use the 3.5, they won't stick to a 300HP 4.3. The way I see it, the 745i is getting a facelift next year, and probably a displacement upgrade. Mercedes is already at 5 liters! And the LS is due for redesign in fall of '06, so they have something up their sleeve
What's cool bout Lexus is they have already beaten the Germans, and haven't made their cars really powerful or super sexy....yet! The best is yet to come! After the GS of course.
I hate how they killed any buzz on the GS, putting over a massaged V6, and a carryover V8. They should've said nothing about the new engines, and let our imaginations run wild! I should've been in marketing!
DrFill
~alpha
Lexus has beaten the Germans? That is news to me!
What do you know about Lexus beating Germans that the world does not know(other than a few devoted Lexus fans)
BMW and MB took a pounding from Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura in the 1980s. They had to drop prices, improve product, and improve dealer service. They still haven't cauthut up on reliability.
Lexus does very well in the US, but its strength is based around RX, ES, and LS. Lexus still does poorly in Europe. I dont think the Germans are having nightmares just yet.
No reason to pull a Ford 500, and have everyone say it's good at this and that, but the thing has no heart, then everyone crosses it off their list then they have to used the engines as a resesitator. That would be uncommonly bad strategy on their part.
Not that Lexus hasn't made missteps before with the performance sedans they sell.
It seems they are taking more care in re-doing the IS than the GS. The ook is uninspired/unfinished, and the engines are wanting, and the tech is piece meal.
DrFill
If it were really a Ford 500 situation, that would mean carrying over the old inline, just as Ford kept the Duratec and threw a CVT at it to try and make it perform better. Lexus isnt doing that. The 3.0L is a new, high tech engine. Its power isnt class leading, but paired with LS430's six-speed, it should at least be competitive with E320, A6 3.2, and 525\530.
for reliability---the prize goes to Lexus.
for market share---the prize goes to Lexus(its easy to grow from zero to something .Excluding trucks does the Lexus still beat BMW/MB? I dont know the US stats, only Canadian stats).
MB/BMW sales did remarkably well since the 80s. NO signs of weakness based on sales growth.
Audi despite current weakness due to aged engines/models---has done remarkably well sales growth compared to that bleak period of 60 minutes coverage during the 80s(the facts were as objective as Dan Rather's famous Bush service findings)
Better sales growth and reliability alone does not create a German beater. The cars that creates the greatest excitement in terms of performance handling will be the winner. And that title belongs to BMW and Porsche.
Audi and Mercedes may be a different story, but that is even debatable! But not debatable for me--I would prefer a Lexus. In fact I would prefer a no frills Honda. I have two friends who drive new Audis and family members who drive new Mercedes vehicles---(all of them are not happy with the frequent service visits).
In otherwords German marques are not not invincible. In fact every German Auto executive should read case studies on Jaguar during the 70s and 80s to see what reliability can do to prestige.
Audi and MB is currently weak in sales. But what I am talking about is their growth in the past 20 years.
All automakers, even Lexus face times of trials and tribulations. And most automakers do recover when they introduce new and exciting models.
This tends to be the cyclical nature of the industry and in rare casea are they permanent, Lincoln excepted . Even Cadillac is re-inventing itself.
Lexus Online Service Histroy! What a great idea.
http://www.investors.com/breakingnews.asp?journalid=24713472
Now let's say the 245HP engine is the base, and competes with the 210HP 2006 525i, THEN Lexus introduces a 3.5 with 280-290HP to compete with te 255HP 530i, THEN you have the 4.6 going against the 545i, then you have something real to go to war with.
At face value, the new 3.0 is not going to stimulate much interest in a line that needs shock value against two of the toughest competitors on the market.
Lexus has a grand scheme. Maybe in Detroit we'll learn more about it.
DrFill
DrFill
DrFill
~alpha
http://motortrend.com/features/news/112_news041222_lexustoyota/