Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

lexusguy

It sounds like its just going to be an updated GX for '05.

alpha01

Right right. Its just a revision to the GX line, adding the same 4.7L V8 that the 4Runner is using as of December production. MT is a bit odd... its not really a debut.

 

~alpha

bubble_gum

Hey guys,

 

I'm new here and I look forward to seeing the new IS350.

 

I hope it makes its debut in next year's NYC Auto Show.

 

Anyone from NYC?

 

Take care.

tsx24

We're hoping detroits auto show next week.

bubble_gum

Thanks for your reply.

 

I sure hope so too.

drfill

Lexus would've said if it would be at Detroit's show, so it won't be there. As the last major US car show before the fall, I'd bet the new IS makes it there (it can make it anywhere !

 

  The concept debuted there last year, so... ipso factso...

 

  I guess the V8/convertible will show for '08. A coupe for '07?

 

  DrFill

bubble_gum

Hey DrFill,

 

It's nice to see a fellow New Yauker here.

 

Our patience (especially mine) with Lexus is growing thin. lol

 

Damn Lexus, hurry up!

lexusguy

Lexus is planning it perfectly. Acura has already laid all off its cards on the table. Lexus knows Mercedes and BMW have new cars coming in the next few years, and they are going to launch at the same time to steal as much German thunder as possible. Meanwhile Honda will have nothing.

dewey

"Meanwhile Honda will have nothing. "

 

Honda or Acura never really was much of a threat to Lexus to begin with!

 

Although that may change!

Have you seen their latest offering: The RL. Or for the crossover crowd the new Acura RDX. Will the future Camry-based Lexus ES compete with the current Accord-based Acura TL. Unlikely!

 

Acura's Achille's Heel has always been it's FWD performance vehicles. Acura could transform into a formidable competitor to Lexus if the AWD system is adopted on the TL and TSX(especially if you live in a more frigid habitat as I do in Canada). The RL AWD system has gotten rave reviews and is considered the best in the industry.

 

The above points indicates that Honda's cupboard is not exactly bare!

lexusguy

I've seen the RL. The problem is its already out, as are TSX and TL. Lexus has several new cars coming in the next few years, and Acura will have nothing new to introduce. The RDX will slot below MDX, in a price range that Infiniti and Lexus arent interested in dipping down to.

 

The Camry-based ES has never competed with TL, or any Acura product really, save perhaps the old RL. The ES is sort of in a class by itself. Lexus already competes with TL with the IS300, and while the IS was never a big hit, the all new IS350 should be quite a big deal, with a performance sedan to properly fight TL and G35, as well as a retractable hard top to fight G35 coupe as well as SLK350.

 

Then you have the all new GS, with several new engines and a hybrid coming, the all new LS, also with a hybrid and possible LWB coming, and Acura has... what, exactly? Also, dont forget the mysterious $100K Lexus V-10 powered supercar. Acura, on the other hand, has let the NSX twist in the wind for 15 years now.

oac

The next IS will compete with the 325/330, G35, A4, and TL. If Lexus properly manages this re-introduction, it should win some market share from BMW and/or G35. But Lexus needs to hurry up and get these new releases out soonest. The RX400H has had too many false starts already !!!

argelius

Also, as someone who is in the market for a 3-series type car, Lexus really needs to be more up front about when their new IS is coming out...along with "leaking" some pictures of it. With the new IS being nothing more than rumored, it'll be hard not to get the new 3-series (or A4) with no idea of what the IS actually will look like (let alone when it will be available...)

dewey

As I said Acura never really competed with Lexus!

Each of their cars are different and target a different market segment.

 

Even with a superior product line by Lexus, there may be no threat to Acura. Acura has always provided cars at a lower price point than Lexus and this is what made Acuara survive and thrive up to now!

 

BUT as I said if the TSX(a new model should be out in a few years) and TL have AWD, then for the first time Acura may provide Lexus with a real challenge(even if Lexus has newer product lines in the upcoming years).

 

My view about the RDX is that if Honda is smart enough to provide it with a hybrid engine, then this vehicle will be one hot item. Honda should provide details in the Detroit Auto Show. Read the following description of the hybrid RDX and I can tell you this vehicle would excite even non cross- over shoppers. Maybe even Rx shoppers:

http://www.difflock.com/buyersguide/onthehorizon/acura_RDX.shtml

 

glenford

Well, it's an interesting concept to say that the maker who has cars NOW has nothing, and the one who has cars LATER has the advantage. I would think that it works the other way around.

 

Having "nothing to introduce", versus "only" improving admired and successful cars, can't be all bad. Tim

lexusguy

We'll just have to wait and see if Acura's current line up has enough star quality to still get anybody into the showrooms when Japan's other big two are introducing all this new glitz.

glenford

Well, I admit that I drove TSX and looked at TL, but didn't buy them, and am looking forward to the GS300 and potential new IS. You may be right.

tsx24

I don't think Acura will sit on their hands for 5 years and just leave these cars to whatever fate they have. I think starting in 06-07 they will start offering the RLs SH-AWD on TL and TSX to negate the RWD/FWD argument. We will also see a new RSX in 06-07, as well as RDX (smaller MDX crossover suv, similiar to infiniti FX35). We also might see an implementation of hybrid technology on these vehicles to increase torque/performance, as all of their cars seem to be low on torque compared to the competition. TSX (166) TL (238) RL (260)

dewey

The one flaw with Honda/Acura is that they introduce some of the best performance machines in the industry or in their market segments and then slowly lets them die off(no redesigns and will wait till demand dies out). Examples are NSX and S2000(heard rumors that both will be discontinued). Remember the Prelude and the Honda CRX(I know the CRX cannot compare with luxury marques---but when I drove it in the 80's I could not think of a more fun car to drive).

 

Despite the above, I am sure Acura will do just fine in future years--there are quite a number of Acura loyalists out there.

 

Or

Kirstie_H

Please stay focused on the Lexus IS - this isn't a comparisons discussion. Thanks.

riez

Latest issue of Motor Trend has a very, very small news piece on the upcoming IS. They report October 2005 premier at Tokyo Show and that the new IS will be "more conservative".

dewey

  

MY mistake!

I read NSX rumors awhile ago. OLD NEWS IS NO NEWS.

S200o is not doing fine! Please refer to s2000 sales drop on the site below! Heard s2000 will not be redesigned!

 

http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000910026073/

  

CRX in other markets! A pity for North America!

 

IS300 being more conservative! Sounds like they are trying to make the IS more like a BMW!

argelius

<<more conservative>>

 

A Lexus with conservative styling? Gasp!

lexusguy

"I don't think Acura will sit on their hands for 5 years and just leave these cars to whatever fate they have."

 

Its just that typically thats EXACTLY what Acura does. The CL, TL, and RL sat uncompetitive and largely unchanged for quite a long time. The NSX has been around even longer than the previous Mercedes SL. Everybody has been saying that it would be great for TSX and TL to get AWD, but wheres the official info (or even industry rumors?) so far there's nothing to indicate that Acura has any plans to do that.

 

As for the IS, everybody wants it to go more conservative. A Toyota Altezza designed for Japanese kids makes a poor Lexus. They need a G35 killer, and the current car with its boy racer styling is not that.

tsx24

Typically yes, and typically no. I agree the RL sat for a long time along with the NSX. But are you forgetting the TL/CL type S? They will learn from their mistakes on the RL. Between the IMA (hybrid motor), and SH-AWD, and other technologies they employ, I highly doubt their sedan trio will be left to rot for 5 years. Please remember the TSX has only been out 2 years, and the TL only one year, and Honda is very closed liped about new information. I suspect to see 3rd-4th year updates.

dewey

"They need a G35 killer, and the current car with its boy racer styling is not that."

 

Death to the youthful boy racer. Birth of a vehicle whose luxury will smother and kill off any resemblence of the small sport-performance vehicle that the IS was suppose to be! That is what I call a tragic birth !

 

 

R.I.P.

lexusguy

Toyota is not a company thats interested in "niche" vehicles. The current IS may have a loyal following, its just too small for Toyota to care. They would rather sell a TL\G35 fighter, and sell alot more of them. Its just how the company is run.

dewey

You speak from a marketing perspective.

I speak from a enthusiast perspective.

 

Both perspectives do not have to be inconsistent! As the BMW 3 series gets bigger and more luxurious(shame on BMW), it is redeeming itself by introducing a small 1 series that reflect the attributes that an enthusiast seeks. I am talking specifically about the upcoming BMW M2(based on the 1 series)

lexusguy

Audi and Mercedes are jumping on the compact bandwagon as well. Im not sure its a good idea though. Sure the A3 and A class sell just fine in Europe, but this isnt Europe, and when people go to buy an S600 or A8 W-12, the last thing they expect or want is some snotty teenagers around. If you can get the 3-pointed star for $20 grand, what happens to the brand cachet? Lexus has stated they are not interested in selling cars below $30K, so I wouldnt expect a competitor to the "luxury hatches" from them.

dewey

"they expect or want is some snotty teenagers around."

 

There are millions of snotty teenagers, snotty Generation Yers and Xers, snotty baby boomers, snotty seniors who just yearn to drive a sporty small and exciting car in North America and every continent on this planet(maybe not in Antarctica--too slippery for performance cars).

 

Unlike Lexus which from the beginning tried to market itself with snob-appeal, BMW has been highly inconsistent. In the 60's it started selling 3 wheel vehicles in N. America, which were among the cheapest in the industry. In the 70s they sold great performance vehicles at reasonable prices without the luxury pretensions. In the 80's BMW became tainted by the Yuppie craze and luxury became an issue until today. I just hope BMW will reinvent itself again and focus on building the best performance cars without the snob appeal (signs of hope with the 1 series). This approach has worked in Europe and Asia---who is to say it will not work in N. AMerica?

lexusguy

Because we are such status seekers in the US. In Germany some people actually will take the badges off of their S classes to be more inconspicuous. The USA is the land of gold packages and 20" "gauranteed to blind passers-by" chrome rims. Thats why the Phaeton was doomed to fail from the start in the US. In Europe the case for it actually made sense, a luxury car for people that dont want the typical luxury car. Who in the US would take a VW badge over a BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, or even VW's own Audi?

 

BMW has become one of the highest status badges in the land. Reliability sure isnt the reason BMW resale is so high. When anybody can afford a BMW, the phrase "I drive a BMW" starts to lose its appeal, and the crowd that drives BMWs for the badge rather than their prowess at the art of driving makes up a large chunk of BMW sales in the US.

Kirstie_H

Back to the IS, folks. This isn't a discussion about brand image.

drfill

I honesty don't know, besides engines, what Toyota plans for the new one. It's design didn't seem all that different from the current car, very evolutionary. I expect a VERY different interior, but a T fighter would've been the LF-S concept, which may prelude the next ES or LS.

 

  Seems to me the IS main competition will be German, not Japanese.

 

  And I stake my claim as the only man alive who thinks the current 5 MUCH better looking than the now-undisguised 2006 325i. THank You! I think there is a opening for Lexus here.

 

  DrFill

tsx24

It's a difficult thing to try to make a car more luxurious, without taking away from it's sporting intentions. Trying to make a car quieter inside, without detaching the feel of the road. Each driver's idea of the perfect balance of luxury/sport is different, so we'll see how many of those drivers Lexus can please with the new IS. Some here have already expressed disappointment that the Inline 6 is gone. Personally I could care less about the engine configuration as long as it's smooth in delivery, and offers good power etc.

oac

That the IS remains an *entry lux* car for Lexus. At $30K-ish price point, expectation need to be tempered. Lexus already promised that the next IS will be a worthy competition to Germany's best, be it the 3 or A4. I will expect the new 2.5L or 3.5L engines will be smoother than the current I-6, and the 6-speed manumatic shifter, chassis and the tranny setup will probably deliver the sporty handling that should compete against the 3/A4. Throw in a vert, coupe, sedan and AWD or hybrid options, then you probably will have a worthy competitor to the Germans. Will Lexus deliver ? I'll put my money on TMC; afterall they didn't get to be the #1 luxury nameplate in the US within 15 years for nothing. They'll deliver and smile all the way to the bank too with their next releases - RX, GS, IS, LS, GX, LX, JX, and ES.

tsx24

I hope you are right, because I'll be in line for that!

lexusguy

Keep in mind, Lexus got to its current positon with basically ZERO competition from Acura or Infiniti. Acura made bland $20-30K cars, and Infiniti basically had rebadged Nissans and some garbage. Thats not the case anymore. Lexus cant assume that its only competiton is Audi, BMW, and Mercedes. The RL debuted to strong sales, and I predict that Infiniti sales will be stronger still. Neither of them is having any trouble selling G35s and TLs either.

dewey

"expressed disappointment that the Inline 6 is gone"

 

The removal of the Inline 6 is what determines many to purchase or not to purchase a IS. Without an inline6, the BMW3 series will maintain its competitive advantage in what has been its advantage in the past: Benchmark performance.

 

The lack of an inline 6 for an IS will simply throw it in a pool of sharks(G35 ,TL and STS) with little competitive advantage.

 

Competitive advantage is based on what cannot be easily duplicated by other automakers. If you want an example of this take styling for instance(considered one of the most compelling factors in purchasing a car. A new beautifully styled IS is not really an advantage when it can be easily copied by Ford. Please refer to the site below:

 

http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000873026029/

drfill

That diminishes their accomplishment not one iota! This restructuring of the luxuy car paradigm and to reestablishing what a luxury car buyer can expect in sales, service, quality, ergonomics, and durability is easily the greatest impact on the automobile industry since the oil crisis of the 70s.

 

   MT missed the boat with their Top 50 execs list. The auto industry NOW revolves around what Toyota is doing, what they can do, and what they will do from now on. Toyota has set the market in hybrid tech/economy, luxury car sale, service, quality, corporate efficiency, factory flexibility, breath of product, the legendary TMS production system, brand image, it just goes on and on.

 

   Acura's and Infiniti's failings just show they didn't dream big enough. Acura only came out first because they had smaller dreams, an inflated Accord will only take you so far.

 

   Nissan had the right idea, maybe even the right product, but no plan, no marketing, no moxie to pull it off.

 

   This period in time (1990-2010) will go down in history as the Age of Toyota! Toyota rules from here on out.

 

   It's too late for Ford to keep up, GM seems to have just enough of a lead to stay with them. I wish then luck. They will need it.

 

  One more ting.

 

  I don't sweat losing the inline-6. It didn't get the IS very far. Toyota has been very sucessful going their own way. The multiple models, potential 4 engine lineup, upgraded marketing and design, and feeding off the traffic and momentum of the rest of the lineup should bode well for what I call "Lexus IS: Reloaded".

 

  Ford can copy a hybrid system, but they can't copy it's success. Toyota will sleep soundly tonight. So will I.

   

     

   DrFill

dewey

Acura's sales this year were a record high!

 

Infiniti sales these past years grew at a far faster rate than Lexus!

 

Nissan is currently the fastest growing car company in the world--sales are growing so fast they cant even find enough steel to build their cars! Nissan has the highest profit margins in the industry!

 

Is GM toast? Take a look at this:

 

http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000597026670/

 

Yes a potential diesel-hybrid Saturn! This certainly may reinvent hybrid competition? In fact this is the first time in my life when I saw a GM and wanted to buy a GM!

 

 

If these trends continue Toyota will have every reason to sweat until 2010 and beyond! Never assume past success gurantees future success! I am sure Toyota management has that philosophy memorized!

speedlux

"If these trends continue Toyota will have every reason to sweat until 2010 and beyond! Never assume past success gurantees future success"

 

Yep, toyota will be #1 in 2008 by sitting around and counting their profit. Or hanging out with Ford, Nissan, VW and let GM drive by with their Hybrid, LOL.

drfill

This just in:

 

  Nissan and Ford only have Hybrid programs because Toyota says so..........

 

  Nissan sales skyrocket! They go from loud snoring to mild REM-sleep.........

 

  Infiniti sells a car for over $40,000......makes April 1st company holiday

 

  Acura builds a great V6 sedan......and then builds a second for $15k more.........the 3rd one will be really nice.......

  

  GM reintroduces Soltice concept.......at same time Toyota builds three new models since 1st Solstice concept........taking over the World in the process........

 

  Solstice does well in clinics.......Acura/Cadillac get AWD........

 

  Lexus gets tired of ruling Luxury car market......begins Hybrid and Sports Car program.........

 

  BMW makes cars uglier........offers an acrynom encyclopedia option......

 

  Mercedes gets recalled........not the car, the company........

 

   VW builds a luxury car........my friends Jetta gets towed.......

  

  More news later.......

 

    

  DrFill

 

  

lexusguy

Dont underestimate the power that Nissan\Renault have. They went from death's door to usurping Honda in a VERY short amount of time. They've got the most powerful normally aspirated V6 in the world, and it's been on the Ward's 10-best engines list for a very long time. Infiniti has had one slam dunk model after another, and they can sell PERFORMANCE CARS. In 15 years, Lexus has never been able to do that successfully.

drfill

  According to my sources, The production IS, and hybrid GS450h, will debut at New York's IAS!

 

  And B., I don't think a 3.0, 245HP Lexus IS will be enough to make headway vs. a 280HP G35, 270HP, TL, 255HP CTS, and 258HP 330i. I would put a detuned 3.5 in at 260HP, ten turn up the juice in 2-3 years as needed. For the ES, the 3.0 will work, for the IS performance market, this car HAS TO GET NOTICED! The GS has the same problem.

 

  DrFill

lexusguy

My feelings exactly. Just like last time "competitive" horsepower wont cut it against VERY strong competition from G35, TL, 3 series, and dont forget that the freshened A4 for '06 is getting Audi's new 250hp direct injection 3.1L. Last place horsepower isnt a good way to "make an entrance".

oac

lexusguy/Dr Fill:

 

In principle I agree with both of you on this point, BUT methinks it's the total package that the IS puts out that should be judged against its competitors.

 

Now we know the IS will be in showrooms this Fall, and Lexus will unveil it officially in NY and Geneva, I guess we'll have to wait to see what the TOTAL package is. That way we can truly judge if the IS will *compete* or will not. I'd wager that Lexus is fully aware of the package from the competition and won't come out with a lack-luster product. The market for IS is too-important for Lexus' future to be mucked up.

tsx24

Detroit Auto Show today revealed the new Toyota Avalon with a 3.5 V6 280 hp / 260 lb-ft engine...will likely be used in 06 IS350

riez

... will Lexus come up with a worthy IS300 replacement. While I share the loss of the I6 (the world hasn't been on its proper axis ever since both Jaguar and MB gave up the necessary I6s, an engine configuration that made both famous), Lexus could make up for it with a 6-speed manual, LSD, and a powerful, smooth V6 that gets 30 mpg on highway.

drfill

But maybe Lexus does the same thing with the IS and GS. Bring out the 3.5 in Fall '06, just when the new car glowstarts to fade.

 

  I'd put it in the GS at launch, and offer only the 3.0 to the IS for '06. Coupe and 3.5 for '07, Conv./Hybrid for '08, V8 for '09.

 

  Clements hinted that maybe even the ES will get more sporty! I think the LS will take a more aggressive turn.

 

  Something tells me Lexus has a lot of tricks up their sleeve.

 

  I wouldn't want to be Mercedes/BMW right now!

 

   

  DrFill

tsx24

Lexus could make up for it with a 6-speed manual, LSD, and a powerful, smooth V6 that gets 30 mpg on highway.

 

Honda has a V6 to match...3.0 V6 240 hp / 212 lb-ft 6 speed manual makes 20/30 mpg city/highway. HP goes up to 250 by the way if you use premium fuel.

 

Closer again with the TL 3.2 V6 270 hp 238 lb-ft 6 speed manual 20/29 mpg

dewey

"I wouldn't want to be Mercedes/BMW right now!"

 

 

The World in accordance to Drfil: the whole car industry will be swallowed by Toyota/Lexus. Every car manufaturer(other than Toyota) should be on tranquilizers to have a good sleep.

 

Nissan is not a very effective company despite the fact that they are the fastest growing company with the highest margins.(refer to your post 649 and 652).

 

If anyone can believe the above, the Lexus/Toyota marketing guys are definitely doing one hell of a good job.