Toyota is also a company that likes first and foremost to sell cars, and lots of them. If they cared about niche products, the Celica and MR2 would still be around. If Lexus wants to actually sell any IS cars this time, it has to grow up, and it has to be able to compete with G35 and TL.
"At the Geneva Auto Show, as will the 2006 3-series."
Difference is, the 2006 3-series will also be at your local dealer for purchase in March. So I guess the IS will be six months behind, which is just fine as far as I am concerned. I am pulling for Toyota on this one, because pricing on the 3-series has really gotten out of control. Plus, with the weak and failing dollar, 3-series prices should only skyrocket some more in the next year or two.
It would be nice if the next IS had enough room in the back seat for two adults to sit comfortably for a long trip, and if they could hit that sweet spot the 325i hits for ride/handling: good 'n' sporty but with just enough damping not to be juddery and/or crashy for highway trips. I am one of the ones who would have opted for the no-cost all-season tires on the smaller rims if I had been in the market for an IS-type car. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Plus, with the weak and failing dollar, 3-series prices should only skyrocket some more in the next year or two"
I dont know where your price info is coming from?
Everything I read so far is that BMW is going to increase prices marginally! BMW wants to accomplish sales of 2 million e90s(sedan, touring, coupe) in the next 7 years---with such volume pricing is important!
Competing with the TL and G35 is the GS's job, and yet another example of why Nissan is selling G35's so well. Why buy a GS300 when you can have the same midsize comfort, room and better performance in G?
Not even taking about the same segment here.
Again, think benchmark. The 3-series has achieved phenomenal growth and is no longer a niche car, which is precisely why Toyota got interested in the first place. Even with a "tight" back seat.
Why on earth would Lexus need yet another midsize?
A whole lot of us choose compacts because we love them!
Hey, a bit off topic (it's for my SportCross), but I've got a rubber change coming up in May or June and though I have had a tremendous experience with my Eagle F1 GS-D3s and would happily go that way again, I see a newbie at The Rack:
Dunlop SP Sport Maxx
Anybody know these yet? Or have good things to say about Dunlop in general?
"but, the guys at Tirerack seem to think Dunlops ride well for a performance tire..."
LOL! Some glowing recommendation there!
I hear good things about the new Pilots too, but my personal Michelin experience over the years is that there is often a dark horse out there that equals the delivery and undercuts the cost!
The Goodyear was a pretty fair step up over the Potenzas that came stock, and as I said, I'd happily go that way again, but I'm always casting about for the latest upgrade.
Maybe I'll Pilot it this time out. I believe Costco is running them out at $200 installed. That's not that bad.
in my personal estimation, 3-series prices are ALREADY too high. They have talked about a moderate price increase for the '06, nothing out of the ordinary, but even the mighty BMW cannot control currency fluctuations, and the Europeans have had significant difficulties of late with the fact that the dollar has such weak buying power right now.
Now of course, I am not sure that the Lexus wouldn't have the same problem, since the IS will continue to be built in Japan, won't it? But it begins at a lower price point and you don't have to add $15K worth of packages just to get a competitive car. THAT privilege is reserved for 3-series and LS430 buyers!
As for wale, I don't want the next IS to be huge, just to give us a little more legroom in that back seat. I am thinking Corolla space plus a few percent, not limousine length or anything. Seems to me there is no point in a car having four doors if adults cannot travel comfortably in the back - if that is the case why not just make it a coupe?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Seems to me there is no point in a car having four doors if adults cannot travel comfortably in the back - if that is the case why not just make it a coupe?"
I'm not being mean here, Nippon, we are nearly neighbors after all, but why not just buy a midsize and call it a day? [-P
My personal impression of the perfect "sport sedan" is that it carries four large when it has to, not as an everyday gig, because the more utility it gets, the less "sport" it exudes. Don't forget that the 540iT was on my short list when I came home with a SportCross. It's a magnificent car top to bottom, but for everyday fun, this has it beat. I know very few people here in Utopia (NO CA) who actually have three other adults in their 4-door car on a regular basis, and if they do, they usually drive something much bigger to begin with.
A little ease in the rear seat's OK by me, but a 5-inch stretch in wheelbase and a 5-inch width increase?
"BMW wants to accomplish sales of 2 million e90s(sedan, touring, coupe) in the next 7 years"
I'm confusing, I though they sold less than Lexus, and yet all toyota lexus and scion combined sold just a little over 2 millions. So how is it possible for BMW to sell 2m over next 7yrs.
280K per year, or something like that? Maybe the poster meant 200K over the same time period.
wale: hey, I LIKE coupes! No midsizers in my future. I am glad there will be a coupe in the mix for the next IS. 5 inches more of width is not needed here, and I was thinking of maybe three extra inches in wheelbase so that rear seat riders don't have to put knee impressions in the backs of the front seats. But I am sad that your car is going away so that a convertible can be sold instead. The SportCross needs to go on to gen II. What do they expect you to replace it with, an RX? What will you do instead?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nippon, thanks for the sympathy. I was really fantasizing about walking into the dealer, turning over my '03, and driving off in my new '06 SportCross. [sigh]
The next 3-series is a possibility, depending on which engine shows up in the touring. I like my RWD, and would rather not give it up, but I haven't been fond of new BMW styling or sizing. A prime contender, though it too is getting overlarge for my tastes, is the next S4 Avant. V8 lust and debadging! But as of today, the prime candidate based on size, performance specs, sporting potential and aesthetics (other than the grille) is the A3 Sportback 3.2 DSG.
For the record, I'm certainly OK with the convertible thing, but IMO it's hard to find a 'vert that doesn't hint at the feminine. Maybe a Silverstone XK8?
I am eagerly awaiting the new BMW touring myself! Unfortunately based on conversations I had with 2 sales reps there will be no 330 version of the Touring!
That prospect does not excite me. It probably best to get the 3.2 Audi Avant than the BMW 325 Touring. Yes the MSRP for the Avant is higher than the Touring, but I can assure you there will be more bargaining leverage with a Audi dealer than a BMW delarer! Who knows the premium transaction price of the 3.2 Avant over the 325 Touring may not be as wide as you may expect.
Now for that new IS crossover---unfortunately the closest Lexus substitute will be the
No, it isnt. GS is going up against RL and M35\45. A basic GS300 costs at least $10K more than G35 and TL, not a good way to compete. You'll notice that the TL outsells the TSX, and the G20 is dead. Most Americans dont want compacts.
the problem there is that Lexus is bringing a two-pronged approach - IS/ES - to an entry-level segment where most other manufacturers only bring one. The G35 and TL are both high-powered midsizers with an emphasis on sport.
Lexus needs to sell at least one model that is smaller than the ES, I think. The IS fits that bill. The problem becomes that Lexus only sub-$40K midsizer is then the ES, which is in no way as sporty as the TL/G35. Or maybe that isn't a problem, I dunno. Everyone else does sport, but there have to be plenty of premium-brand buyers that don't care that much about sport as long as their ride coddles them from point A to B and doesn't break down while doing so.
I hope the IS remains smaller than the ES/GS for as long as there is one.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Even the 3 series is growing, and BMW will intro the new 1 series as their compact entry. Even if Lexus sole concern is the 3 series, they STILL have some growing to do. And BMW should not be Lexus' sole conern. If they treat Acura and Infiniti like the 4th and 5th tier players they were in the early to mid 90s when Lexus was gaining its foothold against the Germans, they will get beaten.
I've been watching and am very optimistic about the March announce for the next IS (and going to NY auto show) - but I differ from the consensus opinions (complaints, maybe)on the next IS. I looked at the GS specs, and actually might be happy with a GS300 AWD, but those prices are more than I feel like spending on a car.
My ideal IS results from a search process that went like this:
I need AWD - my snow-belt driveway is so steep that even AWD won't always get me up if the plow hasn't come yet. (Down is another story - descent control at 5mph is too fast on a bad day.)The tow truck :-( had trouble two weeks ago.
Reliability is key to me - it eliminates most of the competition.
Best current candidates that I drove - BMW 3-series, and Infiniti G35x. Infiniti and Lexus look to be far above the BMW in reliability stats, and the G35x is priced like a 325, but performs like a 330, and has a bit more space. Advantage G35x. Realistically, even the 184hp 325 is a capable, good performing car - very smooth, and I liked it. But, I hate the thought of the G's gas mileage. That's emotional, not financial. (A problem with my current RX300 - which was probably a mistake - also, no fun to drive, really.)
I don't really need 280hp, and would rarely exercise it. Good handling, I can use every day.
So, give me an AWD, fun to drive, 215hp IS250, that gets mileage like the GS300 announce (22-30), a touch larger than the BMW (but not as wide as the rumor - seems excessive), adds great reliability and some luxury amenities (heated seats and such), priced like or under (I can always hope) a G35x, and I'm there. I won't complain that it doesn't have hp equivalent to the competition - there will always be a car with more hp. I might even pay MSRP (scary).
"remember a MT comparison of the IS, 328, and Catera ('round 2001) where the IS beat the 328 in handling in both slalom and skidpad."
Why did it win this competition?
Hint:
It had nothing to do with its lack of of luxury!
It had nothing to do with its lack of size!
It had nothing to do with not having a v6 with overpowing horsepower!
Without providing more hints the true spriit of the IS300 that beat the BMW328 should not be forgotten! Amnesia will cause Lexus to make the IS into a GS wannabe that accomadates buyers who wants speedy luxury at a value price---in that case I can already hear the death knell of the IS as we knew it in that MT comparison.
that despite all the hype, even the next GS will not have an available manual, and will be a fairly large car - there is not a whole lot of sport there. Maybe later Lexus can bring in something smaller than the IS that has good sport cred, but for now the IS represents the sport of the Lexus brand. Let's keep it on the smaller side of the premium branded cars, and on the sportier side of the new 325i.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nippon nailed it. For a mid-size in the $30K+ range, Lexus already has a best-seller in the ES, which by the way personified the "entry" Lexus customer prior to the IS.
Straight from Clements et al, the IS has a two-pronged mission, which few here can cotton to, in fact some even seem resistant. It is supposed to be the real sport Lexus (the only one), and it's supposed to bring in a (much) younger buyer than the rest of the bunch.
How Toyota is going about those two facets seems very confused to me. Again, the numbers appear to be a 5" stretch in wheelbase and a 5" spread in width. That puts the car in midsize territory. Strike one. You can't expand a compact into a midsize like that and still retain the increasingly important crash test scores without adding heft (or serious cost). Strike two. You can't soften things up without taking away the sporting edge that is supposed to differentiate the car from the rest of the lineup. (Possible) Strike three.
To make the car as big as projected (of course we'll have to wait and see) by the pundits, you'd basically have another, less expensive GS. Makes perfect sense doesn't it? Add more in-house competition for a car that already has minor penetration and a huge identity crisis? You also offer an alternative to your own best-seller that with the RX represents the current bread and butter of the volume picture.
Small, sporty and fast are exactly what put the 3-series on the map. Didn't make it any less "BMW". Actually that's what made it BMW in the first place.
Small, sporty, fast and comfy. Exactly what I'm looking for.
Pretty big stretch there. Huge. I think a couple people in this thread are offended by the term "compact" without understanding it completely!
On compacts: Mercedes C class has been a boon to their sales here, the TSX as mentioned previously has outstripped expectations handily, the A4 is Audi's best-seller, the 3-series invented and defined the sport sedan category and is BMW's BnB here, Audi is shipping the A3 Sportback here, Mercedes is bringing the B-class, BMW is bring the 1-series, Honda is bringing a duded up version of its Fit subcompact here, etc., etc. All compacts.
I think the real deal here is that some simply don't like the idea of a "compact" on the Lexus showroom floor. Brings the "wrong" element in. Puts the focus on things "not Lexus". Like driving, as opposed to, say, "motoring".
All I'm saying is if the current IS is what Lexus shoppers wanted in a Lexus sport sedan, it would've sold. The G35 beat the IS300 in every comparison I can remember the two of them being in, and it came from NO WHERE, from a company with no other compelling product, that until the G35 hit, hadnt even been in an automag in about 10 years. If Lexus had done a car like that from the start, it would be the sales success that the G35 is.
The G35x is a steal at less than $33k! It beat the 3 (rather easily) in a MT comparison when it hit the market 3 years ago (the 3 hasn't improved while the G has).
The G and IS are attacking the market from two different angles.
Lexus chose the harder route, and tried to make a better 3, sportier, for younger, hipper buyers. The G just said "More is better.". More room, power, handling, value. Make it stand out from the crowd. This approach worked.
The next IS is still a small car (wale). The concept I sore in NY was not much bigger than the current car. If it becomes midsize, it'll be the smallest midsize on the market.
Lexus seems to be on the path to righteousness, with this VDIM system, which they claim allows you to drive closer to the limit without noticing computer interference, something the 5-series and E-class are starting to have trouble with.
With more aluminum, lightweight alloys, and high-tensile steel, the IS can grow 4-5 inches around and still have a comparable weight.
The G35 and IS are as different as cars can be in this class. It all depends on what type of car you like. Smaller, sportier, more lively, or larger, faster, more built to a larger Americans ideal.
it would be really cool to see more use of aluminum in the next IS, but it is kind of a lot to hope for in a car at this price point, I think. I bet the car will put on one or two hundred pounds for the '06, which as wale says is not anything to cheer about.
Of course, it will have a jump in power that more than compensates. So it really comes down to whether they can make the new one handle as well as the old one. Toyota does have a few tricks up its sleeve in this regard, as the Celica and former Supra will attest. So hopefully they will get that right, and keep the overall weight around 3300 or less.
There are so many premium-branded compacts coming on the market in the next couple of years, the IS will be in no danger of running on the cusp of this wave. It will be bigger than most of them even if it doesn't grow at all from its present size. I still vote for half the 5" proposed stretch in wheelbase, and no width increase (and PLEASE, Lexus, don't follow the trend and make the new model higher than the current one - we don't need the COG to rise in what is supposed to be a sport model!).
One way Toyota went wrong with the first IS was in making it LOOK too young with the unique gauge cluster, the clear taillights, and all the other ricer-looking stuff. The fact is, if the car is significantly sporty and low-priced among Lexus cars, it will sell to a younger audience. None of that other fluff is needed, and in fact if it looks sharp but conservative (I am thinking of somehting like Jag here) it will probably fit the Lexus mold much better, and consequently draw more customers. I do very much like the overall design theme of the concept cars we have seen the last year or two. Looks predatory in a good way. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well there ya go Doc. I personally think the G35 is massive and kinda ugly. The coupe I like, but not the sedan, though frankly if I were looking at two-doors, the Nissan Z would get my money for choice. For the record, I've had some extended seat time in a TL, and it's a pig too. Very nice, comfy and competent pig, but a pig nonetheless. Big as any Buick.
Nippon, I think if they about-face from those petty styling details and people smile, that's great. The only detail you listed that I love is the cluster. I couldn't care less about the lenses, or the "drilled" pedals and such, and as long as the instruments are analog and arranged sensibly, I can certainly live without the chronometer.
None of that's what I'm about, and I don't believe any of it ever kept serious buyers away from the car. From reading in here and elewhere around the Hall, the people who were really turned off by such things weren't really interested in what the car had to offer from the ground up. The comments often come from ES, GS, RX and LS drivers. I submit that if you're happy living day to day with those types of cars, the basic concept behind the IS is utterly foreign and confusing to begin with. Just a thought there.
It's just gotta have the sports car feel. The cockpit should be close but comfy, the steering precise and hyper-communicative, the heft utterly unnoticeable, the power on-demand (not necessarily excessive), the suspension taut and sticky, the ride comfortable but by no means silky, the noise limited but by no means eliminated, etc., etc. Without that feeling, why bother? The ES would work just fine (blecch).
It is funny - most people think Lexus' defining characteristic is quiet, smooth, and cushy, with super materials and build quality. The materials and build quality part is on target, but I don't think Lexus ever set out to become the super-lux rolling couches company, and unfortunately that is the rep they got.
Which is fine for plenty of folks, but is a limited vision for the future of a car company. And the IS rails against that entire notion, which is why most traditional buyers and interested parties in Lexus don't get it.
Hopefully, the next IS will set the tone for all the supposedly sportier models to come in the next few years, while upgrading its sport LUXURY image at the same time. The sport part I think it does perfectly well now. The luxury part might just need a touch-up.
Ultimately, it would be nice if they could develop the entire line-up to the point where there were "touring" and "sport" versions (with real sporting characteristics) of every model.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yeah, after reading that and your other posts, I'd say we're pretty much on the same page.
Saluting the same flag.
Singing from the same sheet.
Whacking the same porcupine.
I'd love it if the car was all sport and a touch more lux as you said. I'd buy it even without the backpack! And vice the touring and sport idea, that's where I think the tuner badge comes in.
In retrospect, I would've really loved it if my car, for instance, had been offered with an "M-Sport" type of package that took my std. rear 17x7.5 wheels with 225/45s to 18x9 with 255/35s and the std. 17x7 fronts with 215/45s to 18x8 with 235/35s, beefed up the spring rate by about 100-120 lbs, added 3-4mm to both the front and rear bars and dropped the whole assembly by about 3/4". It would've been very close to something between the 330 Sport pkg and M3 set-up, and I would've paid a good $2200-$2800 for it as a factory option. Gad, it makes me salivate just thinking about it! It would stick like glue to any paved surface; I could drive it upside down in a tunnel if I wanted to!
Just a shot at potential Millen or L-Tuned or whatever for the future. Really, the imagination knows no bounds on that stuff.
I wonder if, when the GS gets the 460, the IS might support the cast-off 430, or will it just fade away? Considering that Lexus has said the next IS and GS will share diff and tranny components, maybe that door is now open?
They are knee-deep in the Hybrid program, and have a 3.5 with 280HP available. Why use a V8? For another 20HP?
Maybe they'll use an adaptation of the RX400h powertrain, make the sedan AWD, and give it 280-300HP, +35MPG (since it would be about 1000lbs less than the RX!).
Well, for the moment they've said no hybrids either. Its supposed to be IS250 and IS350, at least initially. If they decide to make an M3\C55\S4 fighter out of it, then a hybrid\V6 combo is probably the most likely route.
Lexus looks like it's trying to totally swamp Caddy and Bimmer. Look at the new GS.... it's a lot like the STS. The '07 LS is supposedly going to move upstream, offering a long wheelbase and a 5 litre V8
A hybrid will also be available. The IS is just a clever little entry level. If the people get richer, they would then move up to the GS. Also, the ES would be a more luxurious (less sporty) entry level. THEN, if those people got more fluid, they could move up to the LS, which is a cloud on wheels.
"LS, which is a cloud on wheels" It really isnt any more. Believe it or not, the newest LS430s are a lot more entertaining to drive than any ES. The last time C&D compared an LS, it beat out all of the Germans and the new Jaguar, and not because it was the most luxurious or reliable.
Help me out here because if it didn't win on those points it surely wasn't because it out-handled the competition either. It came in next to last in the "chassis" department.
by saying "cloud on wheels" i had no intention of implying that the LS didn't handle well.... just that it's really comfortable.
Lexus needs a home run with the GS and IS because that will position the brand to be more versatile. The GS may work, it's about the same size as a 5 series, and they might swap the engines out in a couple of years. The IS is in tough territory because of the 3, CTS, A4, S40, G35, and TL (kinda). In order to carve themselves in, Lexus needs to make it more sporty and have some engine choices, because most of the competitors do.
The GS Hybrid in 2007 and the IS Hybrid for '08 will be HUGE! And the Hybrid buzz will draw buyers to buy the cheaper models when supply can't match demand, or the bill is a little to steep.
Sad to say but about 50-55% of Lexus' sales the past 3 years or so have been in SUVs. Even BMW car sales actually down in USA in CY2004, with only real growth in their SUVs. Thinking the last sales figures I saw for Lexus had about 150,000 SUVs to about 135,000 cars, and of the cars about 95,000 were ES. There weren't many GS, IS, or LS sold.
Lexus really has become ES and RX. Between the two, they comprise a huge part of overall sales.
As a comment on the relationship between sales figures and image - Porsche sold about 58% SUVs in N.A. in 2004. They are still seen as a performance brand.
I think this is all why Lexus is redoing so many models. Obviously they want more performance, so they are stepping up the IS and GS. They want to supplant Cadillac's Escalade and Lincoln's Navigator, so they'll make a JX470. It's a nice plan for Lexus, because if all goes well, they could theoretically swamp many luxury companies.
folks, I missed it along the way, and I'm too lazy to go find it out now (!!), but what engine will the IS250 have? Is that a small V-6 or a hotted-up version of the Camry's 4-cyl engine, or what?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Comments
Difference is, the 2006 3-series will also be at your local dealer for purchase in March. So I guess the IS will be six months behind, which is just fine as far as I am concerned. I am pulling for Toyota on this one, because pricing on the 3-series has really gotten out of control. Plus, with the weak and failing dollar, 3-series prices should only skyrocket some more in the next year or two.
It would be nice if the next IS had enough room in the back seat for two adults to sit comfortably for a long trip, and if they could hit that sweet spot the 325i hits for ride/handling: good 'n' sporty but with just enough damping not to be juddery and/or crashy for highway trips. I am one of the ones who would have opted for the no-cost all-season tires on the smaller rims if I had been in the market for an IS-type car. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I dont know where your price info is coming from?
Everything I read so far is that BMW is going to increase prices marginally! BMW wants to accomplish sales of 2 million e90s(sedan, touring, coupe) in the next 7 years---with such volume pricing is important!
Not even taking about the same segment here.
Again, think benchmark. The 3-series has achieved phenomenal growth and is no longer a niche car, which is precisely why Toyota got interested in the first place. Even with a "tight" back seat.
Why on earth would Lexus need yet another midsize?
A whole lot of us choose compacts because we love them!
Dunlop SP Sport Maxx
Anybody know these yet? Or have good things to say about Dunlop in general?
I hear the best are Michelin Pilot PS2, if you are looking for a summer tire... not available in all sizes, though..
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LOL! Some glowing recommendation there!
I hear good things about the new Pilots too, but my personal Michelin experience over the years is that there is often a dark horse out there that equals the delivery and undercuts the cost!
The Goodyear was a pretty fair step up over the Potenzas that came stock, and as I said, I'd happily go that way again, but I'm always casting about for the latest upgrade.
Maybe I'll Pilot it this time out. I believe Costco is running them out at $200 installed. That's not that bad.
I have the regular Michelin Pilots.. I like them a lot, also.. but, they say the new Pilot PS2 are amazing...
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Now of course, I am not sure that the Lexus wouldn't have the same problem, since the IS will continue to be built in Japan, won't it? But it begins at a lower price point and you don't have to add $15K worth of packages just to get a competitive car. THAT privilege is reserved for 3-series and LS430 buyers!
As for wale, I don't want the next IS to be huge, just to give us a little more legroom in that back seat. I am thinking Corolla space plus a few percent, not limousine length or anything. Seems to me there is no point in a car having four doors if adults cannot travel comfortably in the back - if that is the case why not just make it a coupe?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm not being mean here, Nippon, we are nearly neighbors after all, but why not just buy a midsize and call it a day? [-P
My personal impression of the perfect "sport sedan" is that it carries four large when it has to, not as an everyday gig, because the more utility it gets, the less "sport" it exudes. Don't forget that the 540iT was on my short list when I came home with a SportCross. It's a magnificent car top to bottom, but for everyday fun, this has it beat. I know very few people here in Utopia (NO CA) who actually have three other adults in their 4-door car on a regular basis, and if they do, they usually drive something much bigger to begin with.
A little ease in the rear seat's OK by me, but a 5-inch stretch in wheelbase and a 5-inch width increase?
That's ridiculous.
I'm confusing, I though they sold less than Lexus, and yet all toyota lexus and scion combined sold just a little over 2 millions. So how is it possible for BMW to sell 2m over next 7yrs.
wale: hey, I LIKE coupes! No midsizers in my future. I am glad there will be a coupe in the mix for the next IS. 5 inches more of width is not needed here, and I was thinking of maybe three extra inches in wheelbase so that rear seat riders don't have to put knee impressions in the backs of the front seats. But I am sad that your car is going away so that a convertible can be sold instead. The SportCross needs to go on to gen II. What do they expect you to replace it with, an RX? What will you do instead?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The next 3-series is a possibility, depending on which engine shows up in the touring. I like my RWD, and would rather not give it up, but I haven't been fond of new BMW styling or sizing. A prime contender, though it too is getting overlarge for my tastes, is the next S4 Avant. V8 lust and debadging! But as of today, the prime candidate based on size, performance specs, sporting potential and aesthetics (other than the grille) is the A3 Sportback 3.2 DSG.
For the record, I'm certainly OK with the convertible thing, but IMO it's hard to find a 'vert that doesn't hint at the feminine. Maybe a Silverstone XK8?
Hey kfdyx, Does this look right?
http://www.costco.com/Tires/Product.aspx?IV=true&YW=2003&- MA=LEXUS&MD=IS300+Sport+Cross+Rear&SP=0&MN=53631&- cat=3960&MNo=0&Prodid=10042048&Aspect=45&Diameter- =17&Speed=Y&Width=225
It still sells 3-4k a month.
I remember a MT comparison of the IS, 328, and Catera ('round 2001) where the IS beat the 328 in handling in both slalom and skidpad.
Lexus will keep it small, keep it light, but class up the interior, add models and power.
Sounds good to me.
DrFill
I am eagerly awaiting the new BMW touring myself! Unfortunately based on conversations I had with 2 sales reps there will be no 330 version of the Touring!
That prospect does not excite me. It probably best to get the 3.2 Audi Avant than the BMW 325 Touring. Yes the MSRP for the Avant is higher than the Touring, but I can assure you there will be more bargaining leverage with a Audi dealer than a BMW delarer! Who knows the premium transaction price of the 3.2 Avant over the 325 Touring may not be as wide as you may expect.
Now for that new IS crossover---unfortunately the closest Lexus substitute will be the
RX330
No, it isnt. GS is going up against RL and M35\45. A basic GS300 costs at least $10K more than G35 and TL, not a good way to compete. You'll notice that the TL outsells the TSX, and the G20 is dead. Most Americans dont want compacts.
Lexus needs to sell at least one model that is smaller than the ES, I think. The IS fits that bill. The problem becomes that Lexus only sub-$40K midsizer is then the ES, which is in no way as sporty as the TL/G35. Or maybe that isn't a problem, I dunno. Everyone else does sport, but there have to be plenty of premium-brand buyers that don't care that much about sport as long as their ride coddles them from point A to B and doesn't break down while doing so.
I hope the IS remains smaller than the ES/GS for as long as there is one.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My ideal IS results from a search process that went like this:
I need AWD - my snow-belt driveway is so steep that even AWD won't always get me up if the plow hasn't come yet. (Down is another story - descent control at 5mph is too fast on a bad day.)The tow truck :-( had trouble two weeks ago.
Reliability is key to me - it eliminates most of the competition.
Best current candidates that I drove - BMW 3-series, and Infiniti G35x. Infiniti and Lexus look to be far above the BMW in reliability stats, and the G35x is priced like a 325, but performs like a 330, and has a bit more space. Advantage G35x. Realistically, even the 184hp 325 is a capable, good performing car - very smooth, and I liked it. But, I hate the thought of the G's gas mileage. That's emotional, not financial. (A problem with my current RX300 - which was probably a mistake - also, no fun to drive, really.)
I don't really need 280hp, and would rarely exercise it. Good handling, I can use every day.
So, give me an AWD, fun to drive, 215hp IS250, that gets mileage like the GS300 announce (22-30), a touch larger than the BMW (but not as wide as the rumor - seems excessive), adds great reliability and some luxury amenities (heated seats and such), priced like or under (I can always hope) a G35x, and I'm there. I won't complain that it doesn't have hp equivalent to the competition - there will always be a car with more hp. I might even pay MSRP (scary).
That's my cross-shopping logic. Tim
Why did it win this competition?
Hint:
It had nothing to do with its lack of of luxury!
It had nothing to do with its lack of size!
It had nothing to do with not having a v6 with overpowing horsepower!
Without providing more hints the true spriit of the IS300 that beat the BMW328 should not be forgotten! Amnesia will cause Lexus to make the IS into a GS wannabe that accomadates buyers who wants speedy luxury at a value price---in that case I can already hear the death knell of the IS as we knew it in that MT comparison.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Straight from Clements et al, the IS has a two-pronged mission, which few here can cotton to, in fact some even seem resistant. It is supposed to be the real sport Lexus (the only one), and it's supposed to bring in a (much) younger buyer than the rest of the bunch.
How Toyota is going about those two facets seems very confused to me. Again, the numbers appear to be a 5" stretch in wheelbase and a 5" spread in width. That puts the car in midsize territory. Strike one. You can't expand a compact into a midsize like that and still retain the increasingly important crash test scores without adding heft (or serious cost). Strike two. You can't soften things up without taking away the sporting edge that is supposed to differentiate the car from the rest of the lineup. (Possible) Strike three.
To make the car as big as projected (of course we'll have to wait and see) by the pundits, you'd basically have another, less expensive GS. Makes perfect sense doesn't it? Add more in-house competition for a car that already has minor penetration and a huge identity crisis? You also offer an alternative to your own best-seller that with the RX represents the current bread and butter of the volume picture.
Somebody's going to be dissapointed in March.
Small, sporty, fast and comfy. Exactly what I'm looking for.
Exactly what I have!
Pretty big stretch there. Huge. I think a couple people in this thread are offended by the term "compact" without understanding it completely!
On compacts: Mercedes C class has been a boon to their sales here, the TSX as mentioned previously has outstripped expectations handily, the A4 is Audi's best-seller, the 3-series invented and defined the sport sedan category and is BMW's BnB here, Audi is shipping the A3 Sportback here, Mercedes is bringing the B-class, BMW is bring the 1-series, Honda is bringing a duded up version of its Fit subcompact here, etc., etc. All compacts.
I think the real deal here is that some simply don't like the idea of a "compact" on the Lexus showroom floor. Brings the "wrong" element in. Puts the focus on things "not Lexus". Like driving, as opposed to, say, "motoring".
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The G and IS are attacking the market from two different angles.
Lexus chose the harder route, and tried to make a better 3, sportier, for younger, hipper buyers. The G just said "More is better.". More room, power, handling, value. Make it stand out from the crowd. This approach worked.
The next IS is still a small car (wale). The concept I sore in NY was not much bigger than the current car. If it becomes midsize, it'll be the smallest midsize on the market.
Lexus seems to be on the path to righteousness, with this VDIM system, which they claim allows you to drive closer to the limit without noticing computer interference, something the 5-series and E-class are starting to have trouble with.
With more aluminum, lightweight alloys, and high-tensile steel, the IS can grow 4-5 inches around and still have a comparable weight.
The G35 and IS are as different as cars can be in this class. It all depends on what type of car you like. Smaller, sportier, more lively, or larger, faster, more built to a larger Americans ideal.
DrFill
Of course, it will have a jump in power that more than compensates. So it really comes down to whether they can make the new one handle as well as the old one. Toyota does have a few tricks up its sleeve in this regard, as the Celica and former Supra will attest. So hopefully they will get that right, and keep the overall weight around 3300 or less.
There are so many premium-branded compacts coming on the market in the next couple of years, the IS will be in no danger of running on the cusp of this wave. It will be bigger than most of them even if it doesn't grow at all from its present size. I still vote for half the 5" proposed stretch in wheelbase, and no width increase (and PLEASE, Lexus, don't follow the trend and make the new model higher than the current one - we don't need the COG to rise in what is supposed to be a sport model!).
One way Toyota went wrong with the first IS was in making it LOOK too young with the unique gauge cluster, the clear taillights, and all the other ricer-looking stuff. The fact is, if the car is significantly sporty and low-priced among Lexus cars, it will sell to a younger audience. None of that other fluff is needed, and in fact if it looks sharp but conservative (I am thinking of somehting like Jag here) it will probably fit the Lexus mold much better, and consequently draw more customers. I do very much like the overall design theme of the concept cars we have seen the last year or two. Looks predatory in a good way. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
WHY NOT JUST AN AVALON, WITH A BENCH SEAT, SLAP ON SOME SPORT SHOCKS AND ENJOY THE LEG ROOM
Come on guys.
abfisch
Nippon, I think if they about-face from those petty styling details and people smile, that's great. The only detail you listed that I love is the cluster. I couldn't care less about the lenses, or the "drilled" pedals and such, and as long as the instruments are analog and arranged sensibly, I can certainly live without the chronometer.
None of that's what I'm about, and I don't believe any of it ever kept serious buyers away from the car. From reading in here and elewhere around the Hall, the people who were really turned off by such things weren't really interested in what the car had to offer from the ground up. The comments often come from ES, GS, RX and LS drivers. I submit that if you're happy living day to day with those types of cars, the basic concept behind the IS is utterly foreign and confusing to begin with. Just a thought there.
It's just gotta have the sports car feel. The cockpit should be close but comfy, the steering precise and hyper-communicative, the heft utterly unnoticeable, the power on-demand (not necessarily excessive), the suspension taut and sticky, the ride comfortable but by no means silky, the noise limited but by no means eliminated, etc., etc. Without that feeling, why bother? The ES would work just fine (blecch).
It is funny - most people think Lexus' defining characteristic is quiet, smooth, and cushy, with super materials and build quality. The materials and build quality part is on target, but I don't think Lexus ever set out to become the super-lux rolling couches company, and unfortunately that is the rep they got.
Which is fine for plenty of folks, but is a limited vision for the future of a car company. And the IS rails against that entire notion, which is why most traditional buyers and interested parties in Lexus don't get it.
Hopefully, the next IS will set the tone for all the supposedly sportier models to come in the next few years, while upgrading its sport LUXURY image at the same time. The sport part I think it does perfectly well now. The luxury part might just need a touch-up.
Ultimately, it would be nice if they could develop the entire line-up to the point where there were "touring" and "sport" versions (with real sporting characteristics) of every model.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Saluting the same flag.
Singing from the same sheet.
Whacking the same porcupine.
I'd love it if the car was all sport and a touch more lux as you said. I'd buy it even without the backpack! And vice the touring and sport idea, that's where I think the tuner badge comes in.
In retrospect, I would've really loved it if my car, for instance, had been offered with an "M-Sport" type of package that took my std. rear 17x7.5 wheels with 225/45s to 18x9 with 255/35s and the std. 17x7 fronts with 215/45s to 18x8 with 235/35s, beefed up the spring rate by about 100-120 lbs, added 3-4mm to both the front and rear bars and dropped the whole assembly by about 3/4". It would've been very close to something between the 330 Sport pkg and M3 set-up, and I would've paid a good $2200-$2800 for it as a factory option. Gad, it makes me salivate just thinking about it! It would stick like glue to any paved surface; I could drive it upside down in a tunnel if I wanted to!
Just a shot at potential Millen or L-Tuned or whatever for the future. Really, the imagination knows no bounds on that stuff.
Doc? Lexusguy? Whaddya think?
Maybe they'll use an adaptation of the RX400h powertrain, make the sedan AWD, and give it 280-300HP, +35MPG (since it would be about 1000lbs less than the RX!).
I can see that happening.
DrFill
A hybrid will also be available. The IS is just a clever little entry level. If the people get richer, they would then move up to the GS. Also, the ES would be a more luxurious (less sporty) entry level. THEN, if those people got more fluid, they could move up to the LS, which is a cloud on wheels.
M
Another easy victory. Actually the XJ came in 2nd (?)!
They just liked it's balance of room, comfort, speed, value, and in the "twisties", it didn't lead, but it didn't embarass itself either.
I remeber them pretty much fawning over it's interior and attention to detail. A 20 cube trunk doesn't hurt in that class either!
I have the issue here.....somewhere.
DrFill
Lexus needs a home run with the GS and IS because that will position the brand to be more versatile. The GS may work, it's about the same size as a 5 series, and they might swap the engines out in a couple of years. The IS is in tough territory because of the 3, CTS, A4, S40, G35, and TL (kinda). In order to carve themselves in, Lexus needs to make it more sporty and have some engine choices, because most of the competitors do.
The GS Hybrid in 2007 and the IS Hybrid for '08 will be HUGE! And the Hybrid buzz will draw buyers to buy the cheaper models when supply can't match demand, or the bill is a little to steep.
DrFill
Lexus really has become ES and RX. Between the two, they comprise a huge part of overall sales.
Did you know the 3-series makes up about 45-50% of overall BMW sales figures in the US? ANd worldwide, the 3-series is 40% of BMW's volume?
Re: the SUV sales, and your point is?
SUV sales don't count? Car sales are more important?
That's kinda like saying all McDonalds sells are hamburgers.
DrFill
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)