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Comments
-Better reliability.
-Better warranty.
-Better prices. (So many BMW dealers won't hardly deal at all, esp. on the value of your trade in.)
-Better values.
-Better dealers.
-LSD!
At this point I am incredibly impressed with my 6 years of owning a BMW 323i. I believe the key source of disgruntled feelings among BMW owners are from the dealer services. Fortunately in my case I rely on an honest independent(appears to be honest) who only services BMWs.
I can say that a driver is close to Nirvana if his BMW is being serviced by someone who is not trying to gouge his source of life savings.
I am even willing to predict that if Lexus were able to service BMWs, the satisfaction with BMWs would be the highest in the industry.
-RWD
-Stick
-clean, taut exterior styling
-clean, driver-oriented interior w/ nice materials
Throw in Lexus reliability and service, and you've got a deal. Heck, I'd pay the same price or more that BMW charges for the above combo.
That's all it takes-- yet all of hte Japanese makers seem to miss this glaringly obvious formula. They all have come close-
The new ACura TL has a decent interior
the TSX has a nice exterior (although its FWD proportions throw it of a bit)
The IS300 has RWD and stick (but an awful interior and its a bit too small)
THE G35 has RWD and stick (btu an awful interior and its a bit too large).
All Lexus needs to do is come out with a BMW e46 clone (update the styling a bit, and add the nice gadgets that only Japanese companies can do properly). BMW will take car of their own demise w/ their increasingly bad styling and reliability.
WHy is no one able to grasp this simple formula?
I know what you mean. Lexus should focus on their products and BMW should focus on their services.
Yes, exactly. I have more faith in Lexus improving their products than in BMW improving their service. RIght now, I'd still choose the BMW over Lexus because its the product that I have to deal with 95% of the time--not the service dept. WIth my BMW, i've just decided to do all the maintenance and repairs (whenever possible) myself and have avoided BMW dealers for 2 years now. Fortunately, the 3 series is pretty easy to work on. But, I'd still prefer buying from a more customer-oriented company that understands how to treat customers and fixes problems when they arise. BMW comes out w/ products that are about 90% done, and then spends the next 6-7 years denying there are some problems (usually pretty stupid, easy-to-fix things) that need to bre addressed. Anwyay, I'm hoping Lexus "gets" the formula right this tme around.
The G35's interior is much better for '05, but its still not as good as TL or A4.
The '04 interior has a couple nice touches that the earlier ISs didn't have. Not to mention that the IS has more and better gauges than the 325i. Both have good pedal placement and a dead pedal. The only thing the IS needs is space-saving multi-link trunk hinges, which the 325i has!!!
Audi makes BMW's interiors look like old Checker cabs.
I tihnk we might value different things about the interiors. To me, a stripped 318i interior w/ cloth seats and a tape radio is still "nicer" than a loaded g35 or current IS interior. I like the shape of the e46 dash, the fact that its uncluttered, driver-oriented, and that evetryting feels solid, and that dash/door plastic has a nice grain to it (kind of rubbery). Its a simple, clean, elegant design. The IS has lots of gauges and features, but it just looks cheap and cluttered to me. Of course, I'd prefer to have those features, but I really don't like the way they're presented. To put it in perspective-- even if the IS interior was the same as an 1988 e30 3 series (even if it had no more features than an e30 ( but was simple, elegant, driver-oriented, uncluttered), I'd probably buy it. I also used to think Audi/VW interiors were the nicest-- and in some ways they are, but the ergonomics just aren't as good as the e46 (they bury the climate control down low in the dash,the radio buttons are too small, you can't get steering wheel mounted controls w/ the 3 spoke wheel, dash isn't not canted toward the driver, and the center console digs into your legs). In general, Audi/VW interiors do seem to use the best materials and feel the most solid and well-built though. I happen to think that the newer bMW interiors (like the new 5 and 7) are awful (ugly, non-ergonomic, non-driver oriented, and cheap). I think Acura has come the closes (with the TL) to taking the ideas in hte e46/39 dahs and refining them (while incorporating more nad better features). If the next IS has a TL caliber dash, I'll probably buy it. The next 3 series dash is kind of ugly (not quite as bad as the 5 and 7 though)- but its still slightly better than the G35 and current IS. A clean, elegant, ergonomic interior is importnat to me because that's what I have to look at 99% of the time. I'm praying that Lexus gets it right. Don't get me wrong--as much as I like the e46 interior "concept", it could use lots of improvement and refinement (in terms of features, rattles, etc). Refinement is what the Japanese are experts on (especially Toyota), and I'm hoping they pick up what BMW has stupidly abandoned.
Unfortunately BMW cars have lost their Germanic roots. Bangle styling is a contradiction to the philosophy behind the "form follows function design". The BMW idrive makes a joke out of keeping things simple.
Despite my above complaints I will most likely end up buying a new BMW 325xi Touring. Unfortunately there will be no IS wagon version. At least not in the near future.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
If the next IS sells 6000 per month in all its iterations, then it should also be considered a success.
Toyota's got so much more money than BMW... it should underprice the IS at the start and try to get marketshare that way.
Not that I want world-domination by Toyota
Infiniti has done a great job competing with BMW!!
If Lexus sells about 6K over it's 2 to 3 variations, that would be pretty good and should cause BMW to think about why they bangle-ized the 3-series!
You know, the exterior styling of the 3-series is not too bad at all, it's the inside that kills it. Hopefully Lexus makes a truly outstanding interior this time around for the IS300.
Unlike BMW's dealers and salespeople, they don't know how to market and sell a serious sport sedan.
I don't see the IS selling 6K units a month. If it does, it means ES sales tank. Cannibalizing isn't what Lexus wants. IS will only sell if the dealers push it and train their salespeople to understand the IS and connect with potential buyers. Don't hold your breath.
Anyone want to bet that by 2007, SUVs still make up at least half of Lexus sales?
Infiniti had no choice but to aggressively market and sell G35s. Its dealers had next to no decent cars to sell. The new Q was a flop. The new M was a mega flop. The I30/35 were long a joke (hardly being differentiated from the Maxima), and the dealers knew it was going to be killed off. The G20 had been killed off once (in '96) and was a flop when ressurrected in '99. The G35 was replacing both the G20 and I35. Right in the heart of their market plans. And Infiniti only had one very mediocre SUV to sell. You should've gone into an Infiniti dealer in 2001 and 2002. They were desperate for decent product!
The dealers push SUVs and ESs, and LSs because those are the products that the customers who walk in the door want. What would make you think that they discriminate against the IS and GS? It's all about money-if virtually no shoppers are coming in looking for the IS or GS how are they going to push it???
You fail to realize that the IS just doesn't cut it against it's main competitor's-the G35, Audi A4, & BMW 3-series.
I've been to BMW dealers in the past, and most are simply BSers. Those salespeople know very little about the product also, they typically resort to bashing and playing up the prestige thing(you know "it's a BMW").
"I don't see the IS selling 6K units a month. If it does, it means ES sales tank. Cannibalizing isn't what Lexus wants. IS will only sell if the dealers push it and train their salespeople to understand the IS and connect with potential buyers. Don't hold your breath."
WHy can't the IS sell at 6K a month? The ES sells to a different clientele. sure the ES sales will drop somewhat, but I think it would be very slight since the ES caters to a different crowd, and more than likely it would be a short term drop in sales. The ES customer is typically much older and is competing for sales against cars like the C320, Toyota Avalon, Acura TL. The IS is supposed to steal sales from the G35, 3-series, A4.
IS will only sell if the dealers push it. What kind of nonsense is this? The dealers push, as I said before, what sells or what customers come in looking for. If Lexus designs a proper IS to compete with cars in it's class, buyers will come and the dealers will sell. I test drove a IS right when it came out, the dealer hyped it up and really tried to sell it. Frankly it doesn't sell because it's lacking in soo many areas and the customers for the IS300 slow down, and then sales slow, and then production slows, and the dealers don't care.
For you to say Lexus dealers have neglected the GS is ridiculous. In 1998 and 1999 the GS was selling really well. It wasn't up to E-class Benz sales figures but it was selling up there with the 5-series, and Lexus was marketing it, so don't say they didn't do anything for the car. The bland interior and the dated exterior styling has hurt it's sales. Not to mention when you're selling sporting cars to enthusiasts, you have to constantly update it. This is one area where Lexus needs to improve. You always see new BMW variants, new features, options, wheels, sport packages, etc. It's almost a yearly occurence. WHat did Lexus do for the GS to keep enthusiasts excited?? Nothing. They gave it new wheels and new tailights in 2000 and added a Mark LEvinson stereo and side airbag. Whoopie!
"Infiniti had no choice but to aggressively market and sell G35s. Its dealers had next to no decent cars to sell."
The car marketed itself thru tasteful styling(outside atleast), aggressive pricing, size, feature content, and impressive magazine articles. Infiniti created a product that people wanted and the dealers sell them. Lexus didn't create a car people want with the IS. It's that simple.
riez, you're looking at product sales as only the function of push type marketing. If Lexus produces a vehicle that people truly want (as they have done in the past with vehicles like the current RX and LS....) people will come into the showroom knowing exactly the car they want to buy. Its up to Lexus to design a vehicle to pull consumers in the showroom. The IS was NEVER that vehicle.
I really dont see any cannibalization effects of a successful IS on the ES- the two products overlap just about... NOT AT ALL. The carry similar price tags, but who goes in for an IS and comes out with an ES, or vice versa? If the IS increases sales, IMO, it will come at an increased market share for the Lexus brand, not at a constant market share with different sales distributions.
~alpha
Lexus left the IS to die starting in CY2002. After they foolishly failed to ensure the MY2001s had a manual transmission and the IS was pounded in the press for the huge oversight.
About the only ads I see that even include IS300 are Tire Rack ads pushing winter tires and all you see is a picture of the IS300.'
Heck, Lexus' own magazine rarely has any coverage about the IS300.
Where I live, when I compare the two Lexus dealers I've dealt with to the two BMWs dealers I've dealt with, the BMW salespeople and servicepeople know a heck of a lot more about sport sedans than the Lexus guys. Both of my nearest BMW dealers are big supporters of BMW CCA and their respective local chapters. The BMW dealers host events, have car clinics, etc. These are for the more serious BMW owners.
I got to know one service advisor at my local BMW dealer pretty well. He was a BMW CCA member. Thinking he drove a '97 M3. He showed it to me and discussed his mods. He loved to talk about BMWs, their performance cars, and he knew his stuff. The Lexus dealer's staff hardly know anything about ISs. When they talk, all they know are ES, LS, and SUV.
Whenever I've gone into a Lexus dealer in the past 2 years, I've seen only two new IS300 ever sitting in the dealer's showroom, at that was at only one of the dealers. The other dealer never puts an IS300 in his showroom. But both dealers ensure there are ES, LS, and SUVs in their showrooms. Even more SCs!
Of course there is little cannibalization between ES and IS right now. The Lexus dealer lots are filled with new ESs. They hardly have any ISs on their lots. They push and push big ES sales. They neglect IS sales. They want to sell ESs and not ISs.
Beats me. I don't sit around chalking up the number of ads I see on my wall when one comes around. But I have seen IS300 ads on TV. How many BMW 3-series ads do you see currently on TV? I can't remember the last time I saw one and yet, in it's last year of production for the current generation it's selling strong.
"Lexus left the IS to die starting in CY2002. After they foolishly failed to ensure the MY2001s had a manual transmission and the IS was pounded in the press for the huge oversight."
Lexus left the IS300 to die? Again. They advertised it. The IS300 even got huge press from auto magazines etc. Most of whom gave the IS300 glowing reviews even with just the automatic. You blame it on dealers on your previous post, yet right in the above statement you attribute the IS300s failure to Toyota Motor Company and also their failure to bring out a manual at launch. How was that the dealer's fault? IMO, even if they brought out the manual transmission at launch, it would have still gotten eaten alive in the marketplace by the BMW 3-series, G35, & A4. Why? INterior styling/quality, power, and features.
"Both of my nearest BMW dealers are big supporters of BMW CCA and their respective local chapters."
How many potential 3-series customers even care about racing and techno babble? Come on, the majority of 3-series buyers buy it for style, prestige, safety, etc. Not many of it's customers care or even know what BMW CCA is. Nor do the majority of them care how fast the car can do the slalom run. BMW has marketed the car correctly, has built a consistent image for the 3-series from generation to generation and that's why it sells. A salesperson telling a customer who is going to put 2 child seats in the backseat and commute to and from work cares $0.02 about BMW CCA or how well in can autocross.
"Whenever I've gone into a Lexus dealer in the past 2 years, I've seen only two new IS300 ever sitting in the dealer's showroom, at that was at only one of the dealers. The other dealer never puts an IS300 in his showroom. But both dealers ensure there are ES, LS, and SUVs in their showrooms. Even more SCs!"
I've said this before I'll say it again, the dealers don't have IS300's because they can't sell them. You can try and blame a Lexus dealer all you want, but it ain't gonna work. It starts with product. Dealers tried to push the IS300 in the beginning, customers didn't bite. Therefore sales slow down(Because demand slows down), which forces the factory to make less, which means each dealer gets less IS300s to sell(ultimately because the entry level luxury car buyer doesn't want the IS300).
The RX300 is a perfect example. It was a totally new product in a totally new segment. Toyota had modest hopes for the RX300 in 1998. They marketed it, people loved it, bought tons of them, and they keep advertising them. The more they sell of the RX300's, the more money they can spend on marketing to grow or sustain market share. Lexus dealers didn't know anything about SUVs in 1998, they learned how to market them because the RX300 became a enormous product for them. The IS would have done the same as the RX300 if Lexus(corporate) designed it properly for the American market. They didn't and it didn't sell. It's the manufacturer's responsibility first to market the product effectively and to get prospective customers to the showroom, from their the dealer takes over. Lexus never did that with the IS300.
When I look back over the initial reviews in Automobile, R&T, C&D, MT, etc., I don't see any "glowing reviews". The press thought the car had potential that wasn't met at launch. One big thing was the lack of the manual transmission. Believe it was C&D or R&T that phrased it akin to "bringing a knife to a gunfight".
Thinking I've made myself pretty clear about where sales issues lay (lie?). It is the JOINT failure of Toyota/Lexus (who failed to properly market the car at launch and ensure it had a manual transmission) and its dealers (who pushed the easier to sell SUVs and ESs, and never learned how to connect to the IS demographic, which is the youngest demographic in USA for any Toyota product, including Scion!).
There wasn't anything difficult about Lexus dealers selling RXs at introduction and in its first year. Remember, the RX is a Camry-based car platform, not the older body-on-frame truck platform. The SUV market was hot. The car-platform SUV market was red hot. Ford was having problems with its Explorer. GM and Chrysler stuck with older product. Infiniti didn't have a modern platform. Neither did Acura. The X5 is in a different segment and there was no X3. The MB ML had terrible quality problems and was truck based. How hard to you think it was for the average Lexus dealer and salesperson to sell a big, 4-door vehicle like the RX? Appealed to the traffic that walked in the door.
They still gave the car great reviews, and in many ways said it was better than the BMW 3-series, even without the manual transmission. Heck, they even kinda liked the interior. They praised it's handling from Day 1, even saying many times it handles better/feels better than a 3-series.
"It is the JOINT failure of Toyota/Lexus (who failed to properly market the car at launch and ensure it had a manual transmission) and its dealers (who pushed the easier to sell SUVs and ESs, and never learned how to connect to the IS demographic, which is the youngest demographic in USA for any Toyota product, including Scion!).
"
Not a joint failure. It is a full failure of Toyota to build a proper IS300 for the american market. If one out of 7 products has a sales proportion of let's say 5% and on the decline, why is any dealer going to give it showroom space? why is any dealer going to give it advertising time? And thinking back, in it's initial year the IS300 actually sold pretty well, so there's another theory shot about dealer's not caring. It's all about product or in this case lousy product for the NA market.
"There wasn't anything difficult about Lexus dealers selling RXs at introduction and in its first year."
Actually there was difficulty. the initial press was not good for the RX300. New York Times bashed it, C&D didn't give it rave reviews, nor did MT, Automobile. THere was virtually no pre-launch waiting list and there wasn't much for a few months after introduction. You know what sold the RX300? ITSELF, the product. Once people got passed the articles and actually drove it, it sold.
"Remember, the RX is a Camry-based car platform, not the older body-on-frame truck platform. The SUV market was hot. The car-platform SUV market was red hot. Ford was having problems with its Explorer. GM and Chrysler stuck with older product. Infiniti didn't have a modern platform."
Isn't it just proving my point that it is all about the PRODUCT, and not the DEALER? It seems like you're saying it's the product "SUV market was hot", "car platform".
Have you all known this already?
Toyota just released the new Mark-X, which I believe is the next IS300... Your opinions?
http://response.jp/list/recent_newmodel.html
I know you probably can't read Japanese. Just click on any title with 'X' in it. See the pictures. A lot of them.
3.0L V6 256ps@6200 direct fuel injection engine.
2.5L V6 215ps@6400
~alpha
Automobile Magazine:
- April 1999, Toyota Altezza AS200
- June 2000, 1st drive IS300 automatic
- unknown, 1-page discussion on IS300, G35, and 3 Series (when G35 introduced)
- October 2003: 12-car comparison. IS300 manual comes in 7th. TSX 1st, 325i 2nd, and G35 3rd.
Bimmer:
- April 2001 comparison test between $38,285 330Ci manual and $33,805 IS300 automatic.
Car & Driver:
- October 2000, full road test 2001 IS300 automatic.
- January 2001, 6-car comparison. IS300 automatic comes in 3rd behind A4 2.8 Quattro automatic and 325i Sport manual.
- March 2002 Long-term Test wrap up, covering 40,000 miles.
- June 2002, Short Take on 2002 SPORTCROSS.
- March 2004: 7-car comparison. $31,944 IS300 manual comes in 4th behind TL, $35,540 325i and G35.
- February 2002: 7-car comparison, all manual transmissions. $33,896 IS comes in 3rd behind A4 3.0 Quattro and $38,972 330i Sport.
Consumer Reports:
- May 2001: 4-car comparison. The $34,600 IS300 automatic comes in 2nd behind $40,860 330i automatic.
Motor Trend:
- September 2002, IS300 L-tuned Edition
- August 2002 1-year test verdict of 2001 IS300 automatic, covering 11,360 miles.
- September 2000, 3-car comparison with IS300 automatic, 328i 5-speed manual, and Catera Sport automatic. $34,090 IS comes in 2nd behind $42,230 328i Sport.
- May 2000, First Drive 2001 IS300 (automatic)
Road & Track:
- August 2000, full road test 2001 IS300 automatic
- April 2001, 4-car comparison test with IS300, 330i, C320, and S60 T5. All automatics. The $34,156 IS comes in 2nd behind $39,804 330i.
- unknown, First Drive SPORTCROSS
- April 2002, Long-term Test Wrap Up covering 50,430 miles.
- July 2002, 11-car comparision test with IS300 manual transmission. Comes in 3rd, behind 330i and G35.
Sports Car International:
- Oct/Nov 2000, 2001 IS300 sedan automatic
- January 2002, L-tuned Sedan
can you please provide us a translation of the site you referred to.
http://response.jp/list/recent_newmodel.html
regarding your info sources on the IS: WOW! is the only thing I can say.
Your information on rankings of #'s 3 or 4 in comparos just goes to prove it's not the dealers that kill demand for the IS300, it's the manufacturer. And the IS300 falling soo fast in comparison tests only a year or two after introduction shows it wasn't a great product to begin with unlike the BMW 3-series.
I remember a number of magazines & articles in newspapers not giving in the best of reviews. And by this I mean, the typical glowing reviews that Lexus products typically get as luxury products(not sport products). All the magazines basically praised the ride/luxury, but bashed the handling and the un-Lexus like ergonomics(you know the center screen). And I remember a big bashing point was the wide center console which supposedly ate into driver's leg room for the right leg.
But you know the ironic thing, as soon as sales started to take off despite the soo-soo reviews, the magazine reviews got better and in comparison tests it was ranking near the top. Go figure.
One C&D test (1/01) had an automatic IS versus a Sport Pkg-equipped 325i manual. And sometimes it wasn't even fairly tested against the 328i/330i. MT's 9/00 comparison had the IS300 automatic versus a 328i Sport Pkg-equipped manual.
The 2/02 C&D comparison test was the "infamous" one in which Lexus sent the IS300 shod with all-season 205/55VR16 tires!!! The winning BMW had the Sport Pkg that included the larger high performance "summer" tires (225/45ZR17s up front and 245/40ZR17s in back).
There seems to be a ton of overlap in Toyota's JDM lineup... it's a rwd, I6-powered sedan with some luxury to it.
I'll never forget the Cressida. My friend had one with bright purple upholstery...
So does this mean that the next Lexus ES330 and the RX330 will not be based on the same platforms as the Toyota Camry and Highlander.
Providing different platforms for the ES330 amd RX330 would be an expensive undertaking and would contradict Toyota's shrewd cost effective manufacturing.
In fact just because Lexus will exist in Japan does mean the death of platform sharing between Lexus and Toyota.
If the future Lexus RX330 and the ES330 turn out to be re-badged Toyota vehicles, why cannot an IS be based on Toyota Mark-X?
So according to what Toyota has said about the future intentions of Lexus in 2005 and going forward, the Windom will turn into the LExus ES330 in Japan.
Sure, the next IS can be based the Mark X, by which I mean the platform, but the Mark X in exterior and interior styling is not the next Lexus IS. Also, I believe the Mark X is too large to be the IS. THe Mark-X is like Lexus ES/GS size.
Unfortunately that is my opinion but not the majority opinion. Size sells--even for performance sedans.
Most people loved the bigger size of the Infiniti G35 more than the G20. I am willing to make a bet that a significant increase in size for the IS will get an improved reception from buyers. In that case I do not see why the IS cannot be based on the Mark-X. It would redefine the IS as the Infinti G series was redefind by the G35.
I'm next IS300 is sure to grow, but I doubt it will grow past 180".
64K TLs thru Oct-04 vs. 26K TSX's thru Oct-04. Much greater than 1/10th.