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2. Why make a new IS with less power than the current one? One of the main knocks on the car is lack of power!
3. With a larger car, I wouldn't hold me breath for a curb weight under 3300 lbs.
4. In a perfect scenario the IS would have 3 engines. 225HP, 275HP, and 350HP.
5. Lexus' number one priority with this car is to increase sales significantly over the current car. More room, power and interior comfort are essential.
DrFill
The purpose of a IS250 would be as a price leader, to get more prospective customers into the door. IF the IS250 is $28K and the IS300/IS350 is priced about where the IS300 is now, that's great. Why wouldn't you sell a IS250 at $28K or so? This would give a car to directly compete with the BMW 325, Audi A4 1.8t and Mercedes C230/C230K.
"One of the main knocks on the car is lack of power!"
The current IS300 doesn't lack power, it's got 215bhp. What the current car lacks is proper engineering. Somewhere, the power is getting eaten up. I referred to this subject in a earlier post with the GS and IS having the same engine yet the IS is barely quicker despite 400 less lbs. to lug around.
"In a perfect scenario the IS would have 3 engines. 225HP, 275HP, and 350HP."
In my perfect scenario, the IS would have the price leader IS250(2.5L 6, with about 200bhp) priced at about $27 to $28K base. As I said earlier it gives Lexus a car to compete head on with the BMW 325i, Audi A4 1.8t, Benz C230/K.
You refer to a lack of power, but if the IS250 has about 200bhp, it should accelerate even quicker than the IS300 does today, assuming negligible weight gain. And let's face it, I don't think everyone is the world is looking for 0-60 times. If the IS250 has stellar handling, a better interior than the current IS, and the features to compete it will sell.
NExt up would be a IS350 with a 3.5L 6 with about 250 to 280bhp.
And then you would have something close to a M3 competitor, which would be powered by a supercharged or a twin-turbo version of the 3.5L 6 putting out close to 400bhp.
"Lexus' number one priority with this car is to increase sales significantly over the current car. More room, power and interior comfort are essential."
Agree completely. I think it starts with tailoring the IS to more American tastes, and that means to design a much nicer, Lexus-like interior for the next IS. A real armrest, none of the design gimmicks of todays, IS, more back seat room, more shoulder room, and of course throw in all the features every other car in the class has.
Hats off to Infiniti for their worthy attempt with the G35. The key reason for the G35 success story was that it was introduced to beat(not compete) the 3 series and to compete with the 5 series. A 5 series competitor priced like a 3 series is a vey ambitious goal.It is debatable whether Infiniti had accomplished that goal. What is not debatable is that the G35 attempt was a very profitable success story.
There is nothing wrong for Lexus to be a bit more ambitious with its 2nd edition of the IS.
I dont know of any plans for forced induction. Lexus has stated that the IS350GT will NOT get hybrid power, so I dont think it will have more than 300hp
The IS MUST compete DIRECTLY with the 3 Series, as it is the leader in image and sales. You can do it two ways, directly, like the A4, match it in size, power, and agility. Or overpower it (TL, G35, CTS), and just make a bigger car with most of the ability and extra value thrown in.
The G worked firstly because of it's power. 260HP gets you noticed in this class. Acura noticed. So did Cadillac (a little late). That power advantage bought it the time to get the stick in. The coupe also helped IMMENSELY with a style the sedan lacks (somewhat).
And the price and agility complete the circle.
Lexus will not build an IS the size of the ES, and the now legendary LF-C concept shows they will stay the course, but will add power and an army of fighters (and features) to this class.
Put it this way. The way BMW is going, the new IS will make hay in this division. BMW is starting to lose what's important with their redesigns, and Lexus will correct it's mistakes, and do it well.
And how will a 200 HP car be faster than a 215Hp car, while carrying more weight?
Lexus does not see the 1.8T, S40, etc. as competition. These are cars that CAN'T compete at the head of the class. These are clearly second-tier sedans. Lexus swings for the fences. That's why I love 'em!
The next 3 will have more warts (IDrive, high price, over-engineered suspension) than the next IS will. BMW will help the comp catch up.
DrFill
Regarding the warts of the next 3 series---Idrive will be an option for the few masochist out there, the price levels have not yet been determined and its suspension is held in awe by many. Are those three things really warts?
What I meant by beating versus competing can best be described by the two examples below.
When Lexus introduced LS in the early 90s, it was priced less than a Mercedes E series and was competitive with an S series. The LS made Mercedes very nervous. When Toyota introduced the Prius ll, it turned the competion from Honda upside down(compare the waiting lists for a Civic Hybrid with a Prius).
As for BMW, I dont think the new 5 is nearly as good as the old one, and the magazine comparos seem to agree with that. If the new 3 is as "good" as the new 5, there could be a new champ in the catergory. Im not saying its going to be IS, but BMW may end up stepping aside for someone. Imagine if Acura made a SH-AWD TSX with around 250hp? How would the 3 stack up then?
Why shouldnt BMW or Mercedes expand their product lines down-market? Why is this called dumbing down? Because it may offend the senses of socially sensitive snobs! Well good riddance to them! As long as Mercedes/BMW continue producing expensive exciting cars with impressive features and performance they will continue thriving in the upper-end( whatever their low-end pursuits are.
Sales of expensive BMWs remain healthy despite several years of selling MINIs. I would not call that dumbing down! Having a great performing 1 series without the silly UnGermanic gizmos and toys may actually excite quite a few enthusiasts who love the spirit of the 2002.
In the case of Lexus it makes as much sense to expand downmarket as it makes sense for VW to move upmarket. Toyota covers the downmarket segment quite well without Lexus and Audi covers the upmarket segment quite well without VW.
The only trouble is, that perfect engine\transmission synergy is very hard to achieve. Lexus' V8, despite a (relatively) modest power output, especially in the LS, is still very competitive in terms of acceleration. They know how to get that engine to work its best. However, Toyota has never been strong with their sixes, inlines or Vs. No Toyota product that I can remember sold in the US has been able to get under 7 seconds powered by a 6. Its usually closer to 8. Audi has been in the same boat, and it looks like thats about to change with their FSI technology. I'm hoping that the new V6s from Toyota will be much stronger than Toyota's have been in the past. Yes I know the Supra TT is quick, but 1. its long out of production, and 2. you can make anything fast by slapping some big turbos on it.
What I do not agree with is that the 1` series is a dumbing down of the BMW product-line. What is so dumb about an inexpensive well engineered performance sedan. The only dumbness in such a move would be if it cannibalized 3 series sales. BMW better make sure that it is worth spending the extra money on a 3 series and in that case the 1 series would not be such a dumb move. If the product justifies the price than the product will sell!
Sure the 1-series may sell and may not cannabilize 3-series sales, but it doesn't really matter. What the 1-series will do is dilute BMW's brand image. One of the big reason BMW has a prestige image(as do other luxury makers) is because of the exclusivity factor(not everyone can afford a BMW). Having a 1-series and it's $20K sticker price means basically everyone can afford a BMW, which ultimately would hurt their prestige factor. It kinda ruins the "gotta have it" factor of a BMW if you see BMWs everywhere.
Elsewehere in Europe or Asia there are cheaper BMWs and the prestige of the higher level models remains intact. This is no contradiction, unless you live in North America.
In Europe, Mercedes makes commercial trucks and passenger vans. People there are used to them as a company that does everything. What remains to be seen is how people here will react to a 1 series, A class, and Audi A3. I think Audi is in less danger, as theres not that much prestige that comes with an Audi anyway.
Now a major battle is brewing at just below $30k for customers, and really BMW started this years ago with the 323/325i starting with a base (stripped) around $28k. The G35 base was there in 2003. Now we have TSX, S40, Audi Turbo, Benz Hatch, etc.
Lets say lexus will make a 2.5. If it has less power than the current car, you can't charge the same price, you must charge less. So there's your $28k. The going rate of HP in that class is 200-220. Lexus must also consider the class will gain 15-20 HP by 2006-7.
Considering Lexus sells well over 270,000 units without resorting to the <$30k prices, I'd make the best sports sedan I could for $31-32k, and build a coupe/conv option, plus a V8/Hybrid option. Have 19" wheels available, and manual trannys all around. I'd forsake the minor leagues and go for the heart of the market, $32-40k.
Just make it better, like the Acura TL, increase the price accordingly, and sell the benefits of the better car, and new versions.
And I'd give the '06 GS a good working over too, but that's another story....
DrFill
I mean, I guess if you're not into the driving part of driving, then that would be fine. The S60 2.5T is lots of fun, as is the TL, and the G35 is an absolute blast to throw into corners. The ES is none of those things. Nice car, fabulous interior for the money, but I could never own one.
That being said, I am looking forward to the new IS. If the interior is upgraded I will seriously consider getting one shortly after it comes out.
Problem is Lexus dealers find it easier to move ES to their "average" customer. And due to sharing platform with Camry, Lexus likely makes more money off each ES. There just hasn't been any push by Lexus or dealers to seriously promote and move IS. That has been since day 1.
Just check out the instrument panel and pedals. They tell you immediately what the IS is supposed to be about. Sporty, fun driving. Not swaddled, isolated luxury!
God help us if the next platform has wood trim! I hate the interiors on the new 5 Series and am betting BMW will make similar mistakes on the next 3 Series. Too feminine. Not driver oriented. Just look how they eliminated one gauge and the center stack no longer is slanted to face the driver!
I do like the current model year TL's interior after test driving one the other day. In fact, I liked a whole lot of things about the car. But several of the TLs on the dealer's lot had wheels on them with significant blemishes in their finishes. It was a flaking/peeling problem. Admittedly, the wheel problem and the fact that the car is FWD would prevent my wife and I from purchasing one as her next car.
I have to agree with reiz that the current IS300's interior suits the car just fine for what it is. Several people have complimented me on my IS300's interior. Many of them have just raved about how "cool" they thought it was. It works for me. Hey, when a car drives as good as an IS300 does, I can overlook the interior not being the best in class. The more that I drive other types of cars(e.g. friends' cars, family members, rentals for business trips, etc.), the better appreciation I have for my IS300 in myriad ways.
Ron M.
Interesting about the TL, I havent heard that before. I do know though that the old CL\TL Type-S with the 17" 5-spokes had problems with the finish getting damaged.
Please do not mix up luxury cars that are catered to comfort seekers with performance cars that are catered to enthusiasts. Your statement that most buyers want luxury when they pay over 30k in a car is true for the car market in general, but not neccessarily true for buyers of performance cars like a 3series or an IS. Most buy performance cars for the drive and handling of the vehicle.
Riez is right, luxury can distract us from that fun sporty driving feeling.
Wood option for an IS--that is scary!!Shame on BMW for even offer such a thing! That option is as relevent for the IS as a vinyl roof.
Toyota realizes it too, and that's why Lexus will be a brand in Japan too. Now that all the former high-end Toyotas will be designed as Lexuses, they really have no excuse. There should be a family look developing in a generation or two, and everything else people here expect. Or so the story goes.
As for Lexus promoting the IS, I believe they did. I think the car didn't succeed as Lexus had hoped because it was underpowered (look at the engines in the G35 and TL) and not as nice as the 3 series.
I agree 100% with lexusguy in that the next IS needs to have a "Lexus" interior. It should be BOTH luxurious and sporty. You may not like a wood interior, but the BMW sells just fine with it. And as lexusguy pointed out, Mercedes, BMW and Audi all have a knack for mixing driving pleasure with nice interiors (although I do agree that the shape of the new BMW interiors is not great). The Lexus interior should be best of class...after all it is a Lexus.
"....BMW and Audi all have a knack for mixing driving pleasure with nice interiors..."
Lexus has designed some very luxurious yet sporty interiors in the past also. The original SC300/400 had a good blend of luxury and sport on the inside as did the 1st generation GS300.
The IS300 is not underpowered in comparison to the 325i. Don't forget that the 325i outsells the much more expensive 330i by a factor of about 3 or 4 to 1.
No one buying just one car would cross-shop the ES and IS. Someone buying two different cars certainly could, as they are two completely different cars for different missions.
Audi, BMW, and MB each uses just one platform: A4, 3 Series, anc C-class. Infiniti used to have I35 and G35, but down just to G35. Only Lexus has and will continue to have two completely different cars doing different things: ES and IS.
There is no FWD 3 Series or C-class. FWD is an entirely different driving dynamic (since weight is up front and the drive wheels are also the steering wheels).
Audi, BMW, and MB use tons of options to broaden the appeal of the A4, 3 Series, and C-class. For example, leather, sunroof, and wood trim are OPTIONS on the 325i, the largest selling 3 Series.
Exactly. Even if the majority of 3s do not have the wood trim, it still needs to be an option. One size fits all interiors dont work. In fact, I believe the IS300 is the ONLY car in the segment to not offer interior trim options\upgrades other than the seats. The G35 was blasted (and with merit) for a lacking interior, and they have addressed that this year with real aluminum or actual wood trim other than tiny bits on the door handles. Lexus needs to do the same. The interiors of the new G and TL are just too good not to.
Also, Lexus needs a serious tuner division. I know everybody and their grandmother is jumping on the tuner bandwagon these days (even Chrysler) but it still needs to be done if Lexus wants their sporting cars to get noticed. Little unpublisized "L-tuned" upgrades arent working. Even though very few will be sold, its the "C55 vs. S4 vs. M3!" article that sells magazines, and gets people interested in the line.
riez, I wouldn't say that's completely true. People do crossshop some weird combination of cars, at least what seems weird. I have had friends who have looked at cars such as the Honda Pilot, Lexus, GS, BMW 3-series, and Chevy Avalanche. Another who looked at the Avalanche, 350Z convertible, Honda Accord Coupe, Toyota Solara convertible, Lexus ES300, and MB C230 at the same time to replace 1 car. So you can't exactly say "no one will cross-shop a ES with a IS".
However, cross-shopping is not really the same as outright comparing. One wouldn't, for example, expect that the T&C would perform in the same way as the Jetta. But often shoppers aren't decided about what kind of vehicle they want, and drive several different body styles.
Thus, it seems accurate to say that people might be cross-shopping the ES and the IS, but not necessarily trying to compare them as apples-to-apples.
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RWD 325i: optional wood trim
RWD IS300: N/A
FWD ES300: wood trim available
Notice, BMW doesn't have a second platform! So they know that if wood trim is a dealer maker, then they have to have it in the 3 Series option list. Absolutely not the case with Lexus. Lexus has the entire ES platform to push luxury!
Infiniti used to have the I35 and G35. Now just the latter. They used the I35 to compete more on luxury items.
why can't the IS push luxury also? It seems like if you're going to be a competitor to other cars such as the Audi A4, BMW 3-series you have to well, "compete", with them. And they both blend performance/sport and luxury quite well.
I think at $30K+ you have to have some luxury in a sedan, otherwise the product will be a sales disaster.
If you want to achieve maximum sales, then you have to minimize the product overlap, so they appeal to the maximum number of types of buyers. Even if one platform clearly outsells the other. But the other picks up buyers that won't ever buy the former.
The IS is suppposed to be a serious all around sport sedan. The ES is supposed to be the sedate luxury sedan, one great for highway cruising. What is the point of making a luxury-oriented IS? Isn't that what the ES is about?
I don't hear anyone arguing that Lexus needs to make a "sport" ES. And you can't logically argue for the one (luxury IS) without the other (sport ES). So should Lexus have a Sport Pkg for the ES? Say with summer tires, LSD, bigger brakes, spoiler, dual exhaust, revised instrument panel?
Just look at GM. Buick, Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac have all too often used the same platform to chase the same buyers. Problem was they needed completely different platforms to appeal to different buyers. Or look at Mercury. A dying marque that rarely does more than offer gussied up Fords. Heck, now Ford is going to use Mazda platforms for use in Fords, Mercurys, and even Lincolns.
Just compare the performance figures for the 330i and the IS300, both automatic and manual. Very similar cars but the former outperforms the latter (though at a significant price differential when similarly equipped). Lexus set up the natural comparison. But the real price and performance comparison is with the 325i, where the IS300 clearly is a better overall car and value.
Of course, Lexus hasn't helped by failing to advertise it and failing to offer TRD items to give it more performance. Nor have dealers helped by failing to reach out to the performance-oriented market. And it didn't help in the minds of performance buyers that it only came out the first year with an automatic transmission. The first year is when the IS received the clear majority of its full press reviews. And each and every full press review of the MY2001 IS panned the lack of a manual. Heck, Lincoln at least offered a manual with the MY2000 LS6, its first year. Then later killed the manual. (But after it got all the positive press for having a manual. Their dealers just can't sell to performance market.)
Even today, all the current IS needs to be competitive in the minds of performance buyers:
- standard LSD
- standard better high performance summer tires (e.g., Michelin Pilot Sports), as the Bridgestones are mediocre!
- 6-speed manual--with close ratio 1-5, deeper overdrive 6th, and numerically higher final drive: which would boost acceleration and increase highway fuel economy.
- standard rear spoiler
- standard "sportier" alloy rims
- optional "Sport" Pkg [notice how BMW has both optional Sport Pkg for 325i and 330i and Performance Pkg for 330i], esp. to get dedicated Sport Seats, and maybe even higher performance tires and more aggressive gearing
Failure #1 Intro of a sport sedan rival to the 325i with no available manual (regardless of how many will sell)
Failure #2 (minor, but noticeable)) Using the same auto as the Camry
Failure #3 Initial price points place too much emphasis on Lexus aura; doesn't mean poop to a performance sedan shopper
Failure #4 Lack of official performance (not cosmetic) equipment as either optional OEM or TRD catalog
Failure #5-8 ('02-'05) No performance enhancements to chase the competition - matter of fact, negligible updating of any kind!
Failure #9 Less promotion than Mercury's Cougar (the second one) - nearly non-existent advertising.
The person who is satified by the ES is not IS fodder, IMO. Riez got that one right too. Two substantially different audiences with one major priority difference: driving.
Improving a product does not mean altering it beyond recognition, and wood accents do not a luxury (or sport) sedan make. Ever.
We shall see what they can accomplish; we shall see...
I don't hear anyone arguing that Lexus needs to make a "sport" ES. And you can't logically argue for the one (luxury IS) without the other (sport ES)."
That doesnt make any sense. Making the IS more luxurious doesn't mean you have to destroy any of its sporting abilities. Keep the razor sharp steering, RWD, and performance oriented chassis. What they need to do, is fix the interior. Much better quality plastics. No cheesy dials for climate controls. A ML stereo option. Aluminum, or wood trim needs to be an option.
The ES is designed as a baby LS430. It doesnt compete with Germany, so it is completely irrelevant to what Lexus does with the IS. When you put the L badge on the front of the car, people expect a certain level of luxury to be on the inside. The current IS300 simply does not live up to those standards. If the new IS has an interior like the current one, it will get crushed again by A4, 330i, and G35.
They(Lexus) will make the next IS more luxurious while not killing the sport aspect. You know what's going to happen is that they are going to make it even more BMW 3-series like, Audi A4 like, which would be more luxurious than the current IS while still being sporty.
"If you want to achieve maximum sales, then you have to minimize the product overlap, so they appeal to the maximum number of types of buyers."
Are you also forgetting you have to design a product people want? They can minimize product overlap all they want, which they did with the current IS300, and look what happened-minimal buyers. Personally, giving the IS more luxury than it currently has is not going to take much sales away from the ES but will increase sales of the IS drastically by taking sales away from outside competitions(BMW, Audi, MB C-class).
See, the ES doesn't compete against cars like the BMW 3-series, Audi A4 anymore and doesn't compete with the G35, or Acura TSX. That's what the IS is there for, and the only way it will compete with them is by having a performance and luxury blend. A IS as a pure sports sedan won't survive in a $30K+ price category and frankly If they want to make it a pure sports sedan, send it over to Toyota showrooms.
What exactly is so wanting in the IS for "luxury" right now? Aluminum trim? I cross-shopped the 325 against the IS in detail (something few or none of you can claim), and the difference in luxury between the two is slight. Very slight.
Which one looks like it came from a $30K+ car? Which one looks like it should be in a Toyota?
In this case it is not worth a single word. Sit in an Audi and sit in a Subaru and you will know the difference between the "fit and finish" between the two. Audi's are number one in the industry for their interiors.(and I am not the only one with that opinion)
Based on the pictures of the TL and the A4, I think the IS has a fine interior! At least it is distinct and the design influences your andrenalin levels for some serious driving.(at least it raises my andrenalin)
The IS cockpit works. It's straight forward and complete. With few absolutely minor exceptions everything is right where it needs to be. It's a great set up. Nobody's arguing that brushing up won't help, but that's a far cry from from a reason to pass on a real driver's car.
It's almost as ridiculous as the outcry by one or more indivduals locally over the tail lights. What nutcase passes on a car because of tail light lenses? Hint: someone who doesn't really care much how it drives!
This is why I look at the next gen prospect with a cynical eye. In an effort to capture volume, I believe they will concentrate on a number of areas that do nothing to truly improve upon the platform they already have. In short, they will pander to "special interest groups" who have no serious interest in the core concept to begin with, which pretty much shoots it in the foot for those who do. Might not happen, but indications initially are not great.
BTW, nobody does interiors better than Audi, IMO, but that's absolutely across the board. From A4 to A8L, whatever they offer is cleaner, better though out and more sumptuous and stylish than any competing model from any manufacturer, except perhaps Benz. Their only current weakness is the NAV display and format. The new NAV takes care of that, though.
Those who obsess over tailights and wood trim really are more likely in the ES state of mind! If that is what you want, Lexus has the ES.
Since Audi, BMW, and MB don't have a second platform, they try to be all things to all people with their A4, 3 Series, and C-class. But notice the sales figures when you compare their sedan sales to those combined for the IS and ES!