"The ES3XX will continue on in the Lexus line-up."
Ah, but in what form? Lexus has clearly said that starting with the next GS Lexus models will all be designed completely separate from any Toyota and use exclusive platforms. So, if the ES continues it will not be based on a Camry platform anymore.
- 3.8-4.2L all-aluminum DOHC 4v/c VVTi/e I6 - low restriction true dual exhaust - 6-speed manual with direct drive (1.00:1) 5th and a nicely deep overdrive (say around 0.70:1) - standard LSD - standard Michelin Pilot Sport tires -50/50 weight distribution - big Brembo brakes all around
Now that would make the start of a truly great next generation IS!!!
I believe the ES will continue to be FWD and maybe loosely based on the Camry platform. I see no reason why they would want to mess with the ES's success and make it RWD. With that, it also makes no sense to design a completely different platform just for the ES when the Camry platform is perfectly fine for ES duty also.
Also, the platform sharing helps keep the R&D cost way down, that's why a ES330 gives you alot more car for the money than other cars in it's price range-the C320, BMW 3-series, Cadillac CTS, Audi A4.
maxhonda99... You wrote, "that's why a ES330 gives you alot more car for the money than other cars in it's price range-the C320, BMW 3-series, Cadillac CTS, Audi A4."
All of the cars you mention are far better DRIVER'S cars than the FWD ES330. The EE330 is a sedate highway cruiser but it ain't no driver's car. Boring and reliable. That is why the IS300 exists. So Lexus has a serious sport sedan.
maxhonda99... What good is anything else if you don't have pure driving pleasure? I buy a car to enjoy driving. If all I want is features, etc., I'd much rather have a loaded Accord V6 or Camry V6 over the Camry-based ES330.
riez...I can't see how a C320 gives pure driving pleasure. I've driven one and it's nothing close to a IS300 or BMW 3-series in terms of driving pleasure.
Also, not everyone buys a car for driving pleasure. If everyone did, as you do, than the ES330 wouldn't be the 2nd biggest seller in it's class.
I myself had a few luxury vs. performance arguments before. These kind of arguments are like heated religious arguments between various Faiths.
The only thing that is gained from lux vs. perf. arguments is aggravation. In the end it all boils down to preferences and there is no good argument that can change preferences(unless you are a genius marketeer)
The IS300 is a serious all around sport sedan and touring (wagon). It is not designed to compete with FWD luxury cars like the ES330 and I35. It is designed to compete against RWD cars like 3 Series, G35, etc.
"Lexus has clearly said that starting with the next GS Lexus models will all be designed completely separate from any Toyota and use exclusive platforms. So, if the ES continues it will not be based on a Camry platform anymore."
From what I understand, the new Toyota Crown uses the same platform as the future GS, same transmission, and same engines. Will the new IS300 use a new platform? I find it hard to believe that they would go through all that trouble creating a platform to use ONLY on a IS300, or ONLY on a GS, etc.
This is why the new Miata will use the RX-8 platform. As affordable as a base RX-8 is which has a hand-built rotary engine and automatic transmission standard, I'm kind of surprised Ford isn't taking advantage of it. They need to use it on more cars than the Miata and RX-8.
I'm not sure lexus is gonna make an all new platform for its ES and IS. The ES is fdw and the IS is RWD. Unless the next ES becomes RWD, they won't be able to share platforms. And if the next ES becomes RWD, I don't see why there would be 2 RWD entry sedans in the lexus brand. I don't think they'll kill the ES, it's a good sellor. So it's probably gonna be a disguised camry another time. For the IS, building a new platform just for the IS series wouldn't be so expensive. What I mean is that they're gonna build coupes, wagons and convertibles on it so it's not gonna be so expensive.
"What I mean is that they're gonna build coupes, wagons and convertibles on it so it's not gonna be so expensive."
That just means the costs can be spread over more than one model, since the probability of higher sales for the new platform is greater, based on appeal to a larger market. From my understanding, that may or may not be enough to justify an entirely different platform for the IS. It all depends on the sales forecast, to a degree. If that forecast isnt met, and the only Scion/Toyota/Lexus on the IS platform is the IS, you're looking at a HUGELY expensive proposition.
Speculation at this point is that the SportCross will be dropped in its present form, though it may return as some kind of X-over based on the LF-X (or HPX).
Two thoughts on the new platform: a) Toyota plans to triple the sales of the IS; it's supposed to be Lexus's primary growth opportunity for the future
b) Though they say the aim is "exclusivity" for the line, that does not preclude them from redefining the platform for use in the Toyota line up, as I'm sure the ES will continue to share commonality with Camry, and just as the Crown shares with the GS
They can certainly parts swap and platform share and maintain exclusivity, IMO. I think Ford pulls it off quite well with Jag, for example...
"is precisely why Lexus (or Nissan) will never steal the mantle from BMW"
Isn't BMW dropping the manual transmission on it's M3? All it takes is some key critical mistakes and a few #1 wins in some magazines and the tide can shift. The vast majority of BMW sales are based on prestige, magazine wins, and "look at me I have money" factor. Like anything else, some people think something that is more expensive to buy initially and more expensive to fix is the higher quality product. And being European also has more prestige than being Japanese. Lexus has done a lot just to be in the position they are, if they play their cards right and BMW makes enough critical mistakes (like dropping manual transmissions in the high performance models) then you never know.
If you buy on the low-end, it's more about reliability and saving money. The typical buyer that gets into the higher range is more concerned about prestige. Lexus and Infiniti needs to rack up the magazine wins, whether it's by having a better car or having better bang for the buck (which influences some comparisons). Get the win anyway you can. I think a combination of offering better bang for the buck, Lexus prestige and reliability, and getting the magazine wins is enough to shift the tide. Some people are biased against Japanese or European cars so each brand will always have its buyers, the ones you can change are the ones that look for prestige and more power/bang for the buck.
I think Toyota realizes that simply having the better handling/sporty car will win SOME buyers, but not as much as having bang for the buck like the Acura TL or prestige like Mercedes. Blending the two together and you have a winner, all the while having a sporty car that may fall short of the BMW, but comes close enough.
I think you have valid points, but I'm really talking only about knocking the 3 off the podium, since that's where the IS must play.
Your most valid point, IMO, is that BMW is probably most capable of taking themselves out of the game. To my point, I don't think anyone else will, especially if they remain focused on the improvements and innovations that matter to their core customer. Like making the trademark I-6 lighter, more efficient and more powerful, all at the same time.
Where I disagree is that they can hope to take any fair amount of 3-series customers away without having a better performer in every way. I don't think they can, either by prestige (which they can't really match) or value (which they easily can and have exceeded).
BTW, even in the absence of a third pedal, a sequential manual is still a manual... ;-)
Between SMGs and DSGs, I predict the eventual all but total demise of the third pedal in this country in perhaps in a decade or less. Just my theory!
Hey, I know why it's not gonna be so expensive for lexus to build an all new platform for its IS! I just read that it was gonna be used for the new 2005 toyota supra, too. Finally, it seems that lexus won't all have its own platforms in the future: camry/ES, supra/IS, crown/GS, 4runner/GX, highlander/RX, sequoia/VX.
States that the next IS will not have hybrid technology (but the LS and GS will... in their high-end versions).
The high-end IS will get the 3.5L engine. It was a small blurb in the first part of the magazine.
On a related note, pics of the new 3-series are floating around and I think Lexus has a huge opportunity with this next IS to steal significant market share from BMW. The new 3 interior looks cheap, and the exterior is bland.
The LF-C is supposed to show how the next generation IS sedans, coupes AND convertibles are gonna look like. Well if I remember well, it was a hard top convertible, like a coupe/convertible at the same time. So if they build this hard top convertible, they won't really need a coupe since the convertible can be both. Perhaps that's a sign there'll be no coupe or the convertible won't be a hard top. Anyway I wonder how they're gonna be called... IC300/350? IS300/350 coupe and convertibles? If we look at the SC, the C means coupe or convertible and it is derived from the LS. So perhaps they're gonna do the same thing and call it GC or FC or something else...
I was at the Lexus Taste of Luxury driving event this past weekend and spoke with the Lexus head of marketing for the Midwest region. He said the next IS, going on sale in about one year from now, will offer two engines, a 2.5 V6 and a 3.5 V6. Horespower for both is undertermined at this time. Also, there will be three models, a sedan, coupe and convertible. He also mentioned all-wheel-drive will only be offered on the 2.5-equipped models. Finally, he said Lexus is having their annual new products meeting in September, which is only attended by dealer owners and some other really high-up Lexus personnel. At this meeting, the first unveiling of the IS will be shown internally. Up to now, nobody at the dealer level has seen the car.
A 2.5 V6 is a good idea. That version will be able to compete with BMW's 325, Mercedes' C230, 1.8T Audi A4, Acura's TSX and Cadillac's 2.8 V6 CTS. Are you sure about the 3.5 V6? Wasn't it supposed to get a 3.0 V6 making around 245 hp?
The 3.5 V6 will be the same engine as in the new GS. There will be no 3.0 V6, he was positive on that. If you notice the new GS is never referred to as the GS 300, just the GS V6. Lexus does not want to tip its hat, because it will be the GS 350.
What's interesting is this guy said the 3.5 in the IS will most likely put out more horsepower than it will in the GS.
The Lexus guy I talked to (the head of marketing for the midwest region) specifically said the GS and IS will get a 3.5 V6. He said if you look at media reports since the GS was shown in January at Detroit that Lexus has never said it will be a 3.0 V6. They simply refer to the car as the GS V6. According to him, the IS will offer both the 3.5 V6 and a 2.5 V6, while the GS will have the 3.5 V6 and 4.3 V8.
News The sportiest Lexuses will be clean-sheet fresh as an '06 model. The LF-C concept from the '04 New York Auto Show provides solid clues to the redesign. For starters, the sedan should be joined by first-time IS coupe/convertible with a metal top that powers into the trunk. No word on whether the SportCross wagon continues, but other models will grow about 5 inches in wheelbase and some 4 inches wider than today's IS. Height may be reduced up to 2 inches. Overall length changes little. The added width should leave ample room for a first-time V8 option, likely Lexus's familiar 4.3, for IS 430 models. IS 300s should adopt a new 3.0-liter V6 with up to 245 hp. Both engines drive the rear wheels via a 6-speed automatic transmission with manual shift gate; a 6-speed manual may be offered for IS 300s. All-wheel drive should be another first-time option for this line, though perhaps limited to the sedan.
Denny Clements, the Lexus GM, said in an interview a few months ago that the IS will most likely NOT have a V8. It will, however, have two V6 choices to offer a broader range of power options. A high-up Lexus guy I spoke to at the recent luxury test drive event said the engines will be a 2.5 and a 3.5, with horespower unannounced at this point.
"In this generation, Crown has finally gave up the long-serving straight-6 engine. In place of it is a pair of V6s. The compactness of V6 should improve weight distribution, but its main benefit is cost sharing. In the past, Toyota has to make inline-6 engines for its FR cars and V6 for its FF cars. Now all of them can share the same V6s. The Crown employs a 3.0-litre V6 and 2.5-litre V6 depending on price. Both incorporates D-4 direct gasoline injection and dual VVT-i. The larger engine pumps out 256hp and 232 lbft of torque. The smaller generates 215hp and 192lbft. Both engines are able to deliver at least 90% of maximum torque at 2000rpm, thanks to the intake and exhaust variable valve timing. Notice their outputs are much higher than class average, thanks partly to the direct injection which allows higher compression ratio."
In the Toyota press release, the 3.0 V6 was advertised as going in the GS. Obviously that could have been a total lie to throw off the competition or they simply changed their mind and will now use a 3.5 V6 standard.
If the info is true about the 2.5 and 3.5 on the IS, and the 3.5 and 4.3 being on the GS, this makes me believe the following has to be true.
1) Using a 3.5 means the 4.3 V8 will have to put out more horsepower. If the 4.3 makes 300hp like in the press release, they will have to tweak the engine to put out more horsepower, else the 3.5 will be very close in horsepower to the 4.3.
2) A 2.5 Lexus IS means the car will have to come in around 25-26 grand starting price. I'm sorry but having a 30 grand car with a 2.5 that will probably put out around 215HP? I don't care about horsepower but I think that's cutting it a bit too much. I would have no problem having a 2.5 in the car (as long as the weight isn't out of hand), but the price would have to reflect it.
This set up doesn't make a lot of sense. A 3.0 in the base model with a 3.5 in higher-end IS sedan and/or AWD versions and exclusively for the coupe makes more sense. And having a 3.5 almost on top of the 4.3 in power doesn't make much sense either. Maybe the 4.3 hasn't been tweaked very much anyway and could put out 330hp with no problem.
"In the Toyota press release, the 3.0 V6 was advertised as going in the GS."
What press release are you referring to? Lexus has not stated the new GS will use a 3.0 engine as far as I know, only that hp will be 245. (If you are talking about the Crown, that is not the same car as the GS.)
At the bottom of the press release it clearly states it's a 3.0 V6.
Preliminary Specifications Wheelbase: 112.2 in. Length: 189.8 in. Width: 71.7 in. Height: 56.1 in. Engines: 3.0 liter V6 - 245 hp; 228 lb.-ft. of torque 4.3 liter V8 - 300 hp; 325 lb.-ft. of torque Transmission: 6-speed sequential automatic
I used the info about the Crown above to show the numbers for the 2.5, which is why I believe the IS will use a 3.0 and 3.5. The 2.5 is getting a bit weak and using the 3.0 will let them continue to call it an IS300 instead of an IS250. Even some people would consider the 3.0 a bit weak compared to the competition so going to a 2.5 doesn't seem likely, but who knows.
Like many other people, I thought the 3.0 in the GS seemed weak, especially in such a big car. But I think this helps not only leave room between it and the 4.3 V8 to justify someone getting the V8, but it also leaves breathing room for the cars above the GS. Like I said if you use the 3.5 then it'll be close to the 4.3 V8 in numbers, so they would have to bump up the numbers. But since Lexus seems interested in making a few cars above the GS, having the V8 stay around 300hp allows them to have the other cars higher in numbers without them having to make excessive numbers. Hopefully you know what I'm trying to say.
Thanks for pointing the 3.0 out in the press release. I don't believe I ever noticed that. I totally agree with you...we'll have to see what happens with both the new GS and IS.
The GS will get the 256 HP engine when the car is facelifted for 2008.
The IS will get the current 3.3L six with around 225-230 HP to start. This will compete with the 231 HP BWM 3-series 2006 engine. The 3.5 may be 256 now, but maybe tweaked higher, gien that BMW will show 258HP, Benz 268, Acura 270, Infiniti 280, Cadillac 255, etc. I EXPECT this engine to come in around 270, as this car needs the power to take off the way Lexus wants. It can't be at the bottom of the field again!
The V8 will be the 3rd and final engine in the US, and power will follow the GS430. I'd expect 325 at a minimum. The GS may roll with the 300HP V8 for the first year, then add power year 2, a mistake in my eyes.
There was an article in the LA Times about upcoming Lexus strategy. You have to have a (free) membership to view the article so I won't bother posting the link. Here is a tidbit from it.
"Convertible and coupe versions of Lexus' sportiest car, the IS 300 sedan, are due as 2006 models, with a new Lexus sport wagon styled like a lower, leaner SUV expected in 2007. The wagon is the first of a series of new crossovers — wagon or SUV styles built on conventional passenger car platforms — that Lexus is planning, Clements said. Many will be offered both as conventional gasoline-engine vehicles and as hybrids."
So I guess there's the sport wagon that some people wanted.
The GS will get the 256 HP engine when the car is facelifted for 2008.
Not sure I follow you here. The 256hp engine you are referring to is the same one I mentioned about the Crown right? That's the same 3.0 V6 the GS is getting out of the gate. The 256hp may be because it's tuned different, different quality of fuel, etc.
For example, the 2.3 Mazda3 makes 160hp in the USA. In Japan it's higher and uses premium fuel. I heard one reason for this is Japan has higher quality fuel than the USA. On the other hand, Australia 2.3 makes 154hp. I heard this is because Australia has lower quality fuel compared to the USA. So it's possible the 245hp figure mentioned in the press release is fairly accurate, since the figures may be different from country to country.
I'm just not sure why you said it won't get it until the 2008 facelift.
The IS will get the current 3.3L six with around 225-230 HP to start.
As far as I know the 3.0 engine in the Crown/GS is different from the 3.3 in the ES330 and Camry. I always assumed the IS would use the same engine as the GS, but I haven't seen any official info on this so either scenario is possible. The IS is suppose to have at least two engine choices though, so I figured they would give the same 3.0 as the GS (don't want to give the base IS more power than the base GS) and then a 3.5 I guess for the upgraded versions and exclusively for the coupe since it will have more radical styling from the sedan supposedly and probably have bigger alloys standard, etc. I just think they will want to keep the engines different from the ones used in the Camry and ES, but again this is just a guess on my part.
The 3.5 may be 256 now...
Are you referring to the numbers of the Crown? Again that is the 3.0. The 3.5 should be making in the ballpark of the G35, TL, etc. If the 3.0 can make 245,256 or whatever then the 3.5 would have no problem competeing with the G35 and TL and the rest. Even though the 3.0 torque numbers look kind of low, since it supposedly produces a lot of that torque at 2000rpm it should be good for most average people.
I base all my guesses on the fact that Lexus says the base GS will get the 3.0. Giving the 3.0 to the IS doesn't make the GS look bad, and then the 3.5 would still be lower than the V8 obviously so GS owners would still have bragging rights.
Huh....you have 2008 exact horsepower numbers today? Where did you get the info from? I find it hard to believe Toyota would have 2008 GS engine specs set today, 4 years ahead of time.
"So I guess there's the sport wagon that some people wanted"
Halleleluja, look forward to seeing the 07 wagon and how it compares with the competition. After a road trip vacation with my family it became quite clear how limited my 99 BMW 323 really is. The only souveigners we could buy were t-shirts( nothing else would fit)
Reading all the car magazines the past two months is driving me nuts. All the pictures and discussions about Audi's A3 5-door wagon, Mazda's 5-door hatchback 6, and even Kia's. So now they are hot? But nary a mention, even when they run down the list of competitors, of the SportCross.
If Lexus can't figure out how to get the word out about the SportCross today, makes me wonder how they will do it in future.
Everyone who see's my wife's bright red '04 SportCross loves it. They usually say the same thing:
"Cool car. What is it?"
And once told it is a Lexus SportCross, they say:
"I didn't know Lexus made this."
Too bad Lexus dealers are fixated on selling ES330s and RX330s, and the other behemouth SUVs.
I think Lexus has just given up on the IS300 altogether. I still stand behind my argument that they dropped the ball on the interior and taillights. There's other factors that can be added but I think these two things got it off on the wrong foot. The majority of these buyers want an automatic so it can't be blamed on no manual at the beginning IMO. The car is small but the BMW 3-series isn't exactly big. The power isn't overwhelming but it's not terrible. Lexus is about image with a lot of people, and the taillights and interior gave the IS300 an image that typical Lexus buyers didn't want to be associated with.
I really think the people who can afford a Lexus didn't want the clear taillights and that kind of interior. I think this is shown with the average age of the buyers of the IS, it's pretty young for a $30,000 car. I think Lexus wants volume, a solid seller, with their entry level car, not a niche vehicle which is what happened.
1. Lack of a manual transmission at time of introduction back in CY2000 (MY2001) killed it in the press. Just go back and read the old reviews. Every one stresses the lack of a manual. So it started off with bad press.
2. Lack of ongoing advertising has also hurt it. When was the first or last time you saw an IS300 ad on TV? In print? Can't say I've ever seen an ad for the SportCross!
3. Dealer disinterest has been a huge sales killer. Dealers hardly order any. Salespeople hardly know what to do with it. All they care about are moving ES300/330s and RX300/330s. And the big SUVs. That is where they want to make money and they don't care about losing sales to BMW 325i/330i or A4.
I agree with all those things. But again I don't think the no manual at launch/bad press did the car in. If someone reading it wants an automatic and sees the magazine bash the car specifically because of no manual what do they care? The G35 had no manual at launch and people were saying the same thing would happen to it but it seems to be holding its own fine. Had the car been badged as a Toyota this would have been more important. They were trying to market the car to a Lexus buyer, big mistake.
Yes I haven't seen an advertisement for it in a long time, but the same can be said for other cars as well and they sell significantly better. The SportCross I agree with, some people probably have no clue it even exists. The sedan on the other hand I think they know it's out there. Even the X-Type is selling better than the IS300. The Avalon is selling better than the IS300 and I can't remember the last time I saw an advertisement for it.
I'm actually sort of glad to see the IS300 fail. I think Toyota thought they could put a Lexus badge on anything and it would sell regardless. Had they been proven right they would try to pull the same thing again. Not saying the IS300 is a bad car, it just belongs as a Toyota and would have done wonders for the brand image that Toyota has pretty much given up on now that they've started Scion.
I still stand behind that it's the image the IS300 gives. The RX may have clear taillights but it does have the SUV image and more appealing interior to the masses to back it up. The IS300 has a boyracer image that the typical Lexus buyer won't go for. It would have taken some very creative marketing to convince older people to go for the car. Get rid of the fancy options, strip it down to the $25k range and badge it as a Toyota. Would have done better than the MR2 Spyder.
pzev... The IS was and is a boy racer. But it had to be much more performance oriented. Lexus already had/has the ES to market to the sedate driver. That is part of the IS's marketing and positioning problems.
Take BMW's class leading 3 Series. BMW doesn't have a RWD 3 Series and a FWD 3 Series in the same price range. But BMW does have an M3. Not to mention AWD, wagon, coupe, and convertible. With two engines (2.5L and 3.0L) and MT/AT availability.
And since the ES is based on the huge selling Camry, bet Lexus makes a ton more money on each ES than on each IS. So dealers push the higher profit ES. Much harder to sell the IS which is a niche product. But that means focuses, dedicated marketing support.
Why has TRD failed to support the IS? Heck, you can get a supercharger for Sienna, Corolla, and TC but not IS??? So they won't even supply "hot" parts for their "hottest" car? Go figure. Makes no sense. Why create what you won't market and support?
Comments
Ah, but in what form? Lexus has clearly said that starting with the next GS Lexus models will all be designed completely separate from any Toyota and use exclusive platforms. So, if the ES continues it will not be based on a Camry platform anymore.
- low restriction true dual exhaust
- 6-speed manual with direct drive (1.00:1) 5th and a nicely deep overdrive (say around 0.70:1)
- standard LSD
- standard Michelin Pilot Sport tires
-50/50 weight distribution
- big Brembo brakes all around
Now that would make the start of a truly great next generation IS!!!
Also, the platform sharing helps keep the R&D cost way down, that's why a ES330 gives you alot more car for the money than other cars in it's price range-the C320, BMW 3-series, Cadillac CTS, Audi A4.
All of the cars you mention are far better DRIVER'S cars than the FWD ES330. The EE330 is a sedate highway cruiser but it ain't no driver's car. Boring and reliable. That is why the IS300 exists. So Lexus has a serious sport sedan.
Also, not everyone buys a car for driving pleasure. If everyone did, as you do, than the ES330 wouldn't be the 2nd biggest seller in it's class.
There is no comparison between FWD ES330 & I35 and any of the RWD sport sedans (e.g., IS300, G35, C-class, and 3 Series).
I've had the experience of driving both the I30 and ES300. As loaner cars. Nothing to write home about.
I didn't bring up the ES to begin with.
I myself had a few luxury vs. performance arguments before. These kind of arguments are like heated religious arguments between various Faiths.
The only thing that is gained from lux vs. perf. arguments is aggravation. In the end it all boils down to preferences and there is no good argument that can change preferences(unless you are a genius marketeer)
From what I understand, the new Toyota Crown uses the same platform as the future GS, same transmission, and same engines. Will the new IS300 use a new platform? I find it hard to believe that they would go through all that trouble creating a platform to use ONLY on a IS300, or ONLY on a GS, etc.
This is why the new Miata will use the RX-8 platform. As affordable as a base RX-8 is which has a hand-built rotary engine and automatic transmission standard, I'm kind of surprised Ford isn't taking advantage of it. They need to use it on more cars than the Miata and RX-8.
That just means the costs can be spread over more than one model, since the probability of higher sales for the new platform is greater, based on appeal to a larger market. From my understanding, that may or may not be enough to justify an entirely different platform for the IS. It all depends on the sales forecast, to a degree. If that forecast isnt met, and the only Scion/Toyota/Lexus on the IS platform is the IS, you're looking at a HUGELY expensive proposition.
~alpha
Speculation at this point is that the SportCross will be dropped in its present form, though it may return as some kind of X-over based on the LF-X (or HPX).
Two thoughts on the new platform:
a) Toyota plans to triple the sales of the IS; it's supposed to be Lexus's primary growth opportunity for the future
b) Though they say the aim is "exclusivity" for the line, that does not preclude them from redefining the platform for use in the Toyota line up, as I'm sure the ES will continue to share commonality with Camry, and just as the Crown shares with the GS
They can certainly parts swap and platform share and maintain exclusivity, IMO. I think Ford pulls it off quite well with Jag, for example...
http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_cod- e=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=01213389
A competitive IS needs an I-6, says I. A lighter, more powerful I-6!
No brainer really...
;-)
Isn't BMW dropping the manual transmission on it's M3? All it takes is some key critical mistakes and a few #1 wins in some magazines and the tide can shift. The vast majority of BMW sales are based on prestige, magazine wins, and "look at me I have money" factor. Like anything else, some people think something that is more expensive to buy initially and more expensive to fix is the higher quality product. And being European also has more prestige than being Japanese. Lexus has done a lot just to be in the position they are, if they play their cards right and BMW makes enough critical mistakes (like dropping manual transmissions in the high performance models) then you never know.
If you buy on the low-end, it's more about reliability and saving money. The typical buyer that gets into the higher range is more concerned about prestige. Lexus and Infiniti needs to rack up the magazine wins, whether it's by having a better car or having better bang for the buck (which influences some comparisons). Get the win anyway you can. I think a combination of offering better bang for the buck, Lexus prestige and reliability, and getting the magazine wins is enough to shift the tide. Some people are biased against Japanese or European cars so each brand will always have its buyers, the ones you can change are the ones that look for prestige and more power/bang for the buck.
I think Toyota realizes that simply having the better handling/sporty car will win SOME buyers, but not as much as having bang for the buck like the Acura TL or prestige like Mercedes. Blending the two together and you have a winner, all the while having a sporty car that may fall short of the BMW, but comes close enough.
Your most valid point, IMO, is that BMW is probably most capable of taking themselves out of the game. To my point, I don't think anyone else will, especially if they remain focused on the improvements and innovations that matter to their core customer. Like making the trademark I-6 lighter, more efficient and more powerful, all at the same time.
Where I disagree is that they can hope to take any fair amount of 3-series customers away without having a better performer in every way. I don't think they can, either by prestige (which they can't really match) or value (which they easily can and have exceeded).
BTW, even in the absence of a third pedal, a sequential manual is still a manual...
;-)
Between SMGs and DSGs, I predict the eventual all but total demise of the third pedal in this country in perhaps in a decade or less. Just my theory!
I just read that it was gonna be used for the new 2005 toyota supra, too. Finally, it seems that lexus won't all have its own platforms in the future: camry/ES, supra/IS, crown/GS, 4runner/GX, highlander/RX, sequoia/VX.
The high-end IS will get the 3.5L engine.
It was a small blurb in the first part of the magazine.
On a related note, pics of the new 3-series are floating around and I think Lexus has a huge opportunity with this next IS to steal significant market share from BMW. The new 3 interior looks cheap, and the exterior is bland.
What's interesting is this guy said the 3.5 in the IS will most likely put out more horsepower than it will in the GS.
How many hp will the new IS V8 have?
"In this generation, Crown has finally gave up the long-serving straight-6 engine. In place of it is a pair of V6s. The compactness of V6 should improve weight distribution, but its main benefit is cost sharing. In the past, Toyota has to make inline-6 engines for its FR cars and V6 for its FF cars. Now all of them can share the same V6s. The Crown employs a 3.0-litre V6 and 2.5-litre V6 depending on price. Both incorporates D-4 direct gasoline injection and dual VVT-i. The larger engine pumps out 256hp and 232 lbft of torque. The smaller generates 215hp and 192lbft. Both engines are able to deliver at least 90% of maximum torque at 2000rpm, thanks to the intake and exhaust variable valve timing. Notice their outputs are much higher than class average, thanks partly to the direct injection which allows higher compression ratio."
In the Toyota press release, the 3.0 V6 was advertised as going in the GS. Obviously that could have been a total lie to throw off the competition or they simply changed their mind and will now use a 3.5 V6 standard.
If the info is true about the 2.5 and 3.5 on the IS, and the 3.5 and 4.3 being on the GS, this makes me believe the following has to be true.
1) Using a 3.5 means the 4.3 V8 will have to put out more horsepower. If the 4.3 makes 300hp like in the press release, they will have to tweak the engine to put out more horsepower, else the 3.5 will be very close in horsepower to the 4.3.
2) A 2.5 Lexus IS means the car will have to come in around 25-26 grand starting price. I'm sorry but having a 30 grand car with a 2.5 that will probably put out around 215HP? I don't care about horsepower but I think that's cutting it a bit too much. I would have no problem having a 2.5 in the car (as long as the weight isn't out of hand), but the price would have to reflect it.
This set up doesn't make a lot of sense. A 3.0 in the base model with a 3.5 in higher-end IS sedan and/or AWD versions and exclusively for the coupe makes more sense. And having a 3.5 almost on top of the 4.3 in power doesn't make much sense either. Maybe the 4.3 hasn't been tweaked very much anyway and could put out 330hp with no problem.
What press release are you referring to? Lexus has not stated the new GS will use a 3.0 engine as far as I know, only that hp will be 245. (If you are talking about the Crown, that is not the same car as the GS.)
At the bottom of the press release it clearly states it's a 3.0 V6.
Preliminary Specifications
Wheelbase: 112.2 in.
Length: 189.8 in.
Width: 71.7 in.
Height: 56.1 in.
Engines: 3.0 liter V6 - 245 hp; 228 lb.-ft. of torque
4.3 liter V8 - 300 hp; 325 lb.-ft. of torque
Transmission: 6-speed sequential automatic
I used the info about the Crown above to show the numbers for the 2.5, which is why I believe the IS will use a 3.0 and 3.5. The 2.5 is getting a bit weak and using the 3.0 will let them continue to call it an IS300 instead of an IS250. Even some people would consider the 3.0 a bit weak compared to the competition so going to a 2.5 doesn't seem likely, but who knows.
Like many other people, I thought the 3.0 in the GS seemed weak, especially in such a big car. But I think this helps not only leave room between it and the 4.3 V8 to justify someone getting the V8, but it also leaves breathing room for the cars above the GS. Like I said if you use the 3.5 then it'll be close to the 4.3 V8 in numbers, so they would have to bump up the numbers. But since Lexus seems interested in making a few cars above the GS, having the V8 stay around 300hp allows them to have the other cars higher in numbers without them having to make excessive numbers. Hopefully you know what I'm trying to say.
The IS will get the current 3.3L six with around 225-230 HP to start. This will compete with the 231 HP BWM 3-series 2006 engine. The 3.5 may be 256 now, but maybe tweaked higher, gien that BMW will show 258HP, Benz 268, Acura 270, Infiniti 280, Cadillac 255, etc. I EXPECT this engine to come in around 270, as this car needs the power to take off the way Lexus wants. It can't be at the bottom of the field again!
The V8 will be the 3rd and final engine in the US, and power will follow the GS430. I'd expect 325 at a minimum. The GS may roll with the 300HP V8 for the first year, then add power year 2, a mistake in my eyes.
DrFill
"Convertible and coupe versions of Lexus' sportiest car, the IS 300 sedan, are due as 2006 models, with a new Lexus sport wagon styled like a lower, leaner SUV expected in 2007. The wagon is the first of a series of new crossovers — wagon or SUV styles built on conventional passenger car platforms — that Lexus is planning, Clements said. Many will be offered both as conventional gasoline-engine vehicles and as hybrids."
So I guess there's the sport wagon that some people wanted.
Not sure I follow you here. The 256hp engine you are referring to is the same one I mentioned about the Crown right? That's the same 3.0 V6 the GS is getting out of the gate. The 256hp may be because it's tuned different, different quality of fuel, etc.
For example, the 2.3 Mazda3 makes 160hp in the USA. In Japan it's higher and uses premium fuel. I heard one reason for this is Japan has higher quality fuel than the USA. On the other hand, Australia 2.3 makes 154hp. I heard this is because Australia has lower quality fuel compared to the USA. So it's possible the 245hp figure mentioned in the press release is fairly accurate, since the figures may be different from country to country.
I'm just not sure why you said it won't get it until the 2008 facelift.
The IS will get the current 3.3L six with around 225-230 HP to start.
As far as I know the 3.0 engine in the Crown/GS is different from the 3.3 in the ES330 and Camry. I always assumed the IS would use the same engine as the GS, but I haven't seen any official info on this so either scenario is possible. The IS is suppose to have at least two engine choices though, so I figured they would give the same 3.0 as the GS (don't want to give the base IS more power than the base GS) and then a 3.5 I guess for the upgraded versions and exclusively for the coupe since it will have more radical styling from the sedan supposedly and probably have bigger alloys standard, etc. I just think they will want to keep the engines different from the ones used in the Camry and ES, but again this is just a guess on my part.
The 3.5 may be 256 now...
Are you referring to the numbers of the Crown? Again that is the 3.0. The 3.5 should be making in the ballpark of the G35, TL, etc. If the 3.0 can make 245,256 or whatever then the 3.5 would have no problem competeing with the G35 and TL and the rest. Even though the 3.0 torque numbers look kind of low, since it supposedly produces a lot of that torque at 2000rpm it should be good for most average people.
I base all my guesses on the fact that Lexus says the base GS will get the 3.0. Giving the 3.0 to the IS doesn't make the GS look bad, and then the 3.5 would still be lower than the V8 obviously so GS owners would still have bragging rights.
Halleleluja,
look forward to seeing the 07 wagon and how it compares with the competition.
After a road trip vacation with my family it became quite clear how limited my 99 BMW 323 really is. The only souveigners we could buy were t-shirts( nothing else would fit)
If Lexus can't figure out how to get the word out about the SportCross today, makes me wonder how they will do it in future.
Everyone who see's my wife's bright red '04 SportCross loves it. They usually say the same thing:
"Cool car. What is it?"
And once told it is a Lexus SportCross, they say:
"I didn't know Lexus made this."
Too bad Lexus dealers are fixated on selling ES330s and RX330s, and the other behemouth SUVs.
I really think the people who can afford a Lexus didn't want the clear taillights and that kind of interior. I think this is shown with the average age of the buyers of the IS, it's pretty young for a $30,000 car. I think Lexus wants volume, a solid seller, with their entry level car, not a niche vehicle which is what happened.
1. Lack of a manual transmission at time of introduction back in CY2000 (MY2001) killed it in the press. Just go back and read the old reviews. Every one stresses the lack of a manual. So it started off with bad press.
2. Lack of ongoing advertising has also hurt it. When was the first or last time you saw an IS300 ad on TV? In print? Can't say I've ever seen an ad for the SportCross!
3. Dealer disinterest has been a huge sales killer. Dealers hardly order any. Salespeople hardly know what to do with it. All they care about are moving ES300/330s and RX300/330s. And the big SUVs. That is where they want to make money and they don't care about losing sales to BMW 325i/330i or A4.
Yes I haven't seen an advertisement for it in a long time, but the same can be said for other cars as well and they sell significantly better. The SportCross I agree with, some people probably have no clue it even exists. The sedan on the other hand I think they know it's out there. Even the X-Type is selling better than the IS300. The Avalon is selling better than the IS300 and I can't remember the last time I saw an advertisement for it.
I'm actually sort of glad to see the IS300 fail. I think Toyota thought they could put a Lexus badge on anything and it would sell regardless. Had they been proven right they would try to pull the same thing again. Not saying the IS300 is a bad car, it just belongs as a Toyota and would have done wonders for the brand image that Toyota has pretty much given up on now that they've started Scion.
I still stand behind that it's the image the IS300 gives. The RX may have clear taillights but it does have the SUV image and more appealing interior to the masses to back it up. The IS300 has a boyracer image that the typical Lexus buyer won't go for. It would have taken some very creative marketing to convince older people to go for the car. Get rid of the fancy options, strip it down to the $25k range and badge it as a Toyota. Would have done better than the MR2 Spyder.
Take BMW's class leading 3 Series. BMW doesn't have a RWD 3 Series and a FWD 3 Series in the same price range. But BMW does have an M3. Not to mention AWD, wagon, coupe, and convertible. With two engines (2.5L and 3.0L) and MT/AT availability.
And since the ES is based on the huge selling Camry, bet Lexus makes a ton more money on each ES than on each IS. So dealers push the higher profit ES. Much harder to sell the IS which is a niche product. But that means focuses, dedicated marketing support.
Why has TRD failed to support the IS? Heck, you can get a supercharger for Sienna, Corolla, and TC but not IS??? So they won't even supply "hot" parts for their "hottest" car? Go figure. Makes no sense. Why create what you won't market and support?