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The GS' 7 year old platform and equipment list have to contend with new 545i and E500s, so its no surprise that sales stink. Very few cars have great sales at the end of their cycle, and 7 years is way too long anyway. The GS should've been replaced years ago, but Lexus was too busy pumping out SUVs to bother.
Without mfg and dealer support, an IS changed in this same direction won't be a big sales success, unless it steals sales from ES and GS.
"Limited-slip differential gets cut from manual transmission."
Thank God I bought an '04 IS300 5-speed manual with LSD!!!
Makes me wonder if '06 will have a manual? And if it does, will it have LSD?
1. You wrote, "Magazines may say tight back seat space, but does that mean it's as tight as a 3-series or IS300? No, it means it's tight relative to some other cars in it's class." My wife's '00 323ia had more rear seat space--legroom and kneeroom, than my '98 540i6. The 540i6 was wider, but the driveshaft hump made it only a 4 seater. And, yes, it was very tight relative to others in its class.
2. Last year I had no trouble getting a moderately decent price for my '98 540i6 with 80,000 miles. But I was also realistic. I know my car is only worth what someone will actually pay for it today. Not what books say or others might claim to get elsewhere. If you have a manual, you have to be a bit more patient and be willing to advertise where performance buyers are looking. (For BMWs that means everything from Roundel (BMWCCA), Bimmer, your local BMW car club, etc. The smart buyer is looking for a manual with Sport Pkg.)
It also has Bangle styling, iDrive, and terrible "active steering". I think those are largely what is causing 5 sales problems, not additional other luxury features or space.
So only the slippery slush box is allowed to be limited slipped? What's up w/ that? Is it illegal to hot rod in the 21th Century? I heard someone got nailed by his own IS300's computer that recorded the slush box was shifted into gear at high rpm from standing still, so the $6000 replacement cost for the broken slush box wasn't covered under warranty. He might as well replaced that tranny w/ a less expensive manual! LOL
I'd rather enjoy LSD & manual w/o the manual's factory lowered sport suspension.
Those were supposed to be moves in the luxury/convenience direction. For example, the look was supposed to be cutting edge elegant. But 5 Series buyers want performance first. They noticed the little big things: BMW eliminated one gauge from the cluster, the dash no longer was oriented toward the driver, etc.
I love my '04 manual's suspension. Just wish it had better tires that were also a bit wider. Not sure there is that much difference between it and the automatic's suspension. Didn't seem too different from my wife's former '03 IS300 automatic sedan which had LSD and SC. [I also really love my wife's '04 SportCross, which has the summer, wider rear tires.]
Come on, how many 5-series buyers are even true performance buyers?? From looking around at all the driver's behind the wheel of the last 5-series and current 5-series not many. I see alot of woman and old woman driving the cars. You can't tell me the majority of any BMW driver is all about performance. You know why the majority of people buy a BMW-image.
Bold Styling: is that not what Lexus is attempting to do with the new IS and GS. Bangle does not monopolise bad styling---in fact any bold or new styling is vulnerable to criticism(including a Japanese interpretation of luxury)
No big boost in Performance/Handling: Based on the latest specs on the future IS, it appears performance/handling may just be as competitive with future models as the current one is today. That is not a good sign, especially since the current model is not exactly a success.
Pricing: BMW in Canada raised the price of the new 530 by 7 percent. (I dont know what the increase is in the US). In Canada, I can tell you this kind of price increase is a real turn-off. BMW is not a luxury good with unlimited demand. BMW is still a car that has to still compete in price with other luxury automakers. I dont know what the pricing will be for the new IS, but expect problems if the new IS 2.5 does not sell at a significant discounted price versus the current IS300. Or bigger problems would happen if the 3.5 sells at a significant premium price over the current IS300.
If the new 5 series had great performance/handling,non-revolutionary but pleasant styling and was priced more competitively it would have been a success, despite idrive or active steering(an option) .
All that computer crap that hinders the drivivng experience of new BMWs is what BMW is trying to use to maintain a technology gap with the competition. It can be argued that such an emphasis on technology is in fact reducing the thrill of BMWs' performance/handling and making the competition even look better.
If BMW focused less on computer and more on performance/handling and competitive pricing the 5 series would still be a success.
Read #44 & #45:
creakid1 "Ford Focus 2005 release date" Oct 6, 2004 5:56pm
& read under my bio about the expensive restoring "VW series I" project that also got a comfy stable ride!
/WebX?viewUserProfile@@.ef26853/316!vuserName=creakid1
Makes me wonder if there will even be an MT in '06?
If anyone can seriously compare the ES to the IS, then I just don't get it. The ES comes across quickly as a gussied-up Camry. Numb steering. Floaty ride. Limited handling. Absolutely no fun to drive, let alone drive hard!
Heck, I wasn't even impressed with the ES's "luxury". Lots of fake wood. And the wood was all over the steering wheel, where your hands slide all over it. That is dangerous and uncomfortable. About the only feature I noted that the ES has which the IS doesn't was dual climate control. Big deal. Like the air from the 2 halves of the car's interior don't mix?
Too bad it's real.
My 3-week warranted repair stint put me in an RX330. I didn't think there could be a worse fate than ESing it for a day, but RXing it for ten minutes proved me way wrong! There's a vehicle whose appeal I just don't (and won't) get.
Lexusguy is right, though, for someone used to Zippy the Wonder Lexus (IS), it's tough to drive just about anything else with a smile. 325 or 330 would be nice indeed, but a G35 feels almost as big as it is. They should keep a few SportCrosses around for loaners. Bet they'd end up selling a bunch (I get people asking me all the time "what is it?"), and I'd love to be there when some old '98 LS skipper draws one as a loaner. Can't you just see that one?
"What the hell is this?"
]-}
Or maybe not...
Because a car is a lot of money so why buy something you can't stand to look at? I can't remember any IS300 owners right off hand that disliked the car's styling. For them the interior is driver-oriented, to the non-owner that passed on it they simply couldn't stand it.
Are you going to buy a neon orange couch for your living room because it's marginally more comfortable to sit on compared to the classier-looking couch you could have had? For 30k there are so many other cars to choose from you simply have to be crazy to buy a car that you hate the styling of.
What about someone who chose the IS300 over a 3-series because of potential reliability? What about someone who passed on the RX-8 because of potential reliability? What about the person who chose the Camry over the Accord because the Accord's taillights are so ugly? If the person can find a car just as good for 30k that's at least decent to look at then why not?
Per the orange couch, pzev (I love orange, BTW), not quite the same thing. More like objecting to an entire otherwise desireable couch because the feet are visible and round as opposed to hidden and square.
If the whole car doesn't appeal, that's one thing (styling after all is subjective), but just the rear lenses? I stand by my statement that someone who passes based on the lenses alone doesn't give a poop about driving.
FWIW, I've never really cared for clear lenses. They don't offend me; not on the IS or the RX300 or 330 (or even on an '84 Accord with spinners - yecch). No way a couple of pieces of plastic would keep me from a car as hot as an IS.
Besides, if I really objected to them, Millen will set me up with color-matched covers! Cheap.
http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=3395
Regardless I don't find it any different than someone choosing a Camry over an Accord because the Accord's taillights are ugly. I don't find that weird one bit. Which is my point. 99% of people aren't going to find the IS300 the greatest thing since sliced bread and for $30k+ there are many different cars to choose from. Which is why Mazda uses red lenses on the Mazda6 instead of the clear ones. They know they could lose some sales specifically because of that.
The car has more problems than lack of advertising and lack of manual at launch though. The number of Altimas and Lexus RX's sold show it's not just the clear lenses that's causing the problem. The clear lenses is simply the nail in the coffin for a lot of people.
As I said, styling is subjective, and if the whole styling theme doesn't appeal, so be it.
Passing it up based on the lenses alone is just plain silly nitpicking, IMO, regardless of the comparo. Point in fact is the RX. If clear lenses were such a big deal...
I believe we laid out a number of other practical reasons for the numbers; I'm not going back over it all. The next one will certainly appeal to a broader audience, based on Toyota's expressed strategy. Whether or not that includes clear lenses, who knows? They made 'em even clearer on the RX! [-P
I sure hope the autospies shots are PhotoShops. Solara meets Accord meets TSX is not a good thing in my book. Needs more grille, maybe in the fascia, and that should be wire mesh...
I don't think the clear tailights did the IS in. Personally, the later greyed out lenses on the IS looked good.
Thanks, Max. I'm feeling better already!
The smoked lenses aren't bad at all, especially on the graphite or black. One thing I'll say for the current IS: the five-spoke rims are some of the best looking stock running gear I've ever seen on a car shy of a Ferrari. It would really make me happy if they'd made them 8" wide instead of 7" (7.5" in the back on mine), but as far as stock rims go, these are pretty darned tasty.
Well I'm trying to figure out if you classify the taillight design as a whole the same thing as the clear lens. If you're talking about the clear lens alone then you should follow up on these people and ask them if that's all they disliked about the car. They may hate the entire taillight design as a whole, along with other things like the interior, or the car being too small, or whatever. I think the amount of people that found the car the best for 30k and liked everything about it except the clear lenses (not the taillight design) is few and far between. There was more to it that made them walk away, it's just a lot of people will talk about the taillights first.
If someone likes a Camry and Accord fairly evenly and the person chooses the Camry ultimately because of the Accord taillights then I don't find that "nitpicking" at all. If they have no big preference over one or the other why spend lots of money on a car they hate to look at?
Seems like so many here want the IS to be nothing more than a RWD ES or just a cheaper GS. But the ES and GS already exist. Those who want them, should buy them.
The IS is supposed to be a serious all around sport sedan. Not a poseur or a luxury cruiser. That is where the GS and ES come in.
Is too bad Lexus didn't offer a 6-speed manual with numerically lower 1st and 2nd for improved acceleration and a deeper overdrive for better fuel economy.
The problem is Lexus went a bit too far in that direction, and alienated most of the typical Lexus shopping crowd. Keep the ES as a mini-LS430, keep the GS to combat A6 and E500. Keep all of the IS' performance, its going to need it, to compete with 3 series and A4. Give it a level of quality inside like those cars have, and more conservative styling outside. I dont think there are enough boy racer's with $30+K to spend on IS. With styling that appeals to the 3\A4\TL crowd, they might actually sell some cars.
Does that mean the new car will be less "true IS" than the current one? Most likely. Chances are you guys probably arent going to like it. Unfortunately its something that has to be done. Lexus isnt interested in a car that sells in numbers like the old SC coupe. After Fender went mass production in the 60s, their guitars were never as good as the originals again. They sold a hell of a lot more, however.
But you couldn't pay me to buy an ES or RX, and I can't afford a GS. (And the bigger SUVs like the GX and LX are just expensive gross abominations.)
Keep in mind that half of Lexus' sales are SUVs. That is where all the money, profits, and action have been for the past couple years.
Each of the three Germans have their respective customers: BMW drivers are all about the feel of driving, M-B drivers are less concerned with ultimate sport and more about luxury features and gadgets, and Audi fits in between for people who dont want a pretentious badge, and like the interior materials and quattro AWD. Every time Infiniti has tried to compete with Lexus they have failed, and they've since realized that and gone after being the bargain BMW. The old RL was also a Lexus competitior and it failed as well. Acura has abandoned that approach and is about simplicity and bang for the buck. Lexus has their own customers, and just as Infiniti couldnt out Lexus a Lexus, Im not sure it will work the other way. Just as with the original '90 LS, Mercedes is still Lexus' most logical target, so I think the next IS would do well to try and compete with C320. As for the E, Lexus will address 4matic with their own AWD, and the diesel with their hybrid engine. As for wagons and E55 AMGS, in this country that probably accounts for less than 5% of E sales.
Lexus has the ES and IS. They join to compete against the 3 Series, A4, and C-class. Audi, BMW, and MB have only one platform, not two.
So you have to compare totals of ES & IS combined versus their European competitors.
The IS brings in a much younger demographic. The ES brings in the more traditional Lexus buyer.
If you look at the cars in the segment that DO sell, they all have more sophistication, more conservative styling, and in the case of the Japanese cars, are much bigger, and have a lot more power, all things IS needs if they want it to be able to compete with Acura and Infiniti, let alone Germany. If they want to compete with blown Civics and Cavaliers, by all means, leave it alone.
The IS is designed for those whose first and foremost consideration is the actual drive. That is the type buyer who buys the much more expensive M3, 330i with Perf Pkg, and 330i manual Sport Pkg. These type buyers are entirely different than the 50-60% 325i sedan automatic with Premium Pkg buyers!
IF that was the case(and also what Toyota was going for) it would have made more sense to send the Alteeza over to Toyota showrooms and sell it in the mid to high 20K range.
Audi doesn't have a 2nd platform. The A4 has to do it all, using both FWD and AWD drivetrains, S4, wagons, etc.
Infiniti used to have the RWD G35 and FWD I35. With the demise of the I35, Infiniti had to broaden the G-range to include AWD and the coupe.
Acura has used a mass of publicity and new platforms (TL and TSX) to generate sales. Acura goes against the RWD trend by sticking with FWD
Heck, even Jaguar is adding a wagon to the X-type.
Lexus has been asleep at the IS marketing switch for years, pretty much since about 6 months after the IS introduction.
Of course, I readily admit the IS should've had at least 30 hp more plus a 6-speed manual to better compete. But I can't remember a single IS300 ad in any major media or in any major publication for the past two years.
riez: I agree with you about the fact that the IS could use a 6th gear and an extra 20-30 horsepower. But when it came out (late '00 as an '01 model), it had better numbers on paper than the competition (but paper mean didly salt). The IS300 came out with 215hp & 218lb/ft torque with its RWD platform, cheaper price, and Lexus reliability as opposed to the '00 E46 328i with "only" 189hp/206lb-ft, the MB C280 with its 194hp/195lb-ft as its main competitors. But in late '00 as '01 models the 330i was introduced as well as an all new C320.
A lot of people do buy cars for their badge appeal. Especially ES330, C240, and 325i models. As car guys, we need those buyers. The profits generated by these cars (and Lexus SUVs) give the mfrs room to play and come out with such wonderful cars as the M3, C55 AMG, and even the IS which even after dismal sales, Lexus seems committed to making it work which says a lot about Lexus. The roles may be reversed this time around with MB's reliability questioned, BMWs recent controversial styling which may or may not take effect for the E90 3 series, and increased competition form Infiniti, ACura, Audi, Jaguar, and anybody else who comes to the market with an "entry level sports sedan." Lexus may wait for the new BMW to come out and maybe revise the gearing or whatever it takes. They might come out on top this time.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
The Infiniti I35 was killed because the last generation Maxima made a poor competitor to the ES330, and Infiniti knows they can't fight Lexus on Lexus terms. I expect Infiniti's only other Lexus competitor, Q45, to go the way of I35. Infiniti did not have to add the G35x and coupe because of the void left by I35. There was no void, the car wasnt selling, so they dropped it. Skyline AWDs and coupes already existed in Japan, Nissan just brought them over to fight 330Ci and 330xi.
Acura's TL success is not because of advertising, I see a lot more TSX ads than TL. That car is wildly successful because its a plain great car. You can do all the advertising you want, if people dont like your car, they wont buy.
Jaguar's X-type sales are as bad as IS300, and they are adding the wagon (something they said would not happen in the US) in a desperate attempt to get more buyers. You dont see X-type ads anymore, and neither do you see M45 ads. If the car is not sellable in its current form, why pour money into advertising just for at best a few thousand more sales?
Lexus is at a crucial point in the company's history right now. As they try to further differentiate themselves from Toyota and become an international brand, "experiments" like the IS300 arent going to work anymore. Every single Lexus model that sells well (with the exception of LS430) is based on an already successful Toyota product. Lexus needs to learn how to make its own cars good enough for world competition. Perhaps a single car like the Audi A4 that is both luxurious and sporty is something Lexus should do, rather than a floating cloud and a car thats too sports car for its own badge.