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Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

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Comments

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I think most of the problem for GS is, well, its ancient. 2005 is the car's 7th year with no major changes. Yes it was "freshened" for '01, but the freshening was so mild that only ardent GS fans would be able to tell the difference between the old car and the newer one. Compare that to the A4, which was new for '02, and look at the '05 version. Its just a freshening, but it looks almost like a completely new car, with a brand new interior.

    The GS' 7 year old platform and equipment list have to contend with new 545i and E500s, so its no surprise that sales stink. Very few cars have great sales at the end of their cycle, and 7 years is way too long anyway. The GS should've been replaced years ago, but Lexus was too busy pumping out SUVs to bother.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Check out the BMW 5 Series board here. Recent post shows the poor sales of the latest generation 5 Series. It has larger rear seat, bigger trunk, and more "luxury". The things people here are clamoring for. But it isn't outselling what it replaced!

    Without mfg and dealer support, an IS changed in this same direction won't be a big sales success, unless it steals sales from ES and GS.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Here is something from the latest AutoWeek, 10/11/04, about the '05 IS300 sedan:

    "Limited-slip differential gets cut from manual transmission."

    Thank God I bought an '04 IS300 5-speed manual with LSD!!!

    Makes me wonder if '06 will have a manual? And if it does, will it have LSD?
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    maxhonda99...

    1. You wrote, "Magazines may say tight back seat space, but does that mean it's as tight as a 3-series or IS300? No, it means it's tight relative to some other cars in it's class." My wife's '00 323ia had more rear seat space--legroom and kneeroom, than my '98 540i6. The 540i6 was wider, but the driveshaft hump made it only a 4 seater. And, yes, it was very tight relative to others in its class.

    2. Last year I had no trouble getting a moderately decent price for my '98 540i6 with 80,000 miles. But I was also realistic. I know my car is only worth what someone will actually pay for it today. Not what books say or others might claim to get elsewhere. If you have a manual, you have to be a bit more patient and be willing to advertise where performance buyers are looking. (For BMWs that means everything from Roundel (BMWCCA), Bimmer, your local BMW car club, etc. The smart buyer is looking for a manual with Sport Pkg.)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "Recent post shows the poor sales of the latest generation 5 Series. It has larger rear seat, bigger trunk, and more "luxury". The things people here are clamoring for. But it isn't outselling what it replaced!"

    It also has Bangle styling, iDrive, and terrible "active steering". I think those are largely what is causing 5 sales problems, not additional other luxury features or space.
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    "Limited-slip differential gets cut from manual transmission."

    So only the slippery slush box is allowed to be limited slipped? What's up w/ that? Is it illegal to hot rod in the 21th Century? I heard someone got nailed by his own IS300's computer that recorded the slush box was shifted into gear at high rpm from standing still, so the $6000 replacement cost for the broken slush box wasn't covered under warranty. He might as well replaced that tranny w/ a less expensive manual! LOL

    I'd rather enjoy LSD & manual w/o the manual's factory lowered sport suspension.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    lexusguy... "Bangle styling, iDrive, and "active steering"

    Those were supposed to be moves in the luxury/convenience direction. For example, the look was supposed to be cutting edge elegant. But 5 Series buyers want performance first. They noticed the little big things: BMW eliminated one gauge from the cluster, the dash no longer was oriented toward the driver, etc.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    creakid... "I'd rather enjoy LSD & manual w/o the manual's factory lowered sport suspension."

    I love my '04 manual's suspension. Just wish it had better tires that were also a bit wider. Not sure there is that much difference between it and the automatic's suspension. Didn't seem too different from my wife's former '03 IS300 automatic sedan which had LSD and SC. [I also really love my wife's '04 SportCross, which has the summer, wider rear tires.]
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    The reason, so far, that it seems the 5-series isn't doing as well as the last one are several. First, the styling. Generally for luxury cars more conservative styling is the norm, the new 5-series styling has turned people off, as well as the ridiculous Idrive and general styling of the interior. There is no way a roomier interior is going to turn people off. Also, the articles on it haven't been as glowing as they have in years past.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    The GS kinda started to take a nosedive after year 2 on the market. It's momentum didn't last very long. Mercedes could keep the E-class on a 7 or 8 year life cycle and it would still be selling over 4K units a month in year 8.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "But 5 Series buyers want performance first. They noticed the little big things: BMW eliminated one gauge from the cluster, the dash no longer was oriented toward the driver, etc."

    Come on, how many 5-series buyers are even true performance buyers?? From looking around at all the driver's behind the wheel of the last 5-series and current 5-series not many. I see alot of woman and old woman driving the cars. You can't tell me the majority of any BMW driver is all about performance. You know why the majority of people buy a BMW-image.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The soft sales of the latest 5 series should be an important case study for Lexus on what not to do with the IS(although I am well aware that the target for the IS is the 3series). There appears to be three major reasons:

    Bold Styling: is that not what Lexus is attempting to do with the new IS and GS. Bangle does not monopolise bad styling---in fact any bold or new styling is vulnerable to criticism(including a Japanese interpretation of luxury)

    No big boost in Performance/Handling: Based on the latest specs on the future IS, it appears performance/handling may just be as competitive with future models as the current one is today. That is not a good sign, especially since the current model is not exactly a success.

    Pricing: BMW in Canada raised the price of the new 530 by 7 percent. (I dont know what the increase is in the US). In Canada, I can tell you this kind of price increase is a real turn-off. BMW is not a luxury good with unlimited demand. BMW is still a car that has to still compete in price with other luxury automakers. I dont know what the pricing will be for the new IS, but expect problems if the new IS 2.5 does not sell at a significant discounted price versus the current IS300. Or bigger problems would happen if the 3.5 sells at a significant premium price over the current IS300.

    If the new 5 series had great performance/handling,non-revolutionary but pleasant styling and was priced more competitively it would have been a success, despite idrive or active steering(an option) .
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    What is killing the 5 in the magazines though is all that crap BMW has thrown in. Not the bigger size, or the dash. Nobody likes the computer controls, computer steering, computer brakes, and computer throttle. Car and Driver called the 645i the "ultimate driving simultator".
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    How does a company like BMW differentiate itself when average priced competitors are closing the performance/handling gap.

    All that computer crap that hinders the drivivng experience of new BMWs is what BMW is trying to use to maintain a technology gap with the competition. It can be argued that such an emphasis on technology is in fact reducing the thrill of BMWs' performance/handling and making the competition even look better.

    If BMW focused less on computer and more on performance/handling and competitive pricing the 5 series would still be a success.
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    & figure out what "raw handling" is all about.

    Read #44 & #45:
    creakid1 "Ford Focus 2005 release date" Oct 6, 2004 5:56pm

    & read under my bio about the expensive restoring "VW series I" project that also got a comfy stable ride!
     /WebX?viewUserProfile@@.ef26853/316!vuserName=creakid1
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Fact Lexus has pulled LSD from manual transmission ISs in '05 has me scared. Bad enough I6 becomes V6. And that next generation likely will be larger and heavier.

    Makes me wonder if there will even be an MT in '06?
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    When I had my 15K service done last week I got to use and ES330 loaner. Put about 90 miles on it in 2 days. City, highway (55 mph posted speed limit), interstate (65 mph posted speed limit), and on some hilly & curvy roads.

    If anyone can seriously compare the ES to the IS, then I just don't get it. The ES comes across quickly as a gussied-up Camry. Numb steering. Floaty ride. Limited handling. Absolutely no fun to drive, let alone drive hard!

    Heck, I wasn't even impressed with the ES's "luxury". Lots of fake wood. And the wood was all over the steering wheel, where your hands slide all over it. That is dangerous and uncomfortable. About the only feature I noted that the ES has which the IS doesn't was dual climate control. Big deal. Like the air from the 2 halves of the car's interior don't mix?
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "Lots of fake wood"

    Too bad it's real.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Lexus doesnt use the fake wood on any of its cars. Only Acura and Infiniti do that. The ES was never designed as a "drivers car". So its no surprise that as an IS owner, you wouldn't enjoy it. Too bad you cant get a 330i or a G35 as a loaner :)
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    I gotta tell ya, my last service put me in an ES330 too. Didn't make me a happy camper either. It's pretty ponderous!

    My 3-week warranted repair stint put me in an RX330. I didn't think there could be a worse fate than ESing it for a day, but RXing it for ten minutes proved me way wrong! There's a vehicle whose appeal I just don't (and won't) get.

    Lexusguy is right, though, for someone used to Zippy the Wonder Lexus (IS), it's tough to drive just about anything else with a smile. 325 or 330 would be nice indeed, but a G35 feels almost as big as it is. They should keep a few SportCrosses around for loaners. Bet they'd end up selling a bunch (I get people asking me all the time "what is it?"), and I'd love to be there when some old '98 LS skipper draws one as a loaner. Can't you just see that one?

    "What the hell is this?"

    ]-}
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yeah the RX measures about a zero on the fun to drive meter. Its an ES with a much taller center of gravity. At the same time, it was marketing brilliance that invented an entirely new segment. I'd take an RX over a Chevy Tahoe or any other traditional body-on-frame SUV any day of the week. Want fun, try an FX45 or Cayenne Turbo S.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Kinda makes you wonder why AMC couldn't get sales out of the Concord.

    Or maybe not...
    ;)
  • pzevpzev Member Posts: 807
    It's almost as ridiculous as the outcry by one or more indivduals locally over the tail lights. What nutcase passes on a car because of tail light lenses? Hint: someone who doesn't really care much how it drives!

    Because a car is a lot of money so why buy something you can't stand to look at? I can't remember any IS300 owners right off hand that disliked the car's styling. For them the interior is driver-oriented, to the non-owner that passed on it they simply couldn't stand it.

    Are you going to buy a neon orange couch for your living room because it's marginally more comfortable to sit on compared to the classier-looking couch you could have had? For 30k there are so many other cars to choose from you simply have to be crazy to buy a car that you hate the styling of.

    What about someone who chose the IS300 over a 3-series because of potential reliability? What about someone who passed on the RX-8 because of potential reliability? What about the person who chose the Camry over the Accord because the Accord's taillights are so ugly? If the person can find a car just as good for 30k that's at least decent to look at then why not?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Looks are a hugely important factor to car sales, maybe the most important. Just look at the Chris Bangle death threats, or the Jag XK8, that survives on a dinosaur era platform because styling keeps sales afloat. I'd probably be an SC430 owner right now, but I cant stand the look of the car.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Precisely my point on the lenses. Those are a minor detail, not the whole styling perspective of the car.

    Per the orange couch, pzev (I love orange, BTW), not quite the same thing. More like objecting to an entire otherwise desireable couch because the feet are visible and round as opposed to hidden and square.

    If the whole car doesn't appeal, that's one thing (styling after all is subjective), but just the rear lenses? I stand by my statement that someone who passes based on the lenses alone doesn't give a poop about driving.

    FWIW, I've never really cared for clear lenses. They don't offend me; not on the IS or the RX300 or 330 (or even on an '84 Accord with spinners - yecch). No way a couple of pieces of plastic would keep me from a car as hot as an IS.

    Besides, if I really objected to them, Millen will set me up with color-matched covers! Cheap.
  • iknowbetteriknowbetter Member Posts: 1
    Not sure if this has been posted already, if so then accept my apologies.

    http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=3395
  • pzevpzev Member Posts: 807
    It may be more than just the lenses specifically. I don't care for the rear styling itself, much less the clear lenses. But I'll just mention the clear lenses and nothing else. I think most people have a problem with more than just the lenses specifically, it's just the easiest thing to criticize as far as styling is concerned.

    Regardless I don't find it any different than someone choosing a Camry over an Accord because the Accord's taillights are ugly. I don't find that weird one bit. Which is my point. 99% of people aren't going to find the IS300 the greatest thing since sliced bread and for $30k+ there are many different cars to choose from. Which is why Mazda uses red lenses on the Mazda6 instead of the clear ones. They know they could lose some sales specifically because of that.

    The car has more problems than lack of advertising and lack of manual at launch though. The number of Altimas and Lexus RX's sold show it's not just the clear lenses that's causing the problem. The clear lenses is simply the nail in the coffin for a lot of people.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Completely different.

    As I said, styling is subjective, and if the whole styling theme doesn't appeal, so be it.

    Passing it up based on the lenses alone is just plain silly nitpicking, IMO, regardless of the comparo. Point in fact is the RX. If clear lenses were such a big deal...

    I believe we laid out a number of other practical reasons for the numbers; I'm not going back over it all. The next one will certainly appeal to a broader audience, based on Toyota's expressed strategy. Whether or not that includes clear lenses, who knows? They made 'em even clearer on the RX! [-P

    I sure hope the autospies shots are PhotoShops. Solara meets Accord meets TSX is not a good thing in my book. Needs more grille, maybe in the fascia, and that should be wire mesh...
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Since when is autospies.com correct on anything? I seriously think the IS will look nothing like that when it comes out, especially the rear end.

    I don't think the clear tailights did the IS in. Personally, the later greyed out lenses on the IS looked good.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    "Since when is autospies.com correct on anything?"

    Thanks, Max. I'm feeling better already! :)

    The smoked lenses aren't bad at all, especially on the graphite or black. One thing I'll say for the current IS: the five-spoke rims are some of the best looking stock running gear I've ever seen on a car shy of a Ferrari. It would really make me happy if they'd made them 8" wide instead of 7" (7.5" in the back on mine), but as far as stock rims go, these are pretty darned tasty.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Yes, the 5-spoke rim designs on both the IS300(17") and GS400(17") are some of the nicest and most aggressive stock wheels on the market. And the design still looks great almost 8 years later.
  • pzevpzev Member Posts: 807
    Passing it up based on the lenses alone is just plain silly nitpicking, IMO, regardless of the comparo. Point in fact is the RX. If clear lenses were such a big deal...

    Well I'm trying to figure out if you classify the taillight design as a whole the same thing as the clear lens. If you're talking about the clear lens alone then you should follow up on these people and ask them if that's all they disliked about the car. They may hate the entire taillight design as a whole, along with other things like the interior, or the car being too small, or whatever. I think the amount of people that found the car the best for 30k and liked everything about it except the clear lenses (not the taillight design) is few and far between. There was more to it that made them walk away, it's just a lot of people will talk about the taillights first.

    If someone likes a Camry and Accord fairly evenly and the person chooses the Camry ultimately because of the Accord taillights then I don't find that "nitpicking" at all. If they have no big preference over one or the other why spend lots of money on a car they hate to look at?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Those "spy photos" are nothing more than CG drawings. Nothing to worry about. The 17" rims really dont do much for me, not bad, but not something to write home about. I think the split-spoke wheels on the Volvo C70 were much more attractive. My favorite set of OEM wheels though goes to the M3.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    wale_bate1... You are absolutely correct about the tail lenses. Either you get it and like it or not. The IS is what it is. That includes the metal pedals and chrono instrument cluster and lack of standard wood trim (there are optional walnut inserts--which I bet are very, very rare). All is there for a reason. It was supposed to be a boy-racer, one that appeals to an entirely different demographic than the ES or GS.

    Seems like so many here want the IS to be nothing more than a RWD ES or just a cheaper GS. But the ES and GS already exist. Those who want them, should buy them.

    The IS is supposed to be a serious all around sport sedan. Not a poseur or a luxury cruiser. That is where the GS and ES come in.

    Is too bad Lexus didn't offer a 6-speed manual with numerically lower 1st and 2nd for improved acceleration and a deeper overdrive for better fuel economy.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "All is there for a reason. It was supposed to be a boy-racer, one that appeals to an entirely different demographic than the ES or GS."

    The problem is Lexus went a bit too far in that direction, and alienated most of the typical Lexus shopping crowd. Keep the ES as a mini-LS430, keep the GS to combat A6 and E500. Keep all of the IS' performance, its going to need it, to compete with 3 series and A4. Give it a level of quality inside like those cars have, and more conservative styling outside. I dont think there are enough boy racer's with $30+K to spend on IS. With styling that appeals to the 3\A4\TL crowd, they might actually sell some cars.

    Does that mean the new car will be less "true IS" than the current one? Most likely. Chances are you guys probably arent going to like it. Unfortunately its something that has to be done. Lexus isnt interested in a car that sells in numbers like the old SC coupe. After Fender went mass production in the 60s, their guitars were never as good as the originals again. They sold a hell of a lot more, however.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    The IS has been a huge hit in one area. It has the lowest average age for buyers of any Toyota or Lexus product in USA. Average age of buyers is even lower than Scion! That means a good number of people (like myself) who would never have considered setting foot in a Lexus dealer went in. We looked around. Many of us actually bought cars. I did it 3 times and bought 3 ISs.

    But you couldn't pay me to buy an ES or RX, and I can't afford a GS. (And the bigger SUVs like the GX and LX are just expensive gross abominations.)

    Keep in mind that half of Lexus' sales are SUVs. That is where all the money, profits, and action have been for the past couple years.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Right, and the RX, GX, and LX (which will probably go away soon and be replaced with a Lexus Seqouia) are all established in their respective price and size catergories. Lexus cant just sit back and go, "well, the SUVs are doing great, so lets take a breather and not do anything for awhile." ES and LS sales are fine. Its those little brats, GS and IS, that arent doing what they are supposed to, and thats what Lexus has to address. Lexus' arch rival is essentially Mercedes-Benz, and GS and IS are getting crushed by C and E class sales. Lexus cant just sit by and let that happen.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Every Lexus car that wins a sale over German or Japanese competition is because of two principle factors: Lexus cars are generally more luxurious and more reliable than their competition. That means that in order for IS to play in the market like C, A4, and TL do, the must meet or exceed those cars in luxury features. Anything else, and it shouldnt have the L badge on the front.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Thats just the thing, I'm not sure Lexus can be all things to all people. If you look at other "status" marquees, all of them have a certain "design philosophy" that is present in every car they make. Every BMW has that certain bavarian trait that makes it a BMW. All Lexus cars have that.. except for the IS. Just as BMW would never make a car that would compete with ES330, I'm not sure that Lexus can successfully market a car that directly targets G35 and 330i.

    Each of the three Germans have their respective customers: BMW drivers are all about the feel of driving, M-B drivers are less concerned with ultimate sport and more about luxury features and gadgets, and Audi fits in between for people who dont want a pretentious badge, and like the interior materials and quattro AWD. Every time Infiniti has tried to compete with Lexus they have failed, and they've since realized that and gone after being the bargain BMW. The old RL was also a Lexus competitior and it failed as well. Acura has abandoned that approach and is about simplicity and bang for the buck. Lexus has their own customers, and just as Infiniti couldnt out Lexus a Lexus, Im not sure it will work the other way. Just as with the original '90 LS, Mercedes is still Lexus' most logical target, so I think the next IS would do well to try and compete with C320. As for the E, Lexus will address 4matic with their own AWD, and the diesel with their hybrid engine. As for wagons and E55 AMGS, in this country that probably accounts for less than 5% of E sales.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    lexusguy... You seem to endlessly repeat the same mistake.

    Lexus has the ES and IS. They join to compete against the 3 Series, A4, and C-class. Audi, BMW, and MB have only one platform, not two.

    So you have to compare totals of ES & IS combined versus their European competitors.

    The IS brings in a much younger demographic. The ES brings in the more traditional Lexus buyer.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I understand their 2 car strategy. The only thing is, ES does not compete with any of the above mentioned cars. No one considering a BMW, Audi, or Mercedes would drive an ES. The ES is lucky in that it has very few competitors, maybe the Volvo S80, but thats it, especially now that the I35 has been killed. So that leaves the IS, which doesnt stack up well enough to A4\3\TL\G35 to sell in much of any numbers. If it was a $20K Scion, fantastic. But at above $30K, the type of people that the current IS appeals to most dont have the cash.

    If you look at the cars in the segment that DO sell, they all have more sophistication, more conservative styling, and in the case of the Japanese cars, are much bigger, and have a lot more power, all things IS needs if they want it to be able to compete with Acura and Infiniti, let alone Germany. If they want to compete with blown Civics and Cavaliers, by all means, leave it alone.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    lexusguy... You'd be surprised how terribly far too many people drive BMWs and MBs merely for the marques. They want to be seen in the "right" car. They couldn't care less about the driving. The ES competes for this type buyer, one who is looking for the right marque. So these type buyers certainly will cross-shop disparate cars. They look for the marque first and the car second.

    The IS is designed for those whose first and foremost consideration is the actual drive. That is the type buyer who buys the much more expensive M3, 330i with Perf Pkg, and 330i manual Sport Pkg. These type buyers are entirely different than the 50-60% 325i sedan automatic with Premium Pkg buyers!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'm not entirely sure I agree with that, but even if your argument is true, that doesnt explain why G35, A4, and TL are crushing IS300 in sales. According to Forbes, 2004 IS sales are down more than 30% over last year, where as G and TL are running strong. Neither of those are "prestige cars", they are just more realistic about what people shopping in the $30+ range want in a car, sporty or not.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "The IS is designed for those whose first and foremost consideration is the actual drive. "

    IF that was the case(and also what Toyota was going for) it would have made more sense to send the Alteeza over to Toyota showrooms and sell it in the mid to high 20K range.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    lexusguy... Once again,

    Audi doesn't have a 2nd platform. The A4 has to do it all, using both FWD and AWD drivetrains, S4, wagons, etc.

    Infiniti used to have the RWD G35 and FWD I35. With the demise of the I35, Infiniti had to broaden the G-range to include AWD and the coupe.

    Acura has used a mass of publicity and new platforms (TL and TSX) to generate sales. Acura goes against the RWD trend by sticking with FWD

    Heck, even Jaguar is adding a wagon to the X-type.

    Lexus has been asleep at the IS marketing switch for years, pretty much since about 6 months after the IS introduction.

    Of course, I readily admit the IS should've had at least 30 hp more plus a 6-speed manual to better compete. But I can't remember a single IS300 ad in any major media or in any major publication for the past two years.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 17,041
    There was definitely a lot of marketing and advertising support when the IS300 debuted. I believe they even changed the slogans on the ads rather quickly as sales dropped off after the initial "wow, that's the same car from the video game and I've got to have it" wore off.

    riez: I agree with you about the fact that the IS could use a 6th gear and an extra 20-30 horsepower. But when it came out (late '00 as an '01 model), it had better numbers on paper than the competition (but paper mean didly salt). The IS300 came out with 215hp & 218lb/ft torque with its RWD platform, cheaper price, and Lexus reliability as opposed to the '00 E46 328i with "only" 189hp/206lb-ft, the MB C280 with its 194hp/195lb-ft as its main competitors. But in late '00 as '01 models the 330i was introduced as well as an all new C320.

    A lot of people do buy cars for their badge appeal. Especially ES330, C240, and 325i models. As car guys, we need those buyers. The profits generated by these cars (and Lexus SUVs) give the mfrs room to play and come out with such wonderful cars as the M3, C55 AMG, and even the IS which even after dismal sales, Lexus seems committed to making it work which says a lot about Lexus. The roles may be reversed this time around with MB's reliability questioned, BMWs recent controversial styling which may or may not take effect for the E90 3 series, and increased competition form Infiniti, ACura, Audi, Jaguar, and anybody else who comes to the market with an "entry level sports sedan." Lexus may wait for the new BMW to come out and maybe revise the gearing or whatever it takes. They might come out on top this time.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    My point remains the same, if the new IS comes out with the same $32K+ price tag, boy racer styling, and boy racer interior and intends to fight A4, TL, and G35, its going to fail again, ad blitz or not. All indications seem to be that this is not the case and that IS is going to "grow up". Like I said, it doesnt matter if A4, TL, G35, etc are all single platform cars. The ES330 DOES NOT compete with these cars, meaning that Lexus SOLE competitor here is IS300.

    The Infiniti I35 was killed because the last generation Maxima made a poor competitor to the ES330, and Infiniti knows they can't fight Lexus on Lexus terms. I expect Infiniti's only other Lexus competitor, Q45, to go the way of I35. Infiniti did not have to add the G35x and coupe because of the void left by I35. There was no void, the car wasnt selling, so they dropped it. Skyline AWDs and coupes already existed in Japan, Nissan just brought them over to fight 330Ci and 330xi.

    Acura's TL success is not because of advertising, I see a lot more TSX ads than TL. That car is wildly successful because its a plain great car. You can do all the advertising you want, if people dont like your car, they wont buy.

    Jaguar's X-type sales are as bad as IS300, and they are adding the wagon (something they said would not happen in the US) in a desperate attempt to get more buyers. You dont see X-type ads anymore, and neither do you see M45 ads. If the car is not sellable in its current form, why pour money into advertising just for at best a few thousand more sales?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    You are also forgetting that there is no Toyota Camry in Europe, and there for there is no Lexus ES330 there. In Europe which is Lexus' weakest market, the IS is their lone entry in the entry-lux class.

    Lexus is at a crucial point in the company's history right now. As they try to further differentiate themselves from Toyota and become an international brand, "experiments" like the IS300 arent going to work anymore. Every single Lexus model that sells well (with the exception of LS430) is based on an already successful Toyota product. Lexus needs to learn how to make its own cars good enough for world competition. Perhaps a single car like the Audi A4 that is both luxurious and sporty is something Lexus should do, rather than a floating cloud and a car thats too sports car for its own badge.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    The initial "buzz" of the IS was drowned out in the automotive press by the lack of a manual transmission. And the IS300's performance wasn't quite up to 330i standards (even in automatic mode). Lexus didn't stress the 325i as being the natural competitor. And like I've said, people looking for serious all around sport sedan in MY2001 were looking for RWD and manual transmission. Buyers had M3, 330i Sport Pkg, 325i Sport Pkg, and Lincoln LS6 (which used the same Getrag 5-speed manual as BMW). [Don't forget that the Lincoln had been named Motor Trend's Car of the Year and had gotten very good initial press coverage by MT, C&D, R&T, Automobile, etc. It offered V6 and V8, not to mention the V6 5-speed.] But the IS was just a poseur as it only had an automatic!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I agree that the lack of enough power and a MT in a car built for MT drivers were both critical errors on Lexus USA's part. Most of the reason G35 and TL do as well as they do is because you can get them for 325i prices with 330i performance and MTs. The IS300 also has a 325i price, but it has 325i performance as well. If Lexus cant present a better case for value than BMW, why buy one?
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