The lack of a manual IS model during its introduction may have been an influence for its lack of populatrity, but I do not believe this is the whole story.
The G35 Intro began with no manual and it was a great success from day one. Most N. American buyers of BMW 3 series drive automatics not manuals( in fact most BMW drivers are not enthusiasts but status seekers).
If the performance/handling specs of the IS were superior and sold at a lower price than the BMW 330, the IS would have been quite a success--whether it had manual or not!
I myself would never consider buying a car unless it is manual(but my choice is not a popular choice even among BMW buyers)
According to Automotive News website, every Lexus sedan is going to redone by Fall 2006. The short bit I read goes on to say they are going after BMW loyalists.
for the repetition about the G35 Intro, I did not realize I wrote basically the same thing as you did before.
It appears that performance enthusiasts in the future will not be as fixated on shifting their gears manually as they do now.The BMW's SMG (Sequential Manual Gearbox) transmission appears to be what the future will look like for driving enthusiasts. For the readers who do not know, the SMG is a manual tranny with a clutch whose gears can shift themselves automatically. The M5 SMG can automatically shift its seven gears far more effectively than most humans beings can , which enhances its performance.
As nutty as this sounds but I think I would prefer a standard manual vs. SMG even if that would mean a sacrifice in performance. I like being an active driver with the foot on the clutch while I change gears. Passive High performance does not excite me!
Maybe a Toyota version of SMG would make the IS a success in terms of sales volume(although such an IS would not excite me personally)
"According to Automotive News website, every Lexus sedan is going to redone by Fall 2006. The short bit I read goes on to say they are going after BMW loyalists"
There is hope for the IS. Toyota has the ability to re-invent the IS so that it can compete with the BMW 3 series. Remember how the Audi 80/90 transoformed into an A4 that was quite competitive to the BMW 3 series during the 90s. And the major transformation of the G20 into a G35 that really boosted Infiniti's attempt to trespass on BMW territory.
As it is, the IS300 is already pretty competitive with the 3-series from a performance standpoint.
The biggest thing that I see has hurt the IS300 is the un-Lexuslike interior, and the lack of features as compared to the 3-series. They have really let the competition do a fly-by. No curtain airbags for the rear passengers, no VSC available on manual equipped cars, lack of a real center armrest.
Also, some other little things hurt it also, even though it says it produces 215bhp, it sure is alot slower than a similarly sized, weighted, and powered BMW 3-series. On top of that the gas mileage sucks compared to the competition.
"As it is, the IS300 is already pretty competitive with the 3-series from a performance standpoint"
What I meant was in terms of the sales volume standpoint.
Talking about performance/handling, the IS300 does hold its ground against the BMW 325 but certainly not the 330.(although the 330's competitiveness is somewhat diminished by its premium price versus the IS)
The IS300 is the last car to use Toyota's IL6, which can be turned into a fire breathing monster with a TT upgrade. Whats a 330i cost now, over $40K? Take a $32K IS, and add $10K worth of turbos, and it will smoke the BMW. I agree there should've been a "super" version of this car from day one. They could've just directly taken TT's out of the Supra and stuck them on if they wanted to. 215hp just doesnt get people interested like a 333hp M3, or V8 powered S4. Hell, even Volvo offers a hot version of the S60.
In Canada the price differential of MSRPs between an IS and a 3 series are narrower. An IS costs CDN$ 38k vs. CDN$45k for BMW330. Converted to US$ this differnce is only about 5k US$.
maxhonda99 - I read the Automotive News article you mentioned and it doesn't say much. The new sedan schedule:
Spring 2005 - New GS Fall 2005 - New IS Spring 2006 - New ES Fall 2006 - New LS
The new cars will have sportier driving experiences and bolder styling.
Through the first eight months of this year, Lexus car sales are up 10.6% (to 91,417). The LS is up 51.9% and the ES is up 19.5%. Lexus expects a big boost in sales with the redesigns of the GS and IS.
BMW car sales, meanwhile, are down 7.5% (to 126,885) and Mercedes are up 1% (to 122,379).
lexi4life... Check out the Toyota Racing Development (TRD) catalog. It is sad how few parts they make for the IS. Go figure. Yet another reason the IS doesn't stand out in the market!
According to the 2003 TRD catalog, you could get TRD superchargers for all of the following:
a. Cars: Corolla, Matrix, Camry, Solara. b. Minivans: Sienna c. SUVs: 4Runner, Sequoia, Land Cruiser d. Trucks: Tundra
Not for every model year. The Sienna shows availability just for MY1998-2000 V6 (1MZFE) AT. But is sad nothing for IS.
maxhonda99 - Yes, I have a subscription to Automotive News. And yes, the stats given were just for cars and did not include SUVs (that was the focus of the article).
Agreed, there should've been a hot version of the IS from day one. Every single one of the IS's European competition offers a hot rod version, (well except the X-type R never materialized, and look how well that car is doing). Now that even Cadillac and Volvo offer performance versions, not having one is just asking to be thrown out with yesterdays news.
I'm not sure if I can post a link to another car site, but here it goes. The new IS was recently shown to high-up Lexus execs for the first time, and now this photo is circulating. We'll have to wait and see if this is the real thing:
Not bad looking, though I'm sure it will change more than a bit from that concept drawing. Keep the sport of the current car, and the luxury that should be there if the L is on the front of the car, and they could finally have a hit in this segment.
A Lexus dealer sales guy on another website posted that the VP of his dealership recently returned from the Lexus annual meeting for high-up Lexus personnel.
He mentions what I reported here last month after talking with a Lexus official at the Taste of Luxury driving event: The next IS will offer both a 2.5 V6 and a 3.5 V6 (with the 3.5 making over 300 hp).
"The next IS will offer both a 2.5 V6 and a 3.5 V6 (with the 3.5 making over 300 hp)."
So first we're going to have a V6 that will be lower in power than the ES330, Camry, Solara, etc., but on top of that it'll be close to a 100hp difference between the two engines with the 3.5 being on top of the V8 in power? This really makes no sense.
I'm sure some people don't buy the IS300 nowadays because of the engine specs. Why would Lexus want to do this all over again? Even the Accord, Sonata, and Altima will have significantly more power, and the IS is probably getting bigger and heavier over the current one.
The Accord and Altima had more power than the current Bmw 330 and Audi A4 for many years. Despite the German power shortage quite a large number of those BMWs and Audis are sold. There is more to performance/handling than just the hp and 0-60 stats. I guess we will have to wait and drive the actual car itself to make a conclusion whether it will be a success or not.
If that is a true picture of a future IS than this whole excitement about future Lexus design is a bit overblown.
If Lexus really wants to radically change their designs they should raid BMW and hire Bangle and his designers. In fact may be not, BMW would be the key benefactor of such an action.
The 3-series is the entry level BMW, there isn't another BMW 6-cyl at same or lower price with more power. Audi has more power than VW.
Using the 2.5 V6 is actually a step DOWN in power compared to the current IS300. With all these cars (including BMW) moving up in power why on earth would they choose to go in the opposite direction?
Within another year or so, the base versions of the A4, C and 3 series should be making at least 200hp. The TSX makes 200hp (and Acura will probably thrown in a few more ponies when it is freshened.) Then there's the G35 and TL of course, which come with heaps of horsepower in the low 30s. Since the IS is really in the same league as all of those cars, having a small displacement, low powered six is probably not a great idea. It might make sense in the rest of the world, but not really here in the US, especially when IS will probably be in the TL and G35s price range.
While more displacement often means more power, better engine design can increase power for a given displacement.
Just look at all the improvements BMW is making to its 2.5L and 3.0L I6s for the upcoming next generation 325i and 330i. Believe HP for the 2.5L goes well over 200 HP, and nearly 260 HP for the 3.0L. Of course, they'll give up some torque down low to the larger engines (e.g., 3.5L Nissan).
Believe BMW's upcoming M5 V10 uses an engine about same size as preceding V8, but it cracks the "magic" 100HP/l standard. So same 5.0L of displacement now has 500 HP, up about 100 HP.
What's wrong with Lexus offering a 2.5L 6 in the IS for the US? BMW has a 2.5L 6 starting at about $27K.
Personally, I think it would be a great strategy for Lexus to have a 2.5L V6 and price it around $27 to $28K starting and then have the bigger 3.0 to 3.5L V6 as the next step up with a base price of about $32K. It makes complete sense, since they would have a broader range of vehicles that can reach a broader range of potential buyers with the cheaper MSRP. Works great for BMW and Audi.
Its possible, but remember that the current IS is not particularly quick, even with 3.0L and 215hp, its straight line performance is much closer to the 325i than 330i. The new IS is going to be bigger, with more lux, which means heavier. That means this 2.5L would need at least 215hp for 0-60 numbers to not go down into the 8 second range, which would have it losing badly to the 325i, and probably losing to the A4 2.0T as well, and even the Scion tC, which would look really bad.
The current IS300 is not particulary quick because of something else other than the engine. The same engine in the much heavier GS300 does 0-60 in about 7.6 to 7.8 seconds, yet in the IS300 it only does 0-60 in 7.4. Somethings obviously wrong. Either the switch to a single exhaust dropped BHP lower than the claimed 215 or somewhere else in the drivetrain power is being robbed. Also look at the gas mileage figures, the IS300 give basically the same MPG numbers as the heavier GS300. Obviously there is some engineering screw-up with the IS.
I see no reason why a 2.5L 6 today should produce less than 200bhp, and I would expect a IS250? to produce in the 200bhp range, which would be great for a base price of about $27-28K.
The GS300 weighs about 3650lbs and gets 18/25MPG and accelerates from 0-60 in the mid to high 7s.
The IS300 with the same engine and transmission but with 10less bhp but also with much less weight(3285lbs) actually gets worse EPA MPG numbers at 18/24 and is only a couple of tenths quicker to 60.
It's ridiculous. Somewhere they screwed up big time.
You have to look at both gearing (final drive ratio and individual gears) and tires.
I believe the IS300 has to shift into 3rd before hitting 60 mph. That is always a time killer. You need to gear it so it can go 60 mph in 2nd gear. This issue afflicts the VW Golf R32. Tons of power and AWD, but poor gearing.
The lack of a deep overdrive kills the IS300's highway fuel economy. It is geared so you don't need to downshift out of 5th in order to pass. Instead of a 0.85 (or thereabouts), she really needs a 0.70-.75 top gear.
Check out the latest issue of Sport Compact Car. They compare the showcar IS430 to a base IS300. In same issue they discuss how Toyota's TC uses the same crummy tires as the IS300.
lexusguy... Their point is they aren't very good tires. The all-season Bridgestone Potenzas used by the IS300 and TC are utterly mediocre tires. That is the problem. There are better tires out there. Some cost more, some cost less. Why does Toyota/Lexus choose to use mediocre tires? Esp. in the IS300???
One example: Believe you can get Michelin Pilot Sports in the Hyundai Tiburon. Too bad you can't get 'em for the IS300!
Toyota/Lexus has historically used pretty cheap tires on their cars. They typically don't use the latest and most expensive tires, they go for the older design tires.
I've seen Lexus' come with GY Invicta GA's, Dunlop D40 A2's, SP Sport 4000s, GY Integrity's, and Michelin MXV4's, and the GS430 with 17's comes with crappy Bridgestone RE030's(which were a old tire even back in 1998 when the GS400 came out).
They need to step up to the plate in the future and put some real rubber on their cars, especially the performance oriented cars like the GS and IS like Michelin Pilot Sports.
model for model with the next 3, and the C-Class BTW, the potential 2.5 would make 225HP MINIMUM, since the next BMW 2.5 engine makes 218. The 3.5 I'd expect to have 245-260, no more. It would already be wrecking the power structure at Lexus, making 15-30 more HP than the higher profit margin GS at 245HP. I don't think Lexus wants to wreck the GS sales before they can get going, do you?
These rumors don't make too much sense anyway, since the top IS V6 engine will almost certainly be the base engine for the GS. Lexus seems committed to the 245HP six for the GS. So the same engine in the IS wouldn't surprise me at all. A more powerful engine would be.
The M3 comes with more power than the 545i, but BMW doesnt seemed to be concerned. Same for S4 and A6 4.2, and C55 AMG and E500. Even if the IS350GT came with more power than the GS430, let alone the GS300, how is this any different from the Germans?
From what I know, there wont be an IS350. What is expected is an IS250 ~200hp IS300 ~245hp, and IS350GT, with 280hp+. The GS should start with the 245hp 3.0L engine, offer the 300hp V8 (for now), and have a GS350GT with rumored more than 400hp. The basic versions of the IS shouldnt step on GS's toes, and the GS350GT will definitely have more power than the IS350GT, as it is getting a hybrid powertrain, and the IS is not.
BMW's high winding V6 might not have as much torque as the 545, but the S4 and C55 use more powerful 8s than the step up midsize car's 8s.
Ignoring the previous article I posted for a minute, here are the numbers I'm getting comparing the US version versus Japanese market version. This is due to emissions equipment, quality of fuel, or any number of reasons. This is just to show what we can expect for the US versions. The previous article used PS so converted to US horsepower here is what you get.
GS300 220/220 Japan 226/220
Celica 180/130 Japan 187/130
Crown 3.0 252/227 Crown 2.5 211/188
US estimate for GS300 3.0 245/228
The US estimate looks to be very accurate of what we can expect. So now look at the 2.5. This is obviously a step down over the current IS300. The big thing is what do they plan to start the 2.5 version price at? If they can start an automatic version at 27k then that works, but will it be that cheap? I'll be happy to take the 2.5 if the price reflects it. If a 2.5 with automatic, sunroof, and leather runs over 30 grand then what kind of pricing are we looking at for the upper 3.0/3.5 version?
Look for the 2.5 to have 211/188 with probably a slight decrease in horsepower. This on possibly a bigger, heavier car than the current IS300 at possibly the same price then it looks like overall performance for the buck is going down.
lexusguy... You wrote, "BMW's high winding V6 might not have as much torque as the 545, but the S4 and C55 use more powerful 8s than the step up midsize car's 8s."
You kill your credibility when you make such a glaring mistake. BMW is known for its wonderful I6s (that is in-line). BMW does not make or use V6s. Marques like MB and Jaguar (foolishly) moved away from their I6s to V6s.
Can't say I really care too much about all the speculation. We'll really know when it is officially announced by Lexus.
I know its an inline. Generally when I think of high winding engines Im thinking of Honda, so the V slipped in there. Except for the engine configuration (which imo is a relatively minor mistake) the rest of the statement IS true.
The all new IS350 will have a 3.5 litre v-6 that will have over 300hp. It will also be available in a 2.5 liter as well. It also will be available in awd.
"The all new IS350 will have a 3.5 litre v-6 that will have over 300hp. It will also be available in a 2.5 liter as well. It also will be available in awd."
The 300hp figure can't be for the trim directly above the 2.5. Why have it put the 8-cyl GS to shame for a lower price then have it 100hp more than the next lowest trim? There's got to be something in between.
I'm getting use to the idea of the 2.5 being the base engine. As long as the car isn't over 3300 pounds and the engine makes most of the torque down low (which it's suppose to) then it should be ok for someone like me. Now if it comes in at 28k or below it ought to be worth looking at.
Comments
The G35 Intro began with no manual and it was a great success from day one. Most N. American buyers of BMW 3 series drive automatics not manuals( in fact most BMW drivers are not enthusiasts but status seekers).
If the performance/handling specs of the IS were superior and sold at a lower price than the BMW 330, the IS would have been quite a success--whether it had manual or not!
I myself would never consider buying a car unless it is manual(but my choice is not a popular choice even among BMW buyers)
for the repetition about the G35 Intro, I did not realize I wrote basically the same thing as you did before.
It appears that performance enthusiasts in the future will not be as fixated on shifting their gears manually as they do now.The BMW's SMG (Sequential Manual Gearbox) transmission appears to be what the future will look like for driving enthusiasts. For the readers who do not know, the SMG is a manual tranny with a clutch whose gears can shift themselves automatically. The M5 SMG can automatically shift its seven gears far more effectively than most humans beings can , which enhances its performance.
As nutty as this sounds but I think I would prefer a standard manual vs. SMG even if that would mean a sacrifice in performance. I like being an active driver with the foot on the clutch while I change gears. Passive High performance does not excite me!
Maybe a Toyota version of SMG would make the IS a success in terms of sales volume(although such an IS would not excite me personally)
There is hope for the IS. Toyota has the ability to re-invent the IS so that it can compete with the BMW 3 series. Remember how the Audi 80/90 transoformed into an A4 that was quite competitive to the BMW 3 series during the 90s.
And the major transformation of the G20 into a G35 that really boosted Infiniti's attempt to trespass on BMW territory.
The biggest thing that I see has hurt the IS300 is the un-Lexuslike interior, and the lack of features as compared to the 3-series. They have really let the competition do a fly-by. No curtain airbags for the rear passengers, no VSC available on manual equipped cars, lack of a real center armrest.
Also, some other little things hurt it also, even though it says it produces 215bhp, it sure is alot slower than a similarly sized, weighted, and powered BMW 3-series. On top of that the gas mileage sucks compared to the competition.
What I meant was in terms of the sales volume standpoint.
Talking about performance/handling, the IS300 does hold its ground against the BMW 325 but certainly not the 330.(although the 330's competitiveness is somewhat diminished by its premium price versus the IS)
vs. CDN$45k for BMW330. Converted to US$ this differnce is only about 5k US$.
For 5K US$ diference, I would choose a Bimmer.
Spring 2005 - New GS
Fall 2005 - New IS
Spring 2006 - New ES
Fall 2006 - New LS
The new cars will have sportier driving experiences and bolder styling.
Through the first eight months of this year, Lexus car sales are up 10.6% (to 91,417). The LS is up 51.9% and the ES is up 19.5%. Lexus expects a big boost in sales with the redesigns of the GS and IS.
BMW car sales, meanwhile, are down 7.5% (to 126,885) and Mercedes are up 1% (to 122,379).
By "car sales" I guess you're just meaning sedans and coupes? Because otherwise, Lexus is ahead of Mercedes and possibly BMW.
According to the 2003 TRD catalog, you could get TRD superchargers for all of the following:
a. Cars: Corolla, Matrix, Camry, Solara.
b. Minivans: Sienna
c. SUVs: 4Runner, Sequoia, Land Cruiser
d. Trucks: Tundra
Not for every model year. The Sienna shows availability just for MY1998-2000 V6 (1MZFE) AT. But is sad nothing for IS.
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?s=8c3e4c081b6cf500- 498bacdb4036044c&threadid=134046
Well, we can always pray it's a PhotoShop Phantasy...
He mentions what I reported here last month after talking with a Lexus official at the Taste of Luxury driving event: The next IS will offer both a 2.5 V6 and a 3.5 V6 (with the 3.5 making over 300 hp).
So first we're going to have a V6 that will be lower in power than the ES330, Camry, Solara, etc., but on top of that it'll be close to a 100hp difference between the two engines with the 3.5 being on top of the V8 in power? This really makes no sense.
I'm sure some people don't buy the IS300 nowadays because of the engine specs. Why would Lexus want to do this all over again? Even the Accord, Sonata, and Altima will have significantly more power, and the IS is probably getting bigger and heavier over the current one.
If Lexus really wants to radically change their designs they should raid BMW and hire Bangle and his designers. In fact may be not, BMW would be the key benefactor of such an action.
Using the 2.5 V6 is actually a step DOWN in power compared to the current IS300. With all these cars (including BMW) moving up in power why on earth would they choose to go in the opposite direction?
Just look at all the improvements BMW is making to its 2.5L and 3.0L I6s for the upcoming next generation 325i and 330i. Believe HP for the 2.5L goes well over 200 HP, and nearly 260 HP for the 3.0L. Of course, they'll give up some torque down low to the larger engines (e.g., 3.5L Nissan).
Believe BMW's upcoming M5 V10 uses an engine about same size as preceding V8, but it cracks the "magic" 100HP/l standard. So same 5.0L of displacement now has 500 HP, up about 100 HP.
Personally, I think it would be a great strategy for Lexus to have a 2.5L V6 and price it around $27 to $28K starting and then have the bigger 3.0 to 3.5L V6 as the next step up with a base price of about $32K. It makes complete sense, since they would have a broader range of vehicles that can reach a broader range of potential buyers with the cheaper MSRP. Works great for BMW and Audi.
I see no reason why a 2.5L 6 today should produce less than 200bhp, and I would expect a IS250? to produce in the 200bhp range, which would be great for a base price of about $27-28K.
The GS300 weighs about 3650lbs and gets 18/25MPG
and accelerates from 0-60 in the mid to high 7s.
The IS300 with the same engine and transmission but with 10less bhp but also with much less weight(3285lbs) actually gets worse EPA MPG numbers at 18/24 and is only a couple of tenths quicker to 60.
It's ridiculous. Somewhere they screwed up big time.
I believe the IS300 has to shift into 3rd before hitting 60 mph. That is always a time killer. You need to gear it so it can go 60 mph in 2nd gear. This issue afflicts the VW Golf R32. Tons of power and AWD, but poor gearing.
The lack of a deep overdrive kills the IS300's highway fuel economy. It is geared so you don't need to downshift out of 5th in order to pass. Instead of a 0.85 (or thereabouts), she really needs a 0.70-.75 top gear.
Check out the latest issue of Sport Compact Car. They compare the showcar IS430 to a base IS300. In same issue they discuss how Toyota's TC uses the same crummy tires as the IS300.
One example: Believe you can get Michelin Pilot Sports in the Hyundai Tiburon. Too bad you can't get 'em for the IS300!
I've seen Lexus' come with GY Invicta GA's, Dunlop D40 A2's, SP Sport 4000s, GY Integrity's, and Michelin MXV4's, and the GS430 with 17's comes with crappy Bridgestone RE030's(which were a old tire even back in 1998 when the GS400 came out).
They need to step up to the plate in the future and put some real rubber on their cars, especially the performance oriented cars like the GS and IS like Michelin Pilot Sports.
These rumors don't make too much sense anyway, since the top IS V6 engine will almost certainly be the base engine for the GS. Lexus seems committed to the 245HP six for the GS. So the same engine in the IS wouldn't surprise me at all. A more powerful engine would be.
I'd just be happy with a stick at launch, LOL!
DrFill
And the 545i has more torque than the M3.
BMW's high winding V6 might not have as much torque as the 545, but the S4 and C55 use more powerful 8s than the step up midsize car's 8s.
GS300 220/220
Japan 226/220
Celica 180/130
Japan 187/130
Crown 3.0 252/227
Crown 2.5 211/188
US estimate for GS300 3.0 245/228
The US estimate looks to be very accurate of what we can expect. So now look at the 2.5. This is obviously a step down over the current IS300. The big thing is what do they plan to start the 2.5 version price at? If they can start an automatic version at 27k then that works, but will it be that cheap? I'll be happy to take the 2.5 if the price reflects it. If a 2.5 with automatic, sunroof, and leather runs over 30 grand then what kind of pricing are we looking at for the upper 3.0/3.5 version?
Look for the 2.5 to have 211/188 with probably a slight decrease in horsepower. This on possibly a bigger, heavier car than the current IS300 at possibly the same price then it looks like overall performance for the buck is going down.
You kill your credibility when you make such a glaring mistake. BMW is known for its wonderful I6s (that is in-line). BMW does not make or use V6s. Marques like MB and Jaguar (foolishly) moved away from their I6s to V6s.
Can't say I really care too much about all the speculation. We'll really know when it is officially announced by Lexus.
"The all new IS350 will have a 3.5 litre v-6 that will have over 300hp. It will also be available in a 2.5 liter as well. It also will be available in awd."
How do you know this?
I'm getting use to the idea of the 2.5 being the base engine. As long as the car isn't over 3300 pounds and the engine makes most of the torque down low (which it's suppose to) then it should be ok for someone like me. Now if it comes in at 28k or below it ought to be worth looking at.