Before you buy a CIVIC GX contact the Southern California Gas Company for approval to install the PHILL unit. It took three weeks for the Gas Company to approve my request. The selling dealer may not know about this requirement.
I have been waiting for 8 weeks for the So. Cal. gas company to sign off for my PHILL install. I still don't have it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks So. Cal. Gas! I can't wait to hear from the people who buy a new 2005 honda GX get the PHILL from Honda then have to wait two months for the So. Cal. Gas Company to pull their head out of their butt.
I have one of the first Phill units that were installed in Southern Ca. Originally I was planning a dual meter and that would have required having the gas company involved. When I told them that I changed my mind and I wasn't going to get the second meter, they said that no approval from them was required. Just a permit from my local building department. I wonder what you are running into. (Things may have changed.)
I live in Arizona and I don't know if that makes a difference or not. I do have two meters thru Southwest Gas. I actually get charged two different rates. The rate for the 'CNG Fuel' as they call it is about 40% less than the 'Home Fuel' as they call it. So using the one to get started may be good to start to use the Phill, but you may want to check if it would be cheaper to have the second installed eventially.
This is really interesting how things change. So. Cal. gas company now has to sign off on your Phill installation. I finally got my approval 8 weeks to the day after sending it in. Today So. Cal. gas is sending their own tech over to see that the supply line installed for Phill holds 15 lbs of pressure. With the gas company signing off on everything the installer comes back and attaches PHILL to the gas meter. So. Cal. Gas doesn't want it's customers to install separate gas meters. I heard from the Calif NGV Coalition (cngvc.org) that So. Cal. gas had just submitted to the Calif PUC, a flat rate for all natural gas usage for Phill owners. I was told that the flat rate for PHILL owners should be very attractive especially with Natural gas rates on the rise this winter.
the only requirement that I am aware of is a form that you MUST sign requesting the gas company to "evaluate the gas quality at any proposed refueling location to ensure compliance with state regulations" They are saying it is a "quality test" not an inspection, but is mandatory or NO service.
I received authorization from Southern California Gas Company last week after waiting 21 days. It is my understanding that the only other inspection will be done by Los Angeles Dept. of Building and Safety.
I purchased the GX with the PHILL unit. The SCAQMD pays $2,000.00 and Honda pay $1,500.00. FuelMaker would not ship the unit until I provided documentation from the Gas Company. Thus I do not have the unit yet and I purchased the car on October 3, 2005!
This simply appears to be new to all of the parties involved and causes some confusion.
About a week after providing documentation to FuelMaker about the gas quality at my home, Phill arrived. The installation in my case required a lot of work and expense. Cutting concrete, trench for wiring 18 inches deep, steel pipe 12 inches deep and a new subpanel. All anchored in a concrete footing.
The unit works great without any problems!
I pay $1.44 for each gge (Los Angeles) and adding the power Phill uses I will be paying about $1.60/gge.
I think they meant $1500.00. I had two bids. One was $1,500 and the other was $1,100 including city permit fees. They were apples to apples. I have my own crews so I ran a 3/4" gas line and had a dedicated electrical connection provided. So, for $1,100.00 they ordered the device, brought it to my house, uncrated (unboxed), hung the machine on the wall, connected the gas line, and plugged it in. It took two or three hours. They had come out on a prior trip for the estimate. You can find a list of installers on the Fuelmaker website, hopefully one in your area.
Drain Work was the installer 1-800-657-5634. They are located at 1042 S. La Cienega, Los Angeles 90035.
A post was made a while back that the PUC (?) was considering a flat rate for home fueling so the gas co would not have to install second meters, or some other reason. Does anybody know where this stands?
I believe you drive a Crown Vic. The Phill refuels at less than .5 gal per hour. The life of the machine, I believe, is 4,000hrs. Just something to consider.
I was just saying it in a nice way, but you are so right...we are just being hosed by the gas co (Sempra).
Thanks for the info, I will do all of my homework before I act.
I was aware of the limited lifespan on Phill, I understand that the procedure is to return the unit to Fuelmaker and they send out a new/refurbished one in its place - I wonder what this "hidden" cost is?
I wonder if Fuelmaker is candid about the longevity with the purchasers of Phill?
Based on a 4,000 hour lifespan, using Phill 8 hours a night would mean replacement/overhaul every 16 months or so - the more considerations the more complicated the math gets. Even at $1.45 vs. $2.15 per gge is it cheaper with Phill? Or are you just getting the convenience of home re fueling? Cost of unit, cost of installation, cost of electricity, cost of maintenance (plus shipping to and from Canada), cost of gas - the more factors the less likely it is that Phill will save money. That is a real shame.
I was also aware of the .5 per hour fill ratio, but because my car is idle for about 10 - 12 hours I figured it might still be viable. Even with my range (about 250 - 300 miles) I still need to gas up frequently due to the high mileage that I drive, yesterday I gassed up in Long Beach twice. I was hoping that Phill would cut down on the days when I need to refuel twice.
If you check out the gas company's website there is a section called "advice letters" or something along those lines. If you check out that portion of the site you will find (among everything else) letters to the PUC on all of the issues that concern us as CNG users. You will also find the "infamous" letter requesting permission to bend the drivers of CNG vehicles over and charge them a comparable rate to gasoline.
Thank you very much for all of the advice and suggestions relating to Phill. I will have to seriously consider my options - although the thought of home re fueling is very attractive
I figured you would check things out pretty carefully. I never expected to save a bundle, but I wanted an alternate source of transportation for the office. I am really happy with the car, the home fueling is wonderful, not paying for parking in my area is great, and solo in the car pool lanes is just icing on the cake. Getting up in the morning with a full tank is the greatest.
I was not aware of the return policy of the Phill unit. I hope that is correct. I thought I'd be purchasing another one at the end of the life cycle. That dramatically reduces the amount of my overall gas cost projections. I'm not depending on it though, as I have not received the promised rebate of $2,000.00 yet.
Thanks for the tip. I'll check the gas co web site.
I checked the web site and beginning Feb. 2006, if approved, they proposed to sell gas at 15.315 (typo??) per therm for home refuelers with a $10.00 per month additional charge. Also, we will have to pay about $36.00 per year in road taxes. This has been submitted for approval. It is a long "advise" letter and I just read the overview. I need to read it completely.
I am flying blind with my response; so don't take everything as gospel...
However, it seems as if you have just discovered the mother lode. The advice letter you are referring to is No. 3554 dated November 29, 2005, so it’s brand new – I wasn’t aware of it when I posted last. If my reading is correct (and I only scanned it briefly), the proposal is that CNG users have the option of receiving natural gas at a flat rate.
I just checked my gas bill; I am currently paying a baseline of $0.16438 per therm. So if your (my) reading is correct, the gas co. is going to reduce the per therm charge to $0.15315. I am rusty on my math, and I don't remember when/where I acquired this fact, but I think that 1.25 therms is equal to one gge. Of course if I look at last winter's gas bill I paid $0.88 over 52 therms and $1.06 over 97 therms (equivalent to $1.10 and $1.32 per gge respectively) – but under a flat rate plan at 16 cents per therm one gas gallon equivalent would cost $0.21 – can that be right????? I am confident that if I have miscalculated someone will correct me – I would just like all of this to be right, but it seems just too good to be true.
Further reading of the advice letter shows that to receive the G-NGV rate would require installation of a second gas meter at the customer’s expense. I wonder how much that would be? Even with this expense, it seems that home refueling would be very attractive.
As for the $10 per month surcharge – again if all of my other numbers are right, so what.
The $36 annual use fuel tax is payable to the Board of Equalization. I have been paying this for the last five (or so years). In theory it should have saved me money. Prices at the pump include a 7.5-cent per gge use fuel tax, by paying the BOE I have in theory been entitled to recover all of those 7.5-cent payments. The BOE has been slack about paying my refund so to date it hasn’t worked out for me. But, as I have said, if the numbers are right, I do not begrudge paying the annual $36.
I would love to think that my calculations are correct, but I can’t get away from the old adage that if it sounds too good to be true
I did speak with someone at the gas co., they couldn’t give me an interpretation of the proposed rate in the advice letter, but they did agree that it seemed as if it would be a flat rate. Only time will tell.
With regard to my understanding on the Phill exchange/maintenance please double check me as quite a bit of my information is based on conversations with people over the last few years – I have been tracking Phill since they announced it way back in 2002, at that time it was going to cost under $1,000 to the consumer and as you know the price is currently $3,500, so a lot of things have changed.
You said that you still haven’t received your $2,000 rebate from SCAQMD – when I spoke with AJ from Fuelmaker he told me that the rebate was being applied at the purchase end and there was no need to hound the SCAQMD for the money. Perhaps you could try talking to them?
When I bought my Crown Vic it qualified as “new” because it had less that 1,000 miles on it. I received a $3,000 rebate (now sadly no longer available), I did have to wait but it was good when it arrived. Price new for my Crown Vic $34,000, price used with 777 miles $18,000 less rebate of $3,000 total cost $15,000 – those days are gone now, Honda is the only maker of new CNG cars and the fund for rebates is exhausted.
Sorry folks, the free lunch has NOT arrived via the gas co.
The current residential rate of 113.164 cents per therm is made up of 27.117 cents "transmission charge" (expences and profit) and 86.117 cents "procurement charge" (what the gas co. actually pays for the gas). You also pay 16 cents per day per meter customer charge ($ 4.80 ) mo.
Advise letter 3554 is asking the puc to reduce the "transmission charge" to 15.315 cents /therm for residential service with cng fueling , a reduction of approx. 12 cents per therm. the "procurement charge IS STILL ADDED to the transmission charge. and a customer charge of $10 mo. per meter is added.
At current rates this would only save 15 cents per gge.
On another note, Has anyone got some type of warranty from fuelmaker as to the stated life of 4000hours (2000 gge), rather than just 12 mo., and how much is an overhaul of a phill unit. ? Inquiring minds want to know.
ugh....no free lunch. well, at least we both agreed it was too good to be true. i'm glad i didn't buy this thing to save money. lol no rebate yet, questionable tranny, gas prices that went from $1.49 to $2.51 over night at sempra, getting the finger in the car pool lane.....i think the "man" knew i was going alternate energy.
by the way.....i converted a fiat to electric car in the 80's. i'd do it again, but i don't want the cost of electricity to double overnight and cause a panic on the west coast. i seem to have that power you know. lol
Well of course there's no such thing as a free lunch!! Especially not from the Gas Co.
I am sad that my "utopian math" didn't work out - in conceding this sorry state of affairs, I did only scan the advice letter and posted my (flawed) math based on that brief reading.
It is no surprise that the "flat rate" only refers to the transmission charge. I am glad that someone took the time to sit down and properly read the advice letter - I wouldn't have acted until I understood it properly, but thanks to the efforts of others, I don't need to.
You would think that during my conversation with the Gas Company NGV rep. that it would have been mentioned that the reduction was to the cost of transmission only.
It seems that the old adage is indeed true. If it sounds too good to be true...
When I mentioned my "concern" about current prices I was told that there was "good news" - the price of CNG at the pump had come down, when questioned further the Gas Co understanding of "good news" and "price reduction" failed to match my own. I've not used a Gas Co station recently but I understand the price was reduced by 23 cents per gge - any feedback?
It looks as if we are stuck with high price CNG, I was told that the "compression charge" which had originally been approx. 35 cents per gge is now in the 70 cents per gge range. So when I put 10 gge in my car I am paying $7.00 in compression charges :mad:
All in all, I like my NGV, I like the free metered parking, the HOV lane and the 91 toll road access; I am happy that I am doing my bit for the environment, but... I don't like being at the mercy of the Gas Co and ENRG. We don't have the same ability to refuel as our gasoline powered counterparts, and our choice of vendors is limited. As bad as the oil companies are I don't recall such a drastic increase in the price of a gallon or gasoline - from $1.50 to $2.50 almost overnight.
Thanks for all of the corrections/stats on prices, gge, etc. At least I know I won't be misinformed if I seek advice here first.
On another note has anyone tried the British made equivalent of Phill? I don't know what the price is, still trying to find that out, but I had heard it was 40% of the price of Phill. I wonder if the rebates would apply to it as well? And there is no need to pay through the nose for an authorized Phill installer.
Have you called a Fuelmaker dealer about a fmq 2-36? I think they are about $7,500.00. 1.3gge per hour and a 4,000hr life before that mandatory overhaul. I don't know if the gas co would allow it at home though. As I mentioned to you, I would consider it for my office. I guess that would be 5,200 gge over its life as opposed to 1,800 for the Phill. Just another thing to mull over. good luck!!!
91 toll road discount. Nope I checked this about 4 months ago. Called and was told no discounts to cars even CNG/electric. Only motorcycles get a free ride durring non-rush hour.
By all means, double check my information. The toll roads do not offer any discounts for CNG cars, on the other hand the 91 Express Lanes allow CNG cars to use the "3+" lane which results in no charge for most hours of the day, but only a 50% discount on the westbound (I think) during peak hours.
If in doubt please check the following link to the Orange County Transportation Authority website (they own the 91 Fastrak) the "three ride free" policy applies to motorcycles, zero emmission vehicles and disabled license plates. http://www.octa.net/toll policy.asp#3
I too spoke with someone and was told that the discount did apply to all vehicles with the DMV issued HOV access sticker. Perhaps it depends on whom you speak with, and their understanding of the question being asked?
In respectful reply to the posting by Moore101 the assertion by the Toll Roads employee to him that no cars are issued a discount is clearly refuted by the statement on the OCTA's website. I have been aware of, and taking advantage of this policy since March 5, 2002.
Please verify for yourself, I will continue with my own understanding of the policy.
Good that it works for you civicgxowner but when I called I was told no discounts on the 91 express lanes. If you do it on a regular basis without penalty then the person I spoke with must have been wrong. But according to that link the GX is not a motorcycle, zero emmissions vehicle or disabled (depending on the driver) so who knows.
Have you ever been cited? Did you have to register your transponder as having a exempt vehicle?
here is the Discount policy from the 91 expresslanes site: don't ask me what the item in bold means
Discounts Vehicles with three or more persons (HOV3+), zero emission vehicles (ZEVs), motorcycles, disabled plates and disabled veterans are permitted to ride free in the 91 Express Lanes during most hours. The exception is Monday through Friday 4:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. in the eastbound direction when these users pay 50 percent of the toll. The exception that these users pay 50 percent remains in effect until such time as the Debt Service Coverage Ratio - inclusive of senior and subordinated debt - is projected to be 1.2 or greater for a six month period. At that time, HOV3+ users will ride free all day, every day.
I think a lot of the answers you get from any agency depend on the person you speak with.
I agree that it references "zero emissions vehicles" in the discount policy - I am sure that the old policy was worded differently, but I don't have a copy of it. However, I don't think that there are any true "zero emissions vehicles" out there with the exception of a 100% electric car (even then there is a debate about the production of the electricity).
Practically speaking I don't think there is an electric vehicle currently available to the public (is the RAV4 still being sold?) and it does seem an odd policy to have in place for the minuscule amount of electric cars that may or may not use the 91 Express Lanes.
As I said I was told that the qualifier for the discount was the DMV issued "Access OK" sticker. My initial experience was when the Express Lanes were privately owned, at that time they only gave a 50% discount and because it was separately owned from the Toll Roads you were required to have a primary account with them.
Do not take my word as being set in stone, do your own research and verify the information. A phone call to the OCTA this morning provided a lot of "I don't knows."
It is possible that since the advent of the hybrid access to the car pool lane the policy has changed (I am guessing about this). Another phone call to the 91 customer service also proved woefully short of answers - the staff, including the supervisors are unable to tell the difference between an alternate fuel vehicle, such as CNG, and a hybrid.
Once upon a time those of us driving an alternate fuel vehicle, with the white decal, were granted the same privileges as the electric cars then on the road, then came the hybrid with the yellow decal - can the increase in the number of vehicles with "access ok" have caused a reduction in benefits to the dedicated alternate fuel vehicle?
Another argument in favor of use of the 3+ is that the 91 express lanes are now owned by OCTA, a governmental agency, if the State has given car pool access to CNG with solo drivers the OCTA must follow suit - in some parts of the State the HOV requirement is 3 or more riders and CNG vehicles are exempt from that requirement - I don't know if the car pool lane on the 10 still has the 3 in a vehicle requirement any more.
I think it is important to do your own research and satisfy yourself before acting. I have been driving a CNG car for almost five years now and some of my information has been gathered along the way, it may be that the policy has changed, but I can't find anyone at either OCTA or the 91 Express Lanes that can give me a straight answer.
I will concede that times and policies change, and I do not advocate that you drive the 3+ lane until you satisfy your own criteria. For my part I will continue with my understanding until it is clearly spelled out for me. The twelve year old that answered the phone at OCTA was unable to do that.
If you or anyone else out there gets a definitive answer, please let me know, I will do the same.
Lastly, I have not been stopped by the CHP, but there is another poster on the Natural Gas Fueled Vehicles forum that has been stopped and has been able to explain it to the CHP. It seems that he, like me, has been driving with this understanding for at least the last three years.
I have had a free account for the 91 for over a year. You have to leave a $40 deposit, and you do get charged for other FastTrak freeways (like the 241), but the 91 is free anytime in both directions. We had to go to the office and fill out a special form, and bring in our registration. I don't know if their policy has changed in the last year, but we have never been charged and use it almost every week.
We bought a used FMQ2-36 and I'm glad we did vs. waiting for Phill. FMQ2-36 has to be installed outside but you can have a 'remote fill panel' indoors. There have been a couple of FMQ2-36s on Ebay in the last few months which go for less than 1/2 of the new price.
I purchased a used FMQ-2 (3000 psi model) from the local FuelMaker rep and had him install it. There are a number of code and installation technique issues to deal with so best left to a pro. Get the electrical and gas permits as required or you could jeopardize your home insurance or face other liability / safety concerns. Nice thing about these larger units is they fill faster than the "Phill". I suggest you get the optional 25 ft long hose to allow for ample vehicle access. Only possible drawback is the unit must be located outside, and fueling must be outside. Works for me.
I'm looking for a recommendation for a Phill installer in So. CA. I live in South Orange County (Dana Point). I have talked with two different installers and I can not get either of them to follow through with installation. Any help would be appreciated.
I used Drain Work. I think they are a two man team, but I don't know how far south they go. I live in Santa Monica. They did what they said they would do and on time too. They were also the cheaper bid. I don't believe I can post their number here, but they are on the Fuelmaker web site. Good Luck.
"Phill" owners, 1. has anyone timed a partial fill starting from an almost empty tank ? And if you have, does the unit work slower at higher pressure ? . The reason I ask is if I only needed 1 to 2 GGE per day , this would lower the electricity required and total per gallon equivalent.2> Has anyone leased a "phill" unit , PS. at the pumps , Long Beach , 1.75 , So cal gas 2.03.
I leased a Phill unit when I purchased my new 2005 GX in October 2005. The 48 month lease payments are zero. $2,000.00 was paid to Fuelmaker from the South Coast Air Quality Management District in the Los Angeles area. Honda paid the balance. It is likely that the unit may be near the end of its life by 2009.
I calculated the cost at $1.60 per GGE including the power to run the unit.
It took the Gas Company 21 days to approve the natural gas at my home before I could get the Phill unit! So the key point is to GET GAS COMPANY APPROVAL BEFORE BUYING THE CAR. The gas company was not very responsive my phone calls.
The assistance from Honda, SCAQMD and Fuelmaker is outstanding.
I have measured the rate that Phill compresses natural gas and I have found that the rate does not change much.
When my fuel tank is near empty Phill compresses gas at .59 gge/hr (using 1.2KWH per gge). When the fuel tank is near full it pumps .46 gge/hr (using 1.9KWH per gge).
I concluded that it is best to simply fill the tank in your car until full.
My cost of Natural gas including electrical power is about $1.40 per gge. Power $0.16 Gas $1.23 per therm or $1.40 per gge.
The FMQ-2-36 is approved for outdoor residential use. It has a regular service overhaul, so it can be kept running for a indefinite amount of time. I believe the overhaul is around $500.
My partner just ordered one yesterday for her house. I have had mine for 6 months or so. Mine was $3,000 with the promise of a $1,500 rebate, which I have never received. They must have their act together now as she paid $1,500 for the unit. The unit is usually shipped directly to the installer. You are supposed to have your gas tested by the Gas Co for quality. This took her more than 5 phone calls and 6 weeks or so. Then there is the city permit and installation costs of $1,500 and up depending on the difficulty of the job.
In Arizona, Phill is $3500.00, $150.00 Shipping, +Tax, and Installation usually runs around $1000.00 depending on how much electric and gas piping are involved. No South Coast subsidies here. There is a $1000.00 Fed Tax Credit on Phill.
Can you elaborate on the tax credit? All I found was a tax deduction for the purchase and installation price for Phill. "Tax Deduction for Clean Air Vehicle Property" or something like that.
WOW when did you get that Phill? Mine at best does .42 GGE. How do you calculate this? Do you have a gas meter just for the Phill? My Phill tapers off to less than .25 GGE for the last few percent. I have questioned my math to convert from cubic meters (my meter) to GGE, what conversion math are you using?
Sorry about the 60 questions but the performance of our Phill is less than we expected.
I installed a gas meter for my Phill unit (cost delivered $149.00 from Measurement Control systems, in Santa Ana)
I measured one cubic foot of gas in 68.27 seconds which equals 52.73 cubic feet/hr. If one gge is 114 cubic feet of gas then 52.73 is .46 of one gge. This is very close to the specifications in the Phill manual (.42 gge/hr).
The unit use about .902KW thus it uses about 1.95 KWH per gge. My unit pumps only slightly less when the tank is near full.
So, in the morning its 50 degrees, by 2pm its 110 degrees. Do I want to fill up at night when its cool and drive in the day to work, or fill up in the morning and let it sit overnight? Jsut curious if this helps.
I'm going to give the simple science answer. If there are specifics of the operation of the Phill that are relevant, then somebody can add them and maybe correct my assumptions.
Assuming that the Phill shuts off when the pressure inside the tank reaches a certain value, then the tank can hold more gas at a lower temperature. So you would fill the tank when it is cool and then drive to work. As the day gets warmer the pressure in the tank will rise but presumably the tank has a safety factor in its design so that this would not exceed the pressure limit of the tank. Anyway you would presumably be driving to work before the heat of the day which would decrease the pressure in the tank.
For a given pressure a tank will hold 12% more gas at 50 deg F (283K) than at 110 deg F (317 K). The ratio of the weights of gas is inversely proportional to the ratio of the temperatures, measured from absolute zero (standard units kelvins): 317/283 = 1.12.
I think the operating instructions for the Phill state that the Phill and the car should be in the same room, or at the same temperature. This indicates that the manufacturer doesn't want people to try to get excess capacity by having either the Phill or the car cooler than the other.
Someone on this forum must know exactly why the manufacturer doesn't want this. The Phill may detect the temperature and adjust the cutoff pressure accordingly. I could speculate on what the manufacturer is trying to prevent, and it would be better to let someone who knows comment, but here is one possibility.
Perhaps the manufacturer does not want an excessive pressure rise to occur say from filling the tank at a low temperature and then driving a short distance and parking the car in the bright sun on a black asphalt parking lot. So the Phill detects the ambient temperature and fills to a lower pressure when the temperature is lower and to a higher pressure when the ambient temperature is higher. This is just speculation on my part, but if this is the case then it would not make much difference whether you filled at 50 F or 110 F.
Add $1,045 to my last posting for a bid for the installation of the phill unit. This does not include the dedicated electric line that has to be added. I am told 5 to 6 weeks for delivery of the unit.
I just had two "tankless" waterheaters installed in two different houses. One plumber charged $1100 and another one $1200 above the price of the heaters, which were only $380 apiece.
Comments
I still don't have it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks So. Cal. Gas!
I can't wait to hear from the people who buy a new 2005 honda GX get the PHILL from Honda then have to wait two months for the So. Cal. Gas Company to pull their head out of their butt.
I purchased the GX with the PHILL unit. The SCAQMD pays $2,000.00 and Honda pay $1,500.00. FuelMaker would not ship the unit until I provided documentation from the Gas Company. Thus I do not have the unit yet and I purchased the car on October 3, 2005!
This simply appears to be new to all of the parties involved and causes some confusion.
The unit works great without any problems!
I pay $1.44 for each gge (Los Angeles) and adding the power Phill uses I will be paying about $1.60/gge.
How much did the install cost and do you have the phone number of the installer? Maybe I can get a quote before I commit.
Fuelmaker gave me a rough estimate of about $150 for the install, something I have a little trouble believing.
Thanks in advance.
Drain Work was the installer 1-800-657-5634. They are located at 1042 S. La Cienega, Los Angeles 90035.
A post was made a while back that the PUC (?) was considering a flat rate for home fueling so the gas co would not have to install second meters, or some other reason. Does anybody know where this stands?
I believe you drive a Crown Vic. The Phill refuels at less than .5 gal per hour. The life of the machine, I believe, is 4,000hrs. Just something to consider.
I was just saying it in a nice way, but you are so right...we are just being hosed by the gas co (Sempra).
Thanks for the info, I will do all of my homework before I act.
I was aware of the limited lifespan on Phill, I understand that the procedure is to return the unit to Fuelmaker and they send out a new/refurbished one in its place - I wonder what this "hidden" cost is?
I wonder if Fuelmaker is candid about the longevity with the purchasers of Phill?
Based on a 4,000 hour lifespan, using Phill 8 hours a night would mean replacement/overhaul every 16 months or so - the more considerations the more complicated the math gets. Even at $1.45 vs. $2.15 per gge is it cheaper with Phill? Or are you just getting the convenience of home re fueling? Cost of unit, cost of installation, cost of electricity, cost of maintenance (plus shipping to and from Canada), cost of gas - the more factors the less likely it is that Phill will save money. That is a real shame.
I was also aware of the .5 per hour fill ratio, but because my car is idle for about 10 - 12 hours I figured it might still be viable. Even with my range (about 250 - 300 miles) I still need to gas up frequently due to the high mileage that I drive, yesterday I gassed up in Long Beach twice. I was hoping that Phill would cut down on the days when I need to refuel twice.
If you check out the gas company's website there is a section called "advice letters" or something along those lines. If you check out that portion of the site you will find (among everything else) letters to the PUC on all of the issues that concern us as CNG users. You will also find the "infamous" letter requesting permission to bend the drivers of CNG vehicles over and charge them a comparable rate to gasoline.
Thank you very much for all of the advice and suggestions relating to Phill. I will have to seriously consider my options - although the thought of home re fueling is very attractive
I figured you would check things out pretty carefully. I never expected to save a bundle, but I wanted an alternate source of transportation for the office. I am really happy with the car, the home fueling is wonderful, not paying for parking in my area is great, and solo in the car pool lanes is just icing on the cake. Getting up in the morning with a full tank is the greatest.
I was not aware of the return policy of the Phill unit. I hope that is correct. I thought I'd be purchasing another one at the end of the life cycle. That dramatically reduces the amount of my overall gas cost projections. I'm not depending on it though, as I have not received the promised rebate of $2,000.00 yet.
Thanks for the tip. I'll check the gas co web site.
I checked the web site and beginning Feb. 2006, if approved, they proposed to sell gas at 15.315 (typo??) per therm for home refuelers with a $10.00 per month additional charge. Also, we will have to pay about $36.00 per year in road taxes. This has been submitted for approval. It is a long "advise" letter and I just read the overview. I need to read it completely.
I am flying blind with my response; so don't take everything as gospel...
However, it seems as if you have just discovered the mother lode. The advice letter you are referring to is No. 3554 dated November 29, 2005, so it’s brand new – I wasn’t aware of it when I posted last. If my reading is correct (and I only scanned it briefly), the proposal is that CNG users have the option of receiving natural gas at a flat rate.
I just checked my gas bill; I am currently paying a baseline of $0.16438 per therm. So if your (my) reading is correct, the gas co. is going to reduce the per therm charge to $0.15315. I am rusty on my math, and I don't remember when/where I acquired this fact, but I think that 1.25 therms is equal to one gge. Of course if I look at last winter's gas bill I paid $0.88 over 52 therms and $1.06 over 97 therms (equivalent to $1.10 and $1.32 per gge respectively) – but under a flat rate plan at 16 cents per therm one gas gallon equivalent would cost $0.21 – can that be right????? I am confident that if I have miscalculated someone will correct me – I would just like all of this to be right, but it seems just too good to be true.
Further reading of the advice letter shows that to receive the G-NGV rate would require installation of a second gas meter at the customer’s expense. I wonder how much that would be? Even with this expense, it seems that home refueling would be very attractive.
As for the $10 per month surcharge – again if all of my other numbers are right, so what.
The $36 annual use fuel tax is payable to the Board of Equalization. I have been paying this for the last five (or so years). In theory it should have saved me money. Prices at the pump include a 7.5-cent per gge use fuel tax, by paying the BOE I have in theory been entitled to recover all of those 7.5-cent payments. The BOE has been slack about paying my refund so to date it hasn’t worked out for me. But, as I have said, if the numbers are right, I do not begrudge paying the annual $36.
I would love to think that my calculations are correct, but I can’t get away from the old adage that if it sounds too good to be true
I did speak with someone at the gas co., they couldn’t give me an interpretation of the proposed rate in the advice letter, but they did agree that it seemed as if it would be a flat rate. Only time will tell.
With regard to my understanding on the Phill exchange/maintenance please double check me as quite a bit of my information is based on conversations with people over the last few years – I have been tracking Phill since they announced it way back in 2002, at that time it was going to cost under $1,000 to the consumer and as you know the price is currently $3,500, so a lot of things have changed.
You said that you still haven’t received your $2,000 rebate from SCAQMD – when I spoke with AJ from Fuelmaker he told me that the rebate was being applied at the purchase end and there was no need to hound the SCAQMD for the money. Perhaps you could try talking to them?
When I bought my Crown Vic it qualified as “new” because it had less that 1,000 miles on it. I received a $3,000 rebate (now sadly no longer available), I did have to wait but it was good when it arrived. Price new for my Crown Vic $34,000, price used with 777 miles $18,000 less rebate of $3,000 total cost $15,000 – those days are gone now, Honda is the only maker of new CNG cars and the fund for rebates is exhausted.
Thanks again for all the advice and suggestions.
The current residential rate of 113.164 cents per therm is made up of 27.117 cents "transmission charge" (expences and profit) and 86.117 cents "procurement charge" (what the gas co. actually pays for the gas).
You also pay 16 cents per day per meter customer charge ($ 4.80 ) mo.
Advise letter 3554 is asking the puc to reduce the "transmission charge" to 15.315 cents /therm for residential service with cng fueling , a reduction of approx. 12 cents per therm. the "procurement charge IS STILL ADDED to the transmission charge.
and a customer charge of $10 mo. per meter is added.
At current rates this would only save 15 cents per gge.
On another note, Has anyone got some type of warranty from fuelmaker as to the stated life of 4000hours (2000 gge), rather than just 12 mo., and how much is an overhaul of a phill unit. ?
Inquiring minds want to know.
John.
ugh....no free lunch. well, at least we both agreed it was too good to be true. i'm glad i didn't buy this thing to save money. lol no rebate yet, questionable tranny, gas prices that went from $1.49 to $2.51 over night at sempra, getting the finger in the car pool lane.....i think the "man" knew i was going alternate energy.
by the way.....i converted a fiat to electric car in the 80's. i'd do it again, but i don't want the cost of electricity to double overnight and cause a panic on the west coast. i seem to have that power you know. lol
rst
I am sad that my "utopian math" didn't work out - in conceding this sorry state of affairs, I did only scan the advice letter and posted my (flawed) math based on that brief reading.
It is no surprise that the "flat rate" only refers to the transmission charge. I am glad that someone took the time to sit down and properly read the advice letter - I wouldn't have acted until I understood it properly, but thanks to the efforts of others, I don't need to.
You would think that during my conversation with the Gas Company NGV rep. that it would have been mentioned that the reduction was to the cost of transmission only.
It seems that the old adage is indeed true. If it sounds too good to be true...
When I mentioned my "concern" about current prices I was told that there was "good news" - the price of CNG at the pump had come down, when questioned further the Gas Co understanding of "good news" and "price reduction" failed to match my own. I've not used a Gas Co station recently but I understand the price was reduced by 23 cents per gge - any feedback?
It looks as if we are stuck with high price CNG, I was told that the "compression charge" which had originally been approx. 35 cents per gge is now in the 70 cents per gge range. So when I put 10 gge in my car I am paying $7.00 in compression charges :mad:
All in all, I like my NGV, I like the free metered parking, the HOV lane and the 91 toll road access; I am happy that I am doing my bit for the environment, but... I don't like being at the mercy of the Gas Co and ENRG. We don't have the same ability to refuel as our gasoline powered counterparts, and our choice of vendors is limited. As bad as the oil companies are I don't recall such a drastic increase in the price of a gallon or gasoline - from $1.50 to $2.50 almost overnight.
Thanks for all of the corrections/stats on prices, gge, etc. At least I know I won't be misinformed if I seek advice here first.
On another note has anyone tried the British made equivalent of Phill? I don't know what the price is, still trying to find that out, but I had heard it was 40% of the price of Phill. I wonder if the rebates would apply to it as well? And there is no need to pay through the nose for an authorized Phill installer.
Have you called a Fuelmaker dealer about a fmq 2-36? I think they are about $7,500.00. 1.3gge per hour and a 4,000hr life before that mandatory overhaul. I don't know if the gas co would allow it at home though. As I mentioned to you, I would consider it for my office. I guess that would be 5,200 gge over its life as opposed to 1,800 for the Phill. Just another thing to mull over. good luck!!!
If in doubt please check the following link to the Orange County Transportation Authority website (they own the 91 Fastrak) the "three ride free" policy applies to motorcycles, zero emmission vehicles and disabled license plates. http://www.octa.net/toll policy.asp#3
I too spoke with someone and was told that the discount did apply to all vehicles with the DMV issued HOV access sticker. Perhaps it depends on whom you speak with, and their understanding of the question being asked?
In respectful reply to the posting by Moore101 the assertion by the Toll Roads employee to him that no cars are issued a discount is clearly refuted by the statement on the OCTA's website. I have been aware of, and taking advantage of this policy since March 5, 2002.
Please verify for yourself, I will continue with my own understanding of the policy.
Have you ever been cited? Did you have to register your transponder as having a exempt vehicle?
don't ask me what the item in bold means
Discounts
Vehicles with three or more persons (HOV3+), zero emission vehicles (ZEVs), motorcycles, disabled plates and disabled veterans are permitted to ride free in the 91 Express Lanes during most hours. The exception is Monday through Friday 4:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. in the eastbound direction when these users pay 50 percent of the toll. The exception that these users pay 50 percent remains in effect until such time as the Debt Service Coverage Ratio - inclusive of senior and subordinated debt - is projected to be 1.2 or greater for a six month period. At that time, HOV3+ users will ride free all day, every day.
I think a lot of the answers you get from any agency depend on the person you speak with.
I agree that it references "zero emissions vehicles" in the discount policy - I am sure that the old policy was worded differently, but I don't have a copy of it. However, I don't think that there are any true "zero emissions vehicles" out there with the exception of a 100% electric car (even then there is a debate about the production of the electricity).
Practically speaking I don't think there is an electric vehicle currently available to the public (is the RAV4 still being sold?) and it does seem an odd policy to have in place for the minuscule amount of electric cars that may or may not use the 91 Express Lanes.
As I said I was told that the qualifier for the discount was the DMV issued "Access OK" sticker. My initial experience was when the Express Lanes were privately owned, at that time they only gave a 50% discount and because it was separately owned from the Toll Roads you were required to have a primary account with them.
Do not take my word as being set in stone, do your own research and verify the information. A phone call to the OCTA this morning provided a lot of "I don't knows."
It is possible that since the advent of the hybrid access to the car pool lane the policy has changed (I am guessing about this). Another phone call to the 91 customer service also proved woefully short of answers - the staff, including the supervisors are unable to tell the difference between an alternate fuel vehicle, such as CNG, and a hybrid.
Once upon a time those of us driving an alternate fuel vehicle, with the white decal, were granted the same privileges as the electric cars then on the road, then came the hybrid with the yellow decal - can the increase in the number of vehicles with "access ok" have caused a reduction in benefits to the dedicated alternate fuel vehicle?
Another argument in favor of use of the 3+ is that the 91 express lanes are now owned by OCTA, a governmental agency, if the State has given car pool access to CNG with solo drivers the OCTA must follow suit - in some parts of the State the HOV requirement is 3 or more riders and CNG vehicles are exempt from that requirement - I don't know if the car pool lane on the 10 still has the 3 in a vehicle requirement any more.
I think it is important to do your own research and satisfy yourself before acting. I have been driving a CNG car for almost five years now and some of my information has been gathered along the way, it may be that the policy has changed, but I can't find anyone at either OCTA or the 91 Express Lanes that can give me a straight answer.
I will concede that times and policies change, and I do not advocate that you drive the 3+ lane until you satisfy your own criteria. For my part I will continue with my understanding until it is clearly spelled out for me. The twelve year old that answered the phone at OCTA was unable to do that.
If you or anyone else out there gets a definitive answer, please let me know, I will do the same.
Lastly, I have not been stopped by the CHP, but there is another poster on the Natural Gas Fueled Vehicles forum that has been stopped and has been able to explain it to the CHP. It seems that he, like me, has been driving with this understanding for at least the last three years.
Thank you for your input.
Do you have a copy of that form? Do you know the name or number of the form? Any of this information would be extremely helpful to everyone here.
Phone calls to the OCTA and the 91 Express Lanes have proved ineffective and your information could prove to be invaluable.
Thanks.
I've been waiting a couple months now for approval on a Phill unit???
I suggest you get the optional 25 ft long hose to allow for ample vehicle access.
Only possible drawback is the unit must be located outside, and fueling must be outside. Works for me.
In a nutshell, Phill uses one dedicated 120VAC outlet, pumps at approximately 0.42 GGE per hour, can run indoors, and is somewhat quiet (47dBA). It needs about 5% of it's operating time to run a gas "drying" cycle.
http://www.myphill.com/files/finalPHILLSPECcopy.pdf
http://www.myphill.com/downloads.htm
The commercial unit uses 240VAC power, pumps (a bit more than) twice as fast, requires an outdoors installation, and is not quite twice as loud (49dBA).
http://www.fuelmaker.com/Products/NaturalGasRefueling/ProductSpecifications/Spec- ifications/
If I'm not mistaken, you can add an accessory to the commercial unit to pump it inside your garage.
Thanks,
Chris
Good Luck.
PS. at the pumps , Long Beach , 1.75 , So cal gas 2.03.
I calculated the cost at $1.60 per GGE including the power to run the unit.
It took the Gas Company 21 days to approve the natural gas at my home before I could get the Phill unit! So the key point is to GET GAS COMPANY APPROVAL BEFORE BUYING THE CAR. The gas company was not very responsive my phone calls.
The assistance from Honda, SCAQMD and Fuelmaker is outstanding.
When my fuel tank is near empty Phill compresses gas at .59 gge/hr (using 1.2KWH per gge). When the fuel tank is near full it pumps .46 gge/hr (using 1.9KWH per gge).
I concluded that it is best to simply fill the tank in your car until full.
My cost of Natural gas including electrical power is about $1.40 per gge. Power $0.16 Gas $1.23 per therm or $1.40 per gge.
WOW when did you get that Phill? Mine at best does .42 GGE. How do you calculate this? Do you have a gas meter just for the Phill? My Phill tapers off to less than .25 GGE for the last few percent. I have questioned my math to convert from cubic meters (my meter) to GGE, what conversion math are you using?
Sorry about the 60 questions but the performance of our Phill is less than we expected.
Thanks
PFM
I installed a gas meter for my Phill unit (cost delivered $149.00 from Measurement Control systems, in Santa Ana)
I measured one cubic foot of gas in 68.27 seconds which equals 52.73 cubic feet/hr. If one gge is 114 cubic feet of gas then 52.73 is .46 of one gge. This is very close to the specifications in the Phill manual (.42 gge/hr).
The unit use about .902KW thus it uses about 1.95 KWH per gge. My unit pumps only slightly less when the tank is near full.
Please check my math, I am looking at old notes.
Do I want to fill up at night when its cool and drive in the day to work, or fill up in the morning and let it sit overnight?
Jsut curious if this helps.
Assuming that the Phill shuts off when the pressure inside the tank reaches a certain value, then the tank can hold more gas at a lower temperature. So you would fill the tank when it is cool and then drive to work. As the day gets warmer the pressure in the tank will rise but presumably the tank has a safety factor in its design so that this would not exceed the pressure limit of the tank. Anyway you would presumably be driving to work before the heat of the day which would decrease the pressure in the tank.
For a given pressure a tank will hold 12% more gas at 50 deg F (283K) than at 110 deg F (317 K). The ratio of the weights of gas is inversely proportional to the ratio of the temperatures, measured from absolute zero (standard units kelvins): 317/283 = 1.12.
I think the operating instructions for the Phill state that the Phill and the car should be in the same room, or at the same temperature. This indicates that the manufacturer doesn't want people to try to get excess capacity by having either the Phill or the car cooler than the other.
Someone on this forum must know exactly why the manufacturer doesn't want this. The Phill may detect the temperature and adjust the cutoff pressure accordingly. I could speculate on what the manufacturer is trying to prevent, and it would be better to let someone who knows comment, but here is one possibility.
Perhaps the manufacturer does not want an excessive pressure rise to occur say from filling the tank at a low temperature and then driving a short distance and parking the car in the bright sun on a black asphalt parking lot. So the Phill detects the ambient temperature and fills to a lower pressure when the temperature is lower and to a higher pressure when the ambient temperature is higher. This is just speculation on my part, but if this is the case then it would not make much difference whether you filled at 50 F or 110 F.
Add $1,045 to my last posting for a bid for the installation of the phill unit. This does not include the dedicated electric line that has to be added. I am told 5 to 6 weeks for delivery of the unit.
I just had two "tankless" waterheaters installed in two different houses. One plumber charged $1100 and another one $1200 above the price of the heaters, which were only $380 apiece.