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Future Collectibles--Make Your Prediction
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I suppose that a very early or very late number in an already establish collectible would make SOME difference to a real nut for that particular car. It gives them ego-points at the specialty shows. But I don't see it as bumping the price very much, and then again only on a car that's worth something to begin with. A low number on a rust bucket? I don't think so.
I personally think the Neiman Marcus editions are a bit of a joke....this kind of thing has always flopped in the collector car market, especially once the market is flooded with a gazillion new T-Birds. Even among old T-Birds, if it's just the average "bird", it's a $25K car all day long. Only the very rare supercharger or other special engine models bring really big bucks and lots of collector interest. You can go to auctions and see 55-57 T-Bird after T-Bird roll across...there are a lot of them around, and this supresses the price.
But having a factory-built supercharger, it seems to me, is a lot different than some glitzy department store badging and upholstery. Remember Bill Blass Lincolns? Or that "real Corinthian leather?" Cosmetic badging doesn't usually improve a collector car's status, no. Some of (SOME OF) the Pace Car badging can get you a few thou more, but again, too many cars of that type killed the value of them.
You know what's going to happen with the Marcus Birds? People will store every one of them, won't drive them, and then in ten years when they are tired of paying all that storage, they'll all come out on the market at once and there will be 200 of them for sale in Hemmings and 9 people who want one. Happens every time.
The game is afoot, Watson!
They were both sent to Chevrolet Engineering and most likely were destroyed after extensive testing.
# 3 actually was owned by a fellow Fresnan (From Fresno, california . . . my home land) for many years.
the Late Howard Kirsch (sound familiar?) purchased it from the owner in Fresno and had it restored.
Nothing is for sure, but the man who was driving #1 off the line in a photo said that the car was sent to engineering . . . so that is the most widely accepted theory. Also a sticker on the window designated the destination as Engineering as well.
So really . . . #3 is really #1 available to the public.
White with red interior was the first color combo used.
I have a friend in Fresno with one that has sat for over 25 years under a tarp. I wonder what # his is? I'll have to ask him.
For some wierd reason, I kinda like them too.
About the only "hot" 4-doors I can think of, and they aren't really "hot" relative to the more desirable cars-- are the Jaguar MkII 3.8, IF...and it's a BIG IF....it has a 4-speed trans, left hand drive, wire wheels and overdrive...(right hand automatics are a tough sell) and, surprisingly, the 94-96 Chevy Impala SS is now trading in the $18-22K range for nice cars, almost at their MSRP of 7 years ago. Old 4-door Rolls and Bentleys and Jags from the 80s are practically throw-aways already, a Maserati Quattroporto is selling around $7K, and American 4-doors are pretty dead all around. Oh, another "collectible" 4-door is a fully restored Checker cab, if it has all the signage and meters, etc.
Problem is, a Subaru is neither a Chevy nor a Jaguar in the public mind. Subarus are hardly in the public mind at all. Maybe when they win Lemans or something ??
1) Jaguar XJR-S (Particularly the convertibles) those are damn rare cars. I bet its' 50 years before XJS coupes are worth much.
2) BMW M6 But I bet that in the future its' the US versions only that pull the bucks.
3) BMW E28 M5
4) BMW E30 M3
5) BMW E36 M3 Lightweights.
5) Jaguar XKR, especially ragtops.
6) Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16 (Same as with M6 In regards to Grey-Market cars)
7) 93-95 (or is it 94-95?) Mercedes-Benz E320 Ragtops. A 95 E320 Ragtop is currently worth more than a '95 SL500.
8) Mercedes-Benz 500E. Very rare beast.
A few to think of..
Bill
Perhaps also people are afraid of the older Ms mechanical issues...they require lots of good care.
I think newer MB ragtops are rather bland and don't have lots of eye appeal beyond the fact that they are, in fact, Mercedes. These are more like "mature folks cars" and I don't see the younger collectors coveting them as the young 'uns get older. Besides, Benz is a mass-producer (people forget how many cars they make), so they are everywhere...also not a good boost for collectibility.
Oh, of course, someone will always want these quality ragtops as used cars, but I think it will many many years before they break their original MSRP. They aren't terribly exciting to the imagination.
Again, 4-doors of any kind have a tough road I believe...100 years of auto history say so, anyway. The big Mercedes 4-doors of the 60s and 70s are hitting bottom, value wise.
I am hopeful the M6 will start to move up in popularity...it is undervalued right now I think. The MB 190 16 valve is a minor cult car, that's true---there's interest in it, but not big money.
I haven't a clue about the XKR....in fact, I haven't a clue about most modern Jags as far as collectibility. Their terrible reputation dogs them even though they are so much better than before. Even their current ads keep talking about how much better they are---not a great idea, as it reminds people of the dreadful days.
In any case, rarity + open tops +excitement are the best indicators I think.
Something about the mid-late sixties Lincolns with the suicide doors. I know these cars were total pigs, but I think they had a classy look to them. Anybody agree or am I alone in this?
Of course, this "not worth restoring" syndrome has a reverse effect, in that as more and more of the big 4-door Lincolns deteriorate from neglect, that makes them rarer and rebalances the supply and demand equation in favor of the car.
In a sense, a 4-door hardtop has an advantage over a normal "posted" 4-door, so the Lincoln doesn't exactly fall into the doomsday scenario for most 4-doors. But a two door hardtop will always find more favor with collectors than a 4-door hardtop.
Another factor which is just a fact of life is that posted 4-doors are often collected by folks who can't afford to by/restore a 2-door or a convertible, but they want a piece of the nostaglia, and grandpa's 4-door is the only way they can join the party. So with the big money collectors wanting only converts and coupes, and with the 4-door collectors not willing or able to pay very much for the 4-doors, and without the resources to restore a 4-door (or perhaps having the common sense not to) you have a sort of rigid system that is not likely to change.
And last of all, 4-doors aren't very exciting visually or performance wise, the exception being the rare muscle-car 4-doors built in the 60s.
Something that in the early 70's that they started calling "Pillared Hardtops". Heck, Chrysler even had a body style code for it. 41 was pillared sedan, 42 was "Pillared Hardtop", and 43 was hardtop sedan.
I always thought the 60's Lincolns were neat, but I think they hit their peak after around '65 or '66 or so.
I used to have a friend whose parents had a 1969 or so Lincoln...now that thing was a pig! They also had a '78 Olds '98 that seemed lithe and nimble by comparison!
-Andre
I saw one being worked on...I remember the poor restorers actually had to cast a second timing case cover, with an opening cut in it, because the only way to hold the timing gears was to install the cover, and of course then you couldn't see the gears to time them. Hence, the duplicate cover with a viewing port. I'm sure the entire car required that level of expertise to cope with it.
Yep, quite a bit beyond an SVX, that's for sure!
I just looked up some Lincoln pics in my auto encyclopedia, and it looks like the last "true" hardtop (open from A- to C- pillar with the windows rolled down) was the gargantuan 1960 Lincoln. This was the last year for the oversized models with the canted headlights.
My auto encylcopedia does actually list the '61-65 models as "hardtop sedans" (just calls them "sdn 4d" from '66 on), but all the pictures show a thin roof pillar. It looks like the windows had thin chrome frames that rolled down with the glass, but there was still a thin pillar there. Maybe it wasn't structural, though.
For '66, the body style grew, and a hardtop coupe was added. The sedan still had a thin pillar though. There was another restyle in '70, and the pillar grew, and then it looks like '75 spawned those Love Boat sized pimpmobiles that are just so classically 70's.
I'm actually surprised though, that Lincoln didn't field a true 4-door hardtop, considering that body style usually outsold pillared sedans in the more luxurious body styles in that era, at least until air conditioning and the threat of rollover standards loomed on the horizon.
-Andre
A buddy had one not too many years back that was the exact same car. He loved it dearly but it was a money pit. I remember he had to replace the entire exhaust system including a cracked manifold. The Lincoln had, I think six mufflers on it. The job cost a fortune but my buddy insisted on having it done right. Another time his vacuum power door locks acted up. His mechanic advised him to forgo power locks due to the tremendous expense of fixing them but, no, Bob spent the money, located the parts and had the locks fixed.
Is a Mercedes diesel a future collectible? Sure, for the scrap metal collectors. But NOT YET, boys, this car is still a runner at 216K.
They also had vacuum operated parking brake releases that would release the parking brake when the cars were put into gear.
Sounds like Mercedes did a better job with these.
More future collectibles? Just about anything with 400HP in it.
Few sedans are collectible. Heck, I remember reading about a '67 Quattroporte a few years ago in Sports Car Market (Is that even still in print?) "An opprotunity to get gored by the Trident".
Jaguars, to me, are probably the rare exception in this country for truly collectible sedans. Mk VII, VIIMs, VIIIs, and IXs as well as Mk1s, Mk2s, S-Types.. those are all quite collectible.
Other than that... name me more than a small handful of truly "hot" sedans of the 50's and 60s.
It's a lot different in Europe. Particularly England. Go to the Bromley Pageant or Beaulieu. You see very active clubs full of people who love and restore old Sedans. Remember, actual British Sports cars are pretty uncommon over there in comparison to the USA.
My thoughts...
Bill
Unfortunately, most police cars were very cheaply equipped, so they're not going to appeal to the general public. I got kind of lucky with my Gran Fury. It was a sheriff's car, so it was nicely equipped with a nice stereo/tape deck, power windows, door locks, cloth interior, etc. But then it still has the nice stuff like the 175 hp 318 4bbl, hd transmission, 2.94 rear, wide offset cop rims, oil/tranny cooler, 125 mph speedo, oil gauge, etc. I know it's sad to brag about 175 hp out of a 318, but the civilian models only had 140 hp, and a 2.45 rear end! Still, the few civilians that were still buying cars like this in 1989 were probably making it their last automotive purchase before knocking on death's door, so they couldn't care less about performance and handling.
Another problem with police cars is that they tend to be abused. I guess mine had an easy life, spending most of it delivering warrants, serving court summonses, and heading off to the Donut Hut ;-)
It is kinda sad though, to think of some of the great sedans we could've had if Detroit had put the parts together. I guess that was just an era where if it had 4 doors and/or a B-pillar, it just wasn't associated with sportiness.
-Andre
These cars are without merit and hard, hard to sell to anyone for a decent price...certainly never a car you would want to restore, or even drive for that matter. A truly mechanically inept and ingainly monster of a car. I don't think these cars will ever be seriously collected except by the naive buyer who thinks they've struck gold and end up with lead. Right up there with the 70s XJ6 as Dead Duck of the Decade.
Seriously... These can be worth some bucks. But they are hell to restore costwise.
I kinda like the way they drive. Personally, they're pigs by today's standards, but they beat the heck out of most anything detroit was making back then.
Bill
Find me a nice one for $8K
Bill
Here you go, Bill...asking price is $9, 250....wave 8 large in his face and you have a nice looking drivin' Mark IX. And it's even a left-hooker! He's a dealer, so he's making money at this price...you can imagine what HE paid for it. Out of St. Louis.
1959 JAGUAR MARK IX, Rare left drive model that is in good running and
driving condition.Not fully restored but good looking and a nice driver (314)
524-6000
Shifty, you crack me up.
I think that's Mark Hyman's #. Hyman Ltd in St Louis.
I'll agree that an OK Driver is an $8K-10K car.
But I know of quite a few within the Jag club that sold for a bit of $$. They're cars that as drivers in fair shape arent worth a lot. But a REAL nice one can break the bank. I'm talking Chrome, Engine compartment, body, paint, leather, wood..etc... All real nice. A car that perhaps looks 2-3 years old.
I looked it up in Practical Classics' price guide. A Mk7-9 is worth 6000UKP in Condition 2 (Driver) and 12000UKP in Condition 1 (Show). 100% Jump. Look at XK-Es. What's a gorgeous perfect one worth? $40K+ for a really nice S1 OTS. What's a driver worth? $20-25K.
Obviously much more if you buy from "Doc"
I've seen some really gorgeous ones sell for over $20K. Quickly. But I agree that one needing some work around the edges has its' value slaughtered. I mean, C2 vs C1 is a 50% drop! Compare that to an Aston, Big Healey, XK, etc...
Bill
1. It is UGLY, bulbous, pompous and clumsy
2. It is mechanically disastrous
3.It was a failure when new, and my contention is that NO car that was a failure ever becomes a worthy collectible. The stigma or stain of failure remains in people's mind.
4. It is a disgrace to the Jaguar name. It is the 1965 tailfin Mercedes of Jaguars. The BMW 320i of jaguars? The Audi 5000 of Jaguars?
He, who wants to collect a loser? The Shiftright Edsel-Delorean-Yugo-MarkIX collection? NOT!
I found a real low mileage beauty Mark IX in SF about a3 years ago during an appraisal....I couldn't help peddle that car for the widow for $10K no matter how I tried. I sent one client to look at it, and the brakes failed on the test drive. It also had timing chain noise, and a vicious oil leak. And this car was really a genuine low miles #2. Finally ended up on consignment, I think it did sell for around $12K after 8 months in a showroom, and it required some kind of financing! And I know money went into it.
So it was a bottom-feeder deal, not a collector car purchase if you ask me. It's a car for wannabees who don't know much about collector cars, if you want my very blunt opinion about it....LOL!
Stay away if you want to stay alive! Or better yet, buy a Mark II 3.8 with wires and overdrive. That's a 4-door Jag that is GOING SOMEWHERE!
Shifty
He had a book of receipts that looked like a Los Angeles phone book. And, the car looked good, if that's what you like...I sure don't!
Lots of cars were selling that day but the Jag went begging. I have no idea what his reserve was but as I recall, the bidding stalled around 5500.00. The guy was ashen faced and REALLY upset.
To each his own, I guess.