What is this thing worth?

Mr_Shiftright

I always thought CPI was always reliable in the "good" #3 category and often tested it against the real world with good results. I'd say it has improved in #2 values lately, which it needed to do badly.

Old Car Price Guide was laughable for many years, as was Manheim Gold ("Gold Book") but these are coming along nicely with fresh blood and better data. I like OCPG because they will value #6 and #5 cars--showing people how much it takes to restore a car!

I worked on reviving the Kelley "Early Car Edition" for about 5 years and I have to say I helped to shape it up into a credible publication---mostly expanding their universe of cars, and putting better values on exotic merchandise so that collectors would see them as a book that actually knew something. I corrected acres of bad nomenclature in that book.

NADA (which I think just took over Gold Book) is hit or miss---I think their "high retail" value on classics is simply too high (but not always---just usually). Their middle ranges are okay.

Some of the UK price guides are very good but of course they reflect the British love of British cars, so they have high values for some cars that we wouldn't pay to have towed.

Sports Car Market is very good but you really have to know how to read it. They use a "buy---sell" range, which is hard to translate into "condition". Their approach is something like this, I believe:

"Here is a range of values for basically what is a #2 car. The "buy" range is you on a lucky day doing diligent work---the "sell" range is you buying something at an auction against heavy bidding. Neither of these values represents a freshly restored car."

parm

Hi-Bid Website

A guy who apparently works for a restoration shop in CT specializing in Cadillacs claims he is the database administrator for this site which tracks auction results for the previous 12 months. Anyone familiar with it? While auction prices represent a "piece of the puzzle" in estimating a car's market value, when buying a car, I wouldn't base my decision on what to pay solely on auction results. Still, it would be an interesting tool to reference IF it's legit. Can't believe I've not heard of this website before now which kind of makes wonder if its real or a scam.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh it's real. I used to subscribe but gave it up. The problem is this, quite simply: without a detailed description of the car that was sold, the information is generally worthless. I think one is much better off tracking past sales on eBay, because then you get photos and at least a sense of what the car is. Hi-Bid gives you nothing but a number in most cases. Their "demo" suggests that all their listings have a paragraph of details, but they don't. Most don't in fact.

This might work for the casual shopper but I didn't find it worth the money for the professional appraiser. We need photos, details, VINs and ACCURACY.

Mr_Shiftright

Here's an Allante realistically priced, finally:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/1533004366.html

This is going to be an expensive clone when you're done:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/1532958020.html

Man is BONKERS on the price, about 3X value:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/cto/1532852987.html

Another Jaguar XJ6 owner beat to a pulp:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/1532416932.html

This half-done Buick might be worth his total receipts:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/1532343589.html

Still for sale, months later. What's it worth? I dunno:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ctd/1531997555.html

fintail

Skoda looks cool, but I worry about the appearance of the lower body.

If a shark is going to bring that much, it better be an M6.

560SLs still have no real collectible value...I can't see why an Allante would...amusing that like condition MBs are worth about 3x as much as their domestic competition.

euphonium

Looks just like the Skoda parked on the I 680 shoulder with emergency lights flashing while waiting for the tow truck last September.

Mr_Shiftright

Well I'm sure the Skoda dealer down the street took care of everything :P

There are some "wagons" worth collecting, to be sure (Nomads, Volvo 122 Amazons, Woodies, etc) but this isn't one of them.

"too small to be useful, too big to be fun".

tifighter

I've been watching that Skoda for awhile, just for fun. Its been on the BaT site a few times, and there are a few Skoda nuts there. But still no takers. It will be interesting to see what kind of person finally pulls the trigger...

euphonium

Volvo P1800 Wagon be an attractive investment?

Mr_Shiftright

I think a P1800E sportwagon could "hold its own" as an investment if you bought one already done by someone else and let them take the initial hit.

parm

1964Fleetwood

OK, I heard back from RM Auctions. Here's what they said about this '64 Fleetwood.

AACA National First Prize Winner 1994 Badge #27FO639
AACA Grand National Winner 1996
Cadillac LaSalle Club Senior Badge # 57. No year listed on this badge. I would assume it won its award somewhere between 1994 and 1996.
The car has been properly maintained and stored in an meticulous environment since restoration. Mileage reads 49,665. I am unsure if the mileage is documented. From the looks of the car I would assume the mileage to be correct.

Obviously, whatever restoration work that may have been done isn't particuarly fresh, so RM's $30-$40K estimate is ridiculously high. But, for someone who wants a nice driver collector car, I think the fact that its an older restoration works in the buyer's favor pricewise.

Comments welcome.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think it's even worth half what RM says it is, at least based on what I've read/found out about it. They really have a bit of nerve listed a 15 year old award. That's like Jeff Bagwell saying he just won NL MVP :P

parm

How 'bout putting it into a context I can better relate to - like John Havlichek being named the MVP of the NBA Finals . . . . . . . in 1974! :P

qbrozen

Double estimates seems to be the norm there. Just peruse the rest of the lots.

$30k for an Allante! Sign me up!

parm

'66 Mustang GT convert clone

I'm usually not one for clones, but this "recreation" does appeal to me. Looks to have been faithfully done. And kudos for going with a correct Pony interior which includes the proper interior door panels. While the engine looks to be well detailed, it kind of got left behnd on the project build list - which begs the question: If you're going to this length to create a GT, why stick with the 2bbl???? Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to see a cheap looking chrome air cleaner or yellow spark plug wires under the hood, but given the freedom with a project like this, why not recreate a K-Code or at least go with a carb set up that's more "GT-like" and less like a secretary's stripped down coupe. Please tell me a 2bbl wasn't available on a '66 GT for God's sake. I used to know the answer to this, but I'm too lazy to pull out my Mustang reference books. :P

Asking price is $34,500 or $36,000 if you opt for the dealer's 100-point inspection & "correction of all deficiencies". Really? Would that include rebuilding a tranny? LOL!

So, "what's this thing worth"?

Mr_Shiftright

Seems like a very nice car. There's really not that much difference in value between a regular convertible and a GT unless it's a 4-speed version---so in the real world of January 2010, I'd say $27,500 to $30,000 is all the money if it's as nice at it appears.

parm

Not that much difference in value between a GT and a non-GT? Really?? That's surprising.

How much additional value would a 4 speed add to this car?

texases

That is a nice '66, and I also think the GTs had the 4 bbl, but I'm not near my books, either. Here's my problem - every time I think about getting a (much) better version of my first car, like this, I then think 'why not get the new '11 GT w/400+ hp, and everything else that makes it fun to drive for about the same $$'? I know, too rational. :confuse:

Here's the new engine

Mr_Shiftright

a 4-speed would probably add 20% value.

My opinion on what to buy would be a compromise....take a vintage Mustang convertible and add tasteful updates, like a fuel-injected 5.0, Tremec 5-speed, and some things to make the pig handle and stop. On the outside, you wouldn't even notice, but in fact you've made the car way more pleasant to drive. True it wouldn't be a "new" Mustang, but then it wouldn't be depreciating like a rock either year after year.

The new Mustang buyer wins in the beginning, but you win in the end. :P

These old Mustangs are so plentiful that I don't see any harm in modifying one.

texases

"The new Mustang buyer wins in the beginning, but you win in the end."

True, as long as you don't get hit there... :surprise:

Mr_Shiftright

Ah, well, ships are safe in harbor but that's not what ships are for.

(I'm so poetic today for some reason.... :shades:

euphonium

2bbl was never included in the factory GT option. The GT could have one of two engines: "A" = 4bbl and the "K" = 4bbl with solid lifters. The "A" engine advertised 225 hp while the "K" went for 271 hp. Factory GT's were with the standard interior or the Interior Decor Group, aka Pony interior. In this particular case, it's another example of there being more GT's today than what the factories made. The asking price is so high, any offer over 25,000 would be to the sellers glory. In this down market, the pseudo GT should go for around Twenty cash. My perspective is experience around the NW Mustang shows over the last 10 years. 6RO7A169929

jeff_the_chef

I too can confirm the website is legit and I find it very useful, it's been around for atleast 10 years, I saw their booth at Barrett-Jackson. They do have condition grades on all the cars (1-5) and the prices themselves really dictate what the car was. I use it to establish a range (hi-lo) if i know what the best one in the world to cross the blocks sold for in the last twelve months I can find the value of the car I am appraising from there. What I like about it most is they have the most results (over 160,000 last time I checked) and they are actual recorded sales or "Hi-Bids" which amounts to the same thing as we know it's not the seller that gets to dictate car values, the buyers do. The results list cars from the the turn of the century and before which no traditional value guide does. It's not perfect for sure and I do use other resourses, but to get really up to date actual sale prices from last week I find it most useful. I can live without the photos which as they generally show me nothing. They were offering a free trial so you can test it out which is good but it's only $49 a year which is comparable to other guides. The ebay thing is useful also but there is no way to know if the actually sold on eBay or who the buyer was. So while as far as eBay is concerned the car sold, the deal may not have actually gone through after the auction was over. Also, eveyone knows that if a car doesn't reach what the selller really wants for it and he had it listed no reserve, he'll have his brother-in-law or whoever put a bid in to win it so he doesn't have to give to away. So again, it's useful but not perfect.

Just my two cents

Jeff

PS: The same company that owns www.Hi-Bid.com also owns www.AutomobileInspections.com I think.

Mr_Shiftright

eBay auctions offer you much better descriptions. The Hi-Bid ratings are erratic and irrational, it seems to me, and carelessly done. Many of their listings have no descriptions whatsoever. Auction results without descriptions are, to me anyway, useless.

Further, they often do not differentiate models. You have no idea if the "69 Chevelle" is a hardtop or a coupe or what engine and trans is in it, or if it is stock or modified.

Hi-Bid can be useful, but there's a lot of junk in there, too.

Perhaps you're right, you need 2 or 3 services.

Also I often need historical data, which Hi-Bid doesn't offer

parm

My opinion on what to buy would be a compromise....take a vintage Mustang convertible and add tasteful updates, . . . .

You mean something like this? '66 Mustang resto-mod This car is available from the same Mustang dealer and they're asking $79,500. Whoa! Sound sounds kind of steep to me for this one. Do these things really sell for this much??? Updating a classic Mustang is fine and dandy, until you go to sell it. Then, you better hope you find a buyer with the same taste as you.

texases

Re that '66 convert - I didn't see any mention of reinforcing the body. Those things were flexi-flyers, I don't know that more power and cornering forces would help. I'd either go with an original, or give me a 2011 convert GT, and forget about all the oddball updates on that resto-mod. Neither here nor there.

euphonium

Typical example of another way to spell "Karnival".

In my experience these things really don'tsell for this much???

Its condition is to be admired, but 80 grand could be applied to a much better value.

Mr_Shiftright

Hard to say what it's worth---it's worth what someone will pay for it in a public arena.

The magazine articles help some.

I would think that for 80 grand it would have a custom frame and far more goodies than it does.

My guess is more like $50K.

omarman

That '66 Mustang restomod looks like fun but it's hard to pin down. In a
couple of pics, the car clearly has clutch and brake pedals while in other
pics there's just a brake pedal.

Where the clutch/brake pedals are seen there's no paddle shifter on the
steering column. Those pics show a cleaner interior than the others with the
automatic shifter.

And in the close up of the automatic shifter, there's a strange hole in the
console with some black cables visible on the carpet below.

Maybe it's a mixed collection of shots taken during the build and the
sorting out process. Wonder which pics reflect the condition it's in today and if the car is completely finished, sorted, and detailed.

Mr_Shiftright

You know, I didn't look too closely at the photos first time around---I think I was too generous at $50K. Parts of this car look OLD, as if the restoration took place some time ago. If the seller is too lazy to detail the car, I don't see how they could expect show-car money for it.

I'm thinking now that this car is *seriously overpriced*. I'd guessimate, based on photos, originality, etc., that about 1/2 the asking price is correct.

parm

That being the case, an owner would be better off to buy a nicely restored and CORRECT '66 GT convertible - a 4spd if possible. That way, you know what you've got and the value should stay fairly stable.

Otherwise, if all you want to do is get your "yah-yahs" out, how about this for a lot less money? '89 Camaro convert for $12,950 This is more of a "used" car than it is a collectible, but it should drive infinitely better than a stock '66 Mustang. Assuming it really does have only 37K miles on it, is $12,950 a fair price? This car has the 5.0 V8. I think the biggest one available that year was the 5.7, but perhaps that was only in the Z28?. Also, the add does not mention having air conditioning - which seems kind of odd for a 1989 - even for a convertible.

fintail

Camaro seems steep. A Puget Sounds area lot has This 87 IROC convert for $5995...claimed 57K miles in a free used car rag. Maybe only 75% as nice, but it's an IROC - needed for full 80s effect...for half price.

Mr_Shiftright

Camaros are so shabbily built (no car worse?) that it's hard to justify that kind of money for it. It's not even an IROC.

I suppose if you could figure a way to epoxy back all the parts that are going to fall off it, and put black tape over the check engine light, you might offer $6500 for it.

hpmctorque

It's really too bad that Camaros were so poorly built, because, to my eyes, Chevy really got the styling right with the third generation ('82-'92) Camaro. I don't much care for the fourth generation's styling, plus they bulked it up too much.

The newest generation Camaro looks okay, but is way too big and heavy for my taste. I know they didn't have much choice, since they had to use an existing RWD platform, for cost reasons. If there's a next generation Camaro, I hope they trim it down to the size and weight of the first generation. Well, I guess that's wishful thinking in terms of the weight, but hopefully it'll be trimmer. And one more thing; the current dashboard has to go. It's garish.

andre1969

The ad might not mention a/c, but I see an a/c compressor in the under-hood shot. That thing on the right side of the engine at the front.

I remember back in middle school and high school, these Camaros and Firebirds were all the rage. By the late 80's and early 90's though, they were really losing their charm. Supposedly the 1993 F-body was a huge improvement, but I never liked the style. The Camaro looked like a big Geo, and in later years, a big Geo with a Concorde front-end, while the Firebird just got too bloated, and really went overboard with the ribs & wings.

parm

2002 Camaro SS SLP

Based on the comments above, I'm interested what everyone thinks of this one? It's an original 3,000-mile SS SLP 6-spd w/an LS1. That's great. They want $34,900 for it. That stinks.

Is the low mileage on a car this new kind of a "so what" factor? I wonder if a Chevy dealer got stuck with this and squirred it away driving it sparringly (a 1/4 mi at a time?? :P ) or maybe as a demo. That would explain the low mileage. Most of the SLP's I've seen have been convertibles with SS stripping. The fact that this one has neither might explain my theory.

Again, for about the same money, you'd get a very nice '66 Mustang convertible. Which would you rather have and is this '02 Camaro really worth this much?

texases

I think I'd rather have this for my $35k.

Mr_Shiftright

A very "so what"? factor. I see these all the time being advertised, some with even less miles. I found two under 1,000 miles in a search just now.

In today's economy if you are hot for an ultra-ultra low miles SLP, you shouldn't have to spend more than $22,000 or so, and if you are willing to bear the tragedy of say 20,000 to 30,000 miles, you are already well under $20,000. With 40,000 miles, you should be able to grab one for $15,000 or less.

So, who pays $20,000 extra for 40,000 miles on an 90s Camaro? Somebody who isn't thinking too straight I guess.

Collectible? Yeah, kinda sorta maybe someday far away.

Worth paying top dollar and stashing in your garage for another 30 years?

NAH

euphonium

The only market for this would be around Corvallis, OR.

The Black Vette is a much better suggestion for the $.

As for a 66 Mustang GT softtop, there are a lot of them around for less than 30K.
Come Summer they will go for up to 35K around here, NW.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah at least the Vette won't squeak and rattle and you don't have to watch the dashboard jump from side to side when you hit a bump.

parm

1964 Catalina 2+2 convert

Hope that link works. You might have to register on this site to see all the photos. Takes all of 15 seconds and it's worth it. Here's a '64 Pontiac 2+2 4-speed convertible that's being offered without a reserve at the Gooding auction in Scottsdale. Pre-bid estimate is $70K-$80K. Looks like a nice one to me. 22,000 original miles? I don't care if they're documented or not, I WANT THIS CAR! Now, where'd I put that winning lottery ticket . . . . . . . . .

Mr_Shiftright

Hmmm....Gooding is certainly optimistic....of course, they would have no ulterior motive here :P

It's not a 3X2v tri-power and with 22K exactly what are you supposed to do with it? Pay double the going price so that you put it behind velvet ropes and brag about the low miles (that's going to get old) or drive it and depreciate your investment rapidly?

I'm thinkin' about $40,000 to $45,000 is all the money here, which includes a healthy premium for ultra-low miles. She's not a 3X2, she's not a 421 and she's not a Bonneville-----3 premium items Gooding seems to have discounted.

euphonium

$40k is rather generous as, IMO, this would go for around $25k at Mecum.

parm

Well, it IS a 2+2 which may be just trim-related pieces, but so were most packages like RS, SS, etc. 2+2 convertibles aren't a dime a dozen. I think I've seen more 4-speed Bonnevilles for sale than I have 2+2 converts. Yeah, Gooding's pre-bid estimate is pretty optimistic. No argument there.

While it's not a tri-carb motor, the write-up on this includes the following: In addition, this particular car was originally specified with an upgraded four-barrel 306 bhp V-8 engine with 10.5:1 compression – an option that found its way onto relatively few Pontiacs during 1964. That's kind of vague if you ask me. Can anyone interpret that? What's the big deal here? A 4bbl vs. a standard 2bbl? I was thinking a V8 came standard with all 2+2's. Are they saying this car was ordered with a higher-compression version or something? Does this engine make it a rare beast, or not? I'm guessing not.

Still, having said all of that, if you're going to drive this, I'd rather not have the tri-carb set up as I think it would be a maintenance hassle. Three duces are cool to look at with the hood up at a cruise-in, but it's hard enough today to find a mechanic who can work on a car with 1 carb, let alone 3.

Mr_Shiftright

You're right but you have to factor in, I think, two things.

One the ultra low mileage premium, and two, the fact that people normally pay 20% more at an auction than a car is worth. Proof? Try and sell it the next day for the same amount you paid at the auction.

Not possible because there are buyer and seller fees and transportation costs.

So if we took the "correct" price of $25K, added $5000 for "auction fever" and 15% in fees and $1000 in transportation, there you go!!

andre1969

That's kind of vague if you ask me. Can anyone interpret that? What's the big deal here? A 4bbl vs. a standard 2bbl? I was thinking a V8 came standard with all 2+2's. Are they saying this car was ordered with a higher-compression version or something? Does this engine make it a rare beast, or not? I'm guessing not.

I'm getting this info from Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt. Anyway....

In 1964, the Catalina 2+2 was just a trim package. It got you the bucket seats, center console, etc, but no engine upgrade. The 389 was the standard engine, and according to Wikipedia, it was a 2-bbl with 283 hp. The Tri-power was optional that year, bumping it to 330 hp, and the 421 was at the top, a 4-bbl with 320 hp, but more torque than the 389 tri-power. Wikipedia doesn't mention a 389 4bbl being offered in the 2+2, although I'm sure it was offered elsewhere. Probably standard in the Bonneville and Grand Prix.

In 1965, that's when the Catalina 2+2 got the 421 standard. It had a 4-bbl carb and 338 hp, but two Tri-Powers were offered, with 356 or 376 hp. The 376 hp is the one from the infamous Car and Driver test where they managed to get 0-60 in 3.9 seconds.

In 1964, Pontiac built about 8,000 2+2's, so compared to roughly 250,000 Catalinas, it was a fairly rare car. I guess if you got the Tri-Power or 421, it could be one exclusive beast. But not with just a 389 2-bbl, or even the 4-bbl.

Mr_Shiftright

Tri-power or 421 makes a HUGE difference in value. Gooding seems to have brushed this aside like it didn't matter.

It does, big time.

euphonium

That night, following auction, the barn burns & the car is ashes. Haggerty will laugh at items labeled "Auction Fever" , "Misc. Fees" & Transportation costs.
They will pay the ACV of $25k, but no more, because.............

euphonium

According to "Brief Passenger Car Data" printed by Ethyl Corp.

'64 Pontiac Catalina standard engine was 389, 2bbl carb, standard transmission.

The following optional engines are available.

BHP @ RPM Disp CR Carb Trans
267 4200 389 10.5 2bbl H or SM = Basic engine offered
230 4000 389 8.6 2bbl Hydramatic = The Economy "E" engine
283 4400 389 10.5 2bbl Syncromesh
303 4400 389 10.5 4bbl Hydramatic
306 4800 389 10.5 4bbl Syncromesh
330 4600 389 10.75 3-2bbl SM or HM
320 4400 421 10.5 4 bbl " "
350 4600 421 10.75 3-2bbl " "
370 5200 421 10.75 3-2bbl " "

4 Speedmanual transmission optional.

andre1969

Those compression ratios confuse me. Doesn't higher compression usually mean more hp? If so, 267 hp out of a 389-2bbl just seems kinda low. As a reference point, Chrysler's 361-2bbl got 265 hp with 9.0:1 compression, and 295 with 10.0:1. And even the old DeSoto 341-2bbl got 270 hp with 9.25:1.

And with those 10.5:1 compression ratios, I imagine you'd have to run some pretty high octane fuel, just to get that 267 hp?