What is this thing worth?

bobbybuchebobbybuche Member Posts: 16
ok two months ago i got ahold of a 1959 t-bird but its got a really rare option that ford added called a parade car which means it has a snap on leather top and behind the rear seats and before the trunk is made of fiberglass so you could sit on it during parades and not dent the metal. it only has 67000 miles and i am almost done restoring the engine but everything on the car is original matching numbers and its in great shape. i just cant find one for sale anywhere and ford wont get back up with me to tell me how few they made somebody please help me out on the price or if youre interested thanks.
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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Well you can't put a price on something that might not be real. So you'd have to document that this isn't just some person's customization. These kits were designed by Bud Kaufman in 1962 so unless you can access family records or in some way prove that this was a genuine Ford option, then the "value" would be a small add-on as a customization feature to the normal price of the car.

    If it were a provable documented prototype and had some presentation or show history, that could be very interesting and worth extra $$$.

    But without any hard evidence (photos, testimonials from the creators) etc., all you have is a customized car---so it might even be worth less than a normal '59 Bird.

    Basically you'd have to prove that it was some kind of show car used by Ford, and you'd have to have pix of the car doing that.
  • bobbybuchebobbybuche Member Posts: 16
    yeah i know what youre talking about youre getting mine confused with the landua package that bud made in 62 where a piece of fiberglass actually covered the rear seats mine goes from behind the rear seats to the trunk plus mine has stamping from ford on the underside of the sheet of fiberglass behind the carpet in the trunk but still the landua cover was quite rare since it made up i believe only 7 percent of the sales that year but thanks for trying you know more than most ever will
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Well maybe it was some kind of show car, that's possible.

    I can't address authenticity because I don't know--that's where you, the detective, comes in, but I can only tell you that without documents and photos you don't have anything to base value upon. Speculation and conjecture will not translate into value.

    Why don't you post a photo? You can link to your own photo site if you have one or you can upload photos to your own www.carspace.com page (which you create by joining Carspace.com) and then link your personal Carspace page to this forum.
  • bobbybuchebobbybuche Member Posts: 16
    yeah go to myspace if you want i have a few pic up my user name is rhodes.eric
  • olds_man69olds_man69 Member Posts: 2
    can anyone tell hjow many 1971 cutlass s wrer built with facoery 4 spd?
    what's it worth?
    olds_MAN69
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Is it just an S or is it a 442?

    Is is a coupe or convertible?

    If a 442 does it have the W30 option?

    If just a Cutlass S, what condition is it in, from #4 (runs but kinda shabby) to #3 really clean driver to #2 local show car quality to #1 show car.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,058
    Recent article talks about how prices look to be dropping for all but the top-level classics: Auction Downturn
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Lots of cars going to Europe right now.....LOTS.....
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 54,999
    I just got a copy of the British mag 'Classic & Sportscar' (for a fintail article and the free calendar), and there are tons of American ads in it, one from a dealer right in my backyard even.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,058
    What is it, about $1,000 to ship port to port? Not much when high$$ cars are concerned, weak $$ and all.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 54,999
    I think it might be a couple grand from west coast to UK, but that's not much with the pound being worth $2 and I am sure there is some kind of volume discount too.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 24,887
    I wonder if that means the bottom is going to fall out of those gas guzzling 70's behemoths that I love so much? I wonder if there will finally be some good deals at Carlisle this year?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    I can already see the bottom end of the market falling apart---the under 20K market, especially rods, project cars, old 4 doors from the 50s. LOTS of people are bailing out of their cars if they have "one too many". Prices are definitely dropping, but NOT on the high end stuff or the really nice restorations of interesting cars.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 54,999
    D'oh...looks like plans to find a nice prewar open MB or a Simplex to take on the Brighton run for 5K are never going to come true :P
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Has the law of supply and demand been repealed? I must be missing something, but if lots of old cars are being shipped to Europe, the supply of cars in the U.S. is declining. Assuming demand remains constant, reduced supply would normally put upward pressure on prices. If prices are declining it means that the demand is not constant, but, rather, that it's decreasing faster than the reduction in supply. As the adage says, one must never assume.

    With gasoline costing $6-$8 per gallon in Europe, who can afford to drive old Detroit iron? It would cost a couple of dollars just to back one of those carburated beasts down the driveway, with a cold engine and the choke wide open. On the other hand, if you only drive to a car show once or twice a year it wouldn't be a big deal.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,058
    Assuming demand remains constant

    That's what's changed - it sounds like the demand for second/third tier cars is dropping. Lots of hobby cars out there, ready to come on the market, but lots of the hobby money has evaporated.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    The Euros are not buying the low priced stuff---they are cherry-picking the nicer muscle cars or exotic European stuff we stole from them back when.

    So supply and demand is working as usual on the nicer items, but demand is slipping on lower end cars, projects, home-built rods, plain-jane cars, etc.

    I saw a really REALLY nice 4-door Chrysler go begging at $3,500. Nobody wants this stuff anymore it seems.

    People are unloading no doubt about it--but the Europeans can't take it all, and don't want it all, so prices will drop accordingly.

    As for the Europeans affording to drive these cars, they aren't being bought by guys hanging out in Munich beer halls. These buyers are affluent. The EU is going gangbusters right now. They own a larger percentage of the global marketplace than we do at the moment. A weak dollar has a lot of negative effects for us at home, but apparently good effects for classic car dealers shipping overseas (or anyone selling overseas actually).

    You have to think of the Euros shopping here and everything being sold at 25% off retail (for them). It's bargain day in the USA! :cry:
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I'll bet one thing few European and Asian buyers of old American cars think about is the salt exposure as the cars cross the pond. The resulting rust won't be evident right away, but the oxidation process begins - or rather, accelerates for those cars that are already corroded - the moment those cars are loaded on the ships.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    That is quite true, but you know, the Europeans are far more used to rust and much more skilled in dealing with it. They think nothing of cutting out rockers and replacing them almost as a maintenance item. And they have lots of skilled cheap labor from eastern Europe to fix these babies. They also don't over-restore cars like we do.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 24,887
    I saw a really REALLY nice 4-door Chrysler go begging at $3,500. Nobody wants this stuff anymore it seems.

    Ooh, that made my ears perk up. Andre wants details. :)

    Actually, for some twisted reason, I've been in the mood lately for a '57-58 DeSoto or Chrysler 4-door hardtop. I always thought these were pretty cars.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 54,999
    So many cars came over in the 60s and 70s - from England especially. I suspect a lot of them will go home, as I don't see the US dollar being fixed anytime soon.

    Even for common cars like fintails...if you look through the registers in German clubs, many are from the US.
  • parmparm Member Posts: 724
    Just to throw in my two cents, I can attest to the trend of the upper cars going overseas. This past Labor Day weekend, I attended the Kruse auction in Auburn, IN. An absolutely stunning '32 Duesenberg J Model (I mean, this thing was beautiful) sold for $1M to a guy on a cell phone. Who was on the other end of the line? The buyer, who was in England.

    http://www.kruse.com/results/detail.asp?CONSIGN=1058&MAKE=Duesenberg&AUC_CODE=AU- BFALL07&AUC_BREAD=Auburn%2C%20IN%202007&SEARCH_NAME=Duesenberg&YEAR=2007&RESULTS- =1&PAGE=1
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,058
    Thanks for the Kruse link. I don't know if this is typical, but I checked out the Dodge auctions, and the great majority of the 60's era cars went unsold. Maybe reality hasn't quite been accepted by the sellers.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Usually when the market slumps, sellers dig in and buyers dig in and somebody waits for someone else to blink. So we'll see who blinks first.
  • lolaclolac Member Posts: 1
    Could someone give me an estimate on the value of a 1989 Cadillac limousine, it has 6 doors and seats 9, the interior is velvet, the limo has 65,000 original miles and is in very, very good shape. It was used to transport families to gravesites during funerals..It is not a hearse. What do I do to find out its worth? No sites seem to list these. It cannot possibly be the only one out there! Any help will be appreciated.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 24,887
    I see those limos every once in awhile. They're nice cars. There was one for sale at one of the swap meets in Carlisle, PA last year. I remember somebody had put a little sticker on the back of one of the seats that said "Made in China". I thought that was amusing. ;)

    I imagine though, that it would be worth about the same as an equivalent condition sedan of similar vintage. While that Limo would have been a much more expensive car when new, there just isn't much demand for them used. They'll often get snatched up by livery companies, put into service, and then run into the ground, so there's some demand for them as business vehicles. But probably not once they get to a certain age. Then, on the vintage market, there's only so much demand for something like this. They take up a lot of storage space, are cumbersome to drive, and a lot of the unique trim parts are hard to find.

    You might want to try contacting a professional car club if you're interested in selling it. You'd have more of a target audience there. This site may be of help: http://www.professionalcar.org/
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Probably about $4,000 sounds right. Limos of this type are not easy to sell because of their space requirements, and they are too old to use for commercial purposes---so it's a very slim market. I certainly wouldn't give more than that for it regardless of condition.
  • xsaoxsao Member Posts: 2
    this baby has original everthing in like perfect condit. paint job and everything, and it only has 43,000 miles. The guy I got it from died and was like 90 years old, and he really cared about it.

    the thing is im 17 years old, and I know nothing about cars and I was wondering if someone could tell me how much it is worth, since it is a classic and all..

    oh yeah, and its 2 wheel drive, 2 door, no power steering or windows or locks, but yeah im sure you guys knew that....

    thanks!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 54,999
    I wouldn't call it a classic, but it is unusual to find a decent one, and if cared for they seem to last forever. I could see someone paying a few grand for it if it really is pristine.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Yeah I'm thinkin' the same thing--if it was really cherry, about $2,000.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I occasionally see one of those on the road. They are tiny. They seemed pretty normal-sized back in the day, but now a Civc dwarfs it in every dimension.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,058
    Checking Ebay, the guys have it - about $2,000 max, if that. The real interest seems to be in the big wheel 4x4s.
  • xsaoxsao Member Posts: 2
    thanks for the replies guys, Im just going to keep this, and mod it up. Its not worth me selling it for 2000, this truck will last me a long time....

    thanks!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 54,999
    That's a good way to look at it, it is a very useful vehicle. It'll never be worth a fortune, but someday it will be kind of a 'special interest' car - give it another 10-20 years.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    The February 25 issue of BARRON'S has an article entitled "4,000-Pound Weaklings", which suggests that "after years of boom, collectible-car prices are softening...No segment looks more vulnerable than baby boomers' beloved muscle cars."

    This isn't surprising, since prices of many asset classes have been declining. The exceptions are oil, precious metals and grains, but not classic cars.
  • burdawgburdawg Member Posts: 1,524
    It's the same for all big ticket non-essential items. At the recent boat show in LA, many of the vendors had 0 sales for the entire event, especially the high end custom builders.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,058
    Just like Florida condos...he's another piece from the Barron's article, about the gold standard in muscle cars, the Hemi 'Cuda:

    "For most of these big-engine Detroit machines from the 1960s and early 1970s, prices have fallen by 10% to 15% over the past two years, but for some, the damage has been far worse A 1971 Plymouth Barracuda, with a hemi engine, fetched $396,000 -- impressive, but about half of what one sold for in 2006."
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 207,907
    The bigger the bubble, the more damage done, when it pops...

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 54,999
    Serves the speculators right
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Well people woke up and finally said "Gee, it's a PLYMOUTH".

    Not like we are talking about a very rare Bentley Speed Six here.

    The rare old precious stuff that is eligible for historic events will maintain good value I think, but anything "modern", with rare exception, is going to take further hits for a while at least.

    It's still all about supply and demand, once you wipe out the speculators.

    I could see some cars never going down in value, because there will always be more people who want them then there are cars, no matter how bad the economy.

    Keep in mind that some people have so much money that the world could be besieged by plague, aliens, war and locusts and they'll still be all right. Then they will have everything and we will have nothing and then we'll have to eat them and start all over again. :P
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 24,887
    to the values of lesser cars that in recent years saw their values go up in value, as sort of a halo effect from their more desirable counterparts? For example, while the prices of '68-70 Mopar B-bodies with the Hemi and the 440-6 pack and such went through the roof, it also seemed like every clapped out 6-cyl Belevedere or Coronet 440 also went up, I guess partly with the hopes that someone might buy it to make a clone out of it.

    And then there were people who would have loved to have had a Hemi or 440 6-pack, but ended up settling for something more mundane. I'd imagine that as prices fall, the cars that rode on the coattails of these greats will end up falling even further.

    I wonder if there will be some really good deals as the Carlisle PA swap meets this year?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    There's always a lag in a falling market because sellers don't want to face the facts as quickly as buyers who see what's happening.

    Sellers think it'll blow over and buyers hold out for even more of a drop---so it's a question of who blinks first.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    Anyone have any idea about the rarity and worth of the following, or how I might find it out?

    All stock, all matching numbers
    1968 Camaro Convertible
    SS/RS
    TH400
    L34 396/350 HP
    12 bolt Posi.
    Tic Toc Tach
    Console Gauges
    AM Radio
    Remote controlled rear view mirrors
    Power steering/front disc brakes
    Tinted windshield
    Speed reminder - buzzes when you hit the pre set speed
    Butternut Yellow/black
    14" Rallye Wheels/7.75 x 14 red wall tires
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    The value will fluctuate widely depending on condition and on the degree of solid documentation that comes with the car. So first you'd have to tell us the car's "rating" (#1 being stunning show car trailered to all events, better than new, # a very VERY sharp local show quality car that might be driven on rare occasion, #2 a clean driver, #4, a decent car with a few needs that are obvious, #5 is rough but complete, not rusted or stripped, #6 a junker.

    Then we'd need to know documentation---As for documentation, the best things are a) build sheet b)protect-o-plate c) dealer window sticker. Without those you can never assign the highest values to a car.

    Also, the VIN tags have to have no suspicion whatsoever about them and all the parts should date-code correctly for top dollar cars.

    But if you want ballpark #s, you have to at least assess the car's overall condition. Without documents, the authenticity is always in doubt of course.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    I have the build sheet - found it under the front seat - bought the car used in April 1969 from Bresee Chevrolet, Syracuse, NY with 9800 miles on it - salesman's wife's car. I am the second owner. It is, I would say, #2/#3 local show quality/clean driver with 87,000 miles on it, although I have never shown it. Have kept it garaged and regularly maintained. Never in an accident. The usual Chevy repairs for a 1968 Camaro - new water pump, new alternator, new motor mounts with cable retainers, original paint always kept waxed and cleaned. All repairs done at dealer. Did regular maintenance myself - brake pads, oil changes, etc. No rust - I know - upstate NY? Always power washed the undercarriage and did not drive it in snow. Original convertible top and plastic rear window have been replaced.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Well it's always a wild guess without seeing the car, since how it looks is so vitally important, but I'd say ballpark maybe $45,000--$50,000.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonMember Posts: 20,338
    I didn't know they had to cable down the 396 engines?

    This soinds like one NICE car and it's certainly the right color too!
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    Began getting leaks in the bottom of the upper radiator hose. Could not figure out why. The alternator fan was below it by about 3-4". Called the dealer - said it sounded like a broken engine mount - out it in gear and gently step on the gas with the brake on. OK - the engine practically leapt out of the engine compartment!

    Yeah, those Camaros were recalled for bad engine mounts and the "solution" was to install cables around the existing mounts - including the new one I had installed.
    Some cars had had the throttle cable stick open and the cars crash - thus the recall.

    It is a very nice car - has had its share of annoyances (cooling system and transmission) and today's cars are far superior in engineering, suspension, steering, etc. Despite the fact that Toyota Camry V6s are equal to it in acceleration, there is still something about that old big block roar, that Quadrajet sucking in through its secondaries, and the neck snapping downshifting of the TH that no Camry can ever duplicate. Plus its being a convertible and the wind whipping through the hair. The car stickered for $4451 in 1968. I paid $2700 for it in April 1969 with 9800 miles on it. Drove it through law school and then later on it became a weekend car only. Glad I kept it! I think it is pretty rare - SS/RS combo, TH400, 350HP engine, convertible, and documented second owner.
  • ljgbjgljgbjg Member Posts: 374
    I probably need to have it professionally appraised for insurance purposes and otherwise. I see rebuilds, ss clones, non-number matching big block convertibles going for the figure you mention. Nickey Chevrolet has a 1969 L78 4 speed SS with factory AM/FM Stereo Multiplex, but no RS and no rallye wheels for $200,000 with build sheet. Like I said - there are lots of clones out there with 396 engines, but not with 12 bolt posi., or not longer pure stock, so the cars never had the 396 originally. All 396 engined cars with posi came with 12 bolt rear axles. True 396 Super Sports had special hoods with the "vents" sectioned into 8 squares - 327 engined SS cars came with simple ribbed "vents".
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    the numbers I gave you are pretty good. People can ask whatever they want---that's not the market value. Remember there is a BIG difference in price between a #3 car and a nut and bolt rotisserie restoration using all NOS parts. Also an L78 and a 4-speed and a 1969 model year all bring more money than your car, so there's an additional 30% add-on right there for those three things. Nickey Chevrolet has a constitutional right to ask double the car's value if they wish.
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