What is this thing worth?

Mr_Shiftright

That's a 2005 price guide but this car hasn't changed much in those 4 years.

lemko

Shoot! A 1980 Malibu Sport coupe DOES have the same roofline as that Ferrari!

fintail

1974 Ferrari 365 GT4 2+2 ...not a bad resemblance in that roofline.

oregonboy

I have a buddy who is shopping for a vintage ride. He is currently interested in this local GTO: 1968 GTO

I know you can't really evaluate an older car without seeing it "in the flesh", but what do you think? And what does he need to watch out for?

It would undoubtedly be worth more if it was all original (aftermarket steering wheel ?!?) and had the Endura bumper. Is that rear wing correct?

Mr_Shiftright

Price seems to be approximately market correct. Given all the mods, I don't think he should focus on authenticity but rather the quality of the amateur work that was done, and of course, how the car drives.

ghulet

less than half-assed description, price about 4x what it's worth (for starters), weak pictures, mileage listed is seriously unbelievable, on a car with little interest from anyone:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1985-BMW_W0QQitemZ170413049212QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ- - US_Cars_Trucks?hash=item27ad68c57c

fintail

Look at the info in the "AutoCheck" box...doesn't bode well. :sick:

Mr_Shiftright

IF we presume that a) this is not a salvaged title and b) that the car looks magnificent from stem to stern----I'd say $3500 is max.

If salvage, but gorgeous, then $2000 is plenty.

318s are about the most unloved BMW there is IMO.

ghulet

Exactly......and as is the case with most eDreamers selling maybe-decent vehicles at pie-in-the-sky prices, you'd think the seller could be bothered spending more than five minutes of effort with both decent pictures and a more detailed, accurate description. No, buyers are expected to drool and bid, and a week and a half before Christmas. Sure, why not?

Mr_Shiftright

Shifty Sez: "market, or park it" .

texases

Re: the 318i - why put up with old BMW problems without getting a good one? The only old 3ers I'd want would have a 6, not a 4, under the hood. I'm sure you could get a nice older 325 for that kind of money!

Mr_Shiftright

318 engines of that era are very rough.

bhill2

And, if I may provide the coup-de-gras to the seller's fantasy, it's a 4-door.

kyfdx

I think that would make it the sedan - de - grace..

Mr_Shiftright

The market cannot and will not subsidize one's restoration costs dollar for dollar.

bhill2

I think that would make it the sedan - de - grace

kyfdx, your response disgusts me - because I didn't think of it first.

oregonboy

It's like the old joke: "How many doors does a chicken-coupe have?" :confuse:

Two.... If it had four, it would be a chicken-sedan. :sick:

parm

1964 Fleetwood

This car rolls across the auction block next month without a reserve. While I don’t recall ever seeing any 1964 Cadillac with a vinyl roof, this looks like a nice one – as evidenced by the awards it has garnered.

The awards give this car a provenance that exceed your typical run-of-the-mill ’64 Fleetwood and, I would think, contribute to its value. Anyone care to guess what this car will go for?

fintail

Looks like a nice car, not a bad color either.

I am pretty sure I have seen that style Fleetwood with a vinyl top in period ads.

Mr_Shiftright

I can't tell you what someone might pay for it in the emotional heat of an auction, but the actual value should be about $20,000 for this level of restoration. It's still a 4-door, after all.

ghulet

Very nice car, and cool color combination, but two things re: this example: the 'padded roof' (vinyl) was first available on the Fleetwood 60 Special in '63, thus a little more common in '64; sort of a no-big-deal. Second, in the dealer's blathering description, they claim production of 1870 units for this model, which is false; coincidentally, 1870 Eldorado Biarritz convertibles were produced for '64. Production for the Model 64-60M (Style number 6039M), aka Sixty-Special Fleetwood was 14550. A simple oversight, I'm sure.

Cool things about the '64: last year for fins, first year for the 429, Turbo-Hydramatic and Automatic Climate Control.

qbrozen

A "LIGHT" hit in the rear quarter!

Mr_Shiftright

Not too bad...I'm thinking about $18,000 in body damage. Probably an entire rear clip, new rear subframe, gas tank, bumpers and an entire paint job.

JUNKYARD :surprise:

euphonium

Part it out.

texases

Notice on the photo of the 'light' damage - the convertible cover's out of alignment...tack on several more thousand$$ to get that all straightened out... :sick:

euphonium

"One of only 1,870 examples produced" ??

So, why is the serial number 2,515?

Otherwise a very attractive motor car.

Mr_Shiftright

The seller is wrong---they made 14,550 of them, not really that "rare" at all.

All you are buying here is a restoration at .25 cents on the dollar. Which is okay, but you aren't buying rarity or even a good investment.

parm

Yup, I knew the production figure wasn't even close and was referring to the Eldorado when I read it. The write-up also refers to the rear wheel opening that was "sans skirt" in '64 for the Eldorado which obviously doesn't refer to the Fleetwood. Still, technically, the Eldorado and Fleetwood are in the same model "family" as opposed to the Fleetwood being in the Deville or Series 62 families. Whoever wrote the description pulled that from the Eldorado history which also explains the incorrect production.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I saw this car advertised earlier this year for another auction in California. There was to be an auction this past Spring or Summer in which all of the lots were from somebody's private collection. In that case, either this car didn't sell or it's being resold. But, I'm going from memory and I may be wrong (there's a first time for everything!). :P

For a Fleetwood, this color was fairly rare in '64. White, black and blue were more prevalent. This car also appears to have cruise control - which was not uncommon for a Fleetwood/Eldo, but fairly rare in the other models.

Mr_Shiftright

i didn't see AC listed, If it doesn't have AC, then I'm going to revise my estimate downward.

texases

They forgot to list it, I can see 'Air Conditioning' to the left of the steering wheel in one of the interior photos.

parm

It doesn't include A/C in the description, but the engine bay clearly shows the Frigidare compressor and the inteiror photos show the A/C vents. So yes, it looks like A/C is there. RM's bid estimate is $30K-$40K. I think $25K is all the money in the world for this car under the very best of circumstances - unless there are two guys in the room that day who just absolutely, positively have to have this car. In that case, the buyer better plan on hanging onto this car for a good long while. I'd happy to do that . . . . the hanging onto it part - not the paying too much for it part.

Mr_Shiftright

RM's estimate is crazy---but what's new? They always put a high estimate to make you think that you aren't foolish for bidding near that. But in this case, you would be. Even $25K strikes me as a grand slam home run for the seller. $25K is not impossible but it would be to the furthest reaches of the known solar system for a '64 Caddy 4-door HT.

euphonium

Just think of other classics available for $20,000.

Mr_Shiftright

Exactly --especially in 2009

67 Buick Skylark Convertible
Chrysler 300K coupe
66 Dodge Charger
Dodge Demon 340
Ferrari Mondial coupe
Fiat Dino coupe
63 T-Bird Coupe
Jaguar Mark IX saloon
Mazda RX-7 Twin Turbo
67-68 Ford Mustang convertible
71-73 Mustang convertible
Alfa Romeo 2600 Sprint Coupe

parm

As the resident Cadillac-freak (and as this Fleetwood's court-appointed attorney LOL!), let me offer this argument. OK, granted - your list of cars that could be had for $20K may have a wee bit more charisma. BUT, I contend that none of them, with the possible exception of the RX-7 (which is really just a used car and therefore not germane to this discussion) could be purchased for $20K if you wanted one in as nice of condition as this '64 Fleetwood. A comparably restored 67-68 Mustang convertible for $20K? I doubt it. Especially, if it's a GT or even any 8-cyl. Since we're talking about Cadillac's big mah-moo, it's not fair to compare it to a secretary's 6-cyl. stripped down Mustang convertible.

While the difference between a Fleetwood and one of the lessor Caddy sedans may not be huge value-wise, keep in mind we're not talking about a Series 62 here. As a general rule, a Fleetwood (at least this one) is fully loaded and Cadillac buyers pay a premium for things like A/C and cruise control.

My point is, you can’t consider alternative cars without also taking into consideration whether they are comparable with respect to condition.

Mr_Shiftright

I think with $20K in a suitcase I could get pretty nice examples of all of the cars on the list, and in many cases, comparable to the Fleetwood.

Besides all that, a car's value is not in direct relation to its "merit" as a car. It's in direct relation to a) how many people want one and b) how many are out there for sale.

for example of restored Mustang converts at $20K

http://cars-on-line.com/42436.html

http://www.diversionmotors.com/1968_Mustang.html

parm

Well, the red '70 appears to have been tarted up and I seriously doubt it's a real Boss 302 as the decal suggests (was a Boss 302 even available in a convertible?). However, the green '68 Mustang convertible does look appealing. Point taken. Man! I've never seen anyone better who can find comps to support their position.

Trust me, as an appraiser of commercial real estate, I couldn't agree more with your points that determine an assets desirability factor - if not its value in the market. I've always said that when buying a collector car, rule #1 "should" be to make sure it's a car that someone else would want. Having said that, there is no such thing as a "perfect" market and if this Fleetwood sells for more than $20-$25K then this premise will once again be proved.

But, rule #2 is to buy what you love - thereby diminishing the importance of rule #1. And, believe me, there is a market segment (which includes Yours Truly) that loves Cadillacs like this.

ghulet

I'm a huge fan of '60s Cadillacs, and Fleetwoods in particular (followed by other sedans; I'm not a big two-door guy in general). That example IS very nice, I just think both that the seller is likely dreaming if he's planning on getting north of $30k, or if he does get it, the buyer will either not care about the 'market value', or be really sorry at re-sale time.

parm

Oh definitely. $30K+ is delusional. But, like Shifty said, that $30-$40K estimate by RM is to make $20K seem like the deal of the century.

texases

"Besides all that, a car's value is not in direct relation to its "merit" as a car."

No reason applies here. If one really just wants a nice car for $20,000, one should buy a 5 year old whatever. So it's down to desire. A Caddy will appeal to a certain group, Mustang convertibles to another. But yes, watching some auctions, puffed up as they are, it seems that 20-25k can buy lots of neat, non-unique 60s-early 70s cars. I was surprised to see a nice, 1 owner '65 Riviera Gran Sport go for $30k, I think. Something with way more 'special' than most.

parm

After giving it some additional thought and at the risk of being accused of being a political backslider, I'm going to back pedal a bit. Earlier, I said that green '68 Mustang convertible was appealing, and it is. However, with regard to the '64 Fleetwood in question, let me quote from its description.

The car has won several awards, including an AACA Junior and Senior National First Prize Award, AACA Grand National Award and a Cadillac LaSalle Club national first place award with medallion.

While that '68 Mustang is pretty (though we can't see the underside), I don't see anything about it that would earn it an AACA award (let along multiple ones) - which goes to my point about an apples-to-apples comparison in terms of quality and condition.

Based on the limited information we know about this car, I think its fair to say this Fleetwood could be one of the best there is. Of course, even I recognize there is some degree of a "so what" factor associated with owning one of the best '64 Fleetwoods in existence. But, such provenance can't be overlooked either.

Mr_Shiftright

I checked AACA national awards 2009 through 2005 and the car isn't listed. So either it's a very old restoration or someone is fibbing. The seller has some 'splainin' to do.

jose27

Nice deal u got but i have no idea about it so can't comment on it.

euphonium

My experience at Mustang shows supports your values on the two Stangs. Sales price graphs for these are U shaped since the economy tanked and right now they are at the bottom of the U & will stay there for the next few years.

The Fleetwood looks great on paper, but when it won the national awards is to be confirmed before purchase.

Is this another case where the seller lists the price so damn high that some unsuspecting buyer will counter with a lower offer, which in reality, is still way too much to pay for the merchandise to begin with?

Mr_Shiftright

I would think that at this point in time, with so much pricing information out there, that the day of the google-eyed naive buyer of collectible cars, is just about over. Buyers set the market, not sellers. Auctions are good ways to get higher prices, because a buyer/bidder sometimes loses the cold sober stare of rationality--first off, you're in competition with other bidders, and secondly there's the auctioneer with the microphone tweaked up to 11, screaming "Are You All AWAKE out there?" and "You'll never see another one like this!" and "We sold one just like this for twice the price last year!" and the assistant "ring man" pointing at you to bid higher, and the drinks and the cameras and the whole catastrophe.

euphonium

Does Mecum provide booze?

Mr_Shiftright

I don't know, but it is an excellent lubricant for bidding machines. :P

parm

The plot on this Fleetwood thickens slightly. I posted on the Cadillac LaSalle Club message forum and, while it's not a concrete conformation, one of the members remembers a car identical to this receiving a CLC Senior award in 1992 or 1993. There can't be that many Seafoam Green (with a white padded top) 1964 Fleetwoods floating around in such nice condition. So, I'll go out on a limb and say this was the car. Therefore, if we can assume the restoration work was done prior to this award, then said restoration occurred 16-17 years ago. Does this help in estimating this car's value?

Mr_Shiftright

Well sure---it suggests that the car could still be very nice but no longer capable of winning an award at a national show. So the condition drops from #1 to #2 and maybe to $15,000--$16,000. If upon examination I saw things like scratched stainless trip, dull tail light lenses (crazed or faded) or some staining on the headliner or carpeting, or dings or pits on the instrumental panel chrome or bezels, I'd drop it down further.

parm

I let my subscription to CPI lapse a few years ago, right after Black Book got involved with it. Now, I see Hemmings has purchased/merged with the CPI price guide. Has Hemmings involvement changed the reliability of this publication?