What is this thing worth?

Mr_Shiftright

My book says those wheels were standard equipment on the 98.

I hope it's not a "real" museum car that's been sitting there for ages. That would be bad and I'd cut my bid by $5000.

texases

I'm thinking this is one of those consignment 'museums', just a fancy showroom. The one in Dallas had one of those fakey-doo pre-war MBs, like we just saw. Ugh...

parm

I've seen a bunch of Ods 98's of this era (the majority of which weren't for sale), and only a handful had the sport disc wheels. Most have hubcaps. Regardless, the sport discs are pretty cool. But, apparently, they don't attach to the car in the usual fashion. As a result, in many cases, they got chewed up in the hands of uninformed yard ape mechanics.

parm

. . . . . . . and your value conclusion on the '55 Coupe Deville?

Mr_Shiftright

Well for one thing I don't believe the mileage claim at all, so let's call the car a #2 minus---which might put it at about the same as the Olds '98.

Again, these photos are all rather low-res taken from a distance. If upon close inspection, we see a) marked up stainless trim b) dirty and worn underbelly, then the prices change dramatically.

I am suspecting that the camera is deliberately kept away from areas of the car. You'll notice that in the very FEW instances when the camera is up close on the Cadillac (the seat, the driver's door panel, and the engine), we see defects in each case.

You can take any old "driver quality" car, shine up the chrome, give it a decent paint job, shampoo the interior and stand 15 feet away with a camera and it's gonna look pretty good. It's the difficult parts that we pay attention to---the engine bay, the underbelly and the small delicate trim pieces, and the window and door seals.

parm

1964 Ford Falcon Sprint sorry, you'll need to scroll about half way down

Never really paid that much attention to Falcon's, but this one looks like a cute little car. The top goes down and the engine was rebuilt by a builder apparently of some renown - and it's a 4-speed. That's a win-win-win. Even if you paid the full $19,500 asking price, that'd still be cheaper than a Mustang GT convertible (of course, you'd be the proud owner of a Falcon too). So, what's a fair price for this Falcon?

Mr_Shiftright

Well it's hard to price it without knowing more. Seems like they did some mods for sure, and given that this is a relatively rare car, that probably was not a good idea. I'd say the price, if we take the car at its face value, is "market retail correct".

omarman

$20K looks like mustang money to me though. Not K code, GT mustang money but that's really not a good comp for the falcon sprint.

Looking at the link, the vehicle ID number decodes a '64 sprint convertible, lorain assembly, with a base 260/2V.

The interior shows what looks like a factory sprint tach but the pics don't pick up all the detail. The 4-speed shifter doesn't look stock and then there is the bench seat.

Didn't all sprint convertibles come with bucket seats and console? Anyone know for sure?

If the engine is fresh and well sorted then it's worth a premium over the challenger V8. But up to $20k? For that money I'd still shop mustang even if all checked out legit for the falcon sprint.

euphonium

Oregon has a 12% unemployment rate, but Memory Motors ignores that as their asking prices have been traditionally stubborn. Same is true of the Portland Jaguar dealer.

fintail

I think you are right about bench vs bucket seats. Every Sprint I recall seeing had buckets and a console.

Right before I got my license and I was looking for a car, there was a 63 Sprint hardtop in town that I really wanted. Solid original car, red on red, 260, languishing away in a carport - owner wouldn't part with it as he was "saving it for his (middle aged) son" who of course couldn't care less about the car. A few years later the old guy passed on and the car vanished. I remember it had a buckets/console and cool deluxe hubcaps, which IMO that convertible needs too.

fintail

Ah yeah Monte Shelton - some of his ebay offerings are ridiculous.

That dealer with the Falcon has a very pretty Adenauer hardtop - but the engine is detailed poorly. If you are going to ask 40K for a car, why not spend a few hundred more and do it right?

Mr_Shiftright

I fear that 40K for an Adenauer is merely the down payment on the car. It had better be super nice for that kind of money. Bring your bond-o-meter. Engine bay is messy, wood looks dull, paint looks thick---is that interior REALLY correct?

fintail

I think it's a pretty car - good color, correct upholstery...but the passenger door looks like it fits odd, engine is dirty and it has a no-name battery...so one would want give it a good inspection indeed.

Did hardtop cars have glossy wood? I am pretty certain the interior is correct, MB used that pattern from the 50s through the 90s, very expensive to replace - although most cars had leather.

parm

What is up this new system??? I've tried to compose a message 3-4 times and invariably my text gets put into some sort of "edit box" that I can't get rid of. When I try to "post" or "preview" it wipes out my message. What am I doing wrong???

omarman

Today is my first time back at posting since the redesign although I've been reading the Tell Us What You Think topic all along.

Seems many have had some posting issues when using IE although others like I haven't had problems with firefox.

parm

After minutes of exhaustive research, it would appear that bucket seats were standard on a Falcon Spirit 4-speed. But, apparently you could special order a bench seat. I've seen photos of other 4-speed Falcons.with a bench seat - though, I would think bucket seats would be the way to go.

Personally, I like the upgraded shifter along with the fact that the motor has been "breathed on" a bit. I don't consider a '65 Falcon as being super collectible, so "no harm, no foul" here for me. It's not like somebody removed the split window on a '63 Stingray.

I've visited Memory Lane's website a lot and didn't think their prices were too outrageous - at least compared to other dealers.

hpmctorque

I've lost some messages too. I prefered the previous system.

houdini1

Since the Falcon preceded the Mustang, I always figured that all the Mustangs were Falcons in Mustang clothes !!

texases

That's pretty much correct, the Mustang chassis was heavily based on the Falcon.

parm

Yes, my "Mustang in a Falcon's clothing" comment was meant to be a humorous play on words.

explorerx4

Same thing as most Lexus are Camry's in somewhat better clothing.

gsemike

Besides the ES300 and RX, I don't think that any other Lexuses share much of anything with a Camry. Aren't they all rear wheel drive?

texases

You're right about the Camry. In addition, the GX is a modified 4Runner, and the LX is a modied Landcruiser, and the old SC300 was a (heavily) modified Supra, I think. The HS is based on the Toyota Avensis, I think (not just a spiffed up Prius).

parm

1964 Olds 98 convertible

I may have posted this car before. But, I'd like to get some fresh opinions as to what this this Olds is worth. I've been in touch with the seller (a dealer). I can buy it for $25K. Before anyone chokes, please know I would be owning it for the long haul. This car really does look nice. Apparently, the previous owner was a real Oldsmobile nut.

My plan is to go see it next week. I'm about 5 hours away. In talking to the salesman, he said they bought it in the car corral at the Fall '10 Auburn Indiana auction. Said it took him all of 2 minutes to decide to buy it - it's that nice. They saw the car drive in on Thursday and pretty much bought it on the spot. Obviously, $25K is more than what the dealer paid which I'm trying not to think about. What's worse, I WAS AT THIS AUCTION. But, I didn't make it up there until Saturday and the car was already on its way to St. Louis in an enclosed Passport hauler by then. So yes, I know $25K isn't a bargain - not even close. I forget what the CPI guide says, but its way less. But, after looking at what nice cars have sold for over the last several years, I haven't found CPI to be that accurate. Sometimes pretty close, but usually CPI shows less.

Call me brain-washed, but I've seen plently of cars like this routinely sell on the televised auctions for easily this much. And, I'm referring more to Mecum which I think is somewhat more realistic in their auction prices. At Auburn, I saw a '63 Lincoln Cont. convertible every bit as nice (I drooled over it so much I needed an I-V to replace my fluids) as this '64 Olds sell for $35K (not including buyer's commission). Since then, I've seen others sell for more. Admittedly, a Lincoln SHOULD sell for more. But, at least it gives me some first-hand frame of reference I can identify with.

When I'm in St. Louis with my checkbook in hand, maybe I can talk them down a little. But, out of curiosity, I thought I'd put this out there for the group so I can see what size of a straight-jacket I would need to be fitted for if I say "yes" to $25K.

Gentlemen, the floor is yours . . . . . .

Mr_Shiftright

Well if it's the car of your dreams, then what we think is irrelevant. Someday in the future it probably will be worth $25K. Right now it's worth about $19K.

Besides you haven't looked it over. You may see things that'll sober you up.

For $25K I would expect a 95-98 point car, and that ain't easy.

garv214

Hey, the car is really worth what you want to pay for it. If you think it is worth $25K, then that is it's value.

If this is truly the car of your dreams (...and it is not putting a financial burden on you or your family...) I'd say go for it. Life is short, enjoy the time while you are here.

Now, as Shifty has said, you haven't seen the car in person yet. Chances are that after you see it in person and drive it, it's "true" value will be known.

Best of luck to you.

texases

Paying a small premium (and 25% is pretty small) for a car you REALLY want is no problem to me. Had you said $40k (and you wouldn't have), then I'd question your sanity.

Seems like $25k is a pretty common price for interesting cars in great condition.

Mr_Shiftright

Problem is....(how can I say this discreetly?) an Olds 98 isn't all that interesting a car to me. Now if it were a 4-4-2, wellllll............

texases

I'm pretty generous with my 'interesting' label - 2-door hardtop or convertible in excellent condition will do it for me.

Wouldn't you think a 4-4-2 in the same condition as that 98 would go for more than $25k?

parm

Yeah. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more.

parm

Whether it's an Olds 98, a Buick Electra 225, a Cadillac Deville, a Pontiac Bonneville, etc. (all convertibles), I'm drawn to these big parade floats. It's just the way I'm wired. Specifically with the '64 Olds 98 (convert), you just don't see that many, and I like that. When is the last time you saw one in person? Even on the internet, they're pretty rare. There's a baby blue one for sale at another well-known midwestern classic car dealer (for around $22K I think), but it's not as nice or as well-equipped as the white one with red interior. Like Shifty has said before, you can't swing a cat without hitting a Nova, Camaro, Mustang or a Chevelle (include a 4-4-2 on that list too - ebay alone is lousy with them).

Would I thoroughly enjoy a 1967 thru '70 Corvette? Hell yes! However, we're talking significantly more money for one of those - more than I can afford now anyway. and, again, they're way more prevalent than a '64 Olds 98 convertible.

Mr_Shiftright

Well then, if you like them big floaties, why not choose a Buick or Cadillac? They will hold their value better. The Electra 225 is a fine looking car, and the mid 60s Cadillacs will cost you no more than that Olds.

parm

You probably don't recall, but I've been those roads before. About 10 years ago, I tried to buy a '66 Electra convert. This car was in Rochester NY and was a Buick Club of America award winning car. So, it was very nice. I saw it in person when their national meet was here in Indiana. Long story, short - I paid for an appraisal by an appraiser the seller recommended. The seller wanted $15K-$16K. I told him I thought it was worth closer to $10K. Well, the appraisal came in at $11,500. I went up to $13K. But, the seller was an old coot who couldn't fathom his car wasn't worth as much as he thought . . . . . . go figure! He wouldn't budge and by that time I was fed up and walked away. It eventually sold. I had similar situations with 1962-1966 Cadillacs. About 8-9 years ago, I had a "crush" on a 1965 Olds 98 (burgundy with black interior) convertible with the same sport disc wheels. It was offered by a well-known dealer in Iowa who wanted $19K. The prevailing thought in this group was that this car was worth $12K max. Apparently, someone thought it was worth closer to $19K because it eventually sold.

Trust me, I'd be very happy with this Olds 98. I scour the market and I find more Electras and Devilles. While the whole supply & demand thing (indicating that demand for Electras and Deville convertibles might be greater) isn't wasted on me, I like the styling of the '64 Olds 98. I used to be absolutely "gah-gah" over Cadillacs, but their fins have kind of lost their allure on me. As an arm chair collector, I've owned several cars in my head over the years. In that time, my tastes have evolved.

I've seen these GM parade float convertibles (all very nice ones) go/sell from $15K to $19K and now $25K. Yes, $25K might be high. And, while I can cite a mountain of documentation that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that prices have stabilized, if not fallen, in recent years - my own experience suggests there will continue to be a market for these cars and the nice ones bring the money.

andre1969

I think I like that 98 simply because it's NOT an Electra or Caddy. They sold a lot more Electras and Cadillac convertibles than they did 98's, so it's definitely a rarer sight. I always liked the early/mid 60's big Oldsmobile style, although it does bear a bit of a resemblance to a Lincoln in some years.

hoosiergrandad

My brother-in -law's Daddy bought him a new metallic blue Jetstar I that I got to ride in now and then. It was rapid transit with a capital R.....370 hp, I think. THAT'S the Olds I would drool over.

parm

OK, I went to St. Louis to inspect this Olds 98. We had agreed on a tentative price of $25K and I fully intended to buy the car that day. But, I didn't. While it was pretty and had a lot of nice things going for it (T-3 headlights, nice interior, Olds sport disc wheels which are rare, A/C, etc.), it had some niggling issues that bothered me. For brevity sake, I won't itemize each little issue, but as examples, the power top didn't work, the wiper knob came off in my hand and the A/C & heater system was anemic at best. Also, when down, the door windows shook/rattled terribly when you shut the door. I looked at a '62 Eldorado once and the windows were bank-vault solid when the doors shut. So, I know this Olds could've been better on that score. In a nutshell, it seemed like a car that had been spitpolished in recent years for a reason other than to own. I absolutely hate the expression of a polished t#rd and this car was better than that - still, it left me with that feeling. The previous owner was supposedly an "Olds nut", but he owned it for only a couple of years and in that time had about $1,300 of work done to the transmission along with some other hefty repairs such as a new top. It just seemed to me that if this car was actually as nice as it looked, then a true Olds aficionado would've held onto it for dear life - especially after putting that much money into it. Call it a hunch. Plus, the driving experience behind the wheel just didn't "do it" for me. What's that you say? "Hey, Parm it's a 47 year old car you nincompoop!" Yup, I noticed that. Maybe it drove as well as it should have. But, it just seemed to labor more than it should. The engine had been rebuilt several years ago and it didn't smoke. But, it didn't respond like I thought it should.

Bottom line. If that car was in my garage, I couldn't envision me being giddy about it or being excited to drive it. And, I have to be absolultely "gah-gah" for a car before I say "yes". Secondly, to me, it was a $20K car. Actually, that's what the dealer said they paid for it at the '10 Auburn car corral (supposedly, the seller wanted $25K). I doubt this dealer paid that much because $5K doesn't sound like much of a profit given all they had done to it (shipped to St. Louis, detailed it, removed some small dents they said). But, I didn't tell them that. I just said, "if you paid $20K then I think you paid too much because I think it's only worth $20K right now." He wouldn't budge from $25K, so there you go.

The salesman promised they would fix the power top (the top motor actually did make noise) and fix the heater. And, he was willing to throw in a couple months of storage fees until Spring. But, at that point, price was actually a secondary issue. As much as I wanted the car when I walked in, it just didn't seem like a good idea once I saw it in person and drove it. Actually, when I finally decided "no thanks", I don't know who was more shocked, the saleman or me! :confuse:

texases

Thats too bad. Let's see, a top-dollar convertible (for the model/year) where the top doesn't work... :surprise:

Sounds like you made the right decision.

qbrozen

Its been a long time, but what was the consensus here? $18k?

Mr_Shiftright

I'd hit it at about $16.5K with this new info. I think I mentioned before, it was my opinion that only a near show-quality car would be worth $25K, and so think about what it would take to get to THERE from HERE. I think the dealer either overpaid or is greedy and that's why this car is still sitting. Also it's a 98, not the most desirable model, so you can't price it like it was Starfire or a 4-4-2.

Pricing is ultimately decided by the buyer, and the price is set by supply and demand. So apparently everybody who wanted a 98 convertible at $$20K ++ now has one, or no one wants to pay that.

That car should "move out smartly". Something must be wrong with the engine as well.

The fact that the dealer tried to even *sell it* with a convertible top not working speaks volumes.

qbrozen

I don't recall if I said $18k or not. I believe so. In any case, I always take "niggly" things into account when pricing via the internet. So I don't know if I'd change my price too much. It depends on that top issue. Without knowing what's wrong, yeah, I'd probably agree with you that $17k'ish is more the number now. It I were buying and could diagnose on the spot .... who knows? Could still be $18k.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd have to see what it looked like underneath to really assess the car accurately. Putting a car on the lift is a sure-fire way to tell if you have a solid restoration or some "tarted up" old car with every bushing and seal being old and tired under there.

parm

$17,000, $18,000, $20,000 or $25,000 for that '64 Olds 98? Let me suggest that "market value" - at least, in fairly precise terms, is irrelevant once a collector car gets in the hands of a dealer. Now, let me preface this by saying I appraise commercial real estate for living - and have for 20 years (that's all I do) and my clients seem to think I'm pretty good at it. So, the terms of market value, sale comps and buyers determining value are more than just concepts to me. They represent my livelihood. But, I'm coming to learn that these basic tenants have little to do wth what someone would have to pay for a collector car offered by a dealer. Here's my point.

A dealer puts a ridiculously high price on a car (based on his purchase price + a hideous profit margin) and will come down a little as a show of good faith to still be able to sell at a price that is still strong. Folks do this with real estate too. But, the difference is that in real estate, the seller will usually (or can) eventually drop the price down to a level that becomes appealing &/or economicaly feasible for a buyer/developer. Not saying this happens every time, but once a collector car dealer has sat on a car long enough (usually 1 year or more), they'll take it to Mecum, B-J or RM, etc. and will sell it for a price that (in a lot of cases) is still in excess of it's "market value" - which tends to be the rule in an auction enviornment. So, the auction provides a profitable exit strategy to a dealer. Yes, real estate can sell at auction too, but it's my experience that that by then, the price has already been dropped down to its disposition/liquidation value as deterimined by the market.

Compounding this issue is that a collector dealer will NOT sell a car at a loss (if they do, it's a RARE event) - at least, that's been my experience with the various dealers I've tried to buy cars from over the years. Most businesses will recognize that sometimes it makes sense to take a loss, get an influx of cash into the business from a sale and move on down the pike. But, collector car dealers aren't wired that way. They'll hold out forever to get their price point - taking comfort in the fact that if they can't get it, an auction will provide them with a golden parachute. I've come to know who several of the dealers are on the televised auctions and they sell as many cars as they buy.

So, we can debate all day long as to what a car is or isn't worth to most folks - and I enjoy doing that as much as the next guy, trust me - and will do it again in this forum. But, for the reasons I've discussed, dealers seem to be immune from the basic market forces of supply and demand. As a example, who "needs" a '64 Olds 98 convertible? The answer is "nobody". But, for those who "want" a '64 Ods 98 convertible (or pick your favorite car flavor), some will pay a premium to obtain the few that still survive and that suit their needs and dealers know this - especially since dealers tend to offer cars that are a cut above average or have some kind of wow-factor.

In a nutshell, when you buy from a collector car dealer, you accept that you're abandoning rational thought. At least, I have. Color me foolish.

Mr_Shiftright

All true enough as far as it goes, but the market value of that car is not based on one dealer sale. It's based on a lot of data points. The dealer's eventual selling price is not that relevant to what YOU should be paying.

As a matter of pride, he may hold onto it for ten years. People do that---we call this "buying ahead of the market" and waiting for it to catch up. That's probably what the dealer will do.

All he needs is one naive buyer and he's off the hook. Just make sure you're not that naive buyer; otherwise you're on the hook, waiting for the car to catch up to the market.

If you cannot walk away from the deal, you cannot negotiate. Fortunately, you already know that, and you walked. It wouldn't have been a catastrophe if you got the car you *loved* and paid an extra $5K because it was "just like in my dream"---so what's the harm at being a bit too extravagant if you feel very fulfilled by it.

However, what is tragic is to pay too much for something that you know, in your *gut*, is not quite what you wanted or is a disappointment in its manifested reality, as it sits in front of you.

parm

All true enough as far as it goes, but the market value of that car is not based on one dealer sale. It's based on a lot of data points. The dealer's eventual selling price is not that relevant to what YOU should be paying.

I would say that "should" needs to be emphasized - as in "what you SHOULD be paying" . . . if buying from a private seller. Of course, I've seen some private sellers who are absolutely delusional in terms of what they think their car is worth. If they don't get their price, they simply continue to hold onto it. But, at that price, the car isn't really for sale. I've wasted plenty of time on those folks and have basically learned to stay clear of them.

My point is that the adage of "buyers determining price" doesn't apply (or at least is less fitting) when the seller is a dealer. That's not to say the market will allow a dealer to charge twice what a car is worth, but I've found they're less willing to negotiate. Case in point, if we all agree that '64 Olds 98 convertible was worth $17K to $18K, none of us would've been able to buy that car because the dealer simply would never agree to sell at that price. Never ever.

Mr_Shiftright

yes but you could buy another one just as good for $18K. That's why the market is $18K, not the dealer's price.

Sure he can sit on the car until it rots if he wants to.

Dealers sometimes get higher prices because a) they show the car in attractive showrooms; b) they offer financing c) they have a higher level of liability, therefore providing the buyer with more legal protections d) they have a bigger advertising budget and are generally pretty good salesmen.

So they are "convenient and persuasive" but they still have to compete, especially when they have a car that isn't very sexy.

hpmctorque

Dealers have all these advantages over private sellers, plus they usually accept trade-ins. The upshot is that dealers generally have more prospects per given car, which gives them a better chance of selling it at any price point. Offdetting the advantages are greater expenses.

qbrozen

It is demonstrated on just about every episode of... something like Classic Car Collector? (I'm not sure of the name)... the one with Wayne Carini (spelling?).

He's constantly buying cars privately, maybe spitting on it here and there, tacking on $5k-$10k and actually getting that price. Seems like it involves an overseas buyer or seller. I find it... interesting... that he bangs these sellers down on price to what he thinks its worth, but then has no problem selling it for far more than that. And he does sit on the cars for a while, too, sometimes.

Mr_Shiftright

Presuming all that is not staged or rigged of course. Reality TV is notoriously fraudulent.

But let's give him the benefit of the dougt---maybe he's "buying 'em right" when the deals are actually real. I have friends who are classic car dealers and they don't pay inflated prices for anything, believe me. They know how to "walk" on a deal and they know exactly their bottom line.

If a dealer has a good network of overseas dealers in place, he will often call them before he buys the car. Smart makes money, impulsive doesn't.

parm

Here's one that popped up on my radar recently. 1962 Thunderbird convertible Here's the dealers website if you want to see more photos Dealer website - I can't figure out how to link directly to the dealer's listing page so you'll have to click on Inventory first to get to this car.

This car is on consignment and, according to the dealer, the seller has spent $45K on restoration costs. Yikes! Personally, I'm not seeing $45K of cost on this car unless it was an absolute rust-bucket basketcase. But, the dealer says they sold the car to this guy several years ago, so I'm guessing it was in half-way decent shape at that time because dealers generally don't handle junk or project cars.

The dash is far from pristine and the trunk looks like a 10-year old sprayed it with a couple of cans of black Rustoleum. LOVE the color and the American Torque Thrust wheels. The convertible top is newer and so is the interior (sans the dash obviously). Reportedly, work has also been done to the rear end, suspension, transmission and engine - which is evident from the photos. The upgraded stereo (while keeping the stock dash unit) is a nice touch.

The car is far from all stock, but that's fine with me. I don't know if you can call this a resto-mod. Maybe a resto-rod? Obviously, there's no good comps from something like this other than perhaps sales of other 1961-63 convertibles in nice shape (but not concours quality). But, then you run into the age-old argument of what is worth more - an all-stock original or a car like this that has been "breathed on" with what I consider to be tasteful upgrades and I give the seller credit for not hanging temp & oil gauges under the dash!

The asking price is $36,995 so we know it's not worth that. But, I'm curious what this car is worth. Given that its a consignment car, I would think it's a bit different in terms of determining its price point. Obviously, the dealer is probably going to earn a percentage commission. But, the person with the final yay or nay say in terms of what they'll ultimately accept is the seller/consignor. And, if he's not particularly anxious to sell, he probably won't come down much.

So, what would you give for this '62 T-Bird convertible?

lemko

That would've stopped it right there for me. At the price they were asking, I'd have expected perfection.