What is this thing worth?

lemmer

I don't anything about the values of these cars, but I am loving the story and the comments.

lemko

215 CID pushrod? Isn't that the Chevy Stovebolt?

andre1969

215 CID pushrod? Isn't that the Chevy Stovebolt?

Nah, it's a variation on the more modern Chevy pushrod 6-cyl. I think that engine first came out as a 194.5 CID unit in 1962, and was later offered in 230 and 250 CID configurations, plus the 153 CID 4-cyl that the Chevy II used.

Mr_Shiftright

You can tell the dealer what Shifty says: "The price in a car ad is merely the owner exercising his First Amendment Rights".

RE: The 1970 Camaro RS --- based on your description Gary, I'd say this is about an $8000 car. Mediocre paint and a bad dash are not easy things to correct---these are "do-overs" not "clean-ups".

Never put lipstick on a pig---people WILL notice.

parm

You can tell the dealer what Shifty says: "The price in a car ad is merely the owner exercising his First Amendment Rights".

Actually, I did just that. Got me nowhere. :P

I nicely said I didn't care what he paid for the car last year. The only thing I care about is what it's worth today. You can imagine how well that went over. He said he was sorry to hear how I was all "gloom and doom" about the market (has this guy ever heard of CNN or opened a newpaper?). He also said he'd sold 15 cars so far this month and that he's on track to have a much better year than last - which apparently was very good. Finally, he said he didn't need my money that bad. Gee. I hope I don't get all misty-eyed . . . . . .

I simply said I was glad his operation was immune to the forces of the global economy and wished him luck.

Mr_Shiftright

Well we certainly wouldn't want to doubt the claims and testimony of a used car salesman.

Hey, it's his car. He can buy it a birthday cake every year if he wants to.

garv214

Yeah, it had too many needs. I had performed some quick mental arithmetic $7K (body/paint/trim bits), $2K (interior), $1-2K mechanicals/suspension, so I was going to be into this car for at least another $10-11K. The bidding actually got to $12.5K, which stunned me (the reserve was $13K).

I could get this bad boy and change for the price of the RS once I was done http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/1792735351.html note: this car has the 360 hp 350, so maybe they did come with an LT-1.

This was just another reinforcement of my need to "lay hands" on a car before I make a serious offer and to buy one that is done vs a project.

Mr_Shiftright

As far as I remember, there's no difference between an LT1 and any 4 bolt main engine of that period, at least not externally. I think the LT1 had a forged crank, aluminum valve covers and of course that all important 010 casting number. Oh I think it had its own special carburator, too.

When most people say "LT-1", they are talking about 2nd generation LT1, from 1992 or so.

parm

LOL! That's scary. I used the "birthday cake" analogy with him too.

Later this year, Mecum is coming to Des Moines (where the dealer is located). I told him if he truly feels the car is worth more today than he paid last year, I suggested he put this Tempest in the auction at no reserve. He didn't respond to that. More shocked I could not be. :surprise:

Mr_Shiftright

the real issue here is not hard to understand.

After one year of his trying, the public has told him the real price and he doesn't want to hear it.

kyfdx

Let's be fair, though.... If he moves enough cars, he can sit on that one, and wait for the market to come back.... If you are moving $100K of cars per month, sitting on $19K isn't going to break you... If he's been in business long enough, he might not even have to finance his inventory....

Plus, there is this... Most car dealers/managers are no different than your typical private owner.. They look at what they have in a car to help determine what to ask for it (even though that really has nothing to do with the market). I'd say that 80% of them are that way, and the main difference between them and the private seller, is they usually do a little better on the buy side, and rarely have that issue...

Real professional used car guys, that know the market and when to cut losses, etc.. very few and far between.. Most get stuck on a price, just like a private seller.. It's like the Kia dealer that's still sitting on a new '08 Optima.. "Is he nuts... I can buy a used one for $10K, and he's still asking $16K for this one!" Well, duh... why do you think he still has a new '08 model in June, 2010?

Some guys just won't sell certain cars for a market price, even if it seems to make all the sense in the world (to you and me).. You can't talk them out of it... just have to make your offer, then move on if you can't make a deal. All the "evidence" won't make a bit of difference.

regards,
kyfdx

Mr_Shiftright

At his pricing, the car is, in my eyes, not even seriously for sale anymore.

"Sales" means actually sell things. Between the car market drops and ordinary inflation, he's bleeding money every day he sits on that thing.

omarman

I could get this bad boy and change for the price of the RS once I was done http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/1792735351.html note: this car has the 360 hp 350, so maybe they did come with an LT-1.

That link comes up as a deleted post so I can't see the ad but was it a 1970 Z28? I think the LT-1 350 was rated 370 hp in the Vette and 360 hp in the Z28 Camaro in 1970.

Mr_Shiftright

yes 360 HP in the Z-28. First year for the LT-1 was 1970, definitely.

mako1a

yes 360 HP in the Z-28. First year for the LT-1 was 1970, definitely

I'm glad you corrected the prior comments. I was a poor 18 year old in Feb of 1970 when the new body style Z28s came out. (They were late because the rear quarters wrinkled on the factory presses). I had a 65 Mustang 6 cyl convert, but my buddy got a windfall from an expiring grandparent and at the ripe old age of 17 took his $5k down to the Chevy dealer and bought a 70 1/2 Z28. It was everything you could want. The last of the real muscle cars.

The dealer actually tried to talk him out of it. He saw the trouble a 17 yr old could get into with that much power. But his dad was there with him and told the dealer "that's what he wants and that's what he's gonna' have" I liked his dad a lot!

Anyway it came with solid lifters which later LT1s didn't have. You'll see the quick remove valve covers on the solid lifter cars as they needed adjusted about once per month. It also had headers tied with bailing wire in the trunk as the dealer wasn't allowed to install them under warranty. Another feature was the smog pump. Many people don't know that pumps were factory on early Z28 LT1 cars. Removal was easy and almost expected by gearheads of the time.
That car was extremely fast. That was the most thrilling car I was ever in.

omarman

It also had headers tied with bailing wire in the trunk as the dealer wasn't allowed to install them under warranty. Another feature was the smog pump.

That is strange. Factory headers in the trunk of a second gen 1970 Z28 Camaro? I wonder why GM would see fit to include headers as part of the RPO option which included the LT-1 engine with A.I.R. smog pump?

Different story with the first gen Camaro though...One place sells reproduction headers made to specs of factory-supplied headers for the 67-69 Camaro.

garv214

Omarman

Here is the text of the ad off of craigslist:

1970 Camaro Z 28 Real Deal
Date: 2010-06-15, 4:16AM

70 Camaro Z 28, real Z28 not a clone, Have partial build sheet, numbers matching 350 360hp, turbo 400, 12 bolt 3:73 Posi . Car has had color change to Hugger Orange, Headers added (have original Exhaust manifolds) low mileage rebuild on original numbers matching block New Interior, new paint, correct wheels,

Car is currently registered and with clear Calif. title.

Asking $ 22500 possible partial trade plus cash. Email or call with questions, leave contact info for answer. Dave (707) 588-9988

The car was Orange with white stripes (only one pic). I have requested a couple of pics from the seller, so I will try to post them when I receive them.

mako1a

I saw the headers in the trunk. He may have checked a block to include headers and that's how they came. However they came, tied together so as not to rattle (or get 2 lefts and no right) I suppose. I was the first person to open the trunk.

I also helped remove the smog pump. The car didn't have 100 miles on it and here we were, 17 and 18 years old taking wrenches to a brand new car. A Z28 no less.

Within 3 months the car had big fat Mickey Thompsons, (there were no radials back then) and a set of ladder bars to eliminate wheel hop. The Muncie 4 speed lasted for 2 years until Hurst replacement, but the M22 (rock crusher) lasted the life of the car which was 5 years. It was sold for parts ($1300 in 1975) as gas had gone thru the roof, insurance cancellation was just a ticket away and the front disc brakes were beyond repair.

It ran 11.92 best time at Pittsburgh Intl Dragway. That was on pump gas (Sunoco 260) without any engine mods.

omarman

Great story! Your friend picked an interesting "first car" to make some memories with.
As I read through your post I was dreading to read the part where a large tree or sturdy guard rail might have put an end to all that fun. Glad to hear none of that happened.

Sounds like your pal bought the car he wanted, drove it to the potential which a Z28 had and in the end, well, used it up. Nothing wrong with that! That's what real muscle car fans did in the 70s while real "collectors" focused on turn of the century vehicles.

I've heard that Norwood-built first gen Z-28 Camaros could be ordered with headers supplied to Chevy by a company called Kustom and were indeed delivered to the dealer in the trunk. I understand your experience is with a second gen Z28 but wondered if you recall any details about the headers which came with your friend's car.

Must have been a fun ride back then

mako1a

If you want to see a real nice 67 Camaro SS/RS go to my Carspace page link title . I put a video of my 67 on there which I sold to a dealer/owner.

Funny story. I drove the 67 on his lot just to look over the new Vettes and the owner saw it, looked it over and said to me "I don't want this car to leave my lot". He said what will it take? I answered $25k to which he replied, be right back. Handed me a check for 25k and said the salesman will give you a ride home and pick up the title.

Fastest sale I ever made. I left wondering if I did the right thing. It worked out OK. I now have a 91 Z28 (305 went in the dumpster along with the 4L60) replaced by a 350 4 bolt that has been bored, stroked to 389 CI with stainless triple grind valves, Keith Black pistons, Comp Cam, Eagle Crank, very loud exhaust and a built 700R4 with stall converter. Pretty much just barely street legal.

Funny thing is I retired and moved here from Virginia Beach to a small mountain town where everyone knows your business. I completely blew away a Nitrous Mustang that was asking for it right in town and now I can't get a good light to light run for anything. Word spreads fast. Everyone knows the Z28 and nobody will give it a go. I'll be 60 next month, but the gearhead goes on forever.

garv214

Hey Guys

I saw this car on E-Bay recently. I have been having an itch to get a muscle car again and I wanted your collective opinions on this particular car. It is a 1971 Camaro that has been pretty much gone through by the previous owner. Although I am not wild about the color choice, it appears to be a very presentable car with a lot of money invested in it. The only things I would want to do is install a set of seat belts, redo and reinstall the original front seats, and maybe lower the stance of the car by at least 1-2" (my god you could put 1000 lbs in that trunk and still not scrape the wheels).

The seller offered me a deal for $19K. What do you think it is worth? Here is the ebay listing along with the You Tube of the car running.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320551263897&ssPag- - eName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-Yg_0T8LJU

I feel bad for poor ole Trevor...

Mr_Shiftright

Well it follows Shifty's Golden Rule of Pricing Street Rods:

Total cost of Receipts (divided by) 2 = Approx FMV.

Pretty wild-looking. Yep, you are gonna hafta lower it if you actually want to drive it around, and those mufflers are going to get real annoying real fast.

Maybe just a set of rallye wheels, stock size, would do the trick---or perhaps some wider rubber than stock if you can fit it. it's going to be tough to put all the power onto the ground at any rate.

would be nice if you could get to drive it before you bought it.

euphonium

It's a McCamaro!

radgto

I am considering the thought of selling my 67 GTO. All matching numbers 400 ci with a his/hers turbo 400 tranny. Paint in excellent shape as is interior. Mild Yellow w/Gold Peril and clear coat. Engine is bored 60 over with high performance cam, headers and 750 carb. Looking for the market value of this vehicle. Picture available if requested

euphonium

First, pretend you sold it a week ago. Is there any remorse or regret? If so, keep it.

Mr_Shiftright

You could check with www.autotraderclassics.com and see what the asking price ranges are. But keep in mind that you have modified the car, and so you'd have to consider a) that asking prices are not market value prices and b) what it would cost to bring your car back to stock.

You might have to get it appraised professionally if you want a really accurate number, because it sounds like there are a lot of variables here that won't translate with price guides or auction prices of bone-stock GTOs.

parm

Back in Feb., Shifty estimated the value of this black '57 Coupe Deville to be around $30-$34K. I actually was interested in this car at the time and found out it was on consignment out in California with an asking price of around $43K. Later this year, it wound up at a well-known collector car dealer in St. Louis who sold it in about a week - though I don't know what it sold for, but the asking price was more reasonable, around $37K. 2nd listing

Last night, a very nice '57 Coupe Deville in Vegas sold at Barrett Jackson for $37,000 (or $40,700 with buyers premium). This car appeared to be a bit nicer than the black one referenced above. With the extra bump in price that comes from an auction, I'd say our intrepid forum leader wasn't very far off.

Mr_Shiftright

Thanks for the compliment but really anyone who can take the time to look at a larger array of sales, rather than a few, will have better predictions----not every time, but most of the time. The more points of sale you research, say within a two year period, the better your chance of hitting on the price range that *most* sales will fall into.

Of course, if one starts to see UPTICKS in the sales data, then one adjusts accordingly. This is especially true for "hot" cars, like 60s muscle, whereas cars of the late 1940s, with rare exception, pretty much just trundle along with inflation year after year.

Some even drop, despite their age, and points of sale will reflect this as well. Lack of collector interest, economic conditions, the cost of borrowing---all those factor into it.

parm

The tough part can be finding market data that is recent and comparable to your subject. As an appraiser of commercial real estate, that research is what bogs down the process - especially in today's market where arm's-length sales aren't always that plentiful, depending on the property type. Figured you'd find this B-J sale if you ever needed it, but wanted to throw it your direction anyway.

Maybe it's just me since I go "gah-gah" over Caddy's, but I sense an uptick from the market in the appeal of 1957 Coupe Devilles - though I don't have any real hard evidence from the market to back that up. In their classic car magazine a few months ago, Hemmings pegged these as good, affordable collectibles. I think the article had a pricepoint like "good buys under $xx,xxx" or something like that.

Mr_Shiftright

Ah I dunno. Whenever a car costs way more to restore than its current value, it's hard to see where an uptick would come from--especially since a '57 Cadillac is not particularly favored over a '56 or '58 by collectors. I just don't see what would "drive" an uptick of that particular model. Perhaps, as time goes on, the ERA of 50s Cadillacs would move up slowly--I could see that, as they are nice cars and still capable of driving on modern roads, with AC, good looks, etc.

Of course, my usual prejudice against 4-doors still prevails in that prediction.

berri

Weren't the 57/58 GM cars what drove GM to ease out Harley Earl because they came across as way too yesterday?

Mr_Shiftright

I think basically he just retired. He was 65 years old in 1959 when he left GM, so that was probably the real reason. He died in 1969.

He also won the Earl/Exner tail-fin competition !! :P

berri

Harley Earl did indeed trump Exner with those 59 Caddy fins! Earl loved aviation themes. Sometimes I think he secretly designed the rear end of those 59 Fords. I was just a little kid in the late 50's, but I still remember all of the excitement of that era. The Russians launched Sputnik, color TV was becoming a bit more common, the airlines introduced the B707 and DC8 jets...so I guess the automotive styling of that period actually made sense for the times. Exner's 57's were drop dead gorgeous when they were introduced (too bad about the QC issues). Ford took the big leap in '58 with the Edsel and somewhat similar Mercury Turnpike Cruiser. Unfortunately, they were duds. I recall the '59 GM models actually drawing a lot of attention when they displayed them at the malls. People seemed to like them, but I think they were a bit afraid of buying them. (Maybe a bit not unlike the '96 era oval Ford Taurus). Funny, but by 59 the Mopars actually became rather conservative (well, not Dodge) except for the fake stamped rear tire look optional on the trunks.

Mr_Shiftright

As hideous as it is, you can get big bucks for the right kind of '59 Caddy. Go figure.
Only goes to prove that value is tied very closely to supply and demand ratios, not to merit. I call this the "What Would Herman Munster Drive?" Theory of collector car values.

texases

re-the '59 Caddy fins - it's not just collectors, Cadillac's using picture of the fins in current ads to highlight its history of 'innovative' design, I think in reference to the new CTS coupe... :surprise:

hpmctorque

I've thought about the wisdom of using the '59 fins in the ads for the new CTS coupe. While it draws attention to the ad, and sends the message that the Cadillac brand is well established and has a history of provocative styling, I'm wondering whether the net effect is positive. I think showing that dramatic old model with the new one succeeds in differentiating the brand. However, I question whether it's a net positive differentiation, given that tail fins may represent the epitome of planned obsolescence.

What do others think of this ad?

texases

I agree - the CTS coupe's target audience isn't likely too impressed by old, outrageous fins...odd choice. I'd rather they hammer on the many excellent, in some cases class-leading, aspects of the CTS.

fintail

You can also go the opposite direction...CTS ad revolving around the Nurburgring...Regal ad bragging about its German background...makes it look like someone has a fixation, or it says when it comes to highline cars, Deutschland uber alles...after all :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

To me, there is something profoundly sad about hanging onto 50-year-old laurels---like the broken down old football player in a bar talking about his one great touchdown. Then others pat him on the back, tell him how great he was, and turn back to their beers.

If I were Cadillac PR, I'd be okay with showing classic old Cadillacs, but I'd show them going for big bucks at auction---I'm sure Eisenhower's Eldo convertible got a pretty penny indeed. There are a few 50s Cadillacs that can, on a good day, bust $100K at auction---so I'd show these.

Stress future value, not people pointing at tail fins and giggling.

euphonium

"like the broken down old football player in a bar talking about his one great touchdown. Then others pat him on the back, tell him how great he was, and turn back to their beers."

Magna Jock ego is a tradition , universal, & never ending. :sick:

lemko

What a you talking about? I scored four touchdowns in a single game!

hpmctorque

I agree with you, and hope that the head of Cadillac's marketing picks up on your idea of promoting the future value in owning a Cadillac. Mercedes does this very effectively in their ads, which imply a time line of great products, and the continuation of this attribute into the future.

Mr_Shiftright

Resale value is a subtle but operative part of the new car buyer's decision process, in many cases. So, too, the "future classic" line, be it mere myth or not.

hpmctorque

True, but the perception of these factors can influence the buying decision. Would Mercedes sell as many cars as it does without the heritage factor?

Mr_Shiftright

Certainly not. Ferrari pretty much pre-sells the entire inventory and a oart of that is based on "joining the heritage club"---not all certainly, as the car can walk its talk, so to speak.

fintail

No doubt MB finds a lot of sales based on heritage...old MB pretty much as a whole have a hugely positive image - even if some of them are slow or weird or high maintenance. I know the MB dealer in Seattle keeps a few vintage models in the showroom too...very well played marketing scheme.

hpmctorque

I think Cadillac could exploit its past for marketing purposes in a similar way as Mercedes does. It had some really neat looking cars in the '30s, '40s, and '50s, and, to a lesser extent, in the '60s and '70s. I just wouldn't choose the '59. Of course, the '80s was a really bad decade for Cadillac, and the '90s wouldn't be too useful for marketing, either.

From an engineering standpoint, while Cadillac may not have been the first, it was an early adopter of the fully automatic transmission and various power, safety and comfort features. I'm sure the marketers could figure out how to present it in an exciting way, and tie it in with current and future models.

One important thing that Cadillac marketing has lacked for a long time is a consistent theme. Nothing in recent decades has compared with its "Standard of the World" tag line, and the advertising associated with it.

Cadillac is already doing well in China and, to a lesser extent, in Russia. It now needs to duplicate that success in other developing markets, such as India and Brazil. Establishing itself as an important luxury marque in Western Europe will be much more difficult.

While Cadillac has a shot at greatness again, I wouldn't bet my money on it, or on the new GM when it goes public, for that matter. I'm more hopeful than confident regarding GM over the long haul. It'll be interesting to watch, though.

fintail

Maybe showing old but known celebrities in Caddys could work too. Couldn't hurt anyway, Caddy still has some pretty unmemorable ads. They need to show off swank like the Eldo Brougham. That's the image they need, but with the potential for performance. There has been innovation, but it will take a while to build a rep for it...the Germans have cornered that market for decades.

Europe is going to be very tough for Caddy - probably the toughest market, especially if GM thinks selling a rebadged Saab is a good idea.

hpmctorque

Good points! Associating Cadillacs with celebrities should be relatively easy. Maybe that would even resonate with some Europeans. Although the celebrity link probably wouldn't play as well with Europeans as with Americans, it could be a way of drawing attention to the brand, and differentiating its luxury image.

Now that GM has sold Saab, the days of sharing GM's FWD Epsilon platform in Europe should come to an end. While the next 9-3 (but not the one after that, assuming that Saab survives) will be based on a Saab modified Epsilon I platform. I think that future European market Cadillacs, including a new 3-Series/C-Class competitor, will be RWD, with AWD optional.

Speaking of Saab, I hope it survives. I know the current 9-3 is old architecturally, but I rather like it. I haven't looked at the new 9-5 yet, but from the pics there doesn't seem to be anything outstanding the styling. What I don't like is the weight. It's a porker.

One problem with second tier brands, such as Saab, is that it only makes sense to buy them used, or, maybe, only when they're heavily discounted.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm not so sure that 50s celebrities are what Cadillac wants to show the world today---well, if they *carefully* selected the celebrities, but really, a drugged out Elvis or notorious rat pack members, or Jersey gangsters....I don't think so. Maybe Doris Day? Certainly Dwight Eisenhower.