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'56 Belair in Oregon
'56 Belair in Iowa
Neither car has power steering. But, both have pretty stock looking interiors (except for a few add-on gauges) and 2nd generation motors. And, both have pretty similar asking prices. Guess both dealers were signing out of the same hymnal when it came to giving them a price tag.
Of the three tri-year Chev's, the '56 doesn't get much love, but it's my favorite.
Here's a '56 with 327, 4-speed and claims to be show quality for $25K
http://cars-on-line.com/46680.html
You should be able to buy a restored, correct '56 Chevy 2D HT for the money they are asking for resto-rods.
If I were open to that plan, I might look at these two: The GTO needs to show some interior shots but seller is offering more pics on request. The Firebird could be fun because that 3-speed is just begging to be replaced by a Muncie 4-speed.
Spend no more than you would on a 2 y/o Camry, and inspect carefully for rust, damage, etc...just like you would on a used Camry! :P
Even if depreciates like a modern Detroit car there's not a whole lot of risk up front since neither car is a rare minty collectible.
I think the passion for "matching numbers" and correct bolt-head patterns and "only 2,542 made of which only 647 are known to exist" is all fading away--many new collectors want to drive these cars and not have to worry about them. Repo parts are fine with them, as are various modifications. They want safe, reliable vintage cars, not authentic ones.
Car #1: 1968 442 (W30?)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160442924854&ssPag- eName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Pros: Real 442 with a 4 speed, completely done, 4:33 rear end gear
Cons: Will never ever be able to prove its a W30, have to live with the side stripe being mispositioned (my pet peeve on these cars), 4:33 rear end gear
E-mailed the owner, seems like an honest guy. This car came up on E-Bay before and it topped out in the middle upper teens if I remember correctly.
Car #2: 1972 Buick Skylark
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220617485226&ssPag- eName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
Pros: Completely and nicely done, I am a sucker for this color...
Cons: Not a real GS, but I don't think that bothers me too much...
Any thoughts on what these beasts are worth?">link title
Here's one you might want to look at. It's a column shift automatic, but it's fairly well loaded and has factory A/C. This car is offered by the same dealer that has the '65 Tempest and '67 Firebird. So, if the prices on those two are high, then I suspect we'll find out the $34,900 asking price (ironically the same as the Firebird) for this 442 is in rarefied air too.
BTW, the ad shows this car has a 350 motor. Was that correct for a 1969 442?
If the car were "real" and very very sharp, the price would be about market correct.
If it's the wrong motor, then you have to deduct whatever it would cost to find, date code and rebuild a correct motor. That would probably be at least a $5000 enterprise.
I drove my '68 Dart for years with failed power steering...didn't mind it at the time, but when the power steering in my '79 New Yorker went out, I had it fixed immediately! That thing was a brute, thanks to the extra weight and bigger tires.
I've had a few cars without power brakes (the two Darts and a '67 Newport) and didn't find the lack of a power boost to be a problem. However, if you convert to disc brakes, a power assist is almost mandatory.
I believe power steering can be added to the Oregon Chevy.
On a big heavy V-8, lack of power steering would be a deal-breaker for me. On a sports car, of course, not.
That's why the old cars had such huge steering wheels you know.
Wouldn't it be ironic if it ended up being the same '68 Dart? :shades: How long ago did you have yours? I bought mine back in 1992. I remember letting one of my friends take his driver's test in it. He screwed up almost immediately, and the cop he rode out with made him get in the passenger seat, and then the cop drove the car through the whole course. My friend said the cop was cursing my car the whole time for not having power steering. He also whined about it idling too fast.
On those collecting trips, I fell in love with the Chesapeake Bay and accepted the lowest paying job of those offered - just to live here. Since then, the population has more than tripled (Calvert Co). Sometimes when we love an area, others discover it too.
The Dart would never have passed MD's tough inspection, so I put it for sale and a waterman bought it for $250 with the intention of using the slant-6 in his workboat.
The body was pretty beat by then - so I hope its not the same car you bought in '91! I've always liked Dodge Darts and the slant-6.
Blue one
Hope there are some 442 experts (I'm not) out there. The black one was presented earlier. It's an automatic (column shift at that) with a bench seat, but it has received some new bits and pieces (bezels, wheel well chrome and side moldings, door panels, seat covers, carpet, top) rechromed bumpers, new brakes rebuilt front suspension (no idea what all that entailed) and new exhaust with Flowmasters. Plus, it has factory A/C, power windows and it's riding on spiffy Torque Thrust wheels.
The blue one appears pretty stock/original and stirs the gears with a Hurst 4-speed. It too has factory A/C and the original AM/FM radio (which is a nice touch). Manual crank windows, but a tilt steering column and a working tic-tock-tac.
Given the amount of work and replacement parts it has received, the black was probably a former quasi basket case. Whereas, the blue one has apparently been fairly well maintained. So, I guess it comes down to, do you like the "new" and "glitz" of the black one or the "faithfulness" of the blue one?
Both cars have power steering and power brakes. I'm going to contact both dealers to discuss their power trains and what they were born with. Since neither ad says "blows cold", I'm going to assume neither of the A/C's work. Asking price of the black one is $34,900 and $28,900 for the blue one.
OK. Which would you want and how much would you pay (aka. what's it worth)?
Before that one, I had a '69 Dart GT with a 225 slant six. Had that one from late 1989 to early 1992, when I got run off the road and hit a traffic light pole. I still miss that car. It was pretty nice, and only had about 78,000 miles on it when it got wrecked.
A whole lot on these old cars depends on how they actually drive. They can all look nice, but when I get into one of these 60s cars, I'm always amazed how differently two identical cars can feel on the road. I look for a certain smoothness, not too many rattles, good straight tracking, easy shifts, lack of vibration in the drivetrain, etc.
You can always tell a "cosmetic" restoration by the test drive---they look great, they drive like crap.
If you are serious, I would lay hands on both cars to see which you like better. I have driven both 4 speeds and automatics, and I prefer the automatics simply because I tend to treat these cars as cruisers vs high performance machines. Mine was a turbo 400 on the column with a shift kit, and it did just fine (it wouldn't white smoke the tires, but it would bark the 1-2 upshift).
They are fun cars and heck of a lot more interesting (to me at least) than a corvette, camaro, or mustang because there a far fewer of them on the road.
As other cars fall by the wayside, this 1965 Tempest convertible seems to have the most staying power on my shopping list.
Talked to the dealer today about gettng some additional photos. I told him I'm serious (I am) and if I liked what I saw in these additional photos I'd be calling him again to discuss price. At that point, the dealer immediately piped up to say he wouldn't budge much at all on price. He's curently asking $23,900 and said he started out (a year ago) at $29K. He feels he's already dropped his price. While he said he'd be willing to sell and ship it to me (I'm about 8 hours away) at his price, he said he wouldn't sell it for $20K and probably not even for $21K - though he didn't say if that included shipping. At $23,900, he felt compelled to share with me that "he wasn't making any money" because he'd already dropped the price so much (paaaalleeeezz!). He bought this car about a year ago. A YEAR AGO! And, he had the guts to tell me he's sold several cars (I think he said 15) this month and "doesn't need to sell this car". :confuse: The car now has 15" wheels. He said if it doesn't sell fairly soon, he'll put on 17" wheels (which he said are more sexy) and will bump his price back up. I felt like saying, "Jeeeezus are you on crack or something???" But, I just let it pass. Personally, I like the 15" wheels. To me, that's the size you would've put on the car back in the day and look great to my eye. Anything larger would look stupid. Couldn't tell if he made that statement to pull my chain and provoke me to "save" this car from that unfortunate fate or not.
In my head, I was thinking around $17K or $18K and that's assuming the car looks as good in person as it does in the photos - and that's at the TOP end of the CPI/Hemmings value guide. Figured if I threw out my figures at this stage in the game, it would've just pissed him off (he's kind of arrogant if you hadn't figured that out yet), so I didn't push the issue of price yet.
I'm not brave/stupid/trusting enough to buy a car without looking at it in person (at least at his price) and seeing how it drives. And, I don't expect this guy to negotiate seriously unless I'm sitting in his office with my checkbook in hand. On the other hand, I don't want to make the trip if he still won't come off his price much. Obviously, we need to settle on a price before I make the trip out there. So, I'll be uttering the phrase, "If I come out there and like the car I'll buy it for $_____.
OK. This is where you guys come in. Help me fill in the blank. What do you think is a fair price to pay? And, at what price or above would I be considered the Village Idiot? :surprise:
But I was at $18k before and he was $17,500. I believe you said before it "wasn't perfect." Correct? Sounds to me like he's looking for show car money (seems like so many classic car sellers are, doesn't it?).
If it were a show car. Like.... ya know... one of those perfect, just restored, examples on Barrett Jackson .... I could see $22k-$23k. So that's a #1 car. If this is a #2, as previously described, you'd be "the village idiot" at anything over $19k, IMHO. And, even then, you ain't typically turning a #2 into a #1 for $3k. So maybe you SHOULD look for a #1. (?)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
For grins, I happened to seach Mecum's auction results a bit ago. Here's what I found. At Mecum's St. Paul, MN auction on June 20, 2009 (almost exactly one year ago), they show the following '65 Tempst convertible sold for $18,250.
- Restored in 2006
- New heater core
- New 5 spoke aluminum wheels with redline tires and two spare redline tires
- Runs good uses no oil
- New shocks and exhaust
- Will be driven from Minot North Dakota
- Power steering
- Electric top
- 2-speed automatic transmission
- 326 CI engine
- 74,000 miles believed to be actual
Based on what I know, this HAS TO BE the same car. So, it sold a year ago for $18,250 which I'm pretty sure includes an allowance for the buyer's premium. Good call gbrozen. Uncanny!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I don't know what he thinks he has here---it's just a Tempest 326.
His entire response? I appreciate the offer. I've never been a big fan of Hemmings or NADA price guides. That's it! . . . . . . I couldn't make this stuff up. Whoever said, "no man is an island" apparently never met this guy. :P
As a comeback, I should've said, "If you're going to keep your head buried firmly in the sand like that, while you're down there, you might as well look for the Lindbergh baby."
I'm not sure what he's waiting to hear on the small shortwave radio he has in his bunker. The war is over, and the collector car market has surrendered 20% of its profits to the economic downturn
In short, he wants a 2007 price in 2010. Do homeowners get a 2007 price nowadays? In 95% of cases, absolutely not.
His entire response? I appreciate the offer. I've never been a big fan of Hemmings or NADA price guides. That's it! . . . . . . I couldn't make this stuff up. Whoever said, "no man is an island" apparently never met this guy.
If you want, I'll email the guy and offer him $12K for it. Then, maybe he'll take your $17K! :P
Doesn't stop 'em from trying, though! My old condo, which I sold for $185K back in December 2004, got sold again in March 2007 for $245K. Right now, there's an equivalent unit for sale, for $237,500. It's only been on the market now for 348 days! I guess one of these decades, prices will come back up.
As for collector car prices, at the Spring Carlisle swap meet back in April, I did notice that asking prices were finally starting to get more reasonable. Or, less ridiculous, depending on how you want to look at it.
Shifty
I am going to look at this car tonight. I e-mailed the seller asking if the engine was original to the car. He was not aware of any way to determine that for the early model Camaros. As I am sure you have seen one or two of these in the past, is there a way to match the numbers? Also, he claims the engine is an LT1. The block casting decodes to a 1969 350 4 bolt main block either 300hp or 350hp application. How would I determine if it is an actual LT1 engine?
Your thoughts on the car and its value?
Thanks
He also included the following: "Maybe you can run your business at a loss but I don't. I haven't sold a car at a loss in eight years. This won't be my first.
2009 was our best year so far. We exceeded five million in sales. It's not because our prices are too high. If you watch the market and the auctions you will have a better understanding of the actual market. I buy 200 cars a year. You just need to buy one. Good luck in your search."
His advice is for ME to watch the market? Gee! Why didn't I think of that? Duhhh, I've only been watching the market for the last 15 years or so. Still, I gotta admit, I've never had a dealer send me his purchase invoice before. What's more, this "sharing of information" was unsolicited. I never even asked for it. Not sure why he'd do that, other than to shoot down my claim he bought the car for $17,000. So, I give him credit for full disclosure.
So then, the price was really $18,250 (or $19,345 - depending on whether you include or exclude the buyer's premium). Alrighty gang, what do we think of this car's value now????
Well now, I think I'll offer the guy $11,000, because I think he's a [non-permissible content removed] :P
Seriously though, I'd tell the guy thanks but no thanks, and good luck holding out on the price, and that one day, with inflation, the market WILL recover enough where that car will be worth what he's asking. And by then, I'll be retired and my $349.22 non-COLA'ed monthly pension check from my years at Boeing might just buy me a case of Ice-House!
IMO - Let him keep the car. What he paid in the past is irrelevant to its value today and should not even be an issue.
Put it this way... Mom & Pop Hardware cannot buy all of their inventory at Home Depot and expect to sustain their business.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
You can't "match the numbers" without a factory build sheet, but you can tell if it's the right TYPE of engine and the right YEAR (that is, you can tell if it's a correct engine but not if it's the exact one they put in at the factory).
What you need is the SUFFIX letters after the engine # on the right front cylinder head machine pad. So a 1979 350 would have a suffix code of CNA, or CNJ, or CNI, CNK, CNM, CNN, CRE. That's what you need to ask him.
I'd treat the car as either a fake or as a NOM engine. If it's really sharp, price seems okay. But it's not an SS, and it's not a big block, there's no build sheet, no block ID suffixs, so neither is it a high dollar car, therefore.
The paint was driver's quality at best (some orange peel, some rust bubbling in the typical locations, and some bumps and bruises around the nose piece). Needs a new dash, headliner, and rear package shelf (as advertised) as well as some window trim pieces and all new rubber required for the front end (not mentioned). I haven't checked to see how the auction went, but the bidding was around $9-10K when I last looked, and I'd say that is about right. It's an RS, but as you say, it's not a Z28 nor is it an SS. I told the guy I was going to keep on looking.
This dealer won't go away. He sent me this Ebay link to a '65 Lemans convertible. It's basically just a classified ad with an asking price of $21,900 which is wishful thinking, and that's being kind. Apparently, the dealer's thinking is, "Asking price = sale price. And, if this car is worth $21,900 then mine has to worth that, if not more."
The fact that the dealer has had this '65 Tempest sitting in his warehouse for a year now is all the proof you need that it's priced too high. And, the more birthday cakes he buys for it, the less money it's making for him.
BTW, the Home Depot and the mom & pop hardware store is a great analogy. Hard to believe this dealer doesn't "get" that.
Yeah, your dealer's '65 with the 326 is worth more. But that doesn't mean this thing is worth $21,900. My guess is that if the 326 really is worth $17K, this one's worth less than half that? And I'm sure if you looked closely, you'd find all sorts of things wrong with it.