What is this thing worth?

trowto

I am interested in your Catalina. Please contact me at trowto@verizon.net. Thank you.

tomattampa

I have a 1974 European Version Mercedes Benz diesel station wagon vin # 11510212352817 and cannot seem to find out any history on it because it is pre 1981. How can I get it appraised? I am in Tampa, Florida and would like to sell it as is. It runs but needs some tlc. Was stored in an airplane hanger for approx 15 years and garaged for all but 1 of the last 5 years.

fintail

This is difficult - as far as I know there was no factory built wagon on the W115 platform, so you have an aftermarket conversion. Is it a high roof ambulance type, or a traditional wagon style? Is there any badging or identification anywhere on the body as to who made it? It is likely from a German or British builder, likely Binz or Crayford. Is it a 240D or 300D, or maybe an unusual (and slow) 200D or 220D?

This page has it as a 220D

If it isn't rusty, it has some value, albeit modest, as it is a very rare car and someone will want it, especially if it is a normal station wagon style. I've never seen a low roof W114/115 wagon before, something like that probably exists in no more than a couple dozen units these days...while the high roof types are a little more common, but still obscure. But it needs to be complete and not rotten. You should probably look for your nearest chapter of the Mercedes-Benz Club of America, someone there will be able to help and hopefully put the car in good hands.

tomattampa

It is a conventional station wagon design based on the 220D series and the classic/collectable specialist at the local Mercedes dealer so intrigued by it that he offered to help me market it, although I still was not able to find out from him who could appraise it for me. I'm concerned that he is setting me up to sell it to people he knows for much less than it may be worth.

My problem is trying to find some disinterested third party qualified professional appraiser to give me some idea of what it is worth. There is very little rust on it as it had been in storage for many years just surface rust plus some minor damage from the collapse of the airplane hanger where it was stored-a ding in the fender and some peeling of surface paint on the roof.

The documents that came with it including the computer punch cards which seem to indicate that it was custom fabricated in Brussels, Belgium and imported to the US.
If you can provide further info and pictures would help I could send you an invite to a Picassa web album which I can create of the car.

The people I have talked to in the local MB club in the past were not able to provide any useful information but it's been a couple of years since I last tried and since I'll have time today I'll do some more detective work.

My biggest concern is that I need to somehow get an honest appraisal so I won't wind up screwing myself and selling it for much less than it is worth.

Any tips on how to approach marketing it would be greatly appreciated. I just want to sell it as is as I need to take the money and fix up my WInnebago LeSharo RV.

fintail

That's a tough one...there's a very limited market for such a car in North America. Most appraisers will have never worked with anything remotely similar - there will be no similar past sales to compare with on this continent, and very few even back in the homeland. You might do best by simply listing it on ebay and letting the Euro buyers have at it - a non raised roof W115 wagon is extremely rare, and someone on the continent will want it. Set a reserve or maybe even add a high "buy it now" for kicks, and see what the market does. I wouldn't worry about shorting yourself...it's not worth an outrageous fortune, and a market like an auction with European exposure should create a fair price. You might get a bidding war, I know nice fintail Universal wagons have earned respectable bids on ebay.

Mr_Shiftright

Here's what you do:

Put the car on eBay with LOTS of photos and detailed description, being careful not to claim anything you cannot verify.

Then put a high reserve on the car, a price you'd just LOVE it get

Then run the auction and never, ever, reveal the reserve to anyone who asks.

If you get the reserve price, you're a happy man

If you don't, and say 10-20 people have bid on the car from around the world, and THEY only reached X dollars, then I'd say the car is worth X dollars--the world has voted on the value of your car.

Now, since the auction may "fail" and not meet reserve, are you out the $100 or so bucks?

No. What you do is contact the last highest bidder and try to cut a deal off line, or....re-run the car with no reserve (highest bidder gets it) at a starting price that is the same as the last high bid.

This is cheaper than an appraiser and quite frankly, if you the seller starts to argue with the results of the auction, you aren't thinking straight, because.....the value of ANY car is determined by *buyers*, not by sellers, or appraisers, or dealers, or price guides.

tomattampa

Thanks for the tips. I've also gotten some great tips from a person who answered when I called Hagerty's Cars.

I'll pursue a strategy of seeking a qualified appraiser in the Tampa Bay area and once I have some idea of the range of its worth, I'll go with your EBay idea which is the initial thought I had as well.

Just curious, what is your idea of "...not worth an outragious fortune..."? Less than $5K or what?

Thanks again

fintail

I am probably not the best appraiser...however, if the car is complete and structurally sound, it could bring around 5K or even marginally more to a Euro buyer, but I think you'd have to hunt high and low to find such a buyer on this continent. It's a car that really begs to go home, it won't be appreciated by more than a few die-hards here. In Germany or Benelux, there'd be enough of a group to fight for it. I know there are specific W114/115 clubs in Germany and Netherlands.

I like Shifty's ebay strategy, it has no real risk, and it would probably cost less to try than appraisal too.

duff333

Good morning all.

I'm looking two 1972 Olds Cutlasses:
- 1972 442 hardtop with 350-4v. 45K miles in very good shape with no rust. Good paint, interior in very good shape. It's all there. No AC. Definite no# 2 car

- 1972 cutlass convertible 100K. In good "survivor" shape - - all original with no motor/tranny rebuild. Runs well, paint is good, some small rust spots but nothing serious. Also a 350-4V. Probably a solid #3 - - runs good but may need some work as compared to the hardtop.

What do you think would be the value of each car?
Thanks in advance!!!

omarman

Jflemmons could really help sort out the model/trim specifics for the cars and model years you're looking at since he worked at an Olds dealership during that era.

Shifty has posted plenty of info regarding vehicle condition and accurate rating numbers. There could be a substantial gap in both cost and labor between a #3 and #2 car...a/k/a the expense of "getting there from here."

Any pics available for the 2 cars you're looking at? Or failing that, can you link to any comparable cars up for sale online now?

EDITED TO ADD: Okay I forget...who's stuck holding the robe and scepter for predicting auction results again? Ha! There was an attempted brevet promotion (and shipping charge!) over the Mighty Mace Of Auction Results a few days ago...

duff333

They're actually both on Ebay. One is white and the other Red with white convertible top in Maryland. I'm hoping to look at both this afternoon (both within 15 miles of me) and re[ort back to a friend of mine who is interested.

I've also always found the '72 Olds Cutlass attractive. In this case it's a contrast between a convertible with AC (needs a charge they say...) but in less desirable shape than the 442 hardtop - - although certainly not perfect.

Thanks for responding.

texases

"a convertible with AC (needs a charge they say...) "

Just had a discussion on this - if it just 'needs a charge', they probably would have done that. More likely a substantial leak somewhere.

qbrozen

posting the links to the auctions would be very helpful in determing their value.

omarman

They're actually both on Ebay. One is white and the other Red with white convertible top in Maryland.

Just poking around ebay I saw these 2 cars which match your description:

White '72 Olds 442 in Aberdeen, MD.
VIN # 3G87H2M183672 decodes as:
Year: 1972
Division: Oldsmobile
Series: Cutlass S
Body: Holiday Hardtop (2 door)
Engine: 350 (5.7) V8 2BBL
Plant: Lansing, Michigan
Serial Number: 183672

Red '72 Olds Cutlass Convertible in Edgewood, MD
VIN # 3J67K2M236276 decodes as:
Year: 1972
Division: Oldsmobile
Series: Cutlass Supreme
Body: Convertible (2 door)
Engine: 350 (5.7) V8 4BBL
Plant: Lansing, Michigan
Serial Number: 236276

duff333

Those are the 2. I actually just got back in. I only saw the convertible. It started right up and idled strong but no tags and thus no ride in it. The paint was OK to good in most places but there were several small rust spots, nothing major, and some rust along the trunk edges. Bumbers were straight but faded. Nothing horrible but whenever I see a car in person it never looks as good as the pics. Interior was fair - - one rip as advertized, slightly dirty but overall in decent shape for a 40 yr old survivor. The owner was a nice guy and had a couple other old cars on his property. He han't done much of anything with the car since buying 4 mos ago - - said he bought another convertible and this had to go. He said a can of freon would last the summer as far as AC according to previous owner. I'd guess $9K tops.

Never found the other car! It was right off a major highway but got lost after leaving the 1st place and it was hot and my girlfriend wanted something to drink so I u-turned and went home.

qbrozen

Can't profess to know much about these at all. I will say that the 350 is probably too little power for these beasts, though.

Anyway... my gut is telling me the current bid of $7500 is about correct on the convertible. And, is it just the pics, or is the passenger door a different color? May have been replaced or resprayed at some point. Not a big detractor, but noticeable.

The hardtop? Well, again, too bad about the engine on this one. I think he's dreaming at $17k. It looks good, but probably not very fun to drive. I might be off, but I'm going to hit this one at $10k.

My guesses are just that, guesses. I value cars completely from the gut with very little real-world experience. So take it for what its worth. I do have a pretty good track record, though.

texases

I wouldn't worry about the 350 being enough for just driving around. We had a '69 Cutlass with the 350, it was more than adequate. We actually had a '72 Maserati Indy at the same time, the Cutlass was much faster off the line. I don't know if the 350 suffered much by the '72 emissions controls, though. I would like the coupe, I'm not big on convertibles, and it'd be pretty flexi.

ghulet

if I could count the times I've heard/seen 'A/C just needs a charge'.....
Still, A/C working or not wouldn't be a factor to me if I were buying a 40 year-old toy. The majority of my 'regular' cars have had marginal or non-functional air (one had factory no-air).

andre1969

The address for that other place that has the hardtop coupe is: 630 South Philadelphia Boulevard, Aberdeen, MD. Route 40, going south. Off in the distance, I can see the power lines for what I believe is Amtrak's Northeast Corridor.

At least, that's where those pictures were taken...unless the car got moved someplace else?

I'm curious as to whether that '72 442 is really just a 350-2bbl? That's still enough engine to move the car, I would've thought that the 442 would at least have still come with a 4-bbl.

**Edit: Nope...looking it up online, looks like for 1972, the 442 was just a handling and appearance package that gave you a better suspension, wheels, etc. Engines were a 160 hp 350-2bbl, 180 hp 350-4bbl, or 250 hp 455-4bbl. The W-30 was still offered though, and that got you a 300 hp 455.

qbrozen

The top dog 350 in '72 was all of 200 hp, according to wiki. It could have even less, as andre pointed out above.

Mr_Shiftright

I agree $7500--$8500 is about market on the convertible. Looks like a low #3 car.

duff333

I see the white hardtop went for $13K. I'm pretty sure it was a 4 barrel.

Having seen it, I would think for $8K or so the convertible wouldn't be bad. It probably would last the new owner a fair amount of time and for those looking for a car of this ilk without having $12-15K to spend it may not be bad. I told my friend, who has a larger budget, to pass on it.

A few years ago I drove a '72 Buick Skylark with a 350-2V and it did seem slow but then again the engine was missing pretty noticeably. On the other hand I drove a '74 Lemansa few times back in 1976 with a 350 4 barrell and it had plenty of get up and go. I was surprised to see from above that the 4 barrel only added 20 HP and no additional torque.

andre1969

On the other hand I drove a '74 Lemansa few times back in 1976 with a 350 4 barrell and it had plenty of get up and go. I was surprised to see from above that the 4 barrel only added 20 HP and no additional torque.

4-bbl carbs can be funny things, sometimes. Often, they'll only bump up the peak hp by a little bit, and sometimes peak torque stays the same or actually goes down! But usually, the 4-bbl will give the car a broader hp and torque curve. So, to use a made-up example, a 350-2bbl might have 160 hp @ 4400 rpm while the 4-bbl has 180 @ 4400. But, the 4-bbl might still have 175 hp @ 5500 rpm, while the 2-bbl has dropped off to 130.

Also, I don't think the 4-bbl always makes much of an improvement in 0-60 time, although it may help more with the quarter mile, top speed, and high-speed passing.

As for the '74 LeMans, my old car book shows three different 350's that year. 155 hp (presumably the 2-bbl), 170 hp (4-bbl most likely) and a 200 hp model with a hotter 4-bbl (the one used in the Ventura-based GTO, but optional elsewhere). I wonder if the '74 LeMans you drove might have had the better 350-4bbl?

I've heard that Buick V-8's aren't always fast, but they're torquey, and sort of a slow type of powerful. So, if you put a 350-2bbl in a 3500 lb Skylark, you might get 0-60 in 12 seconds, but if you put that same engine in a 4200 lb LeSabre, the extra 700 lb of weight wouldn't slow it down any. If that makes sense?

Oh, and I have a '76 Grand LeMans with a 350-4bbl. That year, according to my old car book at least, the 4-bbl gets you a whopping 5 hp more than the 2-bbl...165 versus 160. Wow. Sad thing is, mine has actually been built up a bit from stock, although I have no idea how much hp it really has. Yet, I also have a 1979 New Yorker with a 150 hp 360-2bbl, that would take it from 0-60. The LeMans does seem to come into its own at higher speeds, though.

garv214

I see the white hardtop went for $13K. I'm pretty sure it was a 4 barrel.

I am not so sure. In the earlier years (1968-69) Olds used a Red aircleaner for the 4 barrel cars and a black one for the 2 barrel cars. That may have changed for 1972 however, I would have to consult my Olds book at home.

In my experience a 350 2 barrel is a pretty ..er...tame... experience. $13K is very good money for that car IMO.

parm

1967 Firebird

Is this a stripped-down model the seller is puffing up to make it out like it's a real hot rod? I'm mean I know this was a real model and everything, but how potent was the HO 326? And, a 2-speed Powerglide transmission. Are you kidding me? I didn't even know GM was still using that by '67. How "high performance" can a 2-speed be?

Other than that, this car looks nice, but is it really worth $34,900?

Mr_Shiftright

Consulting Shifty's REALOTOMETER (that's pronounced re-AL-o-TOM-eter) we notice that the biggest engine that year was a 400, worth considerably more than a 326 HO (30% add on vs. 10%).

Also we noticed that this isn't a Camaro :P

Soooo, if this car is super-nice, I'm thinkin' $25000--$26000 is all the money here.

Neat car, though. It's begging for a 4-speed however.

andre1969

I'm mean I know this was a real model and everything, but how potent was the HO 326?

285 hp, according to the ad. Not a real screamer, but probably not too bad, considering the light weight. As for the Powerglide, I think that transmission was actually offered up through the early 1970's! In fact there was one year in there, either 1969 or 1970, where Pontiac started offering a Pontiac 350 and Powerglide in the Catalina! Can't remember if it was the standard engine or a credit option, though.

When the big cars got redesigned for 1971, I think they only offered THM350's and THM400's, but the Powerglide might have continued on in smaller cars like the Nova, Chevelle, and Camaro, and their assorted derivatives. By 1973, when the midsized cars got redesigned, I think they went Hydramatic all the way (unless you got a manual, and few buyers did). My guess is that by that by 1973, if the Powerglide was still around in the smaller cars, it was very rarely ordered.

Didn't the Chevy Vega offer a reduced-weight version of the Powerglide for a few years, as well?

texases

That Powerglide just brought up an old memory of me driving my sister's '68 ish Camaro with a Powerglide - I was amazed it only had 2 gears!

Mr_Shiftright

Depends on the engine I guess....on some of the real torque monsters, you could use second gear to start out and skip-shift to 4th, and do that all day long. So that was like a 2-speed automatic.

I never used 1st gear in my Porsche 928, except occasionally to silence upstart vintage 911s.

parm

That Powerglide just brought up an old memory of me driving my sister's '68 ish Camaro with a Powerglide - I was amazed it only had 2 gears!

I know you've slept since then, but do you remember anything about how it drove with just two speeds? I'm curious whether it could "kick down" to pass. Would like to know how well it performed when you stomped on it while going 40 or 50. With only two gears, I'm guessing both must have had fairly tall ratios. Anybody know what the final drive ratio was? (Andre, bet you know).

Geez, I think even Schwinn's Orange Crate stingray bike (with the shifter mounted between your legs!) had more than 2-speeds. :P

texases

"do you remember anything about how it drove with just two speeds?"

Sorry, Parm, I was just happy to remember she had one! This was in about 1972 or so...I do remember not being impressed with the power, but I never took it out on the freeway. I don't think she had it long, she was VERY hard on her cars (my first car was her old '65 Mustang, holed piston included).

andre1969

With only two gears, I'm guessing both must have had fairly tall ratios. Anybody know what the final drive ratio was? (Andre, bet you know)

Sorry, unfortunately I don't know the answer to that one. My guess though, is that they would have made a 2.73:1 axle standard with a 3-speed automatic, and somewhere around a 3.08:1 or so standard with the 2-speed? Or maybe even a bit shorter?

Not sure about the gear ratios in the transmission for GM, but with Mopar ,the 3-speed Torqueflite had a 2.45:1 for first, 1.45:1 for second, and 1.00:1 for third. I think the Powerflite was around 1.72:1 for first, and 1.00:1 for second. GM's ratios were most likely similar. For some reason I want to say one of the THM's had a 2.48:1 first gear, while another had a 2.52:1 first, and the lightweight THM200 that came along later had a 2.74:1 first?

As for performance, that 2-speed automatic tended to hurt GM's mid- and full-sized cars in Consumer Reports tests. I remember them testing a 1968 Impala with a 307/Powerglide, and 0-60 came up in 14.5 seconds. In contrast, Ford and Mopar were more in the 11-12 second range with their 302's and 318's, and 3-speed automatics. And the Pontiac Catalina, thanks to a 3-speed automatic and a big 400, was more like 10 seconds. No doubt the 307 didn't help out much here. Maybe an optional 327 would have leveled the playing field, but CR was testing base V-8's here.

I also vaguely remember a test that had a Buick Special with a 350 and a 2-speed, and a Mopar intermediate with a 318 and 3-speed automatic. The Buick did 0-60 in around 11.5 seconds, versus 10 for the Mopar. There were a couple other cars in that test, but only the Buick and Mopar are coming to mind.

Mr_Shiftright

I vaguely remember two very tall gears, with a substantial RPM drop between shifts.

fintail

When I was in high school, a friend of mine had a 69 Nova with a 307/2 speed. I remember on hard acceleration, it would stay in 1st until maybe 50 or so, and then dramatically shift into second. It seemed fast enough, but maybe just because the engine was wound up.

parm

Well, with only 2 speeds to play with, I suspect a Powerglide car isn't going to be a stellar performer off the line, at mid-range or at the top end. And, I’m guessing fuel economy wasn’t its strong suit either – all of which begs the question, “By the mid-1960’s, why did GM bother with it in the first place?” It couldn’t have been THAT much cheaper to produce. I would assume that 1st gear has to be fairly tall which would be fine around town. But, on the interstate at around 70 (assuming a '67 Firebird, or whatever, can be driven comfortably at that speed), I'd be afraid the final ratio wouldn't be tall enough and you'd feel like the powertrain was constantly wound up tighter than an Amish girl’s mother on prom night (so to speak).

When it was first developed, I suppose a 2-speed transmission was adequate before interstates and 70 mph+ speeds were routine. But, by the early to mid 1960’s, a Powerglide just seems so antiquated. Other than dear old Grandma, why would anyone in 1965 and later with the means to afford an automatic want one with only two speeds???

garv214

I had a 1968 Olds Cutlass Supreme with a 350 and a 4 barrel. Even with only 2 speeds, it would smoke the stock 78 series tires (not so much after we put some wider 60 series tires on it though...). It would really start to accelerate hard around 40 mph with its one shift hitting around 70 mph. I ran it down the 1/4 mile at the local dragstrip at 16.5 and 85mph.

I had a good friend that had a 1968 Chevelle with a 327 and a 4 barrel with a powerglide as well. His car would push you back into your seat, but would shift at 50 mph. I think he had a 3.31 rear end or something along those lines, so it had more low end grunt.

I would agree with Shifty, that Firebird is begging for a 4 speed. It is a NICE looking car. Personally, I wouldn't let the 2 speed detract me. I just wouldn't pay a 4 speed price for a 2 speed car.

garv214

link title

$7000 down the drain... WTH, for that kind of money, at least they could have finished painting the bumble bee stripe. I think the seller would have been better advised to leave the car in primer and give the next buyer a $7K credit towards painting it... :lemon: :lemon: :lemon:

parm

I just recently renewed my subscription to Hemmings/CPI value guide and haven't received my first booklet yet, but NADA shows the following values for a '67 Firebird convertible with the 326 HO and rally wheels (no 4-speed):

Avg retail: $27,750
High retail: $50,750

Just based on the photos (which we all know aren't always accurate), I'd peg this car's condition to be somewhere between Average and High. Given NADA's history, I'm sure the values above are exaggerated. Still, using them as a guide would put its value around $39,000 - which makes this dealer's $34,900 asking price seem reasonable - if not convenient and that fact alone suggests to me it's probably high. On the other hand, the seller can use NADA to support his price all day long. And, if he's well-healed enough, he can wait until someone wants the car bad enough to let NADA rationalize it. No? Shifty, I'm sure you see this all the time?

bhill2

But, by the early to mid 1960’s, a Powerglide just seems so antiquated.

Yes, I never could figure why they kept that transmission so long either. I think that Ford phased out their 2-speed Fordomatic in about '63, and I don't think Chrysler used a 2-speed beyond the mid-50s.

I have to say I liked the Powerglide. That was, however, because I didn't have one. In 1964 my father bought a new Rambler. For some reason that he probably didn't admit to mom he bought a V-8. It had the 3-speed "Flash-o-matic". With that combination I could actually outdrag a 327 Impala with Powerglide from a stoplight (I assume I also could have taken a 283/Powerglide Chevelle but never tried). Of course, losing to a Rambler meant you died from the shame. I had a lot of fun in that car but only because my father either never found out or decided he didn't want to know.

Mr_Shiftright

NADA prices are not to be regarded seriously in any purchase. I have no idea where they get their data but it is absurdly out of whack. I canceled my subscription for this reason---it's useless to the appraiser. Be forewarned, do not use this book if you are shopping. Your CPI book is wayyyyyy better. Good choice!

For $50,000 you could buy TWO restored '67 Firebird convertibles!!!

Maybe the NADA book is offering a "buy one get one free" deal? :P

Now you know why it's free on the internet.

parm

Ironically, my CPI book came today. For a 1967 Firebird 326 HO convertible, CPI shows:

Good (#3): $12,700
Excellent (#2): $24,125

The values above confirm that your earlier estimate of $25K to $26K appears indeed to be all the money. But, here's the thing, the dealer is asking $34,900. That's a pretty big gap and puts me in "no man's land" which is where I always end up.

Either dealers aren't in the business of selling cars or they've never heard of CPI. Both scenarios seem equally far-fetched.

Mr_Shiftright

The price is merely the dealer exercising his First Amendment Rights. If he actually owns the car, he can ask an unrealistically high price, then graciously drop it after the buyer so skillfully bargains him down, to merely 10% over retail, and he can come out fat while seeming magnanimous and more than fair. :P

If he has the car on consignment (more likely) he can, and often will, sit on a car for a year if the consignor lets him. He's collecting floor rent every month, he has a nice car in the showroom to attract attention, and if he's smart he has enough floor rents to pay his overhead each month.

If the consignor gets itchy, then the dealer drops the price.

Sometimes it's the consignor who has jacked up the price against the advice of the dealer. I've seen this happen often---then the market slowly delivers reality to the seller, thus holding the dealer blameless when the car sells for $26,000.

parm

1965 GTO Wannabe

Okay. This car has special meaning to me. I learned to drive in a red 1965 Tempest with a white convertible top. The main difference between mine and this one is that mine (actually, my dad's) had a red interior with front bench seat. Naturally, I wanted it to be a GTO. The dealer has dropped the price down to $23,900 and has had this car (they own it) for about a year. I'm guessing because it's not so much a clone as it is a Tempest with GTO badging. The 326 engine has actually been rebuilt with some nice pieces added and it reportedly runs very well (I talked to the dealer today) - but, a 389 tri-power it ain't. So, it's not even really trying to make a mechanical attempt to replicate a GTO.

The dealer said it's not perfect and mentioned pitting of the headlight bezels and the rear metal panel underneath the trunk lid has some issues. But, overall it's pretty tidy.

So, how do you value something like this? Obviously, it's no where near being a GTO. But, I think it has more appeal than a stock Tempest convertible. The Torque Thrust wheels alone beat the snot out of the quasi-mag Pontiac wheel covers (which I thought were painfully lame) our Tempest had. And, the warmed up motor in this one has to be plus.

In comparing this car to the '67 Firebird 326 HO, I'm trying decide which would be the better investment. The Tempest is substantially less expensive, but I anticipate constantly apologizing that it's not a real GTO. By contrast, the Firebird is an original numbers matching car with documentation, but it's more $$$.

Being more picky, the Tempest has power steering, power brakes and an upgraded aftermarket sound system. The Firebird has power steering, but manual brakes. However, it has cruise control (non-working due to a leaking rubber diaphragm) which is pretty rare for a '67 Firebird.

What's this Tempest worth and, when compared to the Firebird, which is the better investment?

garv214

Hey Parm

First of all, I would like to take the word investment off of the table here (unless you are referring to your personal enjoyment as the investment) simply because cars (baseball cards, comic books, beanie babies...) in general are a pretty poor investment.

Having said that... Which car would you rather drive or see in your garage? They are both nice, but what is the hook for you (what draws you to these cars). The Tempest obviously has some nostalgic value (which isn't a bad thing, just don't overpay for nostalgia), but if you are going to have to apologize for it not being a GTO, then you should get a GTO. I think the Tempest is an interesting car and may be a more usable cruiser than the GTO. I like the Firebird too, I am a sucker for side stripes I guess... But if the dealer isn't willing to deal in a big way, the car really isn't for sale (see the Cadillac discussion).

They are both nice cars.

I would recommend figuring out which car scratches your itch the best, and then get one in the best condition that you are willing to pay. At your price point, there are a LOT of fun cars to choose from!

parm

That's a good point. Perhaps "investment" wasn't the best choice of words. I agree cars like these aren't a "money-maker" or a solid return vehicle (no pun intended!). I mean, we're not talking about a Duesenburg J or a Mercedes SSK or anything like that. I guess what I was asking is, "Which is the better car for the money?" which is obviously dependent on the main "unknown" at this point - ie., the purchase price. Plus, nobody wants to take a major financial bath and feel like a chump when its time to sell.

As much as I really like that Tempest, I'm just afraid I'd get tired of "explaining away" that it's not a GTO. One of the nice things about having a collector car is showing it off at shows, etc. A lot of cruise nights and shows have awards and I'd feel the car was being entered under false pretenses the minute I rolled in. Guess I could get one of these information boards made up, but where does it end? Obviously, I couldn't join the GTO club (not that I'd want to). So, to some degree (in the words of Keith Martin), this car is neither fish nor fowl. And, that's probably why this dealer has had this car for a year. Buyers aren't willing to pay more than Tempest money, but the dealer must think its worth more.

By contrast, the Firebird 326 HO is a no-excuses car. While it has some condition issues, at least the car is what it is and it's not pretending to be something else. Of course, you have to open your wallet a lot more if you want it sitting in your garage. :confuse:

andre1969

As much as I really like that Tempest, I'm just afraid I'd get tired of "explaining away" that it's not a GTO. One of the nice things about having a collector car is showing it off at shows, etc.

Eh, you get used to it after awhile, I guess. Sort of like when I explain to people that no, my '79 5th Ave doesn't have a big-block under the hood, and no, it's not a high-performance engine...it just sounds that good because the muffler fell off! :P

Of the two, I like the '65 Tempest better, mainly because it's a bigger car with a more useable back seat and a bigger trunk. But, that's just me.

qbrozen

So just remove the superfluous badging. Problem solved.

It does like nice enough. Pretty car. That's alot of dough, though. It "feels" like more of a high teens car. Like $18k?

texases

I like the Tempest, except for 1. no a/c, and 2. no floor shift.

parm

Yeah, I hear ya. Actually, I've come around to a column shift. But, for years, I wouldn't even look at a car (unless it was a Cadillac or something like that) without a floor shifter. The lack of A/C is less of a concern given that it's a convertible. Spending some cash with Vintage Air would take car of that and probably result in an A/C system that performs better than a factory system.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd say all the money for this car is about $17,500, at best. Upon closer inspection, I might come down 20%.

The dealer's "logic" is spurious IMO--true, his car is selling for "half the price" of a GTO, but alas, a Pontiac Tempest is only worth 1/3rd the price of a GTO.

I suppose I could sell you a fake Rolex for 1/2 the price of a new one, but what does that mean?

Clones are the poorest of "investments", and the first to depreciate. This car, as you so rightly said, is neither a Tempest nor a GTO, and therefore has no place to hang its hat when it comes crunch time in the economy.

It would be wiser to buy a street-rod or custom Pontiac Tempest with big, big HP and 4-speed, then to buy a rather tame Tempest pretending it is something it isn't. GTOs symbolize "power", and this car is lacking it.

It's more like a fat guy on a racing bicycle but wearing all the right clothing. :P

This is a car you buy to drive, enjoy and use up. So pay "nice old used car" money for it, not "classic" money.