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Comments
I swore never to purchase this feature from the dealer. However the price seems very competitive. When you break down the price over a 10-year period (assuming you keep the vehicle that long) it is actually cheaper. The break-even point is 5 to 6 years (compared to Krown, Rust Check, Oil Gard and others). Annual re-applications are free. Also, it may even add some sound insulation.
What are your opinions? Picking-up the Matrix in a couple days. Thanks, Peter.
Say you pay $1,000 for the "service", If you invest that money you will have $2,000 in 10 years. Which would you rather have a) $2,000 in your pocket, and a car that probably won't have any rust or b) no money and a car that also probably won't have any rust. Also remember that in 10 years you probably won't worry as much about minor blemishes.
A new car will generally not rust in 10 years. Many car makers provide 10-12 year warranties against rust. Look around at cars from the 90's and you won't see much rust. Back in the 70's and 80's cars would start to rust in a few years, but no longer. My Integra is 12 years old, and has been in snow country the whole time. It is never garaged, and it looks great. I even had somebody ask me if it was a new car a few years ago. (it is the only one in town so people don't know the body style - not too many foreen cars in these parts, in fact not too many cars - mostly trucks)
Little tidbit of info. Often on cars with all-disc brakes, they'll put a little "mini-drum" setup for the parking brake on the rear discs. I think it has to do with drums having more initial resistance.
Just FYI, I got my car from Laurel Toyota Carmax in Laurel MD. They sell a lot and seem to always have several. In addition, they are a fixed price dealer, so no haggling or hassles.
Truly weird that Toyota isn't selling ( without special ordering) that configuration in New England, where winter roads are notoriously slippery and ABS very useful.
They are aware that the front brakes will do most of the work in smaller cars like these, and since these cars are also cheaper, it is cheaper to put on drum brakes in the rear, which will also be cheaper to maintain over the life of the car. I agree tho, the discs do look better in the rear...having said all that, I recently had a matrix XR for the weekend, and the brakes were really great, so in my opinion, there is no need for discs in the rear on this car.
In San Francisco, it is hard to find these cars for sale at all, especially the XRS or the 4WD, the two I am most interested in. Is it easier in other parts?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Imo ABS is very useful at high speed on dry roads. OK on hiways with ice/snow. But around town on ice snow it makes it near in possible to stop... breaks just click away and you keep on going.
I would much rather have the choice to pump away myself and possible let snow build up in front of wheels to stop.
I think that there is no perfect solution. ABS can help many times and other times it is a hindrance.
Here's what the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (the folks that do real crash tests, etc.) says about Antilock brakes at
http://www.hwysafety.org/safety%5Ffacts/qanda/antilock.htm
"Antilock brakes are designed to help drivers avoid crashes. When a driver hits regular brakes hard, the wheels may lock and the vehicle may skid. Wheel lockup can result in longer stopping distances, loss of steering control and, when road friction is uneven, loss of stability if the vehicle begins to spin.
The main advantage of antilocks is that they can reduce these problems on wet and slippery roads.
Antilocks shouldn't make much difference in stopping distances on dry roads, although they can enhance vehicle stability and allow drivers to maintain steering control during emergency stops when conventional brakes might allow wheel lockup and skidding."
Facts:
1- ABS does not create additional traction, therefore, in the straight line, it will not result a shorter breaking distance with respect to a non-ABS car driven by someone who does not panic and knows how to brake correctly without locking.
2- In an emergency situation, one of these is likely to happen: a) there is no place to avoid the obstacle, b) there is a way out to escape the danger.
Everybody still follows me? Agree? Let's move on.
Here is the consequence for someone who has a decent short reaction time:
- case 2a): you are going to brake in a straight line, so ABS will not help.
- case 2b): you may avoid the obstacle by steering without the need to slowdown, so ABS will not help either.
Bruno
Bruno
The production of Matrix XRS automatic was higher at first to see how well the higher output model with an automatic tranny would do. It appears it sells better than they expected, so production of this car will be increased but it cannot happen overnight, sadly. It's a 2-3 month process to make the change to a higher percentage build of a model due to parts and machinery suppliers needing to make their changes too.
This may be why some dealers are trying to push the 6-speed -- because they know the automatic pipeline is quite empty and will be for a while. Once they start cranking them out, we'll be in good form!
In fact, if demand significantly exceeds the 70K capacity, Toyota plans to cut back on Canadian Corolla production to increase Matrix production, and then import some Corollas from Japan.
2) Cars with cable actuated parking brakes can have rear disks -- my Honda Civic SI has them. There is a little drum inside the disc rotor assembly. Cost a fortune to replace when it all seized up. Drums are definitely cheaper.
3) My .02 on the ABS debate: the ABS computer should be able to stop the car faster than anyone manually: it senses thousands of times a second whether the wheels are about to lock up and it makes adjustments as needed. I'd find it hard to believe that a human being could keep the tires so close to locking up for the entire stop without backing off the maxiumum threshold or going into a brief skid. On the other hand, though, I've done a lot of severe winter driving and sometimes it does seem helpful to be able to lock the wheels. Maybe what we need is a button that disengages ABS for those times we think we don't want it?
I might add that the sunroof isn't factory installed in Long Beach, CA. That's a transit port of entry. If you are having a sunroof added that is not yet IN the car when produced, your dealership has that arranged, but it is not at the port facility. If it is built into the car (and is listed on the MSRP when you get the car) then it's put on when it's built in Canada.
Sorry to raise the hairs on the back of your neck! I sould have been better specific.
Did you sleep through geometry class?
You can check it out if you wish.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Thank you for contacting Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc.
We appreciate [the opportunity] to address your inquiry.
All new Toyota vehicles sold in the continental United States are pre-ordered by Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc., based on current market trends and demand levels.
The ability to place a "custom" order through a dealership to the factory is limited to the RAV 4 EV at this time.
We are making efforts to expand this feature. For the time being, please visit the Build Your Own section of our website or contact your local Toyota dealership for specific model requests and option availability.
Your dealership can place a request for a unique unit to the factory, but limited to buildable options only. For example, if the model you desire is not available from the factory in white, then it cannot be ordered in white. Also, the system capacity to accept custom orders is limited, so the wait time for delivery of a custom order can vary widely.
Often times, a dealership can find a unit for you by conducting a search on the factory inventory system and arrange to acquire it from another dealership. In addition, your dealership may be able to meet your request through the installation of factory authorized accessories.
..."
This produces good results for Toyota and its customers as long as you are pretty much willing to accept what you find or wait for what's coming in...
On the other hand, most car companies that support 'build to order' are much more subject to the whims of the market and the orders they get. It must make the production and supplier issues very difficult to manage. I think that Ford and Mercedes are two companies that offer 'build to order' . I also feel that both have their quality reputations deeply in the tank relative to Toyota and Lexus.
I like Toyota's recommendation. Find a Matrix that comes as close as you can to meeting your needs in the basic areas drivetrain, transmission, trim level and live with the extras you get and back fill the ones you want and can't find.
For example, we decided we really wanted a 2WD XR with ABS in Indigo Ink or Black. Here in New England we got the special order story. However we found one in Baltimore 6 hours away. Unfortunately I couldn't get there fast enough to do a deal on it, so we are still looking around.
On the other hand, most car companies that support 'build to order' are much more subject to the whims of the market. It must make the production and supplier issues very difficult to manage. Ford and Mercedes are two companies with their quality reputations in the tank trying to compete against Toyota and Lexus.
I like Toyota's recommendation. Find a Matrix that comes as close as you can to meeting your needs in the basic areas drivetrain, transmission, trim level and live with the extras you get and back fill the ones you want and can't find.
For example, we decided we really wanted a 2WD XR with ABS in Indigo Ink or Black. Here in New England we got the special order story. However we found one in Baltimore 6 hours away. Unfortunately I couldn't get there fast enough to do a deal on it, so we are still looking around.
-it's a first year model, and risky (although still a Toyota),
-the engine seems too weak; I bet it'll get another 20-30 hp in next year's model,
-No manual; again I think Toyota will work this out by next year,
-a bit low; I can't imagine riding it in rough dirt roads (although I think it'll be good for snow/ice conditions).
My opinion is it will be a great car next year, but it's still a bit early. If anyone can convince me I'm wrong, however, please do!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
For example, I'd be interested in a 2wd auto Matrix XR, without any Toyota imposed "options". Such an animal does not exist. I have to take useless/expensive frills such as the sport package, a sunroof, and similar stuff. While some people like the ground effects, some people really hate them. That's why it's silly to make them mandatory on the XR.
Another example: my sister in Los Angeles was looking for a RAV4, with a cargo cover, but the ones in LA didn't come with the cargo cover (but came with $800 alloy wheels). The marketing brain surgeons at Toyota decided that the RAV cargo cover would be "popular" ONLY with buyers in the San Francisco Bay Area, but not with buyers in a huge area like LA! That cargo cover was $80 if it came installed with the RAV, but $400+ if bought as a part from the dealer. So after a long search, my sister ended up buying her RAV from a dealer in the SF Bay Area, rather than LA. She actually ended up saving over $1000, because the SF Bay Area RAVs also did not have the $800 alloy wheels (which she did not want).
IMHO, this business of devising hundreds of these "popular" combinations, under the guise of meeting customer needs is nothing but busy work for some people at Toyota.
My suggestion to Toyota would be to have no more than 3-4 trim levels, without any options, just like Honda; leave installation of accessories to the dealer and customer. That way customers will know what they can DEFINITELY find at the dealer. Or offer a true build to order system.
-jim
PS: I am NOT trolling, so no flames please!
Building popular, LOW volume vehicles like the Matrix in many different configurations makes it harder, not easier for customers to find what they want. Just my 2 c.
As a side note, living in the SE has to be the worst place to buy a Toyota. They add the most useless stuff to their cars and charge you more freight. The added freight charges don't make sense when the SE is quite close to the Camry plant in Kentucky and not as far from the Canada plant as California. They had a black base Matrix (would prefer the XR) equipped how I wanted it (power package, CD player, keyless entry, 16" alloy wheels, 5 speed manual) but then added a hideous graphics package (adds 285 to the price) that covers most of the side of the car. When I said I would want it taken off, the salesman had the nerve to say, "Sure, we can take it off, but we won't be liable for any damage". WTF?? I'm 22 and I can't stand these "cool" graphics packages. Who exactly are they going after with these things? There was another one that was even worse. The car was white and had some yellow and blue flames around the edge of the hood and along the front panels. Looked totally ridiculous. Being turned off by the graphics I considered going to a Cosmic Blue one that was equipped the same, but it had a big scratch on the driver's door. Instead of saying, "oh, we'll take care of that. Repaint it if necessary", I got, "That's good, means money off for you!". Uuggh...I find myself being pushed closer to buying the Aerio SX instead even though it doens't have the renowned reliability of Toyota. At least they make everything standard and only have 1 option from the factory. And their dealers don't try to force graphics packages down your throat!!
southpaw; I think I have some practical uses for AWD - lots of nearby mountains, many poorly kept dirt roads, many Natl parks, some snow in winter. But you're right; *any* car would do if driven carefully enough, and wanting a 4WD is at least in part ego and self-indulgence. One reason I liked the Matrix so much is the economy; I don't want to have a gas-guzzling SUV for 90% commuter use. But I can't get it because I think I would cry if a rock flew up and dinged the chasis. I think Toyota needs to do a bit more to live up to their 'part SUV' advertising for this model.
I do agree that Toyota is much less risk for a first year model, but hey - anyone can make mistakes. I've heard about things like rattles and the radio squealing when hitting the brakes, and the twin Pontiac Vibe is even being recalled for loose bolts (easy to fix, but really bad if you don't). While these may be minor problems, they'll probably won't exist at all in next year's model.
nippononly; my understanding is that both the smaller engine and automatic are to avoid stressing the viscous coupling. Again, I think this is something that Toyota can work out in the near future, since others already have (like Subaru ;^).
So what will I get? A RAV4. It may seem like apples and oranges to some, but in a way, I see an overlap in niche. In fact,the body of a RAV4 is a little smaller (though it sits higher and has more cargo room). But I'll probably be a bit envious whenever I see a Matrix out there!
southpaw; I think I have some practical uses for AWD - lots of nearby mountains, many poorly kept dirt roads, many Natl parks, some snow in winter. But you're right; *any* car would do if driven carefully enough, and wanting a 4WD is at least in part ego and self-indulgence. One reason I liked the Matrix so much is the economy; I don't want to have a gas-guzzling SUV for 90% commuter use. But I can't get it because I think I would cry if a rock flew up and dinged the chasis. I think Toyota needs to do a bit more to live up to their 'part SUV' advertising for this model.
I do agree that Toyota is much less risk for a first year model, but hey - anyone can make mistakes. I've heard about things like rattles and the radio squealing when hitting the brakes, and the twin Pontiac Vibe is even being recalled for loose bolts (easy to fix, but really bad if you don't). While these may be minor problems, they'll probably won't exist at all in next year's model.
nippononly; my understanding is that both the smaller engine and automatic are to avoid stressing the viscous coupling. Again, I think this is something that Toyota can work out in the near future, since others already have (like Subaru ;^).
So what will I get? A RAV4. It may seem like apples and oranges to some, but in a way, I see an overlap in niche. In fact,the body of a RAV4 is a little smaller (though it sits higher and has more cargo room). But I'll probably be a bit envious whenever I see a Matrix out there!
All I know is this, the matrix AWD and the RAV4 AWD are roughly the same curb weight, and I have had the opportunity to drive both for several days each (RAV4 AWD and matrix 2WD), and I know that the RAV4, while it is speedy enough and easy to drive around town, has trouble maintaining highway speeds up hill, and has to be pushed to down-shift and whatnot. Sometimes if the hill is steep enough, it loses speed even THOUGH it has downshifted. By way of comparison, I have also rented the new 4 cylinder camry, which has no problems staying up to speed on the very same hills.
The matrix is the same weight as the RAV, but has 25 less hp, a reduction of about 17%. I would think it would be REALLY out of breath on the highway if it had to climb.
And BTW, I like both cars a lot, and almost bought a RAV4, but you should be aware that it has less space inside than the matrix. It is shorter by a noticeable margin.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
By contrast, I don't know if i got lucky but we ordered our saturn L series sedan last year and got the three options we wanted in the color we wanted in about three weeks. That IS the only benifit of the fixed sticker price auto sale method. If I was going to get ANY mass produced, from any other brand car off a dealer lot I would walk away if they diddn't offer around invoice for a high volume model.
The base matrix seems like a good deal. The overdone front spolier on the upper trim levels looks like it would get damaged easily on parking bump stops at stores ect.
Any auto body shop can change the front bumper cover/ spolier. Paint it to match your color. if you prefer the base model bumper cover. They are just black plastic covers and are easily painted and replaced from auto accidents. Any Toyota parts dept. can order one. actually they should be stocking them to supply thier areas body shops once the matrix gets settled into the market.
I'm keeping the matrix on my shopping list to replace my commuter car next year hopefully. if this economy gets better by then.
I think Hoinda goes too far the other way, making cars with no options at all. For instance, what if you want a Civic EX coupe without a sunroof? Tough luck, all EX's have the 'roof.
Subaru is in a good spot right in the middle, they sell a lot of cars without many options, but do make some things optional if you want to wait for the right car to come along.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)