Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier

chem123

would a coupe body style be more desirable than a hatch in the handling catagory?

bsme1991

I opened the Sunday Oregonian auto section and Thomason Honda in Gladstone has seven 2002 Civic Si's.... selling for $1000 below MSRP ($18,460 sale price).
Still negotiating with wife unit

ranald

He's probably talking about chassis stiffness.

5port

Sobers

Congrats on your new Si!

PS: The Si was originally part of the "hot hatchback" formula.
Its only proper that it remains a hatchback.

chem123

What necessarily makes a hatchback have less chassis rigidity than a coupe of the same car?

himiler

Usually, hatchbacks have larger openings to design the body structure around than do coupes, which means you either have to add reinforcements (extra mass) or be willing to live with a less rigid chassis.

I'd be willing to bet that the new Si is far more rigid than the previous Si coupe, which might help to explain why it's kind of porky.

verozahl

The Si coupe is dead. Long live the Si coupe!
The porkster can't replace it.

ranald

Are there any left? Haven't they all been stolen and stripped by now?

I'm sure the porkster will do its best.

jim_loves_cars

A pink Porkster - I'd name mine Babe or Arnold!

-jim

powderfinger

I test drove an Si right after an EX. The Si is very tight and the frame seemed stiffer. Overall the car was much quieter too. Honda did do a lot of work on making the frame stiffer, the main being the addition of heavier Hi Tensile steel throughout the body.

There is an article at www.vtec.net that goes into a lot of detail on the structural improvements that were made to the body.

chem123

That's exactly what I was waiting for someone to tell me. Wanted so see how long it took for someone to back up an uninformed judgement. Yes, hatchbacks and their relatives sacrifice reinforcement for larger interior volume. Still, I would rather live with hatch as it is lighter, has more utility, and its rigidity shortcomings can be easily corrected. Yes, I am biased .

mdriver

I've seen the 2002 Si advertised for $17,800 including destination in my newspaper. Also, the local dealer has three Si's unsold for some time now. This car should have been priced at $17,800 in the first place, instead of the rediculous $19,440.

5port

I use to own a 94 Civic Si hatchback. I noticed while climbing some commercial driveway aprons that the chassis would creak and groan. My next car (Elantra GT) does not do this at all. It seems Honda finally addressed this to their credit. A stiffer chassis also improves handling.

mseals

I have one of the last 2000 Si's and it is not stripped or stolen yet! My car is stiff, and it is much stiffer now that I have added rear strut tower brace. There isn't much flex in my car at all now and there wasn't much before. I sort of like the new Si, but I am ready for a more mature looking car. I am considering an Altima 2.5S or a Jetta 1.8t GLS. I am doing my research now and hope to tell my car sometime this summer maybe. Maybe even next month.

chem123

Try an Integra Type R rear sway bar (22mm). Cheap, effective mod that will add to the rear strut tower bar effect tenfold.

powderfinger

A dealer on Ebay is selling an Si for 17,800. Boy, these cars have come down in price since they were released. Maybe the Hyundais are giving it competition.

silver_bullet

I can't see too many Si buyers cross-shopping Elantra GTs or Tiburons, but stranger things have happened. More than likely, I think Honda is seeing first hand what happens when you price a car out of its market. $19.5K + TTL for an Si is just too much for what you get.

himiler

Adding a stiffer sway bar doesn't do anything to increase the rigidity of the structure, it just reduces compliance and body roll, resulting in less weight transfer and flatter cornering.

The ITR uses front and rear lower strut tie bars to decrease flex, in addition to the front strut tower brace. A rear strut tower brace is always a good idea, but there isn't much of a relationship between that and the rear sway bar. The elimination of the moonroof probably makes as much of a difference as adding a rear strut brace.

jvkalra

Stopped by at the dealer while passing by, and noticed that the black Si in the showroom was still there, after almost 2 months. Fleet Manager said they haven't sold any yet. This is in Silicon Valley, looks like no one has $19K+ to blow on a toy.

If I were Honda, I'd get that 5-door Civic here asap. I'm beginning to see quite a few of the Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe on the street - so I guess even with all the layoffs here, people do have money for a practical, reasonably priced hatchback.

powderfinger

silver bullet,

I am shopping both cars. I was very surprised how good the GT is for the money, though, it
does not have the refinement or smoothness of the Si powertrain. But, the whole package is
pretty attractive esp the 5 door configuration. I am not planning on buying one though, because I don't think that you can get 200K out of them. (My current Si has 188K)

The dealers out there are now lying about how many cars they are selling. They think that they
can get the same 23K+ that the old Si's used to get. The new Si is a completely different type of car from the 2000 Si, and it doesn't appear as though it has generated the same enthusiasm. For what I need though, it is still a good pick.

Is 19.5K really too much? Probably about 1K too much when compared with an RSX.

nippononly

I don't think the price is too high necessarily - you get decent content at the price, and the Honda sophistication is there, but the car does not have the looks that are required in this segment. Most of this car's competition (Mini S, GTI, etc) have really distinctive looks - they look GOOD. This car looks so plain! Honda did the same thing to the SI that it did to the Integra when it produced the RSX - it made it look boring. Someone in a different thread said the RSX looks like a droid, and the SI does too.

OTOH, this means the price they will be willing to sell these cars for should drop quickly, and at $17K this car is a bargain...

mdriver

The Odyssey was recently tested by Edmunds as having a 0-60 of 7.9s. The Si is 8.1s What's wrong with this picture? A minivan out running a supposedly sport version of the Civic. Pathetic.

ranald

All depends on who's testing. There have been reviews of the RSX-S that listed 0-60 times of over 8 seconds, and I really doubt that car would lose to an Odyssey.

Times reported in reviews aren't gospel, they're just general indications of a car's quickness. After all, drivers and conditions will always vary.

IIRC weights on the Odyssey correctly, the Si has a better power-to-weight ratio, and it's a manual. The only thing about that car slower than an Odyssey would be the driver.

si2002owner

I Finally found invoice price for Civic Si 2002 which is $17.802 (including delivery charge, as listed in www.nadaguides.com ). Today on a local newspaper (houston, Texas) a dealer (Guillman Honda) advertised it for $17.888 at it was true with no gimmicks. Bought and VERY satisfied cutomer so far with 95 miles on first day. Much better ride than any other car on it's category or price range (including RSX Base, Celica GT, GTI VR6, P5, Focus SVT, Impreza 2.5, , etc). Defenitely the car is worth $18k, but not $19.5k.

sunilb

could you elaborate on why you found this to be a better ride than some of the other cars you've mentioned? specifically the RSX [due to the obvious similarities] and the GTI [due to the VW 'luxury' angle].

thanks... as it's always good to hear from someone who owns the car.

si2002owner

Well, to start with the seat is just awesome, it hold you right in place, and unlike most factory installed versions this particular one hold your shoulders as well, which is very confortable for quit turns. The suspension is very good, might not be as stiff as on a sportier car, but it's a car you wouldn't mind driving every day, or even long trips. The interior (personal opinion) looks and feels more "intuitive" everything is where it should be, and very easy acces (except for cruise control switch located behind steering wheel). And the stick shift it's weird, but very ffective. Agree with many others that it could be more performance oriented, but overall, is very well balanced between quick responses and confort.

silver_bullet

Makes me wonder how many Honda has sold since the intro. I've never seen one on the road here in Houston, so I'll have to watch for you si2002! Gillman is pretty close to where I live.

auroraboy

Wife just bought an SiR. In Canada it is called the SiR, since the Si name is reserved for the Canadian equivalent of a US EX Coupe (Here it is called the Si Coupe and comes with the 127HP motor as in US EX. There is no EX coupe in Canada, and the EX sedan comes with the lower HP motor - not 127 HP).

The Canadian SiR lists for $25,500 CND + $850 CND freight. This equals approximately $16,500 US + $550 US freight at current exchange rate.
There is no side air bag option. There are no factory options. Floor mats are included in price.

In Canada they sell the SiR in same colors as US (Yellow Pearl, Silver, black, white) + Milano red which is not available in US. Wife picked the yellow.

azaharchuk

Hey....it would be interesting to look at Honda's Canadian website....Do you know the address?

revka

and congrats to your wife for her new Honda SiR! Just curious, is the SiR also a hatchback? Btw, you may also want to check out our Civic Owner's Club. Look for a direct link in the Helpful Links on the left side of the page.

Hi azaharchuk- Here's the Honda Canadian Website. If you come across anything interesting there, feel free to share it with us at Town Hall.... Thanks.

Happy Motoring!

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Station Wagons Boards

auroraboy

The Canadian SiR is identical to the US Si. It is also a 2 dr hatchback, assembled in England, with same motor as US spec. As mentioned earlier, the side air bag option is not offered, but we get the Milano red color.

Canadian version has metric speedometer (kilometers/hr) with miles/hr also on speedometer in smaller numbers. There are no other major differences to my knowledge.

revka

Hi Folks- For those interested, here's a direct link to our new RSX vs Civic Si discussion. Got any thoughts to share on the subject?

To auroraboy- That's interesting. Thanks for filling us in. We look forward to hearing more about your Honda SiR experience.... Happy Motoring!

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Station Wagons Boards

powderfinger

FYI:

The Canadian version has some other slight differences. It has side mirror defrosters, and a low level indicator for the wiper washer fluid. Why the latter is not in the US car is a mystery, though the defroster is explainable.

There are other differences, but these are ones that stuck out to me.

revka

If people here think there are enough similarities, I would have no problem adding "SiR" to the title. Might be fun to share notes with our Canadian SiR owners. We could also start up a new Honda Civic SiR discussion; although, I'm not sure there would be enough traffic to warrant an SiR discussion by itself. What do you think? Let me know who's interested. ;-)

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Station Wagons Boards

etornado

I just bought a new 2002 Civic Si... and love it. I got the Euro Yellow... and agree that you either love the color or you don't. I do... and I like the different look of the car. I like cars that you won't see over and over on the road... and it has to be fun to drive.

I had a hard time finding the yellow... one dealer put 8k worth of extras on it and placed it in the showroom. I paid 19k... probably 1k more than I should have... but it will last forever. It is replacing my '88 CRX with 247,000 miles on it.

I was considering the RSX, but every college student seems to be buying them around here. The car has more than enough power and I'm ok with th 15inch tires... 16 would have been nice.

The car is quiet and very fun to drive... the SHIFTER IS AMAZING!!! I was wondering what it would be like on the dash... but one test drive sold me on it.

The nice thing is that there aren't really any options... it comes w/ sunroof and ABS. All I added was floor mats and LOJACK... I am very afraid that the car will be stolen. They only made about 12,000 of these... and my dealer just told me that they have discontinued the yellow... said that Honda feels it is too European for the American market. I'm glad I got it when I did... I am gonna take note of how many other yellow ones I see on the road.

The car may seem to be about 1-2k overpriced... but its a real value in the end.

chem123

I wasn't trying to say that a larger rear sway and a rear strut bar accomplish the same goal...just trying to quantify it in terms of flatness in cornering. You're right, it's not stiffer, just less "loose."

si2002owner

Good for you, now we are 2 owners talking about it... i agree with you 100%, but also must say that the seat is extremely confortable. Floormats are expensive, but VERY nice.. love that SI accent in red. I have driven it 170 miles so far, and absolutely love it.

silver_bullet

... and I was pretty impressed. I think Honda has made this car for folks like me -- 40-something enthusiasts who value smoothness as much as performance. I can see why the "kids" don't like it - no "Fast and Furious" VTEC rush like the last Si coupe. Now I'm in a real quandry: Si or MINI Cooper?

auroraboy

I agree with the other owners above. The Si (compared to the Coupe or Sedan with 1.7L engines) is much quieter, has more power across the RPM band is is fun to drive. It probably does not appeal to young 20 something males - due to higher price, and styling that you either like or dislike.

I have heard people comparing it to the Focus SVT. Here in Canada, a base SVT list for $27,240 CND + $980 for sunroof. This is $2720 CND more than the SiR.

My wife won't like me saying this,but she is 47!
She also got the Euro yellow - already have one black car, and she just traded in a silver. This left white, yellow or red, and the dealer had no red...so she went with the yellow. Not hard to miss coming down the street.

PS - Canadian price includes floormats. All we added was Honda security system,

reward

Just purchased an SI; got a great deal at 17,800 with floor mats and window tinting; hated the yellow (which my wife liked) and went with the black. Very impressed; fun to drive but quiet; Seats are comfortable and interior is unique. Default seat position is a pain (too upright) and it would be nice if there was an internal hatch release. But I love the car and after driving the SI and base model RSX am quite happy that I saved 2-3 grand (and weekly visits to the premium pump)
I am not sure why so many writers have dogged the car?? Would they really prefer a Ford Focus? (I will still be driving the SI after 150,000; can the Focus claim the same??

mdriver

The "writers" have dogged the Si when compared to the SVT, because the SVT performs like a cheap BMW while the Si barely performs any better than the unremarkably performing Civic EX. The Civic had an "average" reliability rating in 2001 according to Consumer Reports, not exactly a stellar indication. And why can Ford get 170 HP out of its 2L engine, while the Si must make do with 160 HP from its 2L. So much for iVTEC. Believe it or not, I'm a Honda fan and don't like Fords, but if you think the Si is a good performer, then you haven't driven the SVT. There's only one reason that Honda has blunted the performance of its Si: the RSX

strager

The Civic sedan has lots of road noise, which can get tiring on long trips. Can Si owners comment about the level of road/tire noise? If Honda has suppressed road/tire noise in the Si, that really is great news!

auroraboy

After owning a 1999 Acura EL (= fancy US Civic EX sedan with 127 HP motor) and after driving a 2002 Civic EX - I can attest to the fact that the new SiR hatchback is definitely quieter than the coupe or sedan. Certainly the engine is much quieter throughout the rev range vs the 127 HP engine. I think the car is also more solid and has less body noise overall.

To any other Si hatchback owners - what fuel was recommended? The Canadian owner's manual just says regular gas. However the factory sticker on the car sitting on the lot recommended Premium fuel. This is the mandatory Canadian fuel rating. It lists the city and hwy rating, but in small print said "premium fuel recommeded". The dealer was not even aware. I called Honda Canada customer service, and the person I spoke to put me on hold to speak to a "techie". She came back and said there is no problem running regular fuel, but the premium will give a small improvement in performance. The tech guy told her that I probably should NOT run premium fuel in the winter, as it might make the car harder to start. Not sure I understand that. We'll run regular fuel and see if it makes any difference. What do they recommend for US Si's?

si2002owner

Also noted the same difference between "advertised" and "specified" fuel grade. After asking that to honda service reps, answer was that they recomend MINIMUM of regular, but suggest premium.
About the road noise, is considerable less than previous civics.

reward

Must admit I am biased by years of owning Honda's and never having to worry about window mechanisms failing, paint peeling off, and clutches going out at 40,000. Perhaps my long stint in small economical Hatches and Honda sedans makes the performance of the Si stand out (but, wish I had driven the Focus). I am still willing to bet that the long-term reliability of the Honda (and resale value) will outshine that of the Focus. As to road noise, the car is the most quiet Honda I have owned (includes a 2000 Accord) Tire noise is limited and engine has a nice, deeply muffled sound. Fuel economy is so-so; The base RSX has the same engine and they recommend premium fuel.

himiler

If you drive the car fairly hard, I'd suggest you stick with premium: You'll avoid detonation and, over time, will have fewer carbon deposits on your valves which can cause them to get very brittle.

bobbyknight

Just saw today in the Chicago Tribune a brand new 2002 Civic SI for $17400! Could it possibly be a typo? For that price I am thinking about jumping on it.

himiler

If there's no fine print about "with $2000 down" I'd definately say it's worth a look, unless it's a dealer demo car with some hard miles on it already.

ssaus

Made a big mistake two years ago and traded my 1990 Si for a 1998 Civic LX 4 door automatic.
The car was fine, no complaints on reliability but it was BORING and NOISY! Just got my new toy
Thursday, White 2002 Si. It is great fun, quiet
and way fast compared to the '98. Leased it for now. Way fun!!

himiler

Cool! Congrats on the new ride!

Are you going to put some stickier rubber on it right away, or will you try hard to burn the stock tires up first?

Did you get any dealer-installed items on it?