Toyota Sequoia Prices Paid and Buying Experience

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Comments

  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Member Posts: 324
    Not to diminish the great deal you got, but that acquisition fee is rather interesting. Is that a mandated fee for your state? I'm not familiar with an acquisition fee as I did not have one in my deal. Kinda looks like in reality that they built a "$550+ over invoice" price for the vehicle by building the acquisition fee into the contract together with slightly higher doc fees (my doc fees for example were $149 vs $279) than I've seen in other deals.

    Not an issue to quibble but may be an example where the dealer sells a vehicle at invoice and gets their "over invoice" revenue out of their contract fees. I may be wrong if this is a required or "typical fee" for your area however it would certainly be better to know what an "acquisition fee" is, as I've never heard of it before. Its not even a contract line item on deals signed in NJ.

    Was the "acquisition fee" hand written into your contract or was it part of the pre-printed contract template from your dealer? Any insight from others on this additional charge?
  • hanoverkenhanoverken Member Posts: 30
    As for the fees, I have actually seen a number of $670 for the acquisition fee. I'm assuming acquisition is something everybody gets hit with - it was on the Denali I was pricing as well. It varies from vehicle to vehicle and perhaps from region to region. Maybe it was buried somewhere in your deal - who knows. Dealers love to play around like that.

    The doc fee was a little high, but not out of line compared to other quotes.
  • kgarykgary Member Posts: 180
    I did not pay either a document fee or an aquisition fee. I think your dealer may have been hiding his profit in those fees. Regardless, you got a good deal.
  • hanoverkenhanoverken Member Posts: 30
    Did you negotiate the acquisition fee out of the deal or was it just not there? Every quote I got for the Sequoia had it - and so did quotes for a Denali, an Audi Q7, and an Acura MDX. I don't know if it is a Massachusetts thing or not, but seems to be in every deal.

    Doc fees include plates, title, runner to the registry, and the lawyer fee to do the docs. I'm sure they build a little something there, but there isn't much - all those things cost the dealer so if they are not there they bury them in the markup on the car.

    I guess the bottom line is to add the "closing costs" to the cost of the vehicle to get the "out the door" cost.

    The good news is that dealers are getting down to invoice, which is a move in the right direction. If this morning's stock market is any indicator they will go lower than invoice soon.
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Member Posts: 324
    hanoverken,

    Please don't misinterpret my comments below to suggest you didn't get a good deal..... because you did. However I think its important for others to check with the dealer that's offerring an outstanding deal on a vehicle to know upfront what the fees are for purchasing a new vehicle from their dealership.

    I would recommend that this fee information be asked for in the first email communication.

    Here's the quote from the dealership's original email reply that sold me my new Sequoia with respect to fees: "You can purchase the Platinum Edition one for $53,418 plus tax and all other fees required by our Dealership and the State of New Jersey. The fees are as follows 1) Window Etch $199(optional), 2) 7%tax, 3)Online DMV fee of $8.30cents, 4)Tire Tax of $7.50cents, 5)Doc fee of $149, 6)Title/Reg $334"

    I elected not to take the window etching as that's a scam IMO. Therefore the only charge the dealership charged me above the vehicle price that was not a mandated fee by the state of NJ was the Doc fee of $149.

    Since dealer's may include other "fees" to make up for a low vehicle price when dealing with a knowledgeable buyer, I'm amending the formula for use on the original "Good Deal" scale:

    Start with only the vehicle selling price including the options posted on the window sticker from the factory (plus any dealer installed options but only if you know the MSRP for them). Add any fees that are NOT mandated by the local government to the vehicle selling price. Divide by the window sticker MSRP and use my original scale of deal "goodness".

    For example: here's my deal on a Platinum Sequoia with Rear entertainment, Cold Kit, DRL on/off, Preferred Accessories & Wheel Locks using this approach:
    Vehicle cost with options above: $53418 + Dealer fees (not mandated by NJ) $149 = $53567 / the vehicle's MSRP (window sticker) including all options: $58544. This will give my deal a factor of .9149.

    The scale again:
    Greater than 1.0...you got ripped off
    Equal to 1.0...you paid list price (poor deal)
    .98-1.0...marginal discount
    .95-.98...OK
    .93-.95...good deal
    .91-.93...excellent deal
    .89-.91...outstanding deal

    Since my deal was negotiated the first 3 days after the vehicle was launched I was satisfied with an "excellent" deal. Future deals should do better as time passes. Others may want to use this approach to see how "good" their deal was.

    Please keep in mind that this is all just my opinion but I think it can give you a general sense of how good your vehicle purchase price was.
  • hanoverkenhanoverken Member Posts: 30
    No problem. I would rather get a critique now and continue to push the dealer than find out later I left money on the table.

    Strange about the acquisition fee - there is usually some variant of that - maybe there is something about Jersey that prevents it's charge? Somebody else on the forum may know about it. It is on every make and model car in MA.

    Adding in the acquisition and doc fee brings me to .9078 on the "deal" scale. Still pretty good I guess. Hopefully no surprises from the dealer as we get down to brass tacks. I hate that.
  • hanoverkenhanoverken Member Posts: 30
    The acquisition fee is lease related. It's on all lease vehicles and not negotiable. I wasn't thinking this morning. If you don't lease then you don't see that fee. What was negotiable was the dealer holdback and wholesale finance charges built into the "invoice price". Non-negotiable were the delivery charge and the Toyota Dealer Advertising charge - also built into the invoice.

    I also found some little things on the spec list that I didn't want. Skid plate, cargo cover, wheel locks, and a "preferred accessory package" - whatever that is. They will be dropped - and so will the overall price.
  • kgarykgary Member Posts: 180
    Did you negotiate the acquisition fee out of the deal or was it just not there? Every quote I got for the Sequoia had it - and so did quotes for a Denali, an Audi Q7, and an Acura MDX. I don't know if it is a Massachusetts thing or not, but seems to be in every deal.

    Doc fees include plates, title, runner to the registry, and the lawyer fee to do the docs. I'm sure they build a little something there, but there isn't much - all those things cost the dealer so if they are not there they bury them in the markup on the car.

    I guess the bottom line is to add the "closing costs" to the cost of the vehicle to get the "out the door" cost.

    The good news is that dealers are getting down to invoice, which is a move in the right direction. If this morning's stock market is any indicator they will go lower than invoice soon.


    The price I qouted is the "below the line price". The description of the non-lease items that you provided was included "above the line" on my deal. My price was the total price and I was not provided with a breakdown as to what part of the total price was for options, or any other costs or fees. Since I purchased the vehicle I did not have any of the lease expenses.
  • hanoverkenhanoverken Member Posts: 30
    As I said before that acquisition fee is germane only to leasing. It's a non-negotiable item with Toyota Finance or whoever you lease through. Mine's a business lease and makes sense for my circumstances. You can't really use that figure when comparing deals because we are comparing apples and oranges. GM has the same issues. I could buy a Denali for $47,199 or lease it at cap cost of $49,800 or so and take advantage of their bloated residuals. You really can't compare the two deals.

    The other fees are perhaps applicable to Massachusetts - title, registry runner, plates, etc. There's a realistic cost to those and I don't mind paying. All the dealers in MA quote similar fees though a very few will sell at invoice - several of them came back with +$2500 over invoice - I had to laugh. I suspect money factors on leases may come down with the Fed's continued easing and who knows, with the economy in recession panic perhaps Toyota will make like GM and provide some factory to dealer incentives that can be passed on. I have a little time to see how it plays out.

    I would say we all got good deals given the fact that the vehicle is so new.
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Member Posts: 324
    I didn't realize your new Sequoia was a lease. Kinda changes the measurements of "goodness" since my estimations were for an outright purchase. There are many other variables to consider in a lease deal that go well beyond the actual purchase price and "closing costs", such as mileage allowed under the lease, residual value at lease end, interest rate, buyout value and others.

    For these reasons, trying to calculate the goodness of a deal on a lease is far more complex and not generally characterized as good or bad since the individual's specific needs such as mileage per year, may justify a higher cost than might have been otherwise reasonable for an outright purchase.

    In a lease arrangement, its far easier for the dealership to offer invoice on the vehicle because the margin on the deal can be made up many different ways with a slightly higher interest rate, slightly lower residual value, lower mileage allowance, higher buy-out or other fees or any combination of all of these variables.

    I've leased in the past and trying to use invoice and MSRP is generally not terribly helpful. The only real way to know if you've gotten a fair lease agreement is to get a lease figure and shop the exact terms, fees and monthly payment to multiple dealers for the exact same vehicle build. Not much fun.... that's why I avoid leases, although I understand the benefits if its a business lease.

    "preferred accessory package" The preferred accessory package (Z1) is available from the factory and includes the following:
    Carpet Floor Mats
    Cargo Mat
    Door Sill Protector
    Cargo Net
    First Aid Kit

    The MSRP on the Sequoia Preferred Accessories Package is $368. The factory invoice is $294. $300 seemed reasonable for these Sequoia accessories and I included this package in my deal.
  • mittie1mittie1 Member Posts: 11
    I would like to purchase a Sequoia Limited 4X4 with all of the toys but without the Sunroof. The local dealerships have told me that you can not order the Limited 4X4 without the sunroof. I was wondering if anyone has experienced the same problem or is this just a problem with our area?

    If that's the case can I order a one without the sunroof from another area of the country?
  • hanoverkenhanoverken Member Posts: 30
    The nice thing about hitting all Toyota dealers is that they all use the same variables - residual and money factor, as well as lease end issues, so long as you instruct them in advance of the miles you want built into the lease. The only variable between dealers is the cap cost - the cost of the vehicle. The result there is the lower the cap cost, the lower the payment - which is the key to all this. I never buy out at lease end - after 3 years I'm ready for something new.

    These variables have been one reason I still look fondly on the Denali. The residual on it is nearly $6k higher than the Sequoia, even though the MSRP for the Limited loaded up is very close. The bottom line payment is over $120 per month higher for the Sequoia. Still, I like the Toyota better and will try to close the gap a bit. Ultimately its a better vehicle.
  • hanoverkenhanoverken Member Posts: 30
    I asked the same question and got the same answer. I don't have one on my current vehicle and have not missed it. I would rather put the money into 20" wheels or some other goodie. Like gasoline...
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Member Posts: 324
    Its been a while since my last lease however from my recollections, the way I got the best deal was to forget about the price of the vehicle, the interest rate or any other leasing variable and instead boiled it down to just these 3.

    Monthly payment
    Length of deal
    Vehicle model and options

    Any other variables really didn't matter to me and I figured I would let the dealership wrestle with the variables that got the best monthly payment for the same # of months and the same vehicle. Once I had a monthly payment, I would contact other dealers to see if they had a better #. Once I found the best payment for the same months on the same vehicle I figured I had the fairest available deal.
  • buyer4suvbuyer4suv Member Posts: 26
    MSRP: $46,560
    price quoted: $42,100

    Vehicle: SR5, leather, tow, sun roof, GPS, back up camera, cold package, etc...

    I didn't ask about other fees yet but don't think there will be anything other than a typical $300 docs fee.

    This is a .905 deal based on the metric above...and I haven't tried to negotiate yet...so they are definitely not selling near msrp any longer...love it.

    my choice is the sequoia or a tahoe...
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Member Posts: 324
    If the dealership fees are reasonable and there are no hidden "extras", it sounds like another great deal. Congratulations.
  • hanoverkenhanoverken Member Posts: 30
    I think buyer4SUV is right. My deal dropped from invoice, to $169 under invoice, to $200 under invoice today. I have one other that is considering a $500 under. Something tells me they aren't moving as briskly as they thought perhaps.

    MSRP - 55976
    Sale - 48177
    Metric = .8606

    The funny part is some dealers are still coming back from my email blitz with $2500 OVER invoice - whoa!
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Member Posts: 324
    I'd be very suspicous of any deal that drops below .88 of MSRP. I say this because at this level the dealer is now getting no margin above his Toyota Factory Invoice and in fact is now giving away most of his $1100 withhold from Toyota. Essentially he's selling the vehicle for nothing other than maybe a piece of his $500 in financial reserve from Toyota designated to cover their "floorplan" interest.

    I won't believe that someone can get a purchase deal (not a lease) for under .88 of MSRP on a new 08 Sequoia until I hear there's an actual signed contract and that the buyer can list the final selling price plus all dealer fees divided by the final MSRP including both factory and dealer options. This thinking doesn't apply to leases IMO for the reasons I outlined in an earlier post.

    Not to be an overly Doubting Thomas, but sometimes when a deal is too good to be true...it is.
  • buyer4suvbuyer4suv Member Posts: 26
    Hd -- what part of the country are you in? I'm in MA....
  • hanoverkenhanoverken Member Posts: 30
    Dealer holdback is $969 on this vehicle, Wholesale financial reserve is $484. That's on top of whatever profit (3%?) is built into the pricing. They have room to dip $200 under invoice and still make a profit.

    I don't know why you would doubt $200 under if at invoice made sense. It really doesn't change the equation much at all.

    I'm in MA, don't know if that changes anything.

    Ken W.
  • buyer4suvbuyer4suv Member Posts: 26
    ken - we're both in MA ... can you share your best price dealers so i can cut to the chase and piggyback off your hard work?! :)

    thanks, John
  • hanoverkenhanoverken Member Posts: 30
    John,

    I'm on the South Shore. I'll need your email as your profile has it as private. Let's gang up and squeeze them some more...

    Ken
  • buyer4suvbuyer4suv Member Posts: 26
    Ken - I'm at: scuba-guy-john-at-hot-mail-dot-com remove all dashes and "at" and "dot"

    I just got another quote back -- even better:

    msrp $46,560 (higher by $290 compared to Edmunds)
    quote $41,883
    invoice $40,547 (could be $250 higher if my msrp is off)

    that's 89.95% of msrp -- and the docs fee is only $65.

    You need to get to 87% to pay invoice from what I see.

    Vehicle includes the following options: FE, EJ, CK, LA, LF, MR, RB, RF, RL, TO, CF

    John.
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Member Posts: 324
    "Hd -- what part of the country are you in? I'm in MA.... "

    I'm in NJ
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Member Posts: 324
    "Dealer holdback is $969 on this vehicle, Wholesale financial reserve is $484. That's on top of whatever profit (3%?) is built into the pricing. They have room to dip $200 under invoice and still make a profit.

    I don't know why you would doubt $200 under if at invoice made sense. It really doesn't change the equation much at all."


    Here's how I see the math. First, I suggested $1100 Toyota holdback which is the number for the Platinum with the options I was getting. But you have the exact figure of $969 for the Toyo holdback on the vehicle you're looking at, so we'll use that number.

    Here's the other numbers you shared:
    MSRP - 55976
    Sale - 48177
    Metric = .8606

    The one number you didn't share is the Toyota Factory invoice for this specific vehicle with the options from the factory. I'm going to estimate that the Factory invoice for this vehicle is about $50154 (factory invoice on the new Sequoia's is about .896 X MSRP). If you get the actual factory invoice we can put it into the calculations.

    This $50,154 factory invoice for the vehicle you're looking at can be broken into the following components based on the info you've provided:
    Dealer holdback - $969
    Finance reserve - $484

    Inside this factory invoice are several other items you haven't listed, however here's my estimate:
    TDA (Regional Marketing) - $500
    Gas - $10
    Destination charge - $700

    After subtracting these 5 figures from the factory invoice you'll get the approx. price the dealer paid Toyota for the vehicle $47491. Keep in mind that the factory invoice is not the price the dealership paid for the vehicle but the vehicle PLUS the items outlined above. (for the purposes of this estimate I'm not included any bonuses, awards, or volume incentives from Toyo to the dealership.)

    So where's that leave the deal you've just outlined? You said the offer is $48177. That means the dealer is accepting an offer that is around $700 over his vehicle cost and almost $2000 under the dealer's factory invoice. Just not gonna happen in a straight-out purchase. Might happen in a lease because they're getting their pound of flesh through different components of the financing, but they are definitely gonna get more than they paid for the vehicle plus the additional pieces they owe Toyota.

    There's even a remote possibility they can even offer numbers like this with a trade-in because they're gonna get their pound of flesh on a low ball trade-in value.

    I don't think you're gonna find much value in the scale I provided earlier on anything other that a straight outright purchase where the variables are more in the control of buyer. I also don't think anyone will see a price below .89 of MSRP on any new 08 Sequoia in a clean purchase (no trade-in or leases).

    Since you're looking at leases my best recommendation is to forget about MSRP's, vehicle prices, factory invoices and just about everything else about the vehicle. I would get the best monthly payment for the period you're interested in for the vehicle you want and shop that monthly payment to various dealers. Just my $.02 to avoid getting caught in the scam of a great price on the vehicle that results in a higher monthly payment then the next dealership's financing. Think about it, do you really care what the price of the vehicle is in a lease deal. What good is a great price on a leased vehicle if the monthly payment is higher (assuming all other lease variables are the same)?

    Once again this is just my opinion so take it for what its worth. BTW I'd like nothing more than to be proven wrong by the guy that brings a contract to the thread that can show a deal at .89 or below MSRP on a straight purchase.
  • buyer4suvbuyer4suv Member Posts: 26
    BTW I'd like nothing more than to be proven wrong by the guy that brings a contract to the thread that can show a deal at .89 or below MSRP on a straight purchase.

    Hd....i've already done that...twice...in the space of 2 hours from 2 different dealers without even trying yet...or using Ken's dealer for a quote...trust me, I'm shocked at how easy this is on a brand new design...one dealer near Boston has 12 in stock...that's a lot! another told me he can get me anything I want within a couple of days...
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Member Posts: 324
    Humor me....

    Please answer these ?s

    Is this a staright purchase of an '08 Sequoia? or is it a lease?
    Do you have a trade-in?
    Are you financing thru the dealer? If yes, what's the rate and term?
    Have you agreed to an extended warranty or other service plans? price?
    Do you have a signed contract in hand?

    With these questions answered, let's check out the numbers. Can you post the following information?

    The final contracted vehicle price including all options (please designate if there are any dealer options not from the factory).

    All fees to be paid to the dealership, excluding registration, title and taxes

    The total from the bottom of Toyota Factory Invoice sheet for the vehicle.

    The total from the bottom of the MSRP window sticker (no other MSRP #s count unless you need to add retail numbers to the window sticker for dealer installed options).

    If this sounds complex its because it is...by design...that's how dealers make their money and how they sometimes make even more more on deals that sound great. How do you think they pay for all those Toyota dealership showroom expansions? They are certainly not doing it by losing money on their vehicle transactions.
  • kgarykgary Member Posts: 180
    hdfatboy,

    I think what you are forgetting is that hanoverken's deal is a lease. The lease gives the dealer another profit center in which to make money, i.e. the finance payments. Many dealers lower the so-called capitalized cost to make it look like they are giving a good deal, but hit you with a high money factor or a low residual. As a result, it is very difficult to compare capitalized costs on leases with actual purchase prices. That is why many of the particpants on this thread cut to the chase on leases and ask for the monthly payment amount. Perhaps hanoverken can share the terms of his lease and the payment amounts.
  • buyer4suvbuyer4suv Member Posts: 26
    Humor me....

    I will humor you :) I know where you're coming from...the prices I've asked for are straight purchases....no trade, no finance...I'll do that AFTER I've negotiated my purchase price. No warranties, etc....no contract yet...but in the time it took to type this I just got quote #3 that beats your criteria...and is the best of all of them because it includes doc fees.. :)

    here is the last one:

    msrp per edmunds $46,230
    msrp per dealer $46,918
    invoice per edmunds $40,515
    price from dealer $41,680 (includes doc fee but not sales tax or plate fee)

    the above quote may not be the best example - the difference in dealer vs edmunds are 2 items the dealer lists that edmunds does not:

    $368 (Z1) convenience package (floor mats, sill protectors, cargo net, 1st aid kit)
    $280 (N1) auto dimming mirror

    are these std. packages or is this dealer marking up the vehicle with things that are included? it doesn't come with an auto dimming rear view mirror as standard???

    Regardless, i do have 2 other quotes that match your criteria and even the one above comes in close to 90% worst case even if the z1 and N1 are dealer markups.

    John.
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Member Posts: 324
    kgary, actually the points you just made are the exact ones I made in my posts above regarding leases. We're in full agreement.
  • hanoverkenhanoverken Member Posts: 30
    Not to burst your bubble, but I called the dealer with the lowest price and asked if the price quoted applied to just a lease, or an outright purchase. Either or was the answer.

    As for not focusing on price in a lease - well, not really. There are several variable you need to know. The money factor, the negotiated cap cost of the vehicle, the residual value, and the term. Assuming the money factor and the residual are the same from dealer to dealer (they are) as well as the term, then the ONLY thing to focus on is the capitalized cost of the vehicle which in turn leads to the lowest monthly price. Just simple math here - no reason to make this more complex than it needs to be.

    I think you're missing something regarding the math on return to the dealer. They are making offers at invoice and slightly below - I got return emails from probably 75% of the nearly 50 dealer I emailed and almost all of them were willing to get close to, or at, invoice. A couple, as stated, were slightly below. If they were not making money none of them would make that offer. Since they are you're missing something about their return. They, like most of us, don't work for nothing.

    If you want, when I get a signed contract, I'll fax it to you.
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Member Posts: 324
    "msrp per edmunds $46,230
    msrp per dealer $46,918
    invoice per edmunds $40,515
    price from dealer $41,680 (includes doc fee but not sales tax or plate fee"


    If you can get this deal in a straight forward contract, it'll certainly be an outstanding deal. This sale would be at .888 which by my estimations would make it an "at Factory Invoice deal". This is the type of deal everyone should pursue.

    Keep in mind that Edmunds has footnotes regarding "their" invoice pricing which is definitely a lower number that the Toyota factory Invoice to the dealer.

    Here's Edmund's footnote:

    "The invoice price does not include any fees that may be charged by the manufacturer to dealers in a particular area of the country, such as local advertising fees, dealer association fees, or docking and storage fees. Edmunds.com does not track or provide such local fees."

    As I referenced earlier, the Toyota Factory Invoice includes the vehicle, destination charge, TDA (Regional Marketing), Gas, Dealer Holdback and Wholesale Financial reserve. Therefore the Factory Invoice on a vehicle is higher than Edmund's invoice price. That being said, the closer you can get to Edmund's invoice price, you've got an even better deal.

    Please let us know when you have a signed contract in hand for this deal as it would truly be outstanding. I have to say I'll be surprised if it happens (although I'm definitely routing for you to get it.)

    The Z1 Preferred Accessories Package is considered a Factory option (although I think they throw the kit in the vehicle at the port). Your $368 price is MSRP. If the dealer gives you the same discount he's offerring on the vehicle you should get the Z1 package for around $300.

    I can't speak to the Auto Dimming mirror N1 or the prices on it.
  • buyer4suvbuyer4suv Member Posts: 26
    not sure why hd is so disbelieving...getting these prices has been a very easy exercise...I'm awaiting your email on the dealer name!

    What's your take on the Z1 and N1 options? why do some vehicles have them and others not? they would seem to be std. to me esp. Z1. were they added as sep. options after the initial manufacturing run?

    thanks.
  • vernschillingevernschillinge Member Posts: 66
    "not sure why hd is so disbelieving...getting these prices has been a very easy exercise...I'm awaiting your email on the dealer name! "

    Simple.....because he is making the assumption that the factory invoice plus the advertising fee (TDA), plus destination is the real cost of the dealer vis-a-vis the manufacturer. Fact is no one really knows what the true dealer cost is except.....the dealer. "Invoice" price plus x dollars or minus x dollars is only a basis to support a negotiation from a buyers perspective when dealing with a dealer. Its ultimately the dealer that makes the call as to whether he is willing to part with a vehicle for his "true profit". This being said, going into a dealership without have a logical rationale to support your position on price is not a wise move either. As such "invoice" is used as a foundation for developing a stance.
  • hanoverkenhanoverken Member Posts: 30
    John, you have the dealer(s) names. You're right - they just offered it up and I'm not going to argue with it. Check website www.buyatoyota.com for regional packaging of options. I don't know what those codes correspond to without looking them up (and it's late) but some just come through. I think if you push the dealer they can dispense with some of them. I had one that tried to push a cargo cover on me...the ones on my last two vehicles collected dust. He said he would remove that from the vehicle I ordered.

    It seems Toyota dealers are notorious for dealer add ons, but I think anyone who takes the time to read these forums knows about those. GM shopping was easier - one giant package of options and 20" wheels and that was it. I still want the Toyota though.

    Oh, and the lease price was $818.58 for 36 months/15k miles.
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Member Posts: 324
    "Not to burst your bubble, but I called the dealer with the lowest price and asked if the price quoted applied to just a lease, or an outright purchase."

    There's no bubble burst on my part and no need to fax a contract. I have a deal in hand and my only objective was to help with whatever insight you might find of value. To the extent you can help others by sharing your final contract deal, you should post it back to the thread to help others as I’ve tried to do..

    I still say that the price of the vehicle in a lease is of no consequence because in the end the only numbers that matter are the monthly payment and the number of months on the lease (assuming the vehicles and mileage/yr are identical when comparing the monthly payment). But whatever works for you to get the best deal I would encourage you to use vs my opinion.

    "I think you're missing something regarding the math on return to the dealer."

    Actually, I think I have the math on buying a vehicle and the dealer's return down quite well. I never suggested folks can't get an "at invoice deal" or even a below invoice deal when buying a new Sequoia. In fact its the first number on the scale I provided against MSRP....."89-.91 MSRP Outstanding Deal". The .89 is an at or slightly below Factory Invoice.

    I'm confident that there's no dealer that will sell a '08 Sequoia at .86 of MSRP (as you suggested earlier) as that would be a sale below his fixed cost for the vehicle plus shipping. And of course he still has his regional marketing fees and expenses to run the showroom not to mention his margin. Could he be getting a special volume award that month or be trying to reach a certain sales threshold for a better allocation next month? Absolutely. Is it likely others will hit that row of cherries when shopping? I think it'll be tough. But hey…what do I know…it sounds like you got it figured out pretty good. Good luck with the lease on your new Sequoia.
  • hanoverkenhanoverken Member Posts: 30
    TOUCHE! You're right! This exercise in quoting a certain price under invoice or price paid as a percentage of MSRP really gets us nowhere because we really do not know the dealers cost - though one dealer faxed me his invoice (is it real - who knows?). What is important is price paid period. Hdfatboy's method got me to that point and I thank him for it. Pricing from nearly 50 competing dealers in the comfort of your home gets you a pretty good feel for what is good in a deal and what's not. The range of quotes I got was nearly $3000 from high to low. If you didn't follow through on this excercise (and I bet a lot of people don't) you may end up at one of the dealers on the high end. Talk about burning money. $48k for a loaded Limited is a pretty good deal - I think. Who knows, in a month or two they may be doing cash back or low APR like some other vehicles in the line.

    Ken
  • buyer4suvbuyer4suv Member Posts: 26
    this forum is invaluable to me for one simple reason...I learned very quickly that even though this is a new vehicle and they are in somewhat short supply on some dealer lots, there's a ton of room to negotiate downwards.

    For the most part, the quotes I got back are straight forward but it still appears some dealers want to play games...and the whole z1 and n1 option thing confuses me - if they are added at the port, then why doesn't Edmund's list them and why don't all dealers price them as options? I need to figure that one out.

    I'll post my best deal when I buy but rest assured good deals are available and it only makes sense...we have an economy teetering on recession, a panicked FED, a barrel of oil at $100 or so, and a stock market that could go off the deep end any day...but, yup, i'm gonna buy a gas guzzling $40 grand plus behemoth!

    Think Toyota is concerned about the economy, my bet is yes and prices reflect that.

    John.
  • buyer4suvbuyer4suv Member Posts: 26
    the toyota configurator is the most useless thing I've ever seen in my life...it lumps a bunch of different options into different prices so there is no way to know, without spending hours deciphering it, what the heck the options are or what the individual prices are!
  • vernschillingevernschillinge Member Posts: 66
    "the toyota configurator is the most useless thing I've ever seen in my life...it lumps a bunch of different options into different prices so there is no way to know, without spending hours deciphering it, what the heck the options are or what the individual prices are! "

    ............not to mention, it changes depending on your location (some zip codes show inventory, while other ask you to call your closest dealer). Some zip codes have different additional charges, such as South Eastern states, while others don't.

    Frankly, the toyota website and support are a joke. I've never seen such a non-uniform and haphazard way of configuring a vehicle. Toyota needs to learn a lesson or two from Honda in this regard. Guess thats one of pitfalls of becoming to large a corporation. Hate to say it, but in terms of pre-purchase support, Toyota feels like a japanese GM. On the flip side, I'm sure their dealers love the ambiguity associated with pricing and configuration.
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Member Posts: 324
    "Hate to say it, but in terms of pre-purchase support, Toyota feels like a japanese GM. On the flip side, I'm sure their dealers love the ambiguity associated with pricing and configuration."

    Interesting perspective, although my past pre-purchase experience has been far better with GM than this recent experience with Toyota. As a long standing GM owner, it has been quite a learning curve for me to get acclimated to the "Toyota" way of doing business. Limited info at the launch of a new product. Sales personnel that know less about the product they're selling than the buyer. No printed information on the product to review prior to the purchase.

    This has definitely been quite a different pre-purchase experience than I've had with my prior GM purchases. Not that GM had stellar launches but my experience was that their sales personnel were generally more knowledgeable about products and that there was lot's of printed materials and advertising to go with the launch.

    For example, we're now about 5-6 weeks into the launch of the new Sequoia. Has anyone seen a Toyota brochure (with any substance) for the Sequoia (not the worthless and empty picture flyer they've been giving out when asked for a brochure on the Sequoia)? How can it be a good business model to give the consumer so little information at the launch of a new product when there are certainly alot of competitive products that provide this information in attractive vehicle brochures and more knowledgeable sales personnel?

    If dealers find themselves having to give invoice deals to move new Sequoias, its my opinion (in addition to high gas prices) that the reason is a poorly executed product launch. Very limited TV advertising, almost no print ads, no brochures, no big-name product spokespersons. The launch appears to be a stealth campaign targeted to "insiders", possibly to avoid the "blowback" of launching a larger SUV then the previous Sequoia with only 13mpg that may result in dampening the "green Prius image" of Toyota.

    Maybe I'm just old school, but the launch of the new Sequoia doesn't seem like an effective or well coordinated approach to launching a new product. The upside is that the insiders may find themselves facing dealers with low demand willing to offer new Sequoias at invoice pricing.
  • buyer4suvbuyer4suv Member Posts: 26
    I agree...they don't want to sell this vehicle...no support whatsoever...no brochure is unbelievable - what they have is totally useless!
  • buyer4suvbuyer4suv Member Posts: 26
    the CF option is $290 msrp and $185 cost which is main reason the msrp numbers don't match the dealer msrp's I'm receiving.

    The best deal so far is 88.8% of true MSRP which I calculate to be $700 over edmunds invoice and $100 over dealer invoice. The dealer invoice number includes about $1,751 of marketing, reserves, holdbacks, etc. so there is probably still more room to move but not sure if its doable at this time given the vehicle is so new.
  • hanoverkenhanoverken Member Posts: 30
    I have had the same experience as you hd. I test drove the vehicle last Saturday and the salesman that took me out (who I was assured knew the vehicle) was on his first drive in the vehicle. I knew more about the options packages and various features than he did. I'm sure that changes from dealership to dealership, but I found that approach bizarre.

    Also difficult has been the wildly varying package of options on the same vehicle. On the GM Denali it was essentially order it with one all encompassing package and you were done - no guesswork trying to see what they snuck in on you. The Toyotas all seem to have the big items, but they sneak a variety of small stuff in on you - skid pads, wheel locks, cargo covers, etc. - small stuff but they add up and if you don't want them it is money wasted.

    I have had Saabs for 18 years and they came complete - what you see is what you get - how can it get any easier? Must be a culture thing as other Japanese cars have a similar littany of option packages.

    Finally, maybe its me, but I find I really have to get my guard up at the Toyota dealers - as more than a few have tried to sneak options, fees, etc through on quotes. I didn't get that with my Saab dealer or the local GM dealers.
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Member Posts: 324
    "Simple.....because he is making the assumption that the factory invoice plus the advertising fee (TDA), plus destination is the real cost of the dealer vis-a-vis the manufacturer. Fact is no one really knows what the true dealer cost is except.....the dealer."

    Just a few comments on the thought above. First its helpful to understand what's in the Manufacturer's Factory Invoice (MFI) and what it can and cannot tell you about the vehicle. (BTW this MFI is referred to as a "Vehicle Inquiry Report" in the Toyota inventory system.) The statement quoted above is not entirely correct regarding the factory invoice. The MFI actually DOES include the advertising fee, the destination fee as well as gas cost, finance expense and the dealer holdback.

    Once you've subtracted these expenses from the MFI, you're left with a figure that represents the vehicle cost to the dealership. But keep in mind that the regional marketing & destination charges are real expenses that Toyota charges the dealership for the vehicle. The gas & finance expenses are likely real costs the dealer will incur for holding the vehicle on his lot but are not necessarily paid to Toyota. The withold is a chargeback to the dealer from the manufacturer to essentially cover some of the expenses of providing a showroom to display Toyota's products.

    This MFI is the invoice figure I've been referring to in this recent string of posts, not just the standalone cost of the vehicle to the dealership.

    It is however a factual statement to suggest that no one outside the management of the business knows the "true" cost of any one vehicle to the dealership. There are many other variables such as monthly volume incentives, sales awards and other bonuses from the manufacturer that can vary from month-to-month and dealer-to-dealer. These unknown bonuses can in essence reduce the "true" cost of a vehicle to that dealership. There are also variable expenses such as salaries, benefits, taxes, electricity etc. that are unknowable to the buyer.

    In the end, its not likely you'll be successful trying to negotiate from the supposed cost of the vehicle to the dealership because there is really no way for you to know all the variable costs associated with a particular dealer's business.

    The only 3 factual, undisputed figures that can be used to determine if you've received a "reasonable" deal are the following:
    The window sticker which the gov. has established as unalterable by the dealership
    The factory invoice sheet for the specific vehicle you are considering which you are at the mercy of the dealership to see
    The fees associated with "closing" the deal on the vehicle which under all state laws must be outlined on a new vehicle's sales agreement.

    Of course there are many other aids, such as Edmunds website, however only the 3 sources above will apply to the exact vehicle you are considering.

    Once again, none of what I'm saying above is terribly helpful IMO if you are leasing the vehicle as there are many other variables involved that I'll leave others to expand on.

    The 3 factual figures above were the basis for the scale of goodness I shared in the earlier posts. I hope that helps in better understanding what's in the Manufacturer's Factory Invoice (as opposed to those referring to it as a dealer's invoice) and what's not in it.
  • patsfan3patsfan3 Member Posts: 6
    MSRP 53,895
    price offered: 49,576
    for Limited 4x4 w/ FE, CK, EY, BU, NV, RF, RL, SR, CF
    I also have a potential trade in I haven't talked to them about. Don't know if I should try to sell it outright. Would you take this deal or keep shopping?
  • buyer4suvbuyer4suv Member Posts: 26
    you need to read the past 50 posts before asking...after you do, you'll see your deal is not that good at least for the northeast. It's about $1k high not counting what they are charging you for docs fees.
  • awj123awj123 Member Posts: 7
    Has anyone done the calculations to figure out if there is a price advantage to ordering a limited with every option versus a fully loaded platinum? And if so, is there anything that you wouldn't get on the Limited that you would if you ordered the Platinum?
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Member Posts: 324
    "MSRP 53,895
    price offered: 49,576
    for Limited 4x4 w/ FE, CK, EY, BU, NV, RF, RL, SR, CF
    I also have a potential trade in I haven't talked to them about. Don't know if I should try to sell it outright. Would you take this deal or keep shopping? "


    Its a good deal but you can definitely do better. Based on the MSRP of $53,895 and an offer of $49,576, I estimate the offer is about $1600 over factory invoice. An excellent deal would be $49,000 and an outstanding deal would be any number you can get between $48,000 and $49,000. These figures would include the vehicle price plus options plus any additional dealer fees other than tax, title and registration.

    Let us know how you do. Good luck.
  • hdfatboyhdfatboy Member Posts: 324
    "Has anyone done the calculations to figure out if there is a price advantage to ordering a limited with every option versus a fully loaded platinum? And if so, is there anything that you wouldn't get on the Limited that you would if you ordered the Platinum? "

    Yes.... I did the calculation and posted it earlier. It showed that if you took every option on a 4wd Limited that comes standard on a Platinum and compared it to a "no option" Platinum Sequoia you would have a $2000 higher MSRP price on the Platinum.

    For that $2K you would get the following features that are not available as an option on the Limited.

    Driver adjustable suspension H-TEMS
    A/C and heated front seats (front seats are only heated on the Limited)
    Memory adjustable tilt/telescope steering wheel
    2nd row heated seats
    2nd row center console that folds level with floor when the seats are folded down
    Available Red Rock leather interior with black carpeting (only grey or beige carpeting is an option in the Limited)

    You'll have to be the judge if these options are worth $2K (list price) to you. Another consideration is the fact that you cannot get a Platinum with a 2nd row bench seat which is available in the Limited. If you want Captain's chairs in the Limited, its available however it does not come with a center console between the seats.

    If you wanted laser cruise as an option, it is only available on the Platinum and has an MSRP of $600. All other options available on the Platinum are also available on the Limited.
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