Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

jmonroe

driver100 said:

I get this survey to take from Mercedes Benz. Sounds like if you did all 3 parts it would take about 2 hours to complete. They allow you to do one part if you prefer. Some of it sounds like a cognitive skills test....do you need an IQ of 140 to own an MB.

Here are the preliminary instructions;

There are a few components that will be involved as part of the Study, all of which are being conducted by X Group. Please read the descriptions below to understand all expectations.
​

Part One: One thirty minute telephone interview or a 10-15 minute online survey where you will be asked:

A series of questions on how you purchase parts and accessories for your vehicle (if at all);
1. Your level of knowledge regarding the mechanics of your vehicle; and,
Ways in which you gain knowledge about parts and repairs and how you engage in servicing of your vehicle.
Part Two: One digital card sorting exercise for approximately thirty minutes:

2. You will be sent a link and asked to arrange cards (with various parts and accessories on them) into categories that are intuitive to you.
Part Three: One or two website usability testing exercises approximately thirty minutes each:

3. You will be asked to complete a series of 3-5 tasks, such as locating specific information on the website.

I'll do it if they pay me $60 an hour for my time and expertise!

This is easy to answer.

They are trying to find out why people with this much intelligence are willing to over pay for a car and allow themselves to be bumped up to the Mercedes Benz price range. If you guys stopped taking these surveys the price would go down.

jmonroe

graphicguy

Surveys.....it's beginning to make mild mannered me into a disgruntled postal worker.

Every phone call to a company, every inquiry to a company, every support call to a company, every visit to a store, to the post office, to a restaurant, etc....all of them want me to either stay on the line for a survey, or to link to a web site for a survey, or fill out a survey to tell them how they're doing.

In brief, they're all just gathering marketing material and we are one of their statistics.

First survey invitation I got was from a car firm. The survey administrator couldn't tell us who it was for. But, this was back in the early '90s and they paid me $500 to go to a remote location with about 20 others to give our opinion of some generic car and its styling, how appealing or unappealing it was to us. For $500 in the '90s I was happy to oblige.

Even a couple of years ago, I got $100 from Lincoln to take THEIR car home overnight in the hopes that they could get a sale out of it (not sure how many people participated, but those leads had to be expensive).

J.D. Power used to stick a $20 bill in with their surveys to "guilt" you into completing them.

Today, to take a survey, you're entered into some sort of contest with lottery like odds to win a mediocre prize.

Sorry....my time is worth more than that. These days, I decline ALL survey requests. Matter of fact, it irritates me that I have to take my time to define a survey before a company even knows why I contacted them.

fintail

That's wacky. I have received a JDP survey and follow up surveys after maintenance work, but never a huge thing like that. They definitely need to compensate for it, unless they only want responses from bored non-working people with no hobbies or obligations.

driver100 said:

Part One: One thirty minute telephone interview or a 10-15 minute online survey where you will be asked:

A series of questions on how you purchase parts and accessories for your vehicle (if at all);
1. Your level of knowledge regarding the mechanics of your vehicle; and,
3. You will be asked to complete a series of 3-5 tasks, such as locating specific information on the website.

I'll do it if they pay me $60 an hour for my time and expertise!

bwia

While Cadillac continues in a malaise the 2018 Genesis G90 has outclassed the CT6 and is threatening the other big luxury marques, As one blogger wrote, "If you’re the typical shopper in this segment looking for a big luxury sedan and you want class and comfort, the Genesis out-Cadillacs Cadillac and proved much better at providing an uncompromised luxury experience" and I am inclined to agree.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tztJClIly1c

bwia

The G90's interior does indeed look sumptuous and a no excuse price tag to match.

driver100

fintail said:

That's wacky. I have received a JDP survey and follow up surveys after maintenance work, but never a huge thing like that. They definitely need to compensate for it, unless they only want responses from bored non-working people with no hobbies or obligations.

driver100 said:

Part One: One thirty minute telephone interview or a 10-15 minute online survey where you will be asked:

A series of questions on how you purchase parts and accessories for your vehicle (if at all);
1. Your level of knowledge regarding the mechanics of your vehicle; and,
3. You will be asked to complete a series of 3-5 tasks, such as locating specific information on the website.

I'll do it if they pay me $60 an hour for my time and expertise!

Yeh, people without a life who have time for this nonesense.

Now every store gives you a receipt....take their survey! Bah, humbug!

ab348

bwia said:

While Cadillac continue in a malaise the 2018 Genesis G90 has outclassed the CT6 and is threatening the other big luxury marques, As one blogger wrote, "If you’re the typical shopper in this segment looking for a big luxury sedan and you want class and comfort, the Genesis out-Cadillacs Cadillac and proved much better at providing an uncompromised luxury experience" and I am inclined to agree.

I had never heard of this guy but a review of his YouTube channel reveals he is fond of hyperbolic headlines and declaring everything he gets to drive "the best" or "better than" something else.

roadburner

abacomike said:

oldfarmer50 said:

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

isellhondas said:

My point at the time was the fact that no matter how low we priced a car, people still wanted more. Very seldom did we hear " Wow, that's a great price, write it up!"

It's a great story. This was a classic situation, when uninformed buyer had a streak of luck, but they wouldn't know it. Their lifetime experience told them salespeople never say what they mean and always create that false urgency, so it just can't the one time it is real. They of course didn't understand the actual pricing components, what would be a typical expected discount. All the "know" is "dealers make a lot of money", so who knows, maybe this one they got for free from Honda, or who knows, right?

On the hindsight all they needed to do is look around for similar Odysseys on your lot and make a few quick comparison calculations, like this one sticker is 25K, red tag is 22K, this one has a sticked 30K, but the red tag is 25K. But this would require a quick decision. People get paralyzed by greed, especially when things are different from what they were prepared to face. Like a mistake on a tag.

Another salesperson told a similar story from a Mazda dealership. IIRC, they sold all their inventory for essentially invoice, except for the new(at that time) Mazdaspeed Protege- which they sold at MSRP. Again, a green pea wrote up a deal for a Mazdaspeed Protege at invoice. The sales manager went ahead and honored it. The car hadn't been through PDI yet so the customer was going to pick it up the following day. Lo and behold, the next day the customer calls the sales manager; "I talked with my friends and they think you all are screwing me over, so if you won't take off another $500 just tear up the deal." The manager gladly ripped up the deal.
Of course you know the rest of the story- the customer shops around and comes back with his tail between his legs asking the store to honor the original deal.
Fat chance, moron.

Oh oh RB you're starting to sound like a car salesman.

Definitely!  @roadburner, the more you talk and act like a car salesman, the more Craig will like you.  Come to think of it, I'm liking you more each day - who would have guessed!, 

I actually liked that story long before I ended up in the car business; it's a classic example of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Too lazy to do his own research he relies on some "friends" who don't have a shred of a clue about the market value of the car.

dino001

I would not mind to participate in one of those in-depth surveys, as long as they're really honest. However, the data shows most of the time the questions are structured in such a way that God save they'd actually learn what you think. Most of the time they either want you to tell everything is peachy, or they want to confirm the executive's "gut feel" on whatever they ask for. Another "class" of its own are political surveys done by some lobbying group, where questions are structured to make you answer "yes" on the question that you wouldn't understand, even if you had PhD majoring in the subject matter.

nyccarguy

@jmonroe - sorry for the delayed reply. I received a letter from Honda in August 2015 with our Pilot's VIN that states the following:

"On some 2009 - 2014 Pilot vehicles, the front suspension rear lower arm bushings (compliance bushing) may crack resulting in a leak or suspension noise because of exposure to heat and ozone in the atmosphere. To ensure your confidence in our product, American Honda is extending the warranty of the front suspension rear lower arm bushings to 7 years from the original date of purchase or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first."

I had been noticing a vibration coming from the front of the Pilot at speeds of 70 & up. My mechanic said to eliminate the 2 easiest causes so he can better diagnose. So at his direction, I had an alignment performed and had all 4 tires balanced. The vibration got better, but was still there. My mechanic took the Pilot on a very extensive ride over a variety of surfaces to pinpoint the problem. He then brought it back to his shop and put it up on the lift.

After driving the Pilot, he told me the rear pads and rotors were completely shot and needed to be replaced. He noticed a leak from the front axle and that these 2 rubber bushings on the front lower control arm were cracked and leaking. I trust him and always say: "John, whatever it is just fix it and use Genuine Honda parts."

He proceeded to tell me that these "compliance bushings" were pretty expensive (for what they are) and there is a decent amount of labor involved in replacing them. He told me "ball park, $700." I told him to replace the rear brake pads and rotors, but hold off on the "compliance bushings."

I rummaged through my Pilot folder, did a quick google search, and confirmed with @sda (who has a similar Pilot with a few more miles than mine) that this will be indeed covered under this extended warranty.

The Pilot got new compliance bushings, my wife got to drive my Infiniti Q40 for the day, and I got to take my Prelude to work. Everyone's happy!

fintail

Wasn't the old line about MT "never met a car we didn't like"?

ab348 said:

I had never heard of this guy but a review of his YouTube channel reveals he is fond of hyperbolic headlines and declaring everything he gets to drive "the best" or "better than" something else.

oldfarmer50

Speaking of VIN recall notices, I just got a notice from the dealer on a car I haven't owned since 2010. Took it to the crusher and they probably turned it into the fenders for jmonroe's Hyundai.

andres3

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

isellhondas said:

My point at the time was the fact that no matter how low we priced a car, people still wanted more. Very seldom did we hear " Wow, that's a great price, write it up!"

It's a great story. This was a classic situation, when uninformed buyer had a streak of luck, but they wouldn't know it. Their lifetime experience told them salespeople never say what they mean and always create that false urgency, so it just can't the one time it is real. They of course didn't understand the actual pricing components, what would be a typical expected discount. All the "know" is "dealers make a lot of money", so who knows, maybe this one they got for free from Honda, or who knows, right?

On the hindsight all they needed to do is look around for similar Odysseys on your lot and make a few quick comparison calculations, like this one sticker is 25K, red tag is 22K, this one has a sticked 30K, but the red tag is 25K. But this would require a quick decision. People get paralyzed by greed, especially when things are different from what they were prepared to face. Like a mistake on a tag.

Another salesperson told a similar story from a Mazda dealership. IIRC, they sold all their inventory for essentially invoice, except for the new(at that time) Mazdaspeed Protege- which they sold at MSRP. Again, a green pea wrote up a deal for a Mazdaspeed Protege at invoice. The sales manager went ahead and honored it. The car hadn't been through PDI yet so the customer was going to pick it up the following day. Lo and behold, the next day the customer calls the sales manager; "I talked with my friends and they think you all are screwing me over, so if you won't take off another $500 just tear up the deal." The manager gladly ripped up the deal.
Of course you know the rest of the story- the customer shops around and comes back with his tail between his legs asking the store to honor the original deal.
Fat chance, moron.

Lots fo lessons to be learned here:

1) Trust, but verify. It seems there are people that are not experts in car buying, but THINK they are. Give bad advice because they like putting in their 2 cents even if they are not subject matter wizards.

2) Don't burn bridges. It doesn't seem the Mazda manager told him 24 hours or I rip up the deal. Why didn't he string them along and stall while he verified his numbers at other dealers? I did this with VW on the Honda trade-in. He was going to give us $7,000 but I was on my phone checking Carmax prices, and knew I could probably get more from them (I did, $8K next day).

murphydog

tjc78 said:

Man I'm unlucky with tires this month.  First the Enclave now the Elantra with all its 4000 miles.  

Curious - you getting it plugged or patched? I only ask as I had nearly an identical screw that the corner gas station quickly and easily plugged (the only repair option I was even aware of) and my neighbor told me I should have had it patched on the inside. I have only had one other tire plugged and it lasted the life of the tire.

andres3

dino001 said:

driver100 said:

RB and ISell, I had a buying experience that was the opposite.
I wanted to lease a car in 1984. Tested an 84 Mustang.
Then tried an 84 Camaro. Camaro much better, and the lease rate was way less and buyout was way less.
I went with the lease on the Camaro and at the end management called me in for a meeting.
They told me someone new at the dealership gave me the wrong numbers for leasing and the dealership made nothing on my lease, would I do the right thing and pay them to $1600 they were out?
I thought about it for about 10 seconds, and being the nice, decent, honest person I am, I said..................................................NO, if it had been in reverse and if I overpaid by $1600 would you guys call me in to give me a refund?

I tried to lease my next car from them but the lease price was way too high....I think they wanted to make a profit on two cars by then.

I find it amazing they'd so brazen to actually call you into a meeting and demand more money after the contract is signed and (presumably) car was delivered. It sounds dangerously close to infamous (fortunately long-time gone) Bill Heard Chevrolet, then self-proclaimed largest Chevy dealer on the Planet, when people were (allegedly) routinely cheated with switched paperwork and other shenanigans. I suspect these were much different times in 1984, car dealers had a culture of (almost) anything goes back then.

I think in comparison we live in very honest times, as far as new car buying goes (used, perhaps a bit less, but much better, too). We obviously don't see everything (which we probably shouldn't, anyway) and the whole "invoice-retail" spread published on the Internet (including this website) is really a charade with quite a bit more money moved to the back room and exchanged way past the transaction (just compare those spreads from 20 years ago and today and you'll see there is no possible way anybody could run a store on 5 percent gross markup). But it's OK with me, those things don't bother me - retail markup, or profit is a necessary part of business and if it was all left to the customers, in whole honesty, we would have dealers bankrupt in a few months. But other parts of the business, from paperwork, to financing, are much more transparent and honest that they have ever been. Those horror stories of people finding out that their dealer whited-out and increased interest rate on their loan, or the terms of the contract or similar, are really the thing of a past. There is still some "slick-sleaze" factor going on, usually in the first contact, or some salespeople/managers/owners refusing to acknowledge new times, but I see it dying down and present mostly in the downmarket brands. Usually goes away, if you stand your ground. However, my experience with F&I is now, as long as you resist the upsell, it's usually smooth sailing and you don't have to read contracts line-by-line, as it used to be. Some of that was self-induced, some was probably forced by the government. In other words, it's so much easier to buy a car today, not knowing much about the business of selling cars, than it used to be in the past.

The dealerships in Southern San Diego (near the border like Chula Vista) seem to engage in shenanigans, starting with marked up stickers for sealants, trim, stripes, door guards, scotch guard, and waxes. In CA they are required to mark these mark-ups on a separate form outside of the sticker, but still creeps me out.

andres3

dino001 said:

driver100 said:

RB and ISell, I had a buying experience that was the opposite.
I wanted to lease a car in 1984. Tested an 84 Mustang.
Then tried an 84 Camaro. Camaro much better, and the lease rate was way less and buyout was way less.
I went with the lease on the Camaro and at the end management called me in for a meeting.
They told me someone new at the dealership gave me the wrong numbers for leasing and the dealership made nothing on my lease, would I do the right thing and pay them to $1600 they were out?
I thought about it for about 10 seconds, and being the nice, decent, honest person I am, I said..................................................NO, if it had been in reverse and if I overpaid by $1600 would you guys call me in to give me a refund?

I tried to lease my next car from them but the lease price was way too high....I think they wanted to make a profit on two cars by then.

I find it amazing they'd so brazen to actually call you into a meeting and demand more money after the contract is signed and (presumably) car was delivered. It sounds dangerously close to infamous (fortunately long-time gone) Bill Heard Chevrolet, then self-proclaimed largest Chevy dealer on the Planet, when people were (allegedly) routinely cheated with switched paperwork and other shenanigans. I suspect these were much different times in 1984, car dealers had a culture of (almost) anything goes back then.

I think in comparison we live in very honest times, as far as new car buying goes (used, perhaps a bit less, but much better, too). We obviously don't see everything (which we probably shouldn't, anyway) and the whole "invoice-retail" spread published on the Internet (including this website) is really a charade with quite a bit more money moved to the back room and exchanged way past the transaction (just compare those spreads from 20 years ago and today and you'll see there is no possible way anybody could run a store on 5 percent gross markup). But it's OK with me, those things don't bother me - retail markup, or profit is a necessary part of business and if it was all left to the customers, in whole honesty, we would have dealers bankrupt in a few months. But other parts of the business, from paperwork, to financing, are much more transparent and honest that they have ever been. Those horror stories of people finding out that their dealer whited-out and increased interest rate on their loan, or the terms of the contract or similar, are really the thing of a past. There is still some "slick-sleaze" factor going on, usually in the first contact, or some salespeople/managers/owners refusing to acknowledge new times, but I see it dying down and present mostly in the downmarket brands. Usually goes away, if you stand your ground. However, my experience with F&I is now, as long as you resist the upsell, it's usually smooth sailing and you don't have to read contracts line-by-line, as it used to be. Some of that was self-induced, some was probably forced by the government. In other words, it's so much easier to buy a car today, not knowing much about the business of selling cars, than it used to be in the past.

The dealerships in Southern San Diego (near the border like Chula Vista) seem to engage in shenanigans, starting with marked up stickers for sealants, trim, stripes, door guards, scotch guard, and waxes. In CA they are required to mark these mark-ups on a separate form outside of the sticker, but still creeps me out.

dino001

andres3 said:

The dealerships in Southern San Diego (near the border like Chula Vista) seem to engage in shenanigans, starting with marked up stickers for sealants, trim, stripes, door guards, scotch guard, and waxes. In CA they are required to mark these mark-ups on a separate form outside of the sticker, but still creeps me out.

I consider mop 'n glo more an annoyance than anything. Those things are relatively easy to negotiate out or simply walk away from. I'm talking true criminal acts, like switching paperwork, or dishonest gouging, like "four-square" plays without proper disclosures. Paint sealant or scotch guard seats are in different league. I don't like them "preinstalled" (it's fine with me if the F&I guy comes with an offer that I simply say no to), unfortunately dealers of Japanese brands are notorious for putting s..t here in Tampa (or sometimes it's their distributor), but it's not that hard to ignore the stickers, act like they're not there and just move on. BTW, that SET (Southeastern Toyota) sticker, with integrated "Toyoguard" package on the guard is a remnant of the by-gone era - but if you're a serious buyer with money and credit, they won't let you walk if you refuse to pay it.

Mr_Shiftright

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

I get this survey to take from Mercedes Benz. Sounds like if you did all 3 parts it would take about 2 hours to complete. They allow you to do one part if you prefer. Some of it sounds like a cognitive skills test....do you need an IQ of 140 to own an MB.

Here are the preliminary instructions;

There are a few components that will be involved as part of the Study, all of which are being conducted by X Group. Please read the descriptions below to understand all expectations.
​

Part One: One thirty minute telephone interview or a 10-15 minute online survey where you will be asked:

A series of questions on how you purchase parts and accessories for your vehicle (if at all);
1. Your level of knowledge regarding the mechanics of your vehicle; and,
Ways in which you gain knowledge about parts and repairs and how you engage in servicing of your vehicle.
Part Two: One digital card sorting exercise for approximately thirty minutes:

2. You will be sent a link and asked to arrange cards (with various parts and accessories on them) into categories that are intuitive to you.
Part Three: One or two website usability testing exercises approximately thirty minutes each:

3. You will be asked to complete a series of 3-5 tasks, such as locating specific information on the website.

I'll do it if they pay me $60 an hour for my time and expertise!

Get the cash upfront.

Good idea. I HATE chasing money.

roadburner

murphydog said:

tjc78 said:

Man I'm unlucky with tires this month.  First the Enclave now the Elantra with all its 4000 miles.  

Curious - you getting it plugged or patched? I only ask as I had nearly an identical screw that the corner gas station quickly and easily plugged (the only repair option I was even aware of) and my neighbor told me I should have had it patched on the inside. I have only had one other tire plugged and it lasted the life of the tire.

External plugs work okay most of the time, but the proper way to repair a tire is an internal patch/plug. The internal patch procedure gives the tech an opportunity to inspect the inside of the tire for damage and also still seals the puncture from both the inside and outside. That's important because you don't want water migrating into the steel belts and causing damage.

abacomike

roadburner said:

abacomike said:

oldfarmer50 said:

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

isellhondas said:

My point at the time was the fact that no matter how low we priced a car, people still wanted more. Very seldom did we hear " Wow, that's a great price, write it up!"

It's a great story. This was a classic situation, when uninformed buyer had a streak of luck, but they wouldn't know it. Their lifetime experience told them salespeople never say what they mean and always create that false urgency, so it just can't the one time it is real. They of course didn't understand the actual pricing components, what would be a typical expected discount. All the "know" is "dealers make a lot of money", so who knows, maybe this one they got for free from Honda, or who knows, right?

On the hindsight all they needed to do is look around for similar Odysseys on your lot and make a few quick comparison calculations, like this one sticker is 25K, red tag is 22K, this one has a sticked 30K, but the red tag is 25K. But this would require a quick decision. People get paralyzed by greed, especially when things are different from what they were prepared to face. Like a mistake on a tag.

Another salesperson told a similar story from a Mazda dealership. IIRC, they sold all their inventory for essentially invoice, except for the new(at that time) Mazdaspeed Protege- which they sold at MSRP. Again, a green pea wrote up a deal for a Mazdaspeed Protege at invoice. The sales manager went ahead and honored it. The car hadn't been through PDI yet so the customer was going to pick it up the following day. Lo and behold, the next day the customer calls the sales manager; "I talked with my friends and they think you all are screwing me over, so if you won't take off another $500 just tear up the deal." The manager gladly ripped up the deal.
Of course you know the rest of the story- the customer shops around and comes back with his tail between his legs asking the store to honor the original deal.
Fat chance, moron.

Oh oh RB you're starting to sound like a car salesman.

Definitely!  @roadburner, the more you talk and act like a car salesman, the more Craig will like you.  Come to think of it, I'm liking you more each day - who would have guessed!, 

I actually liked that story long before I ended up in the car business; it's a classic example of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Too lazy to do his own research he relies on some "friends" who don't have a shred of a clue about the market value of the car.

Mavens come in all shapes and sizes - mostly in the form of friends who know everything there is to know about car-buying. The incidence of car-buying mavens is highest in the family structure - uncles, brothers, fathers, sons and even grandfathers. The more men in a family, the higher the incidence of car-buying mavens. Take my brother, as an example. He said I had to buy a 2016 740Li in order to take advantage of huge amounts of trunk money. That's how I ended up with a 2017 740Li - I paid less for it than my car-buying maven brother paid for his 2016 - and the cars MSRP'd for almost the same price - within a few hundred dollars with mine being a bit higher. And don't think it's not eating at him daily!

tjc78

@murphydog
It's getting a plug. Dropped it off this morning at a local shop near my job. I've plugged plenty of tires and never had a problem. Why on earth they want to dismount the tire, rebalance etc ]when you can take 5 minutes and glue a plug in.

If I had the kit, I'd do it myself.

isellhondas

fintail said:

I think I have been stuck behind isell's Odyssey family, either stopping for an invisible red light, or too timid to take a free or blinking turn.

On my jog this afternoon. I saw a few situations that justified horn use (distracted drivers at lights, and a box-blocking Corolla (of course)). No horns. People here just don't honk. At least one of them deserved a few dozen slaps across the face or kicks to the butt.

I recently gave a bicyclist a quick, gentle tap on my horn because he kept wobbling out of the bike path into my lane. My "thank you" was getting flipped off!

stickguy

I had a screw in a tire on the sonata recently. Pretty sure Mavis did an internal patch.

tjc78

stickguy said:

I had a screw in a tire on the sonata recently. Pretty sure Mavis did an internal patch.

All the chains do. I was going to drop it off at Mavis on Cross Keys this morning, but I knew they would do a patch. The independent shops will still do a plug.

isellhondas

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

isellhondas said:

My point at the time was the fact that no matter how low we priced a car, people still wanted more. Very seldom did we hear " Wow, that's a great price, write it up!"

It's a great story. This was a classic situation, when uninformed buyer had a streak of luck, but they wouldn't know it. Their lifetime experience told them salespeople never say what they mean and always create that false urgency, so it just can't the one time it is real. They of course didn't understand the actual pricing components, what would be a typical expected discount. All the "know" is "dealers make a lot of money", so who knows, maybe this one they got for free from Honda, or who knows, right?

On the hindsight all they needed to do is look around for similar Odysseys on your lot and make a few quick comparison calculations, like this one sticker is 25K, red tag is 22K, this one has a sticked 30K, but the red tag is 25K. But this would require a quick decision. People get paralyzed by greed, especially when things are different from what they were prepared to face. Like a mistake on a tag.

Another salesperson told a similar story from a Mazda dealership. IIRC, they sold all their inventory for essentially invoice, except for the new(at that time) Mazdaspeed Protege- which they sold at MSRP. Again, a green pea wrote up a deal for a Mazdaspeed Protege at invoice. The sales manager went ahead and honored it. The car hadn't been through PDI yet so the customer was going to pick it up the following day. Lo and behold, the next day the customer calls the sales manager; "I talked with my friends and they think you all are screwing me over, so if you won't take off another $500 just tear up the deal." The manager gladly ripped up the deal.
Of course you know the rest of the story- the customer shops around and comes back with his tail between his legs asking the store to honor the original deal.
Fat chance, moron.

I love a story with a happy ending!

jmonroe

nyccarguy said:

@jmonroe - sorry for the delayed reply. I received a letter from Honda in August 2015 with our Pilot's VIN that states the following:

"On some 2009 - 2014 Pilot vehicles, the front suspension rear lower arm bushings (compliance bushing) may crack resulting in a leak or suspension noise because of exposure to heat and ozone in the atmosphere. To ensure your confidence in our product, American Honda is extending the warranty of the front suspension rear lower arm bushings to 7 years from the original date of purchase or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first."

I had been noticing a vibration coming from the front of the Pilot at speeds of 70 & up. My mechanic said to eliminate the 2 easiest causes so he can better diagnose. So at his direction, I had an alignment performed and had all 4 tires balanced. The vibration got better, but was still there. My mechanic took the Pilot on a very extensive ride over a variety of surfaces to pinpoint the problem. He then brought it back to his shop and put it up on the lift.

After driving the Pilot, he told me the rear pads and rotors were completely shot and needed to be replaced. He noticed a leak from the front axle and that these 2 rubber bushings on the front lower control arm were cracked and leaking. I trust him and always say: "John, whatever it is just fix it and use Genuine Honda parts."

He proceeded to tell me that these "compliance bushings" were pretty expensive (for what they are) and there is a decent amount of labor involved in replacing them. He told me "ball park, $700." I told him to replace the rear brake pads and rotors, but hold off on the "compliance bushings."

I rummaged through my Pilot folder, did a quick google search, and confirmed with @sda (who has a similar Pilot with a few more miles than mine) that this will be indeed covered under this extended warranty.

The Pilot got new compliance bushings, my wife got to drive my Infiniti Q40 for the day, and I got to take my Prelude to work. Everyone's happy!

Thanks for the explanation.

When I think of a bushing, I'm thinking of a small rubber doughnut type of gizmo so I couldn't understand how a bushing could "leak". So, I went to a YouTube video and searched "Honda Compliance Bushing" and I saw where it is what used to be the lower ball joint on old domestic cars. This new device, just like the old ball joints has a grease fitting, so that is how it leaks. The rubber boot cracks and the grease oozes out. Some things never change.

Back when I was at my fighting weight and owned only GM cars (60's through 80's), I got to be pretty good at changing tie rod ends, idler arms, pitman arms and the dreaded upper and or lower ball joints. On GM cars of that era the ball joints were riveted in at the factory so the rivets had to be drilled or chiseled out and then the new balls joints were bolted in, even when the job was done at the dealership. A lot of times it was tough getting a drill in there to do it. That is why changing ball joints were such a PITA when doing it in your garage. The pros used a cutting torch but I didn't have one of those ergo the drill and chisel method. I guess I could have taken my car to a shop and let the pros do it but I had to convince myself I could do it. Other than the ball joints, I'd say most guys that could hammer a wrench could do the job at home by the time they spent taking their car to a shop.

I see where the "compliance bushings" are pressed in and of course, a special tool is needed for that, along with dismembering some of the steering components under there, just so you can get at the bushing. So that is why the price is $700. I'm not sure most car owners would tackle that job today because of all the work to get at the "compliance bushing".

They ain't called the "good old days for nothing".

Thanks again for getting back to me.

jmonroe

stickguy

Flip side, today, most people don't replace ball joints and all those bushings 3x by 100k miles.

ab348

dino001 said:

I consider mop 'n glo more an annoyance than anything. Those things are relatively easy to negotiate out or simply walk away from. I'm talking true criminal acts, like switching paperwork, or dishonest gouging, like "four-square" plays without proper disclosures. Paint sealant or scotch guard seats are in different league. I don't like them "preinstalled" (it's fine with me if the F&I guy comes with an offer that I simply say no to), unfortunately dealers of Japanese brands are notorious for putting s..t here in Tampa (or sometimes it's their distributor), but it's not that hard to ignore the stickers, act like they're not there and just move on. BTW, that SET (Southeastern Toyota) sticker, with integrated "Toyoguard" package on the guard is a remnant of the by-gone era - but if you're a serious buyer with money and credit, they won't let you walk if you refuse to pay it.

The dealer group where I bought my last 2 cars does two things that drive me nuts. All of their inventoried new cars have VIN etching in the glass, and all get dealer-installed locking lug nuts. I forget what those two things add up to but it is a few hundred dollars total. It is just presented as a fait accompli. I don't know where my next car is coming from but those things are no longer going to be paid for by me.

jmonroe

stickguy said:

Flip side, today, most people don't replace ball joints and all those bushings 3x by 100k miles.

Back in the day when I changed suspension parts I only had to do it once per car. Probably because I insisted only on Moog parts at the parts store. There was no way that I was going to get the off market cheaper parts. The labor was still the same and I didn't want to do it again because I saved a few measly bucks. Especially the ball joints.

If nothing else, getting suspension parts replaced at the dealer or doing it yourself, was a perfect reminder how important greasing these parts really was. Back in those days I bought late model used cars and kept them for at least 6 years (some longer) so I attribute some of the work I had to do because of the previous owners lack of maintenance of these parts. Somehow, I never got a car with a bad engine but I poured oil in my cars at 3000 miles, rain or shine and did automatic transmission fluid changes at the 40 to 50K mile range.

jmonroe

stickguy

the local auto mall here has gone big on some fancy name protection package (paint stuff) and has this listed along with other fluff on all their cars. Maybe $799 total? Turns me off, and if I try to buy there, will be totally ignored by me

murphydog

tjc78 said:

@murphydog
It's getting a plug. Dropped it off this morning at a local shop near my job. I've plugged plenty of tires and never had a problem. Why on earth they want to dismount the tire, rebalance etc ]when you can take 5 minutes and glue a plug in.

If I had the kit, I'd do it myself.

That has been my experience too, though I understand how an internal patch would be better. My experience is the plugs are good enough to last the life of the tire.

Time will tell - though I am itching to put more of an "LT" tire on my truck instead of the "P" tires that came from the factory.

jmonroe

murphydog said:

tjc78 said:

@murphydog
It's getting a plug. Dropped it off this morning at a local shop near my job. I've plugged plenty of tires and never had a problem. Why on earth they want to dismount the tire, rebalance etc ]when you can take 5 minutes and glue a plug in.

If I had the kit, I'd do it myself.

That has been my experience too, though I understand how an internal patch would be better. My experience is the plugs are good enough to last the life of the tire.

Time will tell - though I am itching to put more of an "LT" tire on my truck instead of the "P" tires that came from the factory.

I've had both plugs and patches but not both at the same time. The first time I saw a patch installed (back in the early 70's) I was surprised the patch material was so thin and was skeptical how well it would hold up but it did.

I don't want to talk anymore about this stuff for obvious reasons.

jmonroe

dino001

Here is example of what I'm talking about. It's a picture of 22K Corolla in my local dealership. "Toyoguard Platinum". Wow: whole two oil changes, roadside assistance, rental assistance (only if the car is broken), exterior/interior "protection": $699, true value, about $300 at best (compare roadside assistance with three years of AAA, can of this, can of that) But wait there is more: they put another extra-extra paint protector. So sealant is not enough, now you get paint protection film on the hood and doors. And it's only $618. Who wouldn't want that? And of course $699 dealer fee. So now we just raised the price by over 10 percent adding about 2 percent of actual value. That's how we do it here, in Florida. Of course then you get a "discount" and they sold it to you "at invoice" with fat 2 grand of add-ons.

BTW, same website has a 60-month lease on it. LEASE. I see those kind of things and the place is crossed out of my list.

oldfarmer50

ab348 said:

dino001 said:

I consider mop 'n glo more an annoyance than anything. Those things are relatively easy to negotiate out or simply walk away from. I'm talking true criminal acts, like switching paperwork, or dishonest gouging, like "four-square" plays without proper disclosures. Paint sealant or scotch guard seats are in different league. I don't like them "preinstalled" (it's fine with me if the F&I guy comes with an offer that I simply say no to), unfortunately dealers of Japanese brands are notorious for putting s..t here in Tampa (or sometimes it's their distributor), but it's not that hard to ignore the stickers, act like they're not there and just move on. BTW, that SET (Southeastern Toyota) sticker, with integrated "Toyoguard" package on the guard is a remnant of the by-gone era - but if you're a serious buyer with money and credit, they won't let you walk if you refuse to pay it.

The dealer group where I bought my last 2 cars does two things that drive me nuts. All of their inventoried new cars have VIN etching in the glass, and all get dealer-installed locking lug nuts. I forget what those two things add up to but it is a few hundred dollars total. It is just presented as a fait accompli. I don't know where my next car is coming from but those things are no longer going to be paid for by me.

Yeah, that would pretty much be a deal killer for me.

tjc78

dino001 said:

Here is example of what I'm talking about. It's a picture of 22K Corolla in my local dealership. "Toyoguard Platinum". Wow: whole two oil changes, roadside assistance, rental assistance (only if the car is broken), exterior/interior "protection": $699, true value, about $300 at best (compare roadside assistance with three years of AAA, can of this, can of that) But wait there is more: they put another extra-extra paint protector. So sealant is not enough, now you get paint protection film on the hood and doors. And it's only $618. Who wouldn't want that? And of course $699 dealer fee. So now we just raised the price by over 10 percent adding about 2 percent of actual value. That's how we do it here, in Florida. Of course then you get a "discount" and they sold it to you "at invoice" with fat 2 grand of add-ons. BTW, same website has a 60-month lease on it. LEASE. I see those kind of things and the place is crossed out of my list.

SET is known for these crazy add on packages.  They are installed at the port before the dealers even get the cars. I believe the dealers have no choice but to accept the cars that way per agreements.  

@abacomike, any more insight to this?

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

the local auto mall here has gone big on some fancy name protection package (paint stuff) and has this listed along with other fluff on all their cars. Maybe $799 total? Turns me off, and if I try to buy there, will be totally ignored by me

My BIL got sold some thing call Auto Butler which as far as I could tell was a wax job once a year. I think it was about $700.

stickguy

just by coincidence, I found this nice tightwad special (I was looking for a sample of the pack stuff from my local dealer, but they don't list that on the website that I can find). A car with an actual stick shift, and less than 16K brand new for an actual "real" car.

http://www.hyundaiofturnersville.com/detail-2017-hyundai-elantra-se_2_0l_manual-new-14954301.html

fintail

A stick and hubcaps. That's a car with no pretenses.

stickguy

I grew up with cars with sticks, and if lucky, center caps. Full hubbies would have been a luxury upgrade.

pensfan83

When I bought my Fusion the dealer installed what they referred to as an "Appeareance Package" which consisted of undercoating, wheel locks, dealer installed all weather floor mats , and another item or 2 I'm forgetting.

When we were negotiating I simply said I am not paying for those items and left it at that. At first they thought I was joking but quickly realized I wasn't joking. The sales manager offer to split it with me and I said no and anytime they tried to counter me I said no and wouldn't elaborate further. They finally gave in and reduced the price. They tried to spin it as their way of ensuring the car maintained a good appearance. 

Like @dino001 said if you are a serious buyer and have the means to purchase the car it's highly doubtful they are going to let someone walk out over that type of stuff though they will  try their hardest to get you to pay.

jmonroe

fintail said:

A stick and hubcaps. That's a car with no pretenses.

What would you expect a throw away to have?

jmonroe

dino001

Now, I remember an opposite happening. These were times when Mini was just introduced to the market and the car was so hot, people could sell them used and make profit vs. MSRP (really early days). My buddy and I went to this local new Mini dealer, just curious what the hubbub was all about. We see they got a batch and there was a line for a test drive. We noticed all of them with this really expensive clear plastic protection stuff on the hood (really hideous, IMHO). So we talk to the salesman, what's up with that, he fully honestly says we add it to them all. So the friend asks what if I don't want it? Oh, they all have it, so you can take it off, but you'll pay anyway. So the friend, what if I order one without this. The guy says with a straight face, and I'm not kidding, yeah, we can skip it at the port, but we will still charge you for it. Just beautiful. This is what happens when anybody gets just a little more power than they usually have - they get drunk. The arrogance of the statement by this salesman is beyond the pale. This exchange was by the way one of the reasons I feel no sympathy to this industry, whatsoever. I generally get along with the salespeople just fine. It's not personal for me one way or another, but I do want to respect their time, if I can, but if needed I will take their time without the transaction, cause it is their job after all.

If it comes to pricing, I'd be all about whatever the market says, so if you have to discount the car deep into your cost just to sell it, don't expect me feeling sorry for you or your owner, just like I don't expect you feel sorry for me, if I had to pay full sticker (or more) to get something in short supply (assuming I would be so inclined, which I'm usually not). I honestly would prefer no Turkish bazaar environment, but more like grocery supermarket, where price is the price, but whatever - if that's how it's got to be, then I'll adapt. Only one time I felt like the salesman crossed a little line, when he got indignant on my suggestion that I could buy the car anywhere, if all he could offer was the list price on my ED BMW. He went on how nice he was and all blah, blah his time. I essentially said, I spent similar time in other places, too and that's the way the industry plays the game. BTW, after I left he wouldn't even follow up with a short email confirming that I didn't give him fake data and saying here is my phone number if you needed me. Anyway, I digressed.

jmonroe

I thought these "dealer add-ons" were a thing of the past but maybe they are making a comeback.

You guys are forcing me to take a walk through the mega dealer near me. That would be a good sampling since I think he has at least 6 car lines at this place. Might even take Mrs. j to see the new Subies.

Wish me luck.

jmonroe

dino001

jmonroe said:

I thought these "dealer add-ons" were a thing of the past but maybe they are making a comeback.

You guys are forcing me to take a walk through the mega dealer near me. That would be a good sampling since I think he has at least 6 car lines at this place. Might even take Mrs. j to see the new Subies.

Wish me luck.

jmonroe

I think you see them on certain brands much more than others. Those are almost non-existent on upscale brands, also rare at Subaru/VW places, whereas raging at Huyndai/Kia, Toyota/Honda places. Domestic seem a tossup.

jmonroe

oldfarmer50 said:

stickguy said:

the local auto mall here has gone big on some fancy name protection package (paint stuff) and has this listed along with other fluff on all their cars. Maybe $799 total? Turns me off, and if I try to buy there, will be totally ignored by me

My BIL got sold some thing call Auto Butler which as far as I could tell was a wax job once a year. I think it was about $700.

I had a Butler sticker on the drivers door jam of the '05 XG 350 that blew up. The dealer said they threw it in so I didn't have to argue that out of the price.

FWIW, Son #1 worked at a very large Chevy dealer near us as a lot boy for 2 years when he was in high school. When they did the super wax job that they charged for (I don't remember the price they charged but this was in the mid '80's) he was instructed to only do the hood, trunk, roof (only about as far as he could easily reach on both sides) and the doors down to the belt line.

He sure did get an education about the car biz those two summers.

jmonroe

roadburner

I can't talk about the details right now, but there's a guy we are working with who is being offered a great deal but still wants to chip away another $200. I told the SM that if I had the money I would be all over that deal.

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

just by coincidence, I found this nice tightwad special (I was looking for a sample of the pack stuff from my local dealer, but they don't list that on the website that I can find). A car with an actual stick shift, and less than 16K brand new for an actual "real" car.

http://www.hyundaiofturnersville.com/detail-2017-hyundai-elantra-se_2_0l_manual-new-14954301.html

No pics of the interior. Better check, at that price you could be sitting on apple boxes.

qbrozen

stickguy said:

just by coincidence, I found this nice tightwad special (I was looking for a sample of the pack stuff from my local dealer, but they don't list that on the website that I can find). A car with an actual stick shift, and less than 16K brand new for an actual "real" car. http://www.hyundaiofturnersville.com/detail-2017-hyundai-elantra-se_2_0l_manual-new-14954301.html

AC and PW/PL, so that's good, but no mention of BT. That would be a deal breaker for me.

houdini1

bwia said:

The G90's interior does indeed look sumptuous and a no excuse price tag to match.

I agree bwia. That is my idea of a very nice luxury automobile.

imidazol97

dino001 said:

But wait there is more: they put another extra-extra paint protector. So sealant is not enough, now you get paint protection film on the hood and doors. And it's only $618. Who wouldn't want that?

I think it's terrible that toyota (and other companies) put such poor paint finishes on their cars that they need a protector to keep the weather off of them. LOL

Actually, someone who bought a Camry back in 1995 or so told the salesman if the car needed the protection plan warranty at extra cost that he was pushing because so many things go wrong with Camrys, then she was shopping for the wrong car. He shut up.