Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

stickguy

Starting to feel better I did not hold out and get a new VW. My son is on his own. Might have to discourage him from getting a GLI to replace his Jetta!

henryn

I just got an email from a local Honda dealer. Sounds like the deals on 2014 CR-V's are getting very interesting.

stickguy

that is a whole lot cheaper than the Honda national offers. would love to see the fine print on that baby. But if it was legit, it would mean even with taxes, it would be less than 1K to drive out and under $200/mo payment.

now that is the kind of deal where it makes sense to just get something new to send off to college with the kid. If I wasn't already out of the market.

explorerx4

@driver100, One thing that throws up a red flag for me about the clutch needing replacement is that the service manager balked at giving you the old parts because the clutch is going to be send out to be rebuilt. Maybe Audi's are different than other cars, but that's like saying they are going to send out your brake pads to be rebuilt.

driver100

Jayrider I did a search looking for other clutch failures in 2013 Audi A4's and came up empty. No recalls or service bulletins. Sounds like you got a defective system.

I would even accept 50% at this point, though I think it is the car's fault...probably 90%. I wonder if a spring failed and didn't bring the plate back. Or it was always rubbing. I don't even see how they could say it is my wife's fault if they haven't actually examined it yet.

GG said Snail Mail. Actually, I sent an overnight letter to the Audi U.S. VP succinctly stating my issues, who was involved in rectifying those issues. how they failed, and what I expected as resolution.

I'll keep that in mind...letter to VP. Of course it goes to Canadian head office, which may be harder to figure out. Your story was logical, just as mine is, it doesn't seem right that they hold all the cards.

houdini:. Sounds like Audi can stonewall like a cell phone carrier and I don't need that hassle.

Cell phone companies are worse, but this is a close second....hmm, maybe 3rd, airlines are probably second.

Mike If there have been reported issues with the clutch in A4's, you should try to document those issues as you build your case.

btw...our daughter took the car in yesterday. It will be fixed by tomorrow. We fly back on Dec 17th for 2 weeks (still am not sure why), so we need that car when we get home. And our daughter uses it to get to work....the child psychologist. I like your idea of back up information. Some people found examples on google, send me links if you find any...I'll certainly include them.

Stick I would fight this a long way. Other than not being there in person, perfect situation for driver. He can leave it with them for 5 months since no one is using it!

I wish we could leave it. Our daughter would like to use it (her husband is the one who won't spend a dime for anything and I think her car isn't in great shape), so it will be fixed by tomorrow. I just have to make my case after the fact.

fezo said:

Underneath it all Audi is Volkswagen. They don't do customer service.

VW/Audi are probably near the bottom of the barrel, though I don't know if any of the car companies go out of their way for customers. They seem to have learned my motto from my retail days, "The customer is Almost Always Wrong".

driver100

@driver100, One thing that throws up a red flag for me about the clutch needing replacement is that the service manager balked at giving you the old parts because the clutch is going to be send out to be rebuilt. Maybe Audi's are different than other cars, but that's like saying they are going to send out your brake pads to be rebuilt.

We do have a law in Ontario Canada that if a customer requests the old parts they have to turn them over. The sales manager was reluctant and he said they were worth something, so had to go back to be rebuilt. I think he means made into after market parts, so I get a reduction on my bill because they are like a return, the dealer gets compensated for.

I guess there is a demand for rebuilt clutches for Audi's...probably a big market for them. That's another reason VW/Audi is so profitable, they can remarket their faulty parts.

imidazol97

driver100 said:

, One thing that throws up a red flag for me about the clutch needing replacement is that the service manager balked at giving you the old parts because the clutch is going to be send out to be rebuilt. Maybe Audi's are different than other cars, but that's like saying they are going to send out your brake pads to be rebuilt.

\\

Sorry to hear about your clutch problem.

I was going to suggest taking it to an Audi specialty shop for a second opinion, paid if necessary. I don't trust some stores to give the full story. I have seen too many people ripped off for major repairs when all the store did was a minor inexpensive fix. Yet they told the folks they had to do a big repair.

I can't imagine the demand for Audi parts to rebuild for the company would be that great. I would HOPE they are putting in NEW parts on yours. I certainly wouldn't want rebuilt parts on my car when it's fairly new.

driver100

imidazol97 said:

driver100 said:

, One thing that throws up a red flag for me about the clutch needing replacement is that the service manager balked at giving you the old parts because the clutch is going to be send out to be rebuilt. Maybe Audi's are different than other cars, but that's like saying they are going to send out your brake pads to be rebuilt.

\\

Sorry to hear about your clutch problem.

I was going to suggest taking it to an Audi specialty shop for a second opinion, paid if necessary. I don't trust some stores to give the full story. I have seen too many people ripped off for major repairs when all the store did was a minor inexpensive fix. Yet they told the folks they had to do a big repair.

I can't imagine the demand for Audi parts to rebuild for the company would be that great. I would HOPE they are putting in NEW parts on yours. I certainly wouldn't want rebuilt parts on my car when it's fairly new.

I don't trust too many repair shops. They are always looking for make work projects. When our 95 Volvo kept cutting out we took it to our closest dealer, and they couldn't fix it but they said the rear brakes needed to be done. We took it to another dealer and they eventually fixed the car after 2 tries, but, they said the car needed new front brakes. How could this happen?
It's one reason I really like if at all possible, to have a car that is under warranty....but, in this case, the warranty didn't help.....they got me another way.

About taking it to an Audi specialty shop....if we were home I would have done that. We have an excellent indie garage.......but, the car has to be fixed and I just can't get 2nd opinions.

driver100

I got back this email from the local newspaper car columnist. It is pretty good, but, I was hoping for a little more information.

, if the clutch is actually worn out there is little you can do because they can just blame it on wear and tear or abuse. The problem could also be that it was never adjusted properly and if you use Audi Volkswagen in Oakville for you maintenance then maybe they should have foreseen the need to adjust the clutch before it failed. A clutch should not wear out in 16000 kilometres so I would ask them to have Volkswagen Canada determine if there should be any type of compensation for you. If nothing else make sure that you keep the old clutch for future examination.

The car was in for an oil change about 2 months ago.

ab348

jayrider said:

I did a search looking for other clutch failures in 2013 Audi A4's and came up empty. No recalls or service bulletins. Sounds like you got a defective system. You could approach them with the fact that you have been driving sticks for years and never had a problem. There was no abuse on your end. At worst, get them to do the repair at a discounted rate. For Audi to fix it would cost them virtually nothing in their overall operation. Try to get them to work with you and good luck.

@driver100 , here are a few links I found of people with clutch issues:

http://www.audiworld.com/forums/s4-b8-platform-discussion-134/clutch-problem-2012-s4-2826491/

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/484395-Overheated-Clutch-Problems-Common

http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?87091-Clutch-Problems-Audi-UK-Aware/page2

http://www.audiworld.com/forums/s4-b8-platform-discussion-134/2013-s4-clutch-slipping-2868873/

Searching for "Audi A4 clutch slipping" brings up no end of results.

It is very easy for them to claim it is wear and tear due to driving style/error but that can hide a host of manufacturing/component quality issues. I find it hard to accept an experienced manual transmission driver would use up a clutch at 10,000 miles.

driver100

ab348 said:

jayrider said:

I did a search looking for other clutch failures in 2013 Audi A4's and came up empty. No recalls or service bulletins. Sounds like you got a defective system. You could approach them with the fact that you have been driving sticks for years and never had a problem. There was no abuse on your end. At worst, get them to do the repair at a discounted rate. For Audi to fix it would cost them virtually nothing in their overall operation. Try to get them to work with you and good luck.

@driver100 , here are a few links I found of people with clutch issues:

http://www.audiworld.com/forums/s4-b8-platform-discussion-134/clutch-problem-2012-s4-2826491/

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/484395-Overheated-Clutch-Problems-Common

http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?87091-Clutch-Problems-Audi-UK-Aware/page2

http://www.audiworld.com/forums/s4-b8-platform-discussion-134/2013-s4-clutch-slipping-2868873/

Searching for "Audi A4 clutch slipping" brings up no end of results.

It is very easy for them to claim it is wear and tear due to driving style/error but that can hide a host of manufacturing/component quality issues. I find it hard to accept an experienced manual transmission driver would use up a clutch at 10,000 miles.

Excellent info ab. It seems a lot of people have problems with Audi clutches. It seems many were repaired under warranty too.

I am putting these links into an email ready to send off. I'll see what the sales manager says when he gets back to work tomorrow...I am sure it won't be good news.

driver100

The newspaper columnist wrote back a second time...he had more reasons why it could be a manufacturing fault.

a clutch can also prematurely wear out because of a faulty clutch pressure plate so make sure you keep both for examination. Tell the service manager that your wife has driven standard cars for years and never had a problem and that you believe that it is the fault of the clutch pressure plate or a misadjusted clutch that has caused the problem, which in both cases should be inspected by Volkswagen Canada for some type of compensation. Because of the low kilometers I also want you to ask the service manager to contact Volkswagen Canada for some type of compensation and if not then you want to retain the parts for a third party inspection.

You would think he is a pretty credable source, and he seems to clearly state it very well could be the cars fault. I sent this information on to the SM, and I have asked him to make sure I get these parts as well.

explorerx4

@driver100, I checked the Audi website CA and USA. The description of the warranty is pretty vague. I would check your owner's manual when you can get back to the car. I did see there is a place you can enter your VIN to see recalls/service campaigns.

ab348

driver100 said:

Excellent info ab. It seems a lot of people have problems with Audi clutches. It seems many were repaired under warranty too.

I am putting these links into an email ready to send off. I'll see what the sales manager says when he gets back to work tomorrow...I am sure it won't be good news.

One of the links I read (not sure if it one of the ones above) dealt with a low-mileage A4 that had similar problems to yours. When opened up they discovered the flywheel was defective (improperly machined I think) and that caused the problem.

Here is one with a defective clutch that is even lower mileage than yours.

http://www.audiworld.com/forums/audi-a5-s5-rs5-coupe-cabrio-125/a5-clutch-problem-very-disappointing-2838803/

stickguy

I just have to say. I love the internet. You can find anything if you know where to look!

fezo

Absolutely demand to get the old clutch back. If nothing else it will keep them just a touch more toward honest.

nyccarguy

@driver100‌

I read about the clutch failing in your wife's A4. Yes it sucks. $2K isn't the end of the world. Your daughter needs a car to drive. Since you are in FL, get the car fixed, then make your case to get your money refunded from Audi Canada.

Write a (snail mail) letter stating the facts. The A4 is your 1st Audi & that you have been extremely happy with it up to this point. That the car is your wife's daily driver. She is an extremely competent manual transmission driver with x years of experience. Reiterate your wife's age and the fact that she doesn't race the car or ride the clutch, & that you've never had to replace a clutch in any of her cars over the years and that you were shocked when the service writer told you it needed to be replaced with just 10,000 miles on the odometer.

Tell them it appears as if you aren't the only one with this problem.
Print out the many different cases you are finding in the online forums.

Don't threaten to never buy another Audi/VW product again. That doesn't work. Tell them again why you like the car so much & your wife's car isn't the only car in your fleet. That you have a Passat in Florida that you'd like to eventually replace with an A5 Cabriolet. You have an E Class Mercedes (they don't need to know you've had it a week, besides you could be @breld for all they know) that you might eventually trade for an A6. Ask them to do the right thing and reimburse you for the $2K.

Make sure you give them ALL of your contact information in Canada & the US.

Good luck & keep us posted!

28firefighter

I find these issues with Audi customer care very interesting. My experience with VW NA corporate has been extremely positive.  At least it was a  year ago when my Dad had an issue with his Touraeg TDI.  

I can't give more detail at the risk of violating a confidentiality agreement, but either way, I'm surprised at the negative experience given that I would expect Audi's customer care experience to be that much better. 

Sorry to hear about your troubles, @driver100‌. If nothing else, it's aggravating.  

roadburner

explorerx4 said:

@driver100, One thing that throws up a red flag for me about the clutch needing replacement is that the service manager balked at giving you the old parts because the clutch is going to be send out to be rebuilt. Maybe Audi's are different than other cars, but that's like saying they are going to send out your brake pads to be rebuilt.

I know BMW dealers collect some cores because they sell remanufactured parts such as alternators, clutch discs, and starters- but the parts are sent back to BMW and aren't rebuilt by some local shop.

I have a friend who used to be the sales manager of a Audi/BMW/Porsche dealership. Off the record he referred to Audis as "60,000 mile cars."

driver100

nyccarguy said:

@driver100‌

I read about the clutch failing in your wife's A4. Yes it sucks. $2K isn't the end of the world. Your daughter needs a car to drive. Since you are in FL, get the car fixed, then make your case to get your money refunded from Audi Canada.

Write a (snail mail) letter stating the facts. The A4 is your 1st Audi & that you have been extremely happy with it up to this point. That the car is your wife's daily driver. She is an extremely competent manual transmission driver with x years of experience. Reiterate your wife's age and the fact that she doesn't race the car or ride the clutch, & that you've never had to replace a clutch in any of her cars over the years and that you were shocked when the service writer told you it needed to be replaced with just 10,000 miles on the odometer.

Tell them it appears as if you aren't the only one with this problem.
Print out the many different cases you are finding in the online forums.

Don't threaten to never buy another Audi/VW product again. That doesn't work. Tell them again why you like the car so much & your wife's car isn't the only car in your fleet. That you have a Passat in Florida that you'd like to eventually replace with an A5 Cabriolet. You have an E Class Mercedes (they don't need to know you've had it a week, besides you could be @breld for all they know) that you might eventually trade for an A6. Ask them to do the right thing and reimburse you for the $2K.

Make sure you give them ALL of your contact information in Canada & the US.

Good luck & keep us posted!

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions....they all help. I have found the name of the President of Audi Canada...Wolfgang Hoffman...and I will send him a letter.

nyc you have some really good practical suggestions. I think you are right, as soon as you say you won't buy another Audi you will lose...that kind of cuts the discussion off.

Fezo, what you said is true about asking for the parts, gives me a little more leverage. I don't know what I will do with the parts but you are right, asking for them at least keeps them on their toes.

Firefighter, I am glad you got satisfaction from Audi group, however, confidentiality agreement means they aren't that open and friendly to deal with.

ab; That article was interesting....burned the clutch out after 1600 miles. I think it shows these things can happen.

Explorer, I don't think the clutch was recalled or service would have replaced it. But, that gives me an idea to check U.S. and Europe sites as it may have been recalled somewhere else. If they can get away without a recall in a country they will.

rb I would say Audis are more fragile than MBs or bmws. If you look at the door hinges they are thin and puny compared to the other cars. But, it is a lot of fun to drive, VW gets that part right.

I appreciate your comments, makes me sure I am doing the right thing by pursuing this thing.

graphicguy

driver....here are the Audi execs in the U.S. based out of Auburn HIlls, MI. Not sure about Canada.....

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=7704527

And yes, as others say, they will stonewall. I know when I started complaining, all of a sudden, the servicing dealer HAD TO HAVE their loaner back, while working on my car.

Luck, I have other vehicles available to me. I know the selling dealer in Chicago was quite shocked when I showed up at their service dept (a 5 hour drive).

graphicguy

driver....just found these guys for Canada....not much there, though.

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/people.asp?privcapId=8032344

ab348

Diego Ramos is long gone from Canada, but Mr. Hoffmann is apparently still running things here. He was previously COO of Lamboghini America among other jobs!

Here is his Twitter page - not much there except superficial stuff:

https://twitter.com/whoffmann66

Here is an interesting story - is your dealer Audi of Mississauga?

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/468723-Brand-new-S4-Horror-Story-need-an-advice

fezo

The way I figure it the next time - if there ever is a next time = I deal with VW or possibly Audi it will be to lease. I generally don't believe in leasing but three years with a GTI that will be in warranty the whole time I could live with. Then I could get a Madaspeed 3 (unless they make a "gotta have it Mazdaspeed 6 in the interim).

abacomike

Driver's experience with Audi and my experience with Mercedes, while different in terms of the specific problem, are quite similar.  In my case, the dealer bent over backwards to soften the impact of the problem of a car being improperly produced in Germany.  Mercedes corporate has made my life miserable in trying to get a replacement E400 produced and shipped expeditiously.  My replacement car has not even been produced yet (next Tuesday Is the build date).  Mercedes corporate is unyielding and has communicated to me they are doing everything to make me happy.  They are kidding, right!

It is my opinion driver will get the same treatment from Audi corporate.  They might put some pressure on the dealership, but that is all corporate will do.  The problem in driver's case is his dealership.  If the dealer goes to bat for the customer, things get done.  In my case, the dealer did everything it could to solve my problem in waiting for a replacement vehicle.  In driver's case, the dealer has done nothing but replace his clutch and hand him a bill.

roadburner

abacomike said:

Driver's experience with Audi and my experience with Mercedes, while different in terms of the specific problem, are quite similar.  In my case, the dealer bent over backwards to soften the impact of the problem of a car being improperly produced in Germany.  Mercedes corporate has made my life miserable in trying to get a replacement E400 produced and shipped expeditiously.  My replacement car has not even been produced yet (next Tuesday Is the build date).  Mercedes corporate is unyielding and has communicated to me they are doing everything to make me happy.  They are kidding, right!

It is my opinion driver will get the same treatment from Audi corporate.  They might put some pressure on the dealership, but that is all corporate will do.  The problem in driver's case is his dealership.  If the dealer goes to bat for the customer, things get done.  In my case, the dealer did everything it could to solve my problem in waiting for a replacement vehicle.  In driver's case, the dealer has done nothing but replace his clutch and hand him a bill.

Exactly; the dealer makes ALL the difference. Some service departments look for ways to help their customers while others seem to tale any opportunity to deny warranty coverage. In the US the dealer franchise laws make it very difficult for an automaker to can a particular dealer for anything less than felony fraud or similar.

driver100

graphicguy said:

driver....just found these guys for Canada....not much there, though.

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/people.asp?privcapId=8032344

Thanks GG. Once I get negative treatment from the sales manager writing Wolfgang will be my next step.

I haven't heard back yet and it is 11:05 a.m., I guess SM will be in this afternoon.

driver100

ab348 said:

Diego Ramos is long gone from Canada, but Mr. Hoffmann is apparently still running things here. He was previously COO of Lamboghini America among other jobs!

Here is his Twitter page - not much there except superficial stuff:

https://twitter.com/whoffmann66

Here is an interesting story - is your dealer Audi of Mississauga?

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/468723-Brand-new-S4-Horror-Story-need-an-advice

That is an incredible story. My dealer is the next one west...Oakville. I did email customer service at Head Office, but have not heard back. I find decent companies at least acknowledge they got your email and will get back to you. Makes me feel like my email went into cyberspace.

driver100

fezo said:

The way I figure it the next time - if there ever is a next time = I deal with VW or possibly Audi it will be to lease. I generally don't believe in leasing but three years with a GTI that will be in warranty the whole time I could live with. Then I could get a Madaspeed 3 (unless they make a "gotta have it Mazdaspeed 6 in the interim).

A lease wouldn't have helped in this situation Fezo. They will try to blame it on the driver if possible.

Small claims court may be the way to go....seems everyone but Audi thinks it is the driver's fault.

driver100

abacomike said:

Driver's experience with Audi and my experience with Mercedes, while different in terms of the specific problem, are quite similar.  In my case, the dealer bent over backwards to soften the impact of the problem of a car being improperly produced in Germany.  Mercedes corporate has made my life miserable in trying to get a replacement E400 produced and shipped expeditiously.  My replacement car has not even been produced yet (next Tuesday Is the build date).  Mercedes corporate is unyielding and has communicated to me they are doing everything to make me happy.  They are kidding, right!

It is my opinion driver will get the same treatment from Audi corporate.  They might put some pressure on the dealership, but that is all corporate will do.  The problem in driver's case is his dealership.  If the dealer goes to bat for the customer, things get done.  In my case, the dealer did everything it could to solve my problem in waiting for a replacement vehicle.  In driver's case, the dealer has done nothing but replace his clutch and hand him a bill.

It seems in my case the dealer may have tried to get the car fixed under warranty. According to the service manager, they won't cover the clutch when they see it is burned out. Well, it could have burned out because of mechanical problems too.

It seems he was sympathetic to me, but his hands were tied. Maybe the fought a bit.....we'll see how much the sales manager will fight. I think the biggest problem will be Head Office, they don't want to give up without a fight.

jayrider

If the car had an automatic transmission, there would have been no problems. Think I'd pass on a stick with any euro auto.

jwilliams2

abacomike said:

Driver's experience with Audi and my experience with Mercedes, while different in terms of the specific problem, are quite similar.  In my case, the dealer bent over backwards to soften the impact of the problem of a car being improperly produced in Germany.  Mercedes corporate has made my life miserable in trying to get a replacement E400 produced and shipped expeditiously.  My replacement car has not even been produced yet (next Tuesday Is the build date).  Mercedes corporate is unyielding and has communicated to me they are doing everything to make me happy.  They are kidding, right!.

Mike, perhaps you are being too hard on MB. I realize the delay in your replacement car has caused an undue hardship, and I fully sympathize. I worked at an MB dealership for 11 years, in sales and sales management, similar to you.

I have also been to MB plants both in Germany (QBD) and the US. They build their cars much like most car manufacturers. They use a “just in time” method. Watching the assembly line process, all parts and sub-assemblies arrive in a computer controlled carefully choreographed manner. This process is many weeks long to insure everything arrives in time for the actual assembly.

To throw an odd car would completely disrupt the entire chain, and is just not feasible. I would think they gave you the first available build slot in the production sequence. It is frustrating, but I think you should cut them some slack. They are probably doing the best they can.

ab348

jayrider said:

If the car had an automatic transmission, there would have been no problems. Think I'd pass on a stick with any euro auto.

In my research for Driver, I found a bunch of references to problems with Audi automatics too even though I wasn't looking for them (I guess "clutch" in the search string brought back results for their dual-clutch automatic transmission) so you probably wouldn't be out of the woods there either.

abacomike

@jwilliams2‌

Why why should I cut them some slack?  What has Mercedes done for me?  I am a VIP customer to Mercedes Corporate - and your experience in Mercedes should tell you what that means in corporate Mercedes Lingo.  They have done nothing for me.  I had a low level customer service employee apologize for their error.  Not one corporate manager at zone or in Montvale has called me to see what they could do for me - NOT ONE CALL OR CONTACT BY LETTER - NOTHING!

So why should I cut them any slack????

imidazol97

ab348 said:

Here is an interesting story - is your dealer Audi of Mississauga?
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/468723-Brand-new-S4-Horror-Story-need-an-advice

That was an interesting story. I read to the end to find out how it ended up with Audi of Canada. Sounds like they make okay offers and gave different choices that were within reason.

imidazol97

ab348 said:

In my research for Driver, I found a bunch of references to problems with Audi automatics too even though I wasn't looking for them (I guess "clutch" in the search string brought back results for their dual-clutch automatic transmission) so you probably wouldn't be out of the woods there either.

I found more references to clutch problems with Jettas. I don't know how closely the clutch parts are related on those two versions of the platform, but might be more to glean from there on the net. I haven't looked at Rockauto or parts listings to see if the clutches are the same.

fezo

Yeah, when I had the engine melt on my Rabbit they were saying it was abused. I gave my brother the attorney all the maintenance records that showed meticulous maintenance done by their dealership and he sent them copies with a letter advising that the next letter would be a court notice and to call him..Amazingly in two days it was VW's fault and fixed for not a penny.

Small claims may do the trick but a lawyer's worth the money if need be.

Yeah, I know I'd be screwed with the same thing is a lease but I'd probably be willing to take a chance. The new GTI strikes me as mighty sweet. Of course by the time I'm doing anything that new Mazdaspeed 3 will be out....

ab348

Thing with a lease is that your lawyer can tell them you have stopped payment until there is redress, or they can take the vehicle back and forget about the whole thing. A bit more leverage than a purchase.

abacomike

ab348 said:

Thing with a lease is that your lawyer can tell them you have stopped payment until there is redress, or they can take the vehicle back and forget about the whole thing. A bit more leverage than a purchase.

I am not sure you are correct in your assumptions, ab348.  Here in the US, your lease agreement includes an understanding that the lessee is responsible for maintenance items - in this case the clutch which was adjudged to be wear and tear and not a warranty item.  Thus, if you withhold lease payments, it will adversely affect your credit.  The same would be true if you bought the car - you cannot, without negatively affecting your credit rating, withhold payments.

The fact that an attorney communicates the withholding of payments does not reverse the possible negative affects on credit.  If the manufacturer denies warranty repairs on a burned out clutch, it can go to arbitration - but proving your case could be a losing proposition.

In most cases, if not all cases, here in the US, when you buy a car or lease a car, the buyer signs an arbitration agreement that basically states the buyer agrees to an arbitration hearing and understands that the buyer cannot sue the seller - the arbiter determines the outcome.  If you disagree with the determination of the arbiter, you may appeal, but a lawsuit would take years to be heard in a court of law because of the arbitration agreement.

stever

Last I heard, Hyundai dropped mandatory binding arbitration. (NY Times). Nothing wrong with arbitration but it should be voluntary. That's one (minor) reason I passed on a Prius earlier this year. I lost my link showing what makes had mandatory binding arbitration - seems like BMW and MB were on the list along with Toyota.

What individual dealers do is another thing. At least you may have a little better shot at negotiating that away at the dealer level.

It's interesting to note that Congress passed a law forbidding the manufacturers from requiring mandatory binding arbitration when dealers have a dispute with the manufacturer. (autoissues.org). Guess it's okay for it to be voluntary for dealers but not for consumers.

abacomike

stever said:

Last I heard, Hyundai dropped mandatory binding arbitration. (NY Times). Nothing wrong with arbitration but it should be voluntary. That's one (minor) reason I passed on a Prius earlier this year. I lost my link showing what makes had mandatory binding arbitration - seems like BMW and MB were on the list along with Toyota. What individual dealers do is another thing. It's interesting to note that Congress passed a law forbidding the manufacturers from requiring mandatory binding arbitration when dealers have a dispute with the manufacturer. Guess it's okay for the dealers for it to be voluntary but not for consumers.

You are correct!  Dealers are very sensitive to the litigious nature of the typical citizen buying a car.  When a manufacturer is sued for liability regarding a defect in manufacture of an automobile or defective components utilized in building a car, the dealership is also sued in most cases.

It's a good defensive strategy to use (arbitration) which usually saves the defendent, in most cases, of outlandish court and legal costs.

jayrider

abacomike said:

@jwilliams2‌

Why why should I cut them some slack?  What has Mercedes done for me?  I am a VIP customer to Mercedes Corporate - and your experience in Mercedes should tell you what that means in corporate Mercedes Lingo.  They have done nothing for me.  I had a low level customer service employee apologize for their error.  Not one corporate manager at zone or in Montvale has called me to see what they could do for me - NOT ONE CALL OR CONTACT BY LETTER - NOTHING!

So why should I cut them any slack????

If you had been asked to come in for a sit down so they could ask what they could do to make you happy, you might feel differently. Since you have been cut loose, I don't blame you -- especially with your history with MB.

graphicguy

Have gone to arbitration twice. Once for my late Mother's Cadillac, the other for the Audi. Both were done by the BBB. Won the Cadillac arbitration hearing outright. Audi didn't get that far, but the case was filed.

This time, Cadillac didn't require me to sign an arbitration agreement. Never signed one for Acura, either.

stever

That's fine, so long as it's my choice whether to go to arbitration or sic a clone of Johnnie Cockran on 'em.

It's the mandatory part I object to. That could have kept all those SUA owners out of the class action against Toyota a while back for example, although some judges take a dim view of enforcing those clauses in some situations.

graphicguy

ab348 said:

Thing with a lease is that your lawyer can tell them you have stopped payment until there is redress, or they can take the vehicle back and forget about the whole thing. A bit more leverage than a purchase.

AB...have been tooling around in an ATS turbo all day while my dealer added some tint on my windows. It is a blast to drive. Good choice. When I test drove one last year, it was only around the block. Spending the day with one is really a great experience. It should be giving the 3 series, the A4 and C class fits.

abacomike

@jayrider‌

Exactly!  The dealer met with me and did their best to get me back into my car to solve the insurance problem (which Mercedes said they could not solve) and ordered a new car for priority 1 (sold order) in the first available slot for production (changed a car they had ordered for inventory to my specs), etc. 

But Mercedes has never called me or met with me or asked me what it would take for them to make me happy.  They just cut me loose after buying a brand new Mercedes every year, sometime two in a year, since 2007.

driver100

abacomike said:

@jayrider‌

Exactly!  The dealer met with me and did their best to get me back into my car to solve the insurance problem (which Mercedes said they could not solve) and ordered a new car for priority 1 (sold order) in the first available slot for production (changed a car they had ordered for inventory to my specs), etc. 

But Mercedes has never called me or met with me or asked me what it would take for them to make me happy.  They just cut me loose after buying a brand new Mercedes every year, sometime two in a year, since 2007.

Mike, one thing that is possible is that Mercedes doesn't really know you. The car was ordered for the dealer, and they are going to sell you the car if you want it. It seems possible, as far as Mercedes corporate is concerned, you don't really exist They may know you are out there waiting, but as far as all the records show...this car is being built for that particular dealership.

Any person in customer service at US HQs isn't going to care if you are satisfied. They just field complaints and try to clear them.

Just a possibility. I am getting very cynical in my old age.

abacomike

driver100 said:

@jayrider‌

Exactly!  The dealer met with me and did their best to get me back into my car to solve the insurance problem (which Mercedes said they could not solve) and ordered a new car for priority 1 (sold order) in the first available slot for production (changed a car they had ordered for inventory to my specs), etc. 

But Mercedes has never called me or met with me or asked me what it would take for them to make me happy.  They just cut me loose after buying a brand new Mercedes every year, sometime two in a year, since 2007.

Mike, one thing that is possible is that Mercedes doesn't really know you. The car was ordered for the dealer, and they are going to sell you the car if you want it. It seems possible, as far as Mercedes corporate is concerned, you don't really exist They may know you are out there waiting, but as far as all the records show...this car is being built for that particular dealership. Any person in customer service at US HQs isn't going to care if you are satisfied. They just field complaints and try to clear them. Just a possibility. I am getting very cynical in my old age.

Mercedes Zone Managers are very aware of who I am and the problem I uncovered with a 2015 E400 being produced and sold without STANDARD EQUIPMENT listed on the Monroney label.  Mercedes Corporate is well aware of the problem because the factory was made aware of the mal-produced vehicle in their plant in Germany and it was reported to the dealership that it was a computer glitch by Zone and Corporate.

Mercedes wants nothing to do with me because Mercedes is in violation of the Monroney Law passed by Congress and signed into US Law.  They refuse to admit to me, personally, that fact for fear they will be "outed" for violating the law.  Not only that, quality control in Germany and at the U.S. Port of entry did not catch this defect. Mercedes Corporate will never admit to that in order to avoid severe financial penalties.  Why do you think they have not contacted me?

ab348

graphicguy said:

AB...have been tooling around in an ATS turbo all day while my dealer added some tint on my windows. It is a blast to drive. Good choice. When I test drove one last year, it was only around the block. Spending the day with one is really a great experience. It should be giving the 3 series, the A4 and C class fits.

I have to be honest and say that when I first agreed to take it I had some buyers remorse of sorts, wondering if I had done the right thing, whether it was too small, etc. But a few weeks in, I absolutely love driving it. It is, as you say, a blast. Handles like it is on rails and has plenty of power, much more than the Regal. Also the reactions I am seeing are amazing to me, people are always commenting on it. I never expected that. I am actually looking for reasons to drive it. I think I made a pretty good choice.

Here are a couple of new pics I took earlier this week.

driver100

ab348 said:

graphicguy said:

AB...have been tooling around in an ATS turbo all day while my dealer added some tint on my windows. It is a blast to drive. Good choice. When I test drove one last year, it was only around the block. Spending the day with one is really a great experience. It should be giving the 3 series, the A4 and C class fits.

I have to be honest and say that when I first agreed to take it I had some buyers remorse of sorts, wondering if I had done the right thing, whether it was too small, etc. But a few weeks in, I absolutely love driving it. It is, as you say, a blast. Handles like it is on rails and has plenty of power, much more than the Regal. Also the reactions I am seeing are amazing to me, people are always commenting on it. I never expected that. I am actually looking for reasons to drive it. I think I made a pretty good choice.

Here are a couple of new pics I took earlier this week.

That to me is the ideal sized car...if you want the maximum fun you can get out of driving. Anything smaller is pretty cramped, anything larger loses it's zip.

The A4 is a lot more fun to drive than the E400 (when the tranny works), but, it doesn't have the smooth ride and extra comfort for a long trip. Ideally everyone should have one of each size.

btw....your Caddie looks beautiful. They did some nice design work on that model.