Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

venture

cdnpinhead said:

Please enlighten me regarding why nitrogen-filled tires have any advantage.

Some aircraft, usually military, fill the tires with nitrogen in the event of a tire explosion or blowout caused by some other situation (rejected takeoff, etc.) that could result in overheated brakes and tire blowouts. Nitrogen doesn't accelerate the fire. Atmospheric air, with its 21% oxygen, could.

Help me understand why any of this has anything to do with the gas that fills automobile tires. The atomic weight of oxygen is 16 and nitrogen is 14. It's not as if we're routinely filling the damn things with helium.

Looks to me like yet another ripoff upon the ignorant masses. Imagine.

Agreed, but remember - you get those nifty green valve caps.

qbrozen

oh, let's try to get an experience in here, huh?

Part 1:

Let's start with the Porsche dealer I visited on Saturday. Place was DEAD. Not another soul in sight. Was assigned a guru or specialist or concierge or whatever the hell they label their poor salespeople. I was there to see the Macan. Nope, ain't got none of those. He did, however, have a customer's car in service. He was very nice, the car was nice, I was very very interested. There is a 4-month lead time, however. He suggested I could "pre-trade" my mustang, they'd take it off my hands, and I'd still get the tax benefit when the Macan came in. Sounds great. Sure.

So he sent me an email to fill out at home with all pertinent information. I did that before Monday morning. He emailed back that they'd work on it. 2 days go by before I message him again asking how its coming along. He messages me back quickly, apologizing for the delay, and hits me with the number...a full $5k below its dealer auction value and $3500 below my target trade value. Hmmm... so I hit him back and explain I think they made a mistake because I happen to have access to Manheim data and their offer is in line with a 2011, not a 2013. The lines of communication fell silent again. This was now last night (Tuesday night).

I figured this is not going well, so I started surfing the net and considering other options out there. I make plans in my head to go check out some CPO options like the XF, 550xi, E550, and throw a leftover new 2014 CTS in the mix.

stever

Some of y'all may enjoy this classic post from Tidester on nitrogen (and another a few posts on down). The last post in the discussion from @capriracer‌ is interesting too.

qbrozen

Part 2:

Head out to the Jag dealer first. Drove an XF. Smooth ride but ultimately not for me. While I'm there, I'm getting all kinds of emails because I emailed myself links to cars on dealers websites the night before. In there is a reply from the Porsche salesman. He has managed to up the trade-in offer $1500 and tells me that is the highest they would go AND that the number I mentioned from Manheim is the retail price. Really?! Look, when a customer pulls out information that only a person in the car business is supposed to have, you might want to consider you aren't dealing with an uninformed laydown. So, while sitting there at the Jag dealer, I pull manheim up on my phone, plug the car in, take a snapshot, and email him back one last time... just to be a prick, I guess. It clearly shows average auction price and average retail price. Explain to him that he's wrong, but thank him for his time, take care.

I finish up with the Jag saleslady and set out for the Caddy dealer around the corner. Its now 11am. They have the car, I drive the car, I like the car. OK, let's see if we can work this out. A take a bit of a different route than usual because I don't want to waste time and tell him up front that I priced it on truecar.com and I have access to manheim, so I'm armed with the numbers. My goal is $22k for my car and $49k for theirs. The truecar.com number was a little bit sketchy only because it was a single dealer they were showing $48,4xx for, while the other 2 dealers were showing ~$49,8xx.

So, my warning didn't work. After a very long wait, he came back at $20k and $50,4xx on theirs. We're $4k apart. Even though I told him ahead of time I had these numbers, I now pulled them out for him to see. Here is the Manheim data for my car and here is the truecar pricing on yours. He leaves again. More waiting.

He comes back with "well... we might be able to give you another $1k on your car, but we're at the bottom on ours." He tries to give me this line that the Chrysler dealer tried on me when buying my wife's van: "truecar is not taking the options into account." Alright, let me show you how this works, although you really should know as a car salesman... and I walk him through the app and show how you add the options and it increases the price. And I, once again, point to Manheim and how my asking price on my car is already below auction value so, although they will just send it over to their Ford store and retail it, I am giving leeway in case they want to send it to auction instead. I'm being very very reasonable. He also tells me they have $1500 advertising fee charged on the car. I can kind of maybe buy into that only because of that little caveat with the truecar pricing I mentioned above that seemed to show a near $1500 gap between the lowest priced dealer and the rest. Another wait.

qbrozen

Part 3

Now he comes back with $21,360 on mine and $49,8xx on theirs. The sales guy is visibly and audibly tired now. He wants to be done with and get on with his new year's eve. Now, unfortunately, I goofed a bit here. I was looking at the wrong number on the overcomplicated sheet and THOUGHT he showed me $21,360 and $49,089. So I said "OK." He was relieved. First thing he did was call my insurance company to make the switch. As he's on the phone, I'm looking at the OTD and getting concerned this isn't adding up. So I study the sheet and find the other, higher purchase price. Uh-oh. He gets off the phone and I apologize and explain my mixup (I don't feel completely responsible since the sheet is too damned complicated for negotiating, which i'm sure they do on purpose). I tell him I need that $49,8xx to be $49k even and we're done. He was not happy, but kept his cool for the most part. His agitation was subtle. This time he's gone for all of about 2 mins and comes back with a new sheet that read $21,360 and $49,000. Done deal. I'm usually not that patient. THANKFULLY I did not have the wife with me or she would have made me walk out in the first 30 mins.

Now its 2pm. Guess who I get a new email from? Yup, the Porsche salesman: "great news! I was able to get $21,500 for you car!"
Sigh.
I wrote back "I appreciate your effort, but I took your last email as the final word and I just signed on another vehicle." His own damned fault for saying "this is the highest we can go" when he obviously didn't mean it. Dumbass.

Its all good. I got a faster vehicle and spent $13k less.

stickguy

worth the time investment. Though easier to go old school. make the offer 1 time, and walk. And having a senior moment, in that I can't remember who that is named after!

that is a nice caddy dealer. That is the one close to my house. I had an enjoyable visit, but don't recall the name of the guy I dealt with.

and nice that the Porsche guy upped the trade on your Mustang. Kind of pointless, since they didn't have a Macan in stock to sell you anyway!

mako1a

Q, you took $21,360 for a 13 GT? Did I hear you right? Were you over 99k miles or something? I'm still quite happy with mine so not checking values, but that sounds awfully low for a great car.

nyccarguy

@mako1a‌

His 2013 GT was a base model GT with no options. He bought it right with a decent amount of rebates.

qbrozen

yup. Only paid $25,600 for my GT new. $4k depreciation in nearly 2 years from new ain't bad at all.

Since the dealer is an hour away from me and it was the only non-premium V sport within 150 miles, I didn't have the urge to attempt the "they'll be calling me back" routine.

oldfarmer50

nyccarguy said:

@mako1a‌

His 2013 GT was a base model GT with no options. He bought it right with a decent amount of rebates.

Holy moley, a low option base GT is what I'm mulling and that lists for about $34k. I remember that Q got a killer deal on his but that's a lot of depreciation after 2 years.

EDIT: just read down. $25k? Did you negotiate with a gun?

cdnpinhead

qbrozen said:

It is not so much that its nitrogen as that the lower volume of moisture-containing oxygen reduces pressure changes due to heat.

Aha, now that makes sense. The process of refining nitrogen from air also eliminates nearly all of the water vapor as well, hence the term dry nitrogen. If the nitrogen had water vapour to the same extent atmospheric air does, it then would be totally useless. Conversely, if anyone ever went to the trouble of refining air to eliminate water vapour down to a dew point of -70 deg F or so it'd probably work as well as the nitrogen.

driver100

qbrozen said:

Part 3

Now he comes back with $21,360 on mine and $49,8xx on theirs. The sales guy is visibly and audibly tired now. He wants to be done with and get on with his new year's eve. Now, unfortunately, I goofed a bit here. I was looking at the wrong number on the overcomplicated sheet and THOUGHT he showed me $21,360 and $49,089. So I said "OK." He was relieved. First thing he did was call my insurance company to make the switch. As he's on the phone, I'm looking at the OTD and getting concerned this isn't adding up. So I study the sheet and find the other, higher purchase price. Uh-oh. He gets off the phone and I apologize and explain my mixup (I don't feel completely responsible since the sheet is too damned complicated for negotiating, which i'm sure they do on purpose). I tell him I need that $49,8xx to be $49k even and we're done. He was not happy, but kept his cool for the most part. His agitation was subtle. This time he's gone for all of about 2 mins and comes back with a new sheet that read $21,360 and $49,000. Done deal. I'm usually not that patient. THANKFULLY I did not have the wife with me or she would have made me walk out in the first 30 mins.

Now its 2pm. Guess who I get a new email from? Yup, the Porsche salesman: "great news! I was able to get $21,500 for you car!"
Sigh.
I wrote back "I appreciate your effort, but I took your last email as the final word and I just signed on another vehicle." His own damned fault for saying "this is the highest we can go" when he obviously didn't mean it. Dumbass.

Its all good. I got a faster vehicle and spent $13k less.

Good story, especially for New Years. You really worked to get the price you wanted, but you earned it.

Congratulations with the new car. Tell us more about it...model, options, colors, etc.

driver100

abacomike said:

I have no intention of telling him about the $2000 in dealer incentives that were available - why disappoint the guy.  He knows I buy lots of cars from a dealer in Palm Beach County (18 miles away) - why not ask me to help him get a great deal?  Most unfortunate.  But the car is quite good looking and he'll keep this one until he stops driving - the Lincoln he was driving was 16 years old.

Good for you not telling him he could have paid less. You da man when it comes to Mercedes - he should have checked with you first. People are usually glad to help, and he had nothing to lose and lots to gain by seeing you before buying the car.

An E350 compared to a 16 year old Lincoln is going to be a shock to his system...he is going to love his new E.

stever

stickguy said:

Though easier to go old school. make the offer 1 time, and walk. And having a senior moment, in that I can't remember who that is named after!

Bobst?

ab348

oldfarmer50 said:

nyccarguy said:

@mako1a‌

His 2013 GT was a base model GT with no options. He bought it right with a decent amount of rebates.

Holy moley, a low option base GT is what I'm mulling and that lists for about $34k. I remember that Q got a killer deal on his but that's a lot of depreciation after 2 years.

EDIT: just read down. $25k? Did you negotiate with a gun?

This is what troubles me about Mustangs. Certainly on the previous model if you picked the right time, there were some ridiculous deals to be had on them. Right now the new model is hot so people are paying near full MSRP for them. But when I see a nicely-equipped GT up here showing nearly a $45K sticker, I have to think that if one were to wait a while, that first number might change from a 4 to a 3.

ab348

stever said:

Some of y'all may enjoy this classic post from Tidester on nitrogen (and another a few posts on down). The last post in the discussion from @capriracer‌ is interesting too.

Tidester - there's a name from long ago. He disappeared years ago.

stever

We've lost a few friends around here over the years. Tom/Tidester passed away just over four years ago now. Pat also in 2010.... Often wonder about other old friends who quit posting for whatever reason. Auld Lang Syne.

fezo

Agreed. Nice work, Mike.

I think the nitrogen in the tires on most cars is just marketing. Now Costco will check my tires and fill them with mostly nitrogen any old time I want. Otherwise I use my special blend of 70% nitrogen, the oxygen and Co2 and various rare gases.

imidazol97

abacomike said:

The tire pressures increase about 2-3 pounds per tire on the turnpike at 65 mph, so they do not increase as much as they would if only air was used.  Remember, 70% of our air is already nitrogen.  It becomes very difficult to get above 90% nitrogen unless you perform inflation in a 100% nitrogen environment which is almost impossible at a tire dealer or car dealership.  But the reduced levels of oxygen do prolong the life of a tire by reducing the levels of oxygen inside the tire.

The atmosphere is nearly 80% nitrogen. The expansion coefficients as a function of temperature are the same. The nitrogen sellers have tried all kinds of advantages for their advertising as each one has been disproven. Latest is that when you have a bad fiery crash the oxygen from the tires exploding after they have melted will increase the intensity of the fire. By that time, you'd be a crispy critter most likely and it won't matter.

If the nitrogen provided at your local Joe's Tire Store or the local BMW dealer were perfectly efficient and providing 100% N2 it might make a difference in nothing for an auto tire. The insides are rubber designed with exposure to oxygen in mind as are the exteriors.

As someone already pointed out, the only slight variable is the moisture in the air. Unless your tire store uses a pressure tank and puts the tire and rim inside it to get 100% N2 from a hospital quality tank rather than their "concentrator" machine they bought from an ad that they could make more profit than even selling pinstriping and vinyl roofs and ScotchGarding carpets and seats, then you're not getting pure N2. If your Mercedes dealer and Chevy dealer are using a drier on their pressure tank for their air compressor, the moisture is being reduced in the air going into the tire.

The behavior of water vapor is different and it doesn't follow the Gas Law. If I'm racing my E400 at 120 on the way to FL in a hurry, then the expansion might give a higher pressure. However, homeostatis means that the higher pressure reduces flexing and that reduces the temperature of the tire and therefore reduces the pressure to reach a balance.

So then the tire stores started point to the corrosion on the bead/rim contact as a reason to use N2 from their "concentrator." However, the air outside the tire has moisture that also affects the bead/rim contact and can lead to corrosion that needs to be tended as new tires are put on.

The N2 idea came from truck tires which go hundreds of thousands of miles with retreading. They aren't built the same as Michelins on my cars most other quality auto tires and the interior rubber on truck carcasses could benefit from less oxygen exposure over that life. However, IMHO the improved life, if any, came from improvements in the drying techniques on the N2 equipment over the driers used on the standard air compressors which tend to be older.

imidazol97

Happy New Year to everyone.

jayrider

qbrozen said:

Part 3

Now he comes back with $21,360 on mine and $49,8xx on theirs. The sales guy is visibly and audibly tired now. He wants to be done with and get on with his new year's eve. Now, unfortunately, I goofed a bit here. I was looking at the wrong number on the overcomplicated sheet and THOUGHT he showed me $21,360 and $49,089. So I said "OK." He was relieved. First thing he did was call my insurance company to make the switch. As he's on the phone, I'm looking at the OTD and getting concerned this isn't adding up. So I study the sheet and find the other, higher purchase price. Uh-oh. He gets off the phone and I apologize and explain my mixup (I don't feel completely responsible since the sheet is too damned complicated for negotiating, which i'm sure they do on purpose). I tell him I need that $49,8xx to be $49k even and we're done. He was not happy, but kept his cool for the most part. His agitation was subtle. This time he's gone for all of about 2 mins and comes back with a new sheet that read $21,360 and $49,000. Done deal. I'm usually not that patient. THANKFULLY I did not have the wife with me or she would have made me walk out in the first 30 mins.

Now its 2pm. Guess who I get a new email from? Yup, the Porsche salesman: "great news! I was able to get $21,500 for you car!"
Sigh.
I wrote back "I appreciate your effort, but I took your last email as the final word and I just signed on another vehicle." His own damned fault for saying "this is the highest we can go" when he obviously didn't mean it. Dumbass.

Its all good. I got a faster vehicle and spent $13k less.

A New Years Eve car buy that sets the standard for us all. Congrats and thanks for the share.

js06gv

ab348 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

nyccarguy said:

@mako1a‌

His 2013 GT was a base model GT with no options. He bought it right with a decent amount of rebates.

Holy moley, a low option base GT is what I'm mulling and that lists for about $34k. I remember that Q got a killer deal on his but that's a lot of depreciation after 2 years.

EDIT: just read down. $25k? Did you negotiate with a gun?

This is what troubles me about Mustangs. Certainly on the previous model if you picked the right time, there were some ridiculous deals to be had on them. Right now the new model is hot so people are paying near full MSRP for them. But when I see a nicely-equipped GT up here showing nearly a $45K sticker, I have to think that if one were to wait a while, that first number might change from a 4 to a 3.

The '15 Mustang I bought last week didn't list for quite that much, but I did get $4,226 off a sticker of $42,590, inclusive of $1,500 in rebates. I agree many if not most dealers are still at or near MSRP on these cars (the 1964 50th anniv cars are going for a cool 20 grand over list even at my dealer), but there are deals to be had if one is persistent. Probably didn't hurt that this is the fourth vehicle I purchased from the same salesman in 4 years.

stickguy

Bobst. Of course. How could I forget his name.

the $100 bump special.

graphicguy

Q....great deal on a great car! Good job. Be anxious to hear about your experiences with the CTS and the dealer.

driver100

js06gv said:

ab348 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

nyccarguy said:

@mako1a‌

His 2013 GT was a base model GT with no options. He bought it right with a decent amount of rebates.

Holy moley, a low option base GT is what I'm mulling and that lists for about $34k. I remember that Q got a killer deal on his but that's a lot of depreciation after 2 years.

EDIT: just read down. $25k? Did you negotiate with a gun?

This is what troubles me about Mustangs. Certainly on the previous model if you picked the right time, there were some ridiculous deals to be had on them. Right now the new model is hot so people are paying near full MSRP for them. But when I see a nicely-equipped GT up here showing nearly a $45K sticker, I have to think that if one were to wait a while, that first number might change from a 4 to a 3.

The '15 Mustang I bought last week didn't list for quite that much, but I did get $4,226 off a sticker of $42,590, inclusive of $1,500 in rebates. I agree many if not most dealers are still at or near MSRP on these cars (the 1964 50th anniv cars are going for a cool 20 grand over list even at my dealer), but there are deals to be had if one is persistent. Probably didn't hurt that this is the fourth vehicle I purchased from the same salesman in 4 years.

Are you a member of CCBA? 4 vehicles in 4 years....you may be ahead of Mike.

Tell us how that came to be, I mean 4 cars in 4 years.

driver100

Just an update on my IT friend and his search for a Honda Fit. He has gone to several dealers and the price is pretty constant.....it seems Honda has found a good formula for selling cars. You can work out the price online, dealers automatically take off $500, they are up front about rebates, and so they all sell at one price. This works well for Honda, no bad feelings when some people are better or more knowledgeable negotiators. It maintains the price too.

The only negotiating seemed to be throw in mats or some oil changes...nothing worth going from dealer to dealer over.

The price would have been $306 a month but he found that included security etching so without that it will be $295 a mont, and like he said that is almost $500 over the lease term.

I looked up reviews for the 2015 Fit and they are all outstanding....most are 5 out of 5.

He said he will probably buy it on Saturday.

imidazol97

qbrozen said:

This time he's gone for all of about 2 mins and comes back with a new sheet that read $21,360 and $49,000. Done deal. I'm usually not that patient. THANKFULLY I did not have the wife with me or she would have made me walk out in the first 30 mins.

Congratulations on your new CTS.

All these Cadillacs being purchased are making me think I need to go back by and drive an ATS.

js06gv

driver100 said:

js06gv said:

ab348 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

nyccarguy said:

@mako1a‌

His 2013 GT was a base model GT with no options. He bought it right with a decent amount of rebates.

Holy moley, a low option base GT is what I'm mulling and that lists for about $34k. I remember that Q got a killer deal on his but that's a lot of depreciation after 2 years.

EDIT: just read down. $25k? Did you negotiate with a gun?

This is what troubles me about Mustangs. Certainly on the previous model if you picked the right time, there were some ridiculous deals to be had on them. Right now the new model is hot so people are paying near full MSRP for them. But when I see a nicely-equipped GT up here showing nearly a $45K sticker, I have to think that if one were to wait a while, that first number might change from a 4 to a 3.

The '15 Mustang I bought last week didn't list for quite that much, but I did get $4,226 off a sticker of $42,590, inclusive of $1,500 in rebates. I agree many if not most dealers are still at or near MSRP on these cars (the 1964 50th anniv cars are going for a cool 20 grand over list even at my dealer), but there are deals to be had if one is persistent. Probably didn't hurt that this is the fourth vehicle I purchased from the same salesman in 4 years.

Are you a member of CCBA? 4 vehicles in 4 years....you may be ahead of Mike.

Tell us how that came to be, I mean 4 cars in 4 years.

LOL, yes I'm on CCBA too. Not as crazy as it sounds and Mike is still way ahead of me!

12/10 Mustang GT (additional car)
4/12 F-150 (got the deal for my dad)
3/13 F-150 (replaced my Avalanche)
12/14 Mustang GT (replaced the '11)

Those are the four from the same salesman. My daughters Optima lease is also mixed in to this timeframe, but obviously not from the Ford dealer.

bwia

imidazol97 said:

This...

Congratulations on your new CTS. All these Cadillacs being purchased are making me think I need to go back by and drive an ATS.

Imid, I too am encouraged by the number of Cadillac purchases reported here. But rather than buy a Caddy I will buy a few shares of GM stock instead.  The value proposition is with the LaCrosse; equally pleasing esthetics but $20k cheaper. 

isellhondas

I used to dabble a bit in some of the Prices Paid Forums but reading those was bad for my blood pressure. Even now, when I miss the car business, spending five minutes in one of those forums makes me smile. So many people scared to death they might pay five dollars more than someone else. It pains me to see what people will put themselves through for a lousy buck.

Then there are the self proclaimed "experts" that take on the role of knowing everything.

But the ones that amuse me the most are the ones who AFTER buying their new car come and ask "Did I get a good deal?"

Usually someone will come along and rain on their parade.

Then there are some who "get confused" about what they paid and state some impossible number that the others will frantically try to beat.

Mike did the right thing!

oldfarmer50

js06gv said:

ab348 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

nyccarguy said:

@mako1a‌

His 2013 GT was a base model GT with no options. He bought it right with a decent amount of rebates.

Holy moley, a low option base GT is what I'm mulling and that lists for about $34k. I remember that Q got a killer deal on his but that's a lot of depreciation after 2 years.

EDIT: just read down. $25k? Did you negotiate with a gun?

This is what troubles me about Mustangs. Certainly on the previous model if you picked the right time, there were some ridiculous deals to be had on them. Right now the new model is hot so people are paying near full MSRP for them. But when I see a nicely-equipped GT up here showing nearly a $45K sticker, I have to think that if one were to wait a while, that first number might change from a 4 to a 3.

The '15 Mustang I bought last week didn't list for quite that much, but I did get $4,226 off a sticker of $42,590, inclusive of $1,500 in rebates. I agree many if not most dealers are still at or near MSRP on these cars (the 1964 50th anniv cars are going for a cool 20 grand over list even at my dealer), but there are deals to be had if one is persistent. Probably didn't hurt that this is the fourth vehicle I purchased from the same salesman in 4 years.

$1500 in rebates? Edmunds only shows $500 in my area on a GT. How hard was it grinding the other $2700 off the sticker? That's pretty impressive.

js06gv

oldfarmer50 said:

js06gv said:

ab348 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

nyccarguy said:

@mako1a‌

His 2013 GT was a base model GT with no options. He bought it right with a decent amount of rebates.

Holy moley, a low option base GT is what I'm mulling and that lists for about $34k. I remember that Q got a killer deal on his but that's a lot of depreciation after 2 years.

EDIT: just read down. $25k? Did you negotiate with a gun?

This is what troubles me about Mustangs. Certainly on the previous model if you picked the right time, there were some ridiculous deals to be had on them. Right now the new model is hot so people are paying near full MSRP for them. But when I see a nicely-equipped GT up here showing nearly a $45K sticker, I have to think that if one were to wait a while, that first number might change from a 4 to a 3.

The '15 Mustang I bought last week didn't list for quite that much, but I did get $4,226 off a sticker of $42,590, inclusive of $1,500 in rebates. I agree many if not most dealers are still at or near MSRP on these cars (the 1964 50th anniv cars are going for a cool 20 grand over list even at my dealer), but there are deals to be had if one is persistent. Probably didn't hurt that this is the fourth vehicle I purchased from the same salesman in 4 years.

$1500 in rebates? Edmunds only shows $500 in my area on a GT. How hard was it grinding the other $2700 off the sticker? That's pretty impressive.
</blockquote

You are correct Oldfarmer. I may have only covered the details over in CCBA. I got the extra $1,000 off via a conquest rebate for having a competitive lease in the household. No grinding on the other side. That was their opening offer, and given what I've been seeing at other dealers I thought it was fair and not worth any more clubbing over the head. Now, they referred to the deal as "invoice" when Edmunds showed one about $700 lower but with an asterisk for advertising fees that were not reflected. I highly doubt advertising accounted for the whole difference (I'm sure those here who used to be in the business can Better educate me on that aspect), but again I felt good about the deal and I do realize they have to make some profit.

Sandman6472

What ever happened to that guy from near Pittsburgh who was very handy around the house who had the bad engine in his Hyundai Genesis who had just bought his spouse the Subaru? He hasn't posted in months and I remember his brother down here in Delray Beach passed awhile ago at a somewhat youngish age? Think his screen name began with an "M" or "Jmonroe"? Anyone know who I'm talking about??? Just curious since he used to post here frquently and was a very smart guy.

The Sandman

abacomike

sandman_6472 said:

What ever happened to that guy from near Pittsburgh who was very handy around the house who had the bad engine in his Hyundai Genesis who had just bought his spouse the Subaru? He hasn't posted in months and I remember his brother down here in Delray Beach passed awhile ago at a somewhat youngish age? Think his screen name began with an "M" or "Jmonroe"? Anyone know who I'm talking about??? Just curious since he used to post here frquently and was a very smart guy. The Sandman

I haven't seen a post from jmonroe in almost a year, maybe more.  Yes, his brother lived in Delray Beach.

stickguy

I think JM popped in a little while back to say Hi.

The Genesis was OK. It was his XG350 that had the engine go.

He's probably out in the workshop making his wife her long-awaited new dining room set.

imidazol97

Jmonroe was last signed in during May.

stickguy

time flies. Hopefully all is well, and he just pulled a Richard and got too busy for us.

roadburner

I know he went over and sparred with the delusional egotist wrench in "Tales from Under the Hood"- that would put most anybody off their feed...

abacomike

qbrozen said:

Part 3 Now he comes back with $21,360 on mine and $49,8xx on theirs. The sales guy is visibly and audibly tired now. He wants to be done with and get on with his new year's eve. Now, unfortunately, I goofed a bit here. I was looking at the wrong number on the overcomplicated sheet and THOUGHT he showed me $21,360 and $49,089. So I said "OK." He was relieved. First thing he did was call my insurance company to make the switch. As he's on the phone, I'm looking at the OTD and getting concerned this isn't adding up. So I study the sheet and find the other, higher purchase price. Uh-oh. He gets off the phone and I apologize and explain my mixup (I don't feel completely responsible since the sheet is too damned complicated for negotiating, which i'm sure they do on purpose). I tell him I need that $49,8xx to be $49k even and we're done. He was not happy, but kept his cool for the most part. His agitation was subtle. This time he's gone for all of about 2 mins and comes back with a new sheet that read $21,360 and $49,000. Done deal. I'm usually not that patient. THANKFULLY I did not have the wife with me or she would have made me walk out in the first 30 mins. Now its 2pm. Guess who I get a new email from? Yup, the Porsche salesman: "great news! I was able to get $21,500 for you car!" Sigh. I wrote back "I appreciate your effort, but I took your last email as the final word and I just signed on another vehicle." His own damned fault for saying "this is the highest we can go" when he obviously didn't mean it. Dumbass. Its all good. I got a faster vehicle and spent $13k less.

Outstanding, qbrozen!  The "play-by-play" of how your buying experience went brings back many memories of not only my buying experiences, but also my selling experiences as well.  Your recitation seemed like the first three chapters in a DIY book on how to buy cars.

Going into the dealership with the correct "ammunition" to ensure a successful outcome is so picturesque of how a car purchase should be handled by the buyer. You showed the patience needed to win the game by not getting upset with the salesman as he maneuvered between you and his manager.  You were aware that the salesman was just doing what he was told to do my his "handler", his manager.

Too often buyers are just too impatient with the process - the game if you wish - and can, at times, walk away from what could have been a big win in terms of car buying.  But you stayed in there and got exactly what you wanted in terms of a deal.

No matter how many times we espouse the correct way to buy a car, invariably car buyers think they know how to buy a car better than those of us who have won at the game of buying cars for 20-30 years.

One final thought - when in the "heat" of the car buying game, buyers often let their guard down and allow the salesman and the dealer management to, through thoughtful and well-practiced manipulation, to outsmart the buyer.  You had your ammunition as your defense maneuvers to catch them at their own dirty game.

Well done Q!

stickguy

oh, I remember that thread. You got real testy in there.

qbrozen

Good story, especially for New Years. You really worked to get the price you wanted, but you earned it. Congratulations with the new car. Tell us more about it...model, options, colors, etc.

Sorry, did I leave that out? Ha. It was over on the other board, so I get a bit mixed up. This is a 2014 caddy CTS V-sport in metallic red (extra charge), wheel locks, all weather mats, and all weather trunk mat. Normally, thats all garbage I would never get at the time of purchase, but these things were actually on the window sticker. MSRP was $61,385.

stickguy

oh, you got the new design V sport? I thought it was the real V with the 556 V8 rolling on the old design.

driver100

Sorry, did I leave that out? Ha. It was over on the other board, so I get a bit mixed up. This is a 2014 caddy CTS V-sport in metallic red (extra charge), wheel locks, all weather mats, and all weather trunk mat. Normally, thats all garbage I would never get at the time of purchase, but these things were actually on the window sticker. MSRP was $61,385.

Sounds nice, and a great deal:

roadburner

stickguy said:

oh, I remember that thread. You got real testy in there.

You bet I did; the guy would simply refuse to admit that incompetent and/or dishonest mechanics existed- and anyone who thought otherwise was a liar...

imidazol97

roadburner said:

stickguy said:

oh, I remember that thread. You got real testy in there.

You bet I did; the guy would simply refuse to admit that incompetent and/or dishonest mechanics existed- and anyone who thought otherwise was a liar...

There were a few posts recently in that thread again from Mr. Mechanic. But I think it laid down and died again.

Sandman6472

Sounds like a fun forum, not! Prefer to be where everyone is civil and able to enjoy the automobile like the rest of us do. I know for me it's my one real passion in life, and has been since I was old enough to know what a car was. The fall was always the best time of year since the new models came out and then, they changed every year and none of this 6 or 7 year cycle for a brand new model. Styles changed yearly and there was a natural progression, if you will, from year to year...a;ways very exciting for a young kid like myself. Luckily, we got a new vehicle for my mom every other year while my dad went on a 4 to 5 year cycle, usually. And back then, Cadillacs and Lincolns were usually her vehicle of choice, rented to the family business, since we had a large family. We did have a '57 Chrysler wagon as my one grandpa owned a dealership at the time but once he sold it, they moved up in class I guess.
Those were the greatest years in the automotive world as far as I'm concerned and every year was better than the last! I think I got my love for the automobile from that grandparent though none of my siblings were as focused on them as I was.

The Sandman

driver100

sandman_6472 said:

The fall was always the best time of year since the new models came out and then, they changed every year and none of this 6 or 7 year cycle for a brand new model. Styles changed yearly and there was a natural progression
Those were the greatest years in the automotive world as far as I'm concerned and every year was better than the last! I think I got my love for the automobile from that grandparent though none of my siblings were as focused on them as I was.

The Sandman

That brings back some nice memories. My father bought one of the first Morris's brought into Canada. A 1950 and then a 1952 Morris Oxford. Then he was a salesman and bought a 54 Ford and then bought new Fords or Mercurys every year or every two years. It was exciting going to the dealers when the new cars came out.....they made big changes every year.

The excitement of those cars just can't be duplicated, even though today's cars are so much better.

qbrozen

stickguy said:

oh, you got the new design V sport? I thought it was the real V with the 556 V8 rolling on the old design.

Nah. Nicer car and a bit tamer. Heck, it may even handle better with the smaller engine in the nose. That would be an interesting comparison. 420hp seems to be plenty in this car. How often do you need to get to 60mph faster than 4 and a half secs anyway?

found this comparison, although it lacks any objective tests

stickguy

Given the limits of traction, they are probably about the same real world. Edmunds says a V8 V is about 4.3 so even if your is 4.6, I think you can keep up with traffic.

556 is getting into crazy territory.

stickguy

after reading that, I agree that the V Sport is the way to go. If I had to pick just on this comparison, definitely the way I would be going.