Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

dino001

imidazol97 said:

dino001 said:

In that segment it's always better to hold the price and add content than to simply slash the sticker. Once the news is out, the consumer will be asking for more reductions, rightfully so. Doesn't sell, you want to unload it, gimmie a discount I can brag about...

You analysis on price movements fits well with something I read elsewhere a few days ago. They suggested holding the base price but discounting the packages that are popular to give a competitive pricing on the units that are
loaded up with the typical options groups. That's the same as adding content for the same price that you suggest.

They could do even more - add some content to the packages, add "free maintenance", add leather (or something popular like that) into the base, reshuffle the content a little so it's not clearly visible that the price was slashed. Essentially act quickly with model 2015.5 that looks similar, but is cheaper overall.

roadburner

In short, Cadillac's problem is that perception has not caught up with reality. I still think it is wrong-headed to keep prices relatively high while the buyers in that segment still aren't convinced the cars are as good as they actually are.

dino001

And for God's sake - they should ditch that awful "Escalade for slave owners" commercial. As long as they run it, I don't care how good the cars are.

dino001

roadburner said:

In short, Cadillac's problem is that perception has not caught up with reality. I still think it is wrong-headed to keep prices relatively high while the buyers in that segment still aren't convinced the cars are as good as they actually are.

This is not new - that's actually a sign that the old GM has not died. As long as there are execs with no sense of reality (market reality), they will run into walls frequently. First thing they need is humility, especially behind the close doors.

imidazol97

How does the price structure of the CTS look with the DT6 coming as a premium rear wheel drive vehicle
coming "soon"?

dino001

I just went to their site. First example - CTS VSport and VSport Premium. Difference: full leather seats vs. surfaces, "ultraview" sunroof and driver assist package, whatever those are. 10 grand difference. This is insane.

28firefighter

My wife and her sister are both Ohio State alums, and have many OSU alums in their extended family. I spent 2.5 years commuting every weekend back and forth to Columbus from Pittsburgh when we were dating in college, so I like to consider myself a Buckeye by association.

imidazol97

28firefighter said:

My wife and her sister are both Ohio State alums, and have many OSU alums in their extended family. I spent 2.5 years commuting every weekend back and forth to Columbus from Pittsburgh when we were dating in college, so I like to consider myself a Buckeye by association.

Welcome to the club!

That's a heck of a commute. I've driven from Western Ohio to Gettysburg and beyond a few times. I know the part of I-70 from Columbus to where it meets I76 near Pittsburg well enough.

graphicguy

qbrozen said:

bwia said:

U.S. Sales Cadillac ATS & CTS combined
2012....... 7,008 + 46,979 = 53,987
2013..... 38,319 + 32,343 = 70,762
2014..... 29,890 + 31,115 = 61,005
________________
Source: http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/cadillac-cts-sales-figures.html

well, wait a sec now. That looks much much better. Big upswing with the ATS, then a small downtick after getting all initial ATS buyers out of the way. Sales typically trend down as a model ages. HOWEVER, I would also point out that it is too early to call it quits on the 2014 models. They are still being sold. So, while that number may not go up much, I think it tells a very different story than you were originally portraying.

CTS coupe production has been severely curtailed. They are still selling the previous gen coupe, too. See what the numbers look like when the new CTS coupe comes out and in full production.

Drive an ATS or CTS....compare them to a 3, 5 or A4, A6, or C, E. I believe the Caddys are the fun, luxury drivers of the group (which is where the BMWs and Mercedes used to reside).

I as the biggest Caddy hater around. Never thought I'd be drving another one. Now, I own one...and enjoy every minute driving it.

BTW...that Buick is GAHOERGEEUUUS!

fezo

dino001 said:

And for God's sake - they should ditch that awful "Escalade for slave owners" commercial. As long as they run it, I don't care how good the cars are.

I don't think you have to worry about how the cars are. They are in a strange place. The luxury hood car.

oldfarmer50

driver100 said:

We have the largest Ford dealer in Florida nearby and sometimes their ads do make me wonder what the catch is. They have a 2015 Ford Taurus for $19995, regular $27615. That seems to be a lot of car for the money. Some of these Turus's get up into the $42k range!







The ad states this which I found curious:

This vehicle is available for sale only for titling and registering in the state of Florida. This Vehicle is not available for export, or for sale to be titled in other states and countries.

Also, in the newspaper they say their is a dealer fee of $595 and electronic filing charge of $108.

My guess is that the small print says "with $5000 cash or trade".

oldfarmer50

imidazol97 said:

How about a new Buick, based on a concept car? Suggestions being made to call it "Riviera."
How does this fit into Buick's lineup to change the target demographic?



Or how about a coupe?



And a sedan?

I'll take the first two. I liked the old nameplate too.

graphicguy

dino001 said:

I just went to their site. First example - CTS VSport and VSport Premium. Difference: full leather seats vs. surfaces, "ultraview" sunroof and driver assist package, whatever those are. 10 grand difference. This is insane.

dino....clearly, you aren't Cadillac's target. No problem. I am a BMW fan, too. But, am more interested in the upcoming CT6, maybe the CTS-V.

There's a $4,500+ delta between the base 528i and CTS base, in favor of the CTS. You look at the CTS, drive the CTS and start comparing, it won't take long for some to make a change.

sb55

bwia said:

Nice discussion about the Cadillac brand. I hope GM is reading this thread. Anyway, here are my two cents on the subject.

The prescription for reversing the CTS' deteriorating sales trend is to cut prices by at least 25% as well as make overtures to their traditional buyers (i.e. people over 60 with lots of money.) To ignore your prime demographic in pursuit of a few performance oriented buyers is not a good recipe for the brand.

I may be wrong but in Economics 101 they preach that high prices and sales volume go in opposite directions. Lamborghini is a prime example of that of that strategy. It builds high performance and high price cars but the company is yet to turn a profit in years. Lesson learned.

The sales figures for the last five years tell a dismal story
2010..... 45,656
2011….. 55,042
2012….. 46,979
2013….. 32,343
2014….. 31,115

I heard the Cadillac head being interviewed from the Detroit Auto Show on Bloomberg Radio. He said the Caddy turnaround in the USA is projected at 10 more years, but that China sales are great and make up for lackluster US sales.

karhill1

Yes, the deposit ploy is quite amusing and really quite insulting.

I helped my daughter purchase a Subaru a year or so ago. My approach is, after researching a fair market price, to give the sales person an immediate offer. I find this sets the parameters of what I am looking for up front eliminating much of the negotiation games. It also gets the sales manager actively involved as opposed to staying in the tower. I do not believe a really good deal can be achieved unless the sales manager is actively involved.

In this case the sales person asked for a $500 deposit to show his sales manager we were serious. I looked at the guy and asked why his sales manager would not conclude we were serious since we had already taken the time to visit his dealership. The deposit request was not repeated. A few moments later the sales manager entered the discussion. A deal was reached shortly thereafter.

Later an amusing, to me, thing happened. After the numbers were agreed upon, my wife overheard the sales person talking to the F&I manager. He said, "good luck with this guy." There were no high pressure games in the box. We signed the papers and left no additional money at the dealership.

Another sales game I find insulting is the old four-square tactic. Only once in the past few years, when I have bought or leased about ten vehicles, have I seen a sales person pull out a four-square. When he did, I pulled out a piece of paper and configured my own four-square. When he asked what I was doing, I told him I would be noting his numbers. His four-square disappeared shortly thereafter. Not much time went by before the sales manager was talking to me. Again, a deal was reached shortly thereafter.

driver100

karhill1 said:

Yes, the deposit ploy is quite amusing and really quite insulting.

I helped my daughter purchase a Subaru a year or so ago. My approach is, after researching a fair market price, to give the sales person an immediate offer. I find this sets the parameters of what I am looking for up front eliminating much of the negotiation games. It also gets the sales manager actively involved as opposed to staying in the tower. I do not believe a really good deal can be achieved unless the sales manager is actively involved.

In this case the sales person asked for a $500 deposit to show his sales manager we were serious. I looked at the guy and asked why his sales manager would not conclude we were serious since we had already taken the time to visit his dealership. The deposit request was not repeated. A few moments later the sales manager entered the discussion. A deal was reached shortly thereafter.

Later an amusing, to me, thing happened. After the numbers were agreed upon, my wife overheard the sales person talking to the F&I manager. He said, "good luck with this guy." There were no high pressure games in the box. We signed the papers and left no additional money at the dealership.

Another sales game I find insulting is the old four-square tactic. Only once in the past few years, when I have bought or leased about ten vehicles, have I seen a sales person pull out a four-square. When he did, I pulled out a piece of paper and configured my own four-square. When he asked what I was doing, I told him I would be noting his numbers. His four-square disappeared shortly thereafter. Not much time went by before the sales manager was talking to me. Again, a deal was reached shortly thereafter.

Good points Karhill. The only thing that concerns me about giving the salesman the price I want to pay for the new car, and the price I expect to get for my trade-in, is if I somehow miscalculated and/or they somehow come up with a lower number.

My thing is I know the amount I want to pay and the value of my trade, but I don't say anything to the salesman. I see what figures they come up with. If they are way out then my radar detecxtor starts working overtime to protect myself. If they are close I may be able to work on them. Especially when they see I know what I am doing.

I don't want to give up my numbers just in case they come back at a better price, and that actually did happen to me once. I went to the dealer where I bought my 1995 Jeep with an ad for a 2000 Jeep that seemed really good, and said I would buy a new 2000 if he could match the price in the ad. He said, I can do better than that, and he did. Often car companies reduce prices suddenly, or certain packages get included etc., so I always want to hear the dealers numbers before I give away my hand.

I wasn't sure exactly what a 4 Square was so this guy explains it really well, and he doesn't hold back. He says occassionally people just go along with it. He shows how it is a real scam.

How the 4 Square is a scam

qbrozen

dino001 said:

I think the main story was that 2015 CTS sales crashed, mostly due to very significant price increase with the new model. Cadillac is trying to reposition CTS as clearly midlevel model of their lineup, just like E-class and 5-series, but in doing so they had to lose sales vs. previous year. The overall issue may also be that whatever CTS left behind may not be fully realized by ATS, as some disappointed buyers may simply walk away from the brand altogether. ATS was cannibalizing previous CTS, now it should pick up some sales of the trade-down from CTS due to pricing, but not all - so at the end of the day the combination may suffer some significant losses in unit sales for 2015.

wait... what? 2015 sales crashed? Where was that in the numbers stated? 2015 just started, so what are you referring to?? You lost me. Maybe you meant 2014 CTS sales? But where was the crash? It went down like 1000 units from the previous year, and I bet that gets made up with leftover sales the first quarter of this year, so virtually flat year-over-year. Or maybe you are referring to the crash that happened from 2012 to 2013?? It went down about 14k sales, meanwhile picking up 32k new sales with the ATS.

Yes, the CTS went a bit upmarket. They were playing an in-between size game and now they've changed direction. Happens all the time. The newest Civic is the size of the old Accord, etc, etc. Every manufacturer I can think of does it. And, in doing so, shifts some sales. So whereas you only had the CTS, they now have combined ATS and CTS sales, which exceed what the CTS made up alone. So I see it as an increase. If anything, we could probably say the ATS isn't doing what they hoped because it doesn't even touch 3-series sales (120k 3-series and 57k 5-series in 2013).

graphicguy

driver....karhlil....

Haven't run into the old 4 square in quite some time. Then again, most but not all of the time, I have a printout of my own with my offer. It shows the purchase price I'm willing to pay for the new car, the amount I expect for my trade (if any), taxes, tags, title transfer amount (or, what some say are doc fees).

Doc fees are a particular pet peeve of mine. That's probably because dealerships have told me, more than once, that they are required by law to charge them. When I ask them to show me the law they're referring to, they never are able to. In OHIO, the doc fees are capped at $250. Not so long ago, they were capped at less than a $100, though. If you're trying to pad your profit, say so. "Mr GG we're adding $250 to the cost of your purchase because we want to make more money." I would respect that more than the types of trickery some dealerships try....like doc fees, window etching fees, car wax fees, or the latest I just heard, inventory fees.

In short, I bring my offer, explain it's a one time offer and that I'm buying today, right now, no ifs, ands or buts about it, if my offer is accepted. If not, we'll part ways, no ill feelings.

I believe the longer you're sitting at the dealership trying to cut a deal, the more they're going to bump you up on your offer.

I want to know how much money I'm going to spend, down to the last dollar, before I walk into the dealership. I'm always surprised when I make my offer, explain how it's a one time offer, and how many times the dealer still tries to bump me.

I get how it might be a little unsettling not getting into the "if we, will you?" game with the dealership, It bothers me even more (actually irritates me) when I have to go back and forth, back and forth, not knowing where we'll end up on price.

I have some dealers who understand the way I deal. Those are easy deals....in and out quickly with little fuss. I do my research, here and elsewhere, to get a good feel what price will buy the car, but is probably skinnier than the dealers usually do. BUt, it's a quick, easy deal and they prefer that over missing a sale. I look at dealer stock levels of the car I want. I note the time of year I'm trying to deal (this helped this year in getting skinny on my CTS), etc.

I never feel like I left any significant amount of money on the table. And, if by odd chance I did, I doubt it was ever more than $100, if that. Worth it to me to get in and out of the dealership as easily as possible.

houdini1

oldfarmer50 said:

imidazol97 said:

How about a new Buick, based on a concept car? Suggestions being made to call it "Riviera."
How does this fit into Buick's lineup to change the target demographic?



Or how about a coupe?



And a sedan?

I'll take the first two. I liked the old nameplate too.

I'm just the opposite. From that angle I like the sedan.

stever

karhill1 said:

After the numbers were agreed upon, my wife overheard the sales person talking to the F&I manager. He said, "good luck with this guy."

High praise indeed.

@graphicguy, the problem is, unless you're like Mike and they know you already, the bump often works (often? maybe 80 or 90% of the time?). So don't take it personally if they think you're a "buyers are liars" tire-kicker like most people. What do you do - walk and leave your number?

I read a lot of dealer reviews here. It's amazing depressing how many people get treated poorly at the dealer - flat out lied to if you believe the posters - and yet they still are so much in love with the car or have so much time "invested" in the process (aka, the dealer wore them down), that they still purchased the car. No wonder the bad behavior keeps happening, it keeps getting rewarded.

I like that the four square illustration at your link came from us.

ab348

Hey, @abacomike ! Mike! Are you there?

I'm slightly concerned...

imidazol97

stever said:

I read a lot of dealer reviews here. It's amazing depressing how many people get treated poorly at the dealer - flat out lied to if you believe the posters - and yet they still are so much in love with the car or have so much time "invested" in the process (aka, the dealer wore them down), that they still purchased the car. No wonder the bad behavior keeps happening, it keeps getting rewarded.

A lady working at a restaurant commented the day we had our last 5 inch snow (for those in Florida, that's the white stuff that's slick) and she had just bought a new car. She thought it was 4-wheel drive and it was supposed to be because that's what she was buying, but it turned out it's a 2-wheel drive.

What does she do?

Mr_Shiftright

RE: "Avenir" -- means "the future". I see a tip o' the hat towards the '71 Riviera boat tail. They should give that design to Cadillac, pack it with tech, wood and leather and give Lexus a good run.

ray80

imidazol97 said:

stever said:

I read a lot of dealer reviews here. It's amazing depressing how many people get treated poorly at the dealer - flat out lied to if you believe the posters - and yet they still are so much in love with the car or have so much time "invested" in the process (aka, the dealer wore them down), that they still purchased the car. No wonder the bad behavior keeps happening, it keeps getting rewarded.

A lady working at a restaurant commented the day we had our last 5 inch snow (for those in Florida, that's the white stuff that's slick) and she had just bought a new car. She thought it was 4-wheel drive and it was supposed to be because that's what she was buying, but it turned out it's a 2-wheel drive.

What does she do?

Hope she can work something out with dealer? ( Oh wait, thats the dealer that sold her the 4WD that wasn't,,,Hhmm)

ab348

imidazol97 said:

A lady working at a restaurant commented the day we had our last 5 inch snow (for those in Florida, that's the white stuff that's slick) and she had just bought a new car. She thought it was 4-wheel drive and it was supposed to be because that's what she was buying, but it turned out it's a 2-wheel drive.

What does she do?

Did she buy a CRV? Isn't that what they're all like?

stever

imidazol97 said:

A lady working at a restaurant commented the day we had our last 5 inch snow (for those in Florida, that's the white stuff that's slick) and she had just bought a new car. She thought it was 4-wheel drive and it was supposed to be because that's what she was buying, but it turned out it's a 2-wheel drive.

What does she do?

Different make but she's not the only one, believe it or not.

Brought new car home and my AWD purchase is actually Fwd.

henryn

I remember 20 years ago, I was doing volunteer work at an animal shelter. One of the nice older ladies that I worked with showed up in a new car. Everyone was commenting, telling her nice it looked. She said, "Yes, and we got a great deal. It's only $300 a month."

I looked at her funny, opened my mouth, thought twice, closed my mouth and never said a word.

There are a lot of math-challenged people in this world. And each and every one of them needs someone (like one of the regulars here) to go with them when they are car shopping.

Mr_Shiftright

Well if it was a Bentley that WOULD have been a great deal!

People need to rephrase the term "a month" into "EVERY month".

isellhondas

I find it so hard to believe that some people will finance cars for 72 or 84 months but it's pretty common now.

Years ago there was a talk show host on radio, Bruce Williams who used to say that if a person needed to finance a car for more than 36 months they were buying a car they couldn't afford.

driver100

stever said:

imidazol97 said:

A lady working at a restaurant commented the day we had our last 5 inch snow (for those in Florida, that's the white stuff that's slick) and she had just bought a new car. She thought it was 4-wheel drive and it was supposed to be because that's what she was buying, but it turned out it's a 2-wheel drive.

What does she do?

Different make but she's not the only one, believe it or not.

Brought new car home and my AWD purchase is actually Fwd.


What model car comes with a choice of RWD or FWD? How could the salesman not have noticed. I wonder what his bill of sale says he actually bought? What a goof up!

driver100

henryn said:

I remember 20 years ago, I was doing volunteer work at an animal shelter. One of the nice older ladies that I worked with showed up in a new car. Everyone was commenting, telling her nice it looked. She said, "Yes, and we got a great deal. It's only $300 a month."

I looked at her funny, opened my mouth, thought twice, closed my mouth and never said a word.

There are a lot of math-challenged people in this world. And each and every one of them needs someone (like one of the regulars here) to go with them when they are car shopping.

And do we know if she had a trade in?
I suppose there are a lot of people who only care what their monthly payment will be.
Saying you got a car for only $300 month is meaningless...without more details.

Michaell

driver100 said:

henryn said:

I remember 20 years ago, I was doing volunteer work at an animal shelter. One of the nice older ladies that I worked with showed up in a new car. Everyone was commenting, telling her nice it looked. She said, "Yes, and we got a great deal. It's only $300 a month."

I looked at her funny, opened my mouth, thought twice, closed my mouth and never said a word.

There are a lot of math-challenged people in this world. And each and every one of them needs someone (like one of the regulars here) to go with them when they are car shopping.

And do we know if she had a trade in?
I suppose there are a lot of people who only care what their monthly payment will be.
Saying you got a car for only $300 month is meaningless...without more details.

I see it occasionally in the lease discussions ...

"My quote is for $300/mo on a (fill in the blank with car name here). I'm only putting $4000 down. Good deal?"

Well, as long as you understand that over 36 months, that $4000 works out to $111/mo, which means your true payment is over $400/mo.

"But I had to do that to get the payment where I wanted"

OK, just hope that your car isn't totaled or stolen during the lease. If it is, you're out that money.

"Yeah, OK, thanks"

Must .... resist .... urge .... to tell them .... to get .... a less expensive car.

Not my place to tell people how to spend their money.

driver100

On Cadillac sales. The auto industry had a blockbuster month in Dec and GM had a 20% increase in sales. However Cadillac sales were down;
***********************************************************

GM's Cadillac GM's luxury marque, continued to tumble despite new models. Its sales were down 11.1% in December as plunges by new-design ATS, CTS and XTS sedans were too big to be balanced by hefty jumps by its big Escalade truck-style SUV models.

Even the brand's stalwart SRX, a mid-size, two-row crossover SUV, was a dog, down 19.3%. It remains the best-selling Cadillac, though.

New Cadillac boss Johan de Nysschen, in charge the past six months, is charged with fixing that problem -- or making a lot more money for the brand on fewer sales.
************************************************************
One reason for the decrease from what I can figure out is the CTS began to compete with the 5 Series, E, and A6 so got larger and cost went up $7 to $8K. You can't do the volume you did at lower prices. However,Cadillac is getting the price of the average car sold bumped up, so making more per car. The have to do a lot of strategizing, and the key is to offer more content but try to maintain the price.

USA Today - December car sales

nyccarguy

Keith - that's such a low life thing to do. A customer of mine has a RWD LS Tahoe that he bought from a big screamer ad dealer. He didn't find out it was RWD until he couldn't make it up the hill to get to his house with about 2 inches of snow on the ground. People who aren't "car people" think SUV = 4WD.

The easiest thing to do is buy a set of snow tires. Unless she plans on climbing the Canadian Rockies anytime soon with her SUV, she should be fine.

The hard thing to do would be to contact the dealer principal via phone and snail mail (with return receipt requested) and try to battle for a replacement car WITH 4WD. Tell him (or her) that you (she) was deliberately taken advantage of by (name the salesman) and was never told the car didn't have 4WD. She wants to give the dealer principal 1 shot to make this right otherwise she's going to tell her story on edmunds, dealer rater, the local "shame on you..."

stickguy

Driver, lots of small CUVs are fwd standard, AWD optional. CRV, escape, and I'm sure there are others. Tahoes too I assume cone RWD.

My RDX came FWD standard. Unless you stuck your head underneath, the only way to tell was a little badge on the back.

So it is real easy to see how a dealer that wanted to could pull off the switcheroo.

nyccarguy

I feel like depending what region of the country you are located, the only reason a dealer would stock a 2WD (FWD or RWD) SUV would be for screamer ad purposes or to be deceptive. I know the Jeep Dealer in Manhattan does this. They advertise Grand Cherokees stupid cheap (with an outrageous down payment of course), but it does say in the fine print that it is 2WD.

stickguy

I have no actually need for AWD down by me. Though hard to find SUVs or RWD based sedans without it.

dino001

driver100 said:

However,Cadillac is getting the price of the average car sold bumped up, so making more per car. The have to do a lot of strategizing, and the key is to offer more content but try to maintain the price.

That is not a given. New CTS likely costs them more to make and it cost them to develop. If they expected volume X (i.e. modeled their profit and costs) and they only get fraction, there is trouble. One thing I heard, they are slowing production and even laying off people from Cadillac lines, so it can't be good.

graphicguy

stever said:

karhill1 said:

After the numbers were agreed upon, my wife overheard the sales person talking to the F&I manager. He said, "good luck with this guy."

High praise indeed.

@graphicguy, the problem is, unless you're like Mike and they know you already, the bump often works (often? maybe 80 or 90% of the time?). So don't take it personally if they think you're a "buyers are liars" tire-kicker like most people. What do you do - walk and leave your number?

I read a lot of dealer reviews here. It's amazing depressing how many people get treated poorly at the dealer - flat out lied to if you believe the posters - and yet they still are so much in love with the car or have so much time "invested" in the process (aka, the dealer wore them down), that they still purchased the car. No wonder the bad behavior keeps happening, it keeps getting rewarded.

I like that the four square illustration at your link came from us.

Stever.....the biggest and best tool a buyer has when trying to buy a car are his or her feet. I've used that tool more than once. I've heard "if you can buy the car for the offer you're making, better snatch it up". A few days later when the sales person follows up and calls me, I inform them I took their advice and snatched the car up.

Everyone is afraid that the only way to get a good deal is to play the "bump and grind" game. First time you do your research, make your offer (and no, the dealer won't make a deal if he's losing money) and you're in and out of the dealership in record time, you won't go back to trying to spending inordinate amount of time trying to make a deal.

There was a long time poster here by the nickname of "bobst". He did the same thing. I tried his method of making one offer (IIRC it was for a Pontiac Vibe I was buying as a 2nd car). I looked at Edmunds invoice, looked at incentives, looked at stock levels. I made an offer that was invoice, minus incentives, plus $50, plus tax, title, tags. First dealer wanted to bump me. I walked. 2nd dealer asked if I were buying right now. I informed him I was. We made the deal in 5 minutes.

Couple days later, first dealer called me and countered me with an offer that was still #300 higher than what I paid, with the instruction that I had to come in that night to get the deal as it would be gone tomorrow. I informed him I already made a deal at my original offer.

I've stuck to that way of buying cars ever since.

Craig....I used to listen to Bruce Williams religiously on the radio. Loved his show. Do you know whatever happened to him?

imidazol97

graphicguy said:

Craig....I used to listen to Bruce Williams religiously on the radio. Loved his show. Do you know whatever happened to him?

https://www.facebook.com/TheBruceWilliamsShow

isellhondas

I'm a step ahead of you and I already "googled" Bruce Williams.

It dawned on me that I hadn't heard him in years and now I know why. His syndicated radio program ended in 2010. I always enjoyed his level headed common sense manner.


Bruce is now 83 which means he stuck at it until he was 78!

Michaell

graphicguy said:

stever said:

karhill1 said:

After the numbers were agreed upon, my wife overheard the sales person talking to the F&I manager. He said, "good luck with this guy."

High praise indeed.

@graphicguy, the problem is, unless you're like Mike and they know you already, the bump often works (often? maybe 80 or 90% of the time?). So don't take it personally if they think you're a "buyers are liars" tire-kicker like most people. What do you do - walk and leave your number?

I read a lot of dealer reviews here. It's amazing depressing how many people get treated poorly at the dealer - flat out lied to if you believe the posters - and yet they still are so much in love with the car or have so much time "invested" in the process (aka, the dealer wore them down), that they still purchased the car. No wonder the bad behavior keeps happening, it keeps getting rewarded.

I like that the four square illustration at your link came from us.

Stever.....the biggest and best tool a buyer has when trying to buy a car are his or her feet. I've used that tool more than once. I've heard "if you can buy the car for the offer you're making, better snatch it up". A few days later when the sales person follows up and calls me, I inform them I took their advice and snatched the car up.

Everyone is afraid that the only way to get a good deal is to play the "bump and grind" game. First time you do your research, make your offer (and no, the dealer won't make a deal if he's losing money) and you're in and out of the dealership in record time, you won't go back to trying to spending inordinate amount of time trying to make a deal.

There was a long time poster here by the nickname of "bobst". He did the same thing. I tried his method of making one offer (IIRC it was for a Pontiac Vibe I was buying as a 2nd car). I looked at Edmunds invoice, looked at incentives, looked at stock levels. I made an offer that was invoice, minus incentives, plus $50, plus tax, title, tags. First dealer wanted to bump me. I walked. 2nd dealer asked if I were buying right now. I informed him I was. We made the deal in 5 minutes.

Couple days later, first dealer called me and countered me with an offer that was still #300 higher than what I paid, with the instruction that I had to come in that night to get the deal as it would be gone tomorrow. I informed him I already made a deal at my original offer.

I've stuck to that way of buying cars ever since.

Craig....I used to listen to Bruce Williams religiously on the radio. Loved his show. Do you know whatever happened to him?

Bruce Williams retired in 2010:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Williams_(talk_radio_host)

js06gv

I had forgotten about Bruce Williams and how much I used to enjoy his show so I googled too. Found he came back on in 2012 and left again in 2013. There are archived podcasts here. Listening to one right now. http://www.brucewilliams.com/about_bruce.html

driver100

stickguy said:

Driver, lots of small CUVs are fwd standard, AWD optional. CRV, escape, and I'm sure there are others. Tahoes too I assume cone RWD.

My RDX came FWD standard. Unless you stuck your head underneath, the only way to tell was a little badge on the back.

So it is real easy to see how a dealer that wanted to could pull off the switcheroo.

Stick, yeh that's true. I think even mine can come as a RWD model. So, how does that work. Obviously, on the original agreement she would have checked off she was buying and paying for AWD. Then when the car arrives she signs off on it, drives it away, and finds out is RWD or FWD. Who is responsible?

driver100

graphicguy said:

stever said:

karhill1 said:

After the numbers were agreed upon, my wife overheard the sales person talking to the F&I manager. He said, "good luck with this guy."

High praise indeed.

@graphicguy, the problem is, unless you're like Mike and they know you already, the bump often works (often? maybe 80 or 90% of the time?). So don't take it personally if they think you're a "buyers are liars" tire-kicker like most people. What do you do - walk and leave your number?

I read a lot of dealer reviews here. It's amazing depressing how many people get treated poorly at the dealer - flat out lied to if you believe the posters - and yet they still are so much in love with the car or have so much time "invested" in the process (aka, the dealer wore them down), that they still purchased the car. No wonder the bad behavior keeps happening, it keeps getting rewarded.

I like that the four square illustration at your link came from us.

Stever.....the biggest and best tool a buyer has when trying to buy a car are his or her feet. I've used that tool more than once. I've heard "if you can buy the car for the offer you're making, better snatch it up". A few days later when the sales person follows up and calls me, I inform them I took their advice and snatched the car up.

Everyone is afraid that the only way to get a good deal is to play the "bump and grind" game. First time you do your research, make your offer (and no, the dealer won't make a deal if he's losing money) and you're in and out of the dealership in record time, you won't go back to trying to spending inordinate amount of time trying to make a deal.

There was a long time poster here by the nickname of "bobst". He did the same thing. I tried his method of making one offer (IIRC it was for a Pontiac Vibe I was buying as a 2nd car). I looked at Edmunds invoice, looked at incentives, looked at stock levels. I made an offer that was invoice, minus incentives, plus $50, plus tax, title, tags. First dealer wanted to bump me. I walked. 2nd dealer asked if I were buying right now. I informed him I was. We made the deal in 5 minutes.

Couple days later, first dealer called me and countered me with an offer that was still #300 higher than what I paid, with the instruction that I had to come in that night to get the deal as it would be gone tomorrow. I informed him I already made a deal at my original offer.

I've stuck to that way of buying cars ever since.

Craig....I used to listen to Bruce Williams religiously on the radio. Loved his show. Do you know whatever happened to him?

The thing that I don't understand in your post GG is....you bought a Pontiac Vibe?

Just joking...had to do that.

But, just what if you calculated wrong, give your price.....Here's my trade, here is what I'll pay for the new car........and this is exactly what I will pay all in or I am walking out the door.

And the car maker has just reduced prices that day, or the dealer needs to sell a car that day to make a quota.
What if the dealer would have sold you the car for $500 less just for some unknown reason?

That's why I want to hear his price too. Also, by hearing his price I get an idea how honest he is. When I talked to a salesman about a Honda Fit for my friend he gave me a price, it included a dealer discount of $500 and if he bought by the end of the week he would get a Honda discount of $500. My friend may have haggled for another $100 off but Honda won't vear from these prices by much...maybe throw in floor mats or something. I may have misjudged, walked in and said I want $700 off the MSRP or I am walking, and lose $300!

I'd rather get a sense of where and who I am dealing with....so I let them come up with a price. In fact, I am thinking some time I just may say, you tell me what it will cost for me to buy a new car, I have done all my homework, and if it isn't right on I am leaving.

stickguy

driver, depends on the model I guess, and how they write it up. the VIN is going to be a FWD, so hopefully they wrote it down correctly, but I guess they could have just written "2014 Acadia SLT", since AWD would just be an option on it.

stever

@graphicguy, Bruce Williams, bobst. Lots of "old" names coming up. I forget the name of the current guy on, I assume, AM radio, doing the call in money stuff. Bruce was much better because he'd actually stick his neck out and tell you how it was.

(I did flash on @bobst when I read your post. He was a bit infamous around here). Your way really is better than mine. I fool around at the dealer for three hours and then walk, basically having wasted the salesperson's name. Guess I'm always afraid they actually will say okay!

(Aside to @roadburner‌, thanks for the spam click - sometimes jumping around here we miss those so the heads up is much appreciated. Ironically, our automated spam filter caught two of @isellhondas' posts. Go figure.)

fezo

"Ironically, our automated spam filter caught two of @isellhondas' posts. Go figure.)"

Must not speak. Must not speak.....

imidazol97

stever said:

(Aside to @roadburner‌, thanks for the spam click - sometimes jumping around here we miss those so the heads up is much appreciated. Ironically, our automated spam filter caught two of @isellhondas' posts. Go figure.)

I can't recall the last time I've come across a spam post on the new forums. Edmunds
staff is doing a good job of catching them, apparently with a little help from regulars like RB.

As I read you post, it says "spam click." If one of us sees a questionable post, does that mean
just clicking the "flag" button is enough, or is an email to a host called for?

ray80

imidazol97 said:

stever said:

(Aside to @roadburner‌, thanks for the spam click - sometimes jumping around here we miss those so the heads up is much appreciated. Ironically, our automated spam filter caught two of @isellhondas' posts. Go figure.)

I can't recall the last time I've come across a spam post on the new forums. Edmunds
staff is doing a good job of catching them, apparently with a little help from regulars like RB.

As I read you post, it says "spam click." If one of us sees a questionable post, does that mean
just clicking the "flag" button is enough, or is an email to a host called for?

I have flagged a few here and there as spam without an email and they seem to go away in time. Just tagged one this AM in fact