Went to lunch with friends. They have a 2014 Dodge Caravan that has 70k miles on it. Needed some repairs, the main one was the media center including back up camera, gps, radio etc. stopped working....total repair bill was $3400. While at the dealer they decided to buy a new Pacifica which they pick up today. They were thinking of trading in the van a few months ago...now they wish they did. They want a new one with a warranty. They have owned several Chrysler vans before, with no major problems.
I think considering the repair bill, I would have looked into getting an Odyssey this time around.
You mean they paid $3400 and THEN traded it to the dealer? I bet there were high fives all around that showroom.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
@driver100, Seems like a 2nd opinion would have been a good idea for your friends. Sometimes you can disconnect the battery for a period of time to reset things.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
We had the infotainment die on the ‘08 T&C. I found a refurbed replacement DVD unit on ebay for less than $300, IIRC, vs the $1200 the stealership wanted to do the job.
Hope your friends got the extended warranty Gold this time.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Good. I hate noisy exhausts except at a race track. I think every Harley with straight pipes should be crushed and the driver's children put in foster homes.
Went to lunch with friends. They have a 2014 Dodge Caravan that has 70k miles on it. Needed some repairs, the main one was the media center including back up camera, gps, radio etc. stopped working....total repair bill was $3400. While at the dealer they decided to buy a new Pacifica which they pick up today. They were thinking of trading in the van a few months ago...now they wish they did. They want a new one with a warranty. They have owned several Chrysler vans before, with no major problems.
I think considering the repair bill, I would have looked into getting an Odyssey this time around.
Sounds like they should have bought the new vehicle *before* repairing the old one instead of immediately after (or during?). Are they keeping it?
They took the old van in and while the repairs were being done they checked out a new Pacifica and decided they don't know what will go next on the old van....decided they want a new van with a warranty. I get the impression they have the money and don't mind spending it to get a new van...they are sorry they didn't do it before this last repair.
I think considering the repair bill, I would have looked into getting an Odyssey this time around.
Why an Odyssey? Are we back to the supposed reputations of vehicles?
It would be much more practical to buy from a dealer that discounts the Chrysler additional warranty. Usually the company warranty added over the long powertrain warranty provides bumper to bumper warranty for choices up to nearly 100K miles.
The new Odysseys apparently have had some teething pains too, largely involving the same areas (media/infotainment),
Stick, o you really save much trading it in with things broken? Whenever I did that they always told me....we have to get it repaired anyway and the service department charges us the full cost of repairs.
Hmmm.... I think I would have been scrounging around the junk yards. $3,400 is a lot of money. Worst case, go aftermarket, get a new head unit with Nav / XM radio / backup display installed by a competent shop for less than half of that.
Henryn, most of us would have tried that, these people have the money, they were almost ready to buy a new van, they want 3 years of new car warranty and a newer van. They were ready to trade....this pushed them to do it sooner.
I think considering the repair bill, I would have looked into getting an Odyssey this time around.
Well, the Odyssey doesn't have the stow-and-go seats. Main reason I have the T&C instead of the Odyssey.
Well, that and the fact that the T&C depreciated much worse, so that a year old T&C was about $7 or $8k cheaper than a year old Odyssey. When the new ones cost very similar amounts.
A little while ago they were thinking of a CPO Pacifica.....but, when this one was being repaired they decided to check the showroom...found a new one they like, so bought it. They are just sorry they didn't make time to do it before the $3400 repair.
Went to lunch with friends. They have a 2014 Dodge Caravan that has 70k miles on it. Needed some repairs, the main one was the media center including back up camera, gps, radio etc. stopped working....total repair bill was $3400. While at the dealer they decided to buy a new Pacifica which they pick up today. They were thinking of trading in the van a few months ago...now they wish they did. They want a new one with a warranty. They have owned several Chrysler vans before, with no major problems.
I think considering the repair bill, I would have looked into getting an Odyssey this time around.
You mean they paid $3400 and THEN traded it to the dealer? I bet there were high fives all around that showroom.
Not a great situation...but, what else could they do? They didn't know the cost would be $3400 when they drove in. While the current van was being fixed they found a new one they liked - knew they could afford it....so they said we'll bite the bullet, consider the repair a loss and move on. Yes, I wonder if the dealer planned this to happen.......a great way to make money on repairs and sell a new car - if the people seem to be able to afford it.
@driver100, Seems like a 2nd opinion would have been a good idea for your friends. Sometimes you can disconnect the battery for a period of time to reset things.
Explorer, a 2nd opinion probably would have been a good idea. The dealer may not have been too honest about the repairs. I tend to trust a good indie garage if I know of one. I don't like a system where the service manager has to reach certain volumes of dollars to keep his job.
We had the infotainment die on the ‘08 T&C. I found a refurbed replacement DVD unit on ebay for less than $300, IIRC, vs the $1200 the stealership wanted to do the job.
Hope your friends got the extended warranty Gold this time.
That is the way to do it...if you are so inclined. These people are at a different point in life, they don't want to spend the time, they want a new car, they can afford it....don't like losing $3400 but they have a new van and it works for them.
I think considering the repair bill, I would have looked into getting an Odyssey this time around.
Why an Odyssey? Are we back to the supposed reputations of vehicles?
It would be much more practical to buy from a dealer that discounts the Chrysler additional warranty. Usually the company warranty added over the long powertrain warranty provides bumper to bumper warranty for choices up to nearly 100K miles.
Any list I have seen rates the Odyssey minivan as #1 including this list from US News. 2019 Honda Odyssey. Find Best Price. The 2019 Honda Odyssey finishes near the top of our minivan rankings. ... 2019 Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid. Find Best Price. ... 2019 Chrysler Pacifica. Find Best Price. ... 2018 Kia Sedona. Find Best Price. ... 2019 Toyota Sienna. Find Best Price. ... 2019 Dodge Grand Caravan. Find Best Pric
BTW....I saw that ad on TV and they say...."In a Nationwide survey Chevy came first" Who knows what survey it is, which models are involved, etc. Why don't they name the survey, maybe it was GM dealers.
I once took an entrepreneur course and they said it is good to make a little badge that says you won a contest even if it is something you made up, or if it is a relative for example, and say you were voted best......do this on your brochures.
that is how dealers (normally) work. A lot of other repair shops too, but IMO indies not quite as much. They want the job done, so go straight to the ultimate repair. Just replace it all with new, instead of spending time trying to fix. Not that a dealer is ever going to go with a used or reman part.
Like Driver said, some people have either no time or ability to do it themselves, so they are at the dealers mercy
I think considering the repair bill, I would have looked into getting an Odyssey this time around.
Why an Odyssey? Are we back to the supposed reputations of vehicles?
It would be much more practical to buy from a dealer that discounts the Chrysler additional warranty. Usually the company warranty added over the long powertrain warranty provides bumper to bumper warranty for choices up to nearly 100K miles.
I’m curious if they still offer the lifetime warranty we bought for ours. I’m very curious to see how it plays out for us.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The new Odysseys apparently have had some teething pains too, largely involving the same areas (media/infotainment),
Stick, o you really save much trading it in with things broken? Whenever I did that they always told me....we have to get it repaired anyway and the service department charges us the full cost of repairs.
My last vehicle (a 2004 base model Pontiac Vibe) needed one repair too many. I told the repair shop to hold off on the repairs until I could check out the dealer lot. That’s how we got our current Encore. They gave me a very decent trade — I think $3000 — for a car that wasn’t running. I don’t think they would have given me that plus the repair cost for a 10 year old car, so why bother? This was at my local small town dealer, so that may have made a difference. I imagine they fixed it in-house and let it sit on the lot until someone took it off their hands.
Boch Honda on the Automile in Norwood, MA, is offering a free 20-year, 200,000-mile warranty on all new Honda products.
What's the catch? The warranty is non-transferable and the vehicle must serviced at Boch's based upon the guidelines set forth in the service manual. I believe the 20/200,000 warranty program is available on all brands sold at Boch's multiple brand dealerships.
not a bad deal though, if they are just going with the factory schedule. That would be the maintenance minder, which hardly calls for anything. basically bring it in every 7-10,000 miles for an oil change and rotation, and a few extras (plugs, filters) in the 5 year/100K range, and good to go.
Answered my own question. Apparently they ceased offering the lifetime maximum care plan 12/1/18.
Just a thought, sometime these guarantees are made as an act of desperation. The company is thinking, we better sell some cars or we could go bankrupt, we will offer an incredible warranty, if we survive we will have to service those cars, if we go under.....well, we declare bankruptcy however that would have happened anyway.
Think GM during the crisis...generous warranty, got nothing to lose.
Boch Honda on the Automile in Norwood, MA, is offering a free 20-year, 200,000-mile warranty on all new Honda products.
What's the catch? The warranty is non-transferable and the vehicle must serviced at Boch's based upon the guidelines set forth in the service manual. I believe the 20/200,000 warranty program is available on all brands sold at Boch's multiple brand dealerships.
Now, that's what I call a profit center.
I have seen these warranties and it is just another gimmick. This insures you will take the car to the dealer for service....which is where they make their real money. I am sure you will pay for that warranty over time....as they do every little thing mentioned in the guide book........oil all hinges every 5000 miles, $60 etc. It is also probably a limited warranty.....maybe just drive train.
Boch Honda on the Automile in Norwood, MA, is offering a free 20-year, 200,000-mile warranty on all new Honda products.
What's the catch? The warranty is non-transferable and the vehicle must serviced at Boch's based upon the guidelines set forth in the service manual. I believe the 20/200,000 warranty program is available on all brands sold at Boch's multiple brand dealerships.
Now, that's what I call a profit center.
That likely will work out for some people. But the warranty I want is the one from the manufacturer. In GM's case it's GMEPP IIRC. When I had shopped Hondas earlier, in forums a few people would discuss which Honda stores would sell the warraanty at discount even when they weren't the store selling the Honda. I bought warranties for my GM's from a GM dealer in Pennsylvania. Earlier it was the GMPP plan administered by GMAC IIRC. It's transferrable. It's refundable if I, or now my son, sells the Cruze before the warranty expires. The warranty covers what the powertrain and the emissions warranty required by government don't cover.
I notice even Honda offers extended warranties for their cars, so they must find they're not infallable and able to walk on water like the Civic in the picture tried. I haven't shopped but I'll bet Mercedes offers warranties.
not a bad deal though, if they are just going with the factory schedule. That would be the maintenance minder, which hardly calls for anything. basically bring it in every 7-10,000 miles for an oil change and rotation, and a few extras (plugs, filters) in the 5 year/100K range, and good to go.
A local tyota dealer is including a long term warranty with their used vehicles. Even on the toyotas. It's an in house warranty as I understand the advertising. I assume it's even more rigorous than jmonroe's Hyundai store about check-marking all the requirement to have the warranty cover things. 10 miles late on an oil change--sorry about your motor.
Any list I have seen rates the Odyssey minivan as #1 including this list from US News. 2019 Honda Odyssey. Find Best Price. The 2019 Honda Odyssey finishes near the top of our minivan rankings. ... 2019 Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid. Find Best Price. ... 2019 Chrysler Pacifica. Find Best Price. ... 2018 Kia Sedona. Find Best Price. ... 2019 Toyota Sienna. Find Best Price. ... 2019 Dodge Grand Caravan. Find Best Price
US News can't even report news correctly. Using them to determine which car I should buy would be like checking with ESPN whether to buy a Buick or a Camry.
BTW....I saw that ad on TV and they say...."In a Nationwide survey Chevy came first" Who knows what survey it is, which models are involved, etc. Why don't they name the survey, maybe it was GM dealers.
I know it's hard for people to think past the propaganda and brainwashing that all GM is bad... but sometimes truth gets in the way of the resistance. Even backseat legroom beliefs are wrong. But it proves if the "media" says something often enough, people begin to believe it. This was worked for 3 decades in the US.
GM has already moved to the next ad campaign supporting the Silverado sales. I notice the article tries to sound as though the complaints of the losers are forcing GM to move on.
Here are quotes:
"Chevrolet stands by the reliability claim and the ad remains in the brand’s toolbox but we have decided to take it out of the regular rotation at this time to launch new Silverado creative," Chevrolet said in an emailed statement to The News. "We have not altered our marketing campaign because of any concerns with the accuracy of our ad content.""Chevrolet stands by the reliability claim and the ad remains in the brand’s toolbox but we have decided to take it out of the regular rotation at this time to launch new Silverado creative," Chevrolet said in an emailed statement to The News. "We have not altered our marketing campaign because of any concerns with the accuracy of our ad content."
"The reliability claim in Chevrolet's commercial, which was scrutinized last week by Jalopnik, is based on a survey of 2015 model-year vehicles commissioned by Chevrolet and completed by Paris-based market research firm Ipsos Group S.A. Fine print at the bottom of Chevy's reliability ad directs viewers to ChevyReliability.com for more information on the survey.
"That website redirects to a one-page document that says Ipsos surveyed owners of 2015 model-year Chevrolet, Buick, GMC and Cadillac owners versus owners of "competitive brands." The research firm sent 840,979 "non-sponsored" letters to targeted owners and received 48,679 completed surveys.
"The definition of reliability, Chevrolet says in the document, "is the percentage of vehicle owners who reported they have not repaired or replaced any vehicle components in the past 12 months (excluding fluids, filters and those related to accident/collision)."
"But J.D. Power's 2018 dependability rankings, which are more similar to the study Chevy commissioned for its reliability ad in that it looks at 2015 model year vehicles, ranked Chevrolet above Toyota, Honda and Ford."
US News can't even report news correctly. Using them to determine which car I should buy would be like checking with ESPN whether to buy a Buick or a Camry
i find the USNews info as a good barometer...I believe they use about 5 sources and then blend them together. They rate cars on a few basic criteria.
About the GM survey.....some GM cars have been very reliable lately, Buick, Impala, Silverado. Good, glad to hear it. Most cars are getting better at improving reliability, there is a group that are all pretty close now.
The ad is a good one in that it does counter the myth.
Boch Honda on the Automile in Norwood, MA, is offering a free 20-year, 200,000-mile warranty on all new Honda products.
What's the catch? The warranty is non-transferable and the vehicle must serviced at Boch's based upon the guidelines set forth in the service manual. I believe the 20/200,000 warranty program is available on all brands sold at Boch's multiple brand dealerships.
Now, that's what I call a profit center.
I think I liked Ernie Boch better when he was a suited car sales guy with a short haircut. Now that he has gone to the grungy rock star look and seems to want to spend his free time playing guitar and acting like a rock star I am concerned that he has taken his hands off the wheel of his dealerships.
My lifetime warranty is different. It isn't the lifetime powertrain warranty Chrysler offer for a couple of years on every vehicle. It also isn't a dealership's own warranty. It is a true Mopar manufacturer's warranty, good at any Chryco dealer. We bought it, so it is transferable, as well. And, yes, unlimited years and miles. The only "out" is that they can choose, at any time, to buy the vehicle from us if the repair cost will exceed the car's value.
Here are some details:
Covered Components Maximum Care is an exclusionary extended warranty, often referred to as a "Bumper-to-Bumper warranty" and as such if it's not excluded, it's covered. The only parts and labor not covered are: Maintenance services and items used in such services. Glass, plastic lenses. Body and paint items, including soft trim. Wear items such as manual clutch assembly, brake pads, shoes, rotors, drums and belts are not covered at any time. Snow plows, winches and trailer hitches
One-Time Plan Transfer Maximum Care allows you to transfer your extended warranty one time in the event you sell your vehicle (a transfer fee of $50 applies in most states).
Coverage Limit It is important to realize that, should a covered component of the vehicle fail, the maximum benefit amount will be the total cost of the repairs per visit less the deductible, or the cash value of the vehicle, whichever is less! The cash value of the vehicle will be determined as current average retail value at the time of the covered repair as listed in the current NADA Used Car Pricing Guide. If at any time the repair costs for covered component(s) exceed the vehicle’s cash value, the final plan benefit will be Mopar’s payment of the vehicle’s cash value rather than the repair costs
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
US News can't even report news correctly. Using them to determine which car I should buy would be like checking with ESPN whether to buy a Buick or a Camry
i find the USNews info as a good barometer...I believe they use about 5 sources and then blend them together. They rate cars on a few basic criteria.
About the GM survey.....some GM cars have been very reliable lately, Buick, Impala, Silverado. Good, glad to hear it. Most cars are getting better at improving reliability, there is a group that are all pretty close now.
The ad is a good one in that it does counter the myth.
I failed to include the link to the Detroit News article.
What I find is hilarious after decades of some of the other 3 companies advertising in obtuse ways inferring things that weren't necessarily true about their cars but trying to imbed them into the minds of the viewers, they're upset when someone uses DATA to advertise. But sometimes, one has to use the same techniques the others use against them. It's always interesting in things now how some don't like it when other parties use the same techniques.
The only hesitancy I have is the 5% return rate on the survey by the French company, all disclosed in the link GM used, because it seems low to me. But using various techniques to verify validity of the returns as a sample must have been satisfactory. AND the JDP survey verified the same DATA. I suspect a return rate of 5% is typical for a mail survey.
The history of how they let Steve Jobs have their developing operating system for nothing. It was called Local Integrated Software Architecture (or LISA, for short). There was a false narrative going around that Steve Jobs named the operating system after his daughter.....UNTRUE....Xerox named it LISA and then gave it to Jobs.
Xerox thought their patents for “xerography” would sustain them. They really didn’t see the onslaught of PCs and personal printers coming. They made a couple of stabs at it. I was part of their STAR team, which was a system for centralized word processing connected via Ethernet (hard wired networking) to Xerox copiers. I did well in that division, first as a Technical Rep, and later as a sales rep. We were competing with IBM’s selectric (ball based print wheel). Ours was what we called a “daisy wheel”, which was a round wheel with “spokes” that had each character represented, struck by a digital “punch”. It was faster and the print on paper looked better than IBM’s Selectric.
Xerox was also at the forefront of Laser Printing, but abandoned that technology, too. They totally whiffed on the success of WANG (now defunct), Osborne (also, defunct) as world processors and personal computing.
They even had the predessors for spreadsheets, slides, and data management (called “QDocs, Qcalc, Qpreso”).
In brief, what would have continued their success, they gave away, which doomed them.
All that said, they taught me a lot in the 10 years I was with them, regardless of how stingy they were. I was setting up and giving 5-6 demos/day in our offices, and closed 70% of those presentations on the spot. We’re talking a minimum of $100K just to get an entry level system. I was living in tall cotton.
I was eventually lured away by a much more generous company (Control Data...now defunct). Career blossomed in tech from that point forward.
I think considering the repair bill, I would have looked into getting an Odyssey this time around.
Why an Odyssey? Are we back to the supposed reputations of vehicles?
It would be much more practical to buy from a dealer that discounts the Chrysler additional warranty. Usually the company warranty added over the long powertrain warranty provides bumper to bumper warranty for choices up to nearly 100K miles.
Saw that Chevy had to pull their reliability ads after they were challenged by Honda and Toyota. Probably an ill-conceived ad campaign. Gotta give them an “A” for effort, though. They threw lots of media and dollars behind the campaign. If it was an internally sourced campaign, someone’s losing their job over spending that amount of money without having iron clad evidence of the claims.
If it’s an outside agency, I’m thinking GM’s going to want a refund.
Xerox thought their patents for “xerography” would sustain them. They really didn’t see the onslaught of PCs and personal printers coming. They made a couple of stabs at it. I was part of their STAR team, which was a system for centralized word processing connected via Ethernet (hard wired networking) to Xerox copiers. I did well in that division, first as a Technical Rep, and later as a sales rep. We were competing with IBM’s selectric (ball based print wheel). Ours was what we called a “daisy wheel”, which was a round wheel with “spokes” that had each character represented, struck by a digital “punch”. It was faster and the print on paper looked better than IBM’s Selectric.
Xerox was also at the forefront of Laser Printing, but abandoned that technology, too. They totally whiffed on the success of WANG (now defunct), Osborne (also, defunct) as world processors and personal computing.
They even had the predessors for spreadsheets, slides, and data management (called “QDocs, Qcalc, Qpreso”).
In brief, what would have continued their success, they gave away, which doomed them.
All that said, they taught me a lot in the 10 years I was with them, regardless of how stingy they were. I was setting up and giving 5-6 demos/day in our offices, and closed 70% of those presentations on the spot. We’re talking a minimum of $100K just to get an entry level system. I was living in tall cotton.
I was eventually lured away by a much more generous company (Control Data...now defunct). Career blossomed in tech from that point forward.
Xerox is an example of defensive thinking that comes back to bite you, with the vengeance. The wrong type of greed, focused on small metrics and lack of vision. People often say that "bottom line thinking" is bad. I say, it's not that the bottom line, it's about how it's calculated and the time frame it is used to. If you cut down R&D, the spreadsheets in the formula won't tell you how much sales you'll lose. So in fact, it's the reality model that's wrong (formulas in the spreadsheet), not the focus on the bottom line. Well, also perhaps quarterly approach to business. Said R&D reduction might actually bring lower cost this quarter without impacting the sales, but couple of quarters later, or more, depending on the industry, your sales go down and your so-called bottom line savings go up in flames. I'm quite sure most execs know that, but they don't care - their compensation plans don't reflect that approach, the current shareholders will be long gone selling the stock to the suckers, who get lured by improved quarterly metrics. I learned to be suspicious when large mature companies report sudden boost in margins (profitability), claiming some awesome management cost cutting actions that nobody ever though about in the last century. Wall Street gets excited, like second coming just discovered new path to profits. I smell short-term action that gets the stock options up.
I read an article in the NY Times today about Paramount Pictures. I did not know that it has been left behind in the business it is in and has been losing money for years. Lots of reasons for that, mostly mismanagement and not seeing the Internet coming on like it did. One good example of what's being discussed here was a mention of Paramount letting Disney acquire the rights it had to distribute the Marvel comic-book superhero movies, which is now Hollywood's oxygen. But the deal let Paramount execs pay themselves bonuses for hitting the profit target that year. Classic short-term thinking.
Boch Honda on the Automile in Norwood, MA, is offering a free 20-year, 200,000-mile warranty on all new Honda products.
What's the catch? The warranty is non-transferable and the vehicle must serviced at Boch's based upon the guidelines set forth in the service manual. I believe the 20/200,000 warranty program is available on all brands sold at Boch's multiple brand dealerships.
Now, that's what I call a profit center.
I think I liked Ernie Boch better when he was a suited car sales guy with a short haircut. Now that he has gone to the grungy rock star look and seems to want to spend his free time playing guitar and acting like a rock star I am concerned that he has taken his hands off the wheel of his dealerships.
The rock star is Ernie Boch, Jr. Ernie Boch passed away a few years back.
May be visiting a few Boch dealers this weekend with the GF (unlikely I'll get her to Ferrari!), time to replace the totaled 328xi. Poor Bimmer, it didn't deserve such an early demise.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
US News can't even report news correctly. Using them to determine which car I should buy would be like checking with ESPN whether to buy a Buick or a Camry
i find the USNews info as a good barometer...I believe they use about 5 sources and then blend them together. They rate cars on a few basic criteria.
About the GM survey.....some GM cars have been very reliable lately, Buick, Impala, Silverado. Good, glad to hear it. Most cars are getting better at improving reliability, there is a group that are all pretty close now.
The ad is a good one in that it does counter the myth.
I failed to include the link to the Detroit News article.
What I find is hilarious after decades of some of the other 3 companies advertising in obtuse ways inferring things that weren't necessarily true about their cars but trying to imbed them into the minds of the viewers, they're upset when someone uses DATA to advertise. But sometimes, one has to use the same techniques the others use against them. It's always interesting in things now how some don't like it when other parties use the same techniques.
The only hesitancy I have is the 5% return rate on the survey by the French company, all disclosed in the link GM used, because it seems low to me. But using various techniques to verify validity of the returns as a sample must have been satisfactory. AND the JDP survey verified the same DATA. I suspect a return rate of 5% is typical for a mail survey.
I think there is a lot of questionable stuff going on with that survey.
"The definition of reliability, Chevrolet says in the document, "is the percentage of vehicle owners who reported they have not repaired or replaced any vehicle components in the past 12 months (excluding fluids, filters and those related to accident/collision)."
It could be that Chevrolet owners are more forgetful. Or, Toyota/Honda owners remember replacing a part more since it is so unexpected. And, they chose one particular year to base it on, 2015! What about other years?
The article says: "Consumer Reports, which surveys its readers every year for a reliability study, found in 2018 that Toyota was the second most-reliable brand after its sister brand, Lexus. Honda finished 15th and Ford finished 18th. All three brands were ahead of Chevrolet at 23rd."
On every report I can recall Toyota and Lexus were at or near the top. According to CR Chevy was far behind the competition.......why go back to 2015 to make your point?
"But J.D. Power's 2018 dependability rankings, which are more similar to the study Chevy commissioned for its reliability ad in that it looks at 2015 model year vehicles, ranked Chevrolet above Toyota, Honda and Ford"
Once again....why 2015?.
I didn't believe the ad when I saw it on TV, and we all know how statistics can be manipulated. Or, maybe, more correct to say, the ad may or may not be true...but, does it mean anything....not really?
Xerox thought their patents for “xerography” would sustain them. They really didn’t see the onslaught of PCs and personal printers coming. They made a couple of stabs at it. I was part of their STAR team, which was a system for centralized word processing connected via Ethernet (hard wired networking) to Xerox copiers. I did well in that division, first as a Technical Rep, and later as a sales rep. We were competing with IBM’s selectric (ball based print wheel). Ours was what we called a “daisy wheel”, which was a round wheel with “spokes” that had each character represented, struck by a digital “punch”. It was faster and the print on paper looked better than IBM’s Selectric.
Xerox was also at the forefront of Laser Printing, but abandoned that technology, too. They totally whiffed on the success of WANG (now defunct), Osborne (also, defunct) as world processors and personal computing.
They even had the predessors for spreadsheets, slides, and data management (called “QDocs, Qcalc, Qpreso”).
In brief, what would have continued their success, they gave away, which doomed them.
All that said, they taught me a lot in the 10 years I was with them, regardless of how stingy they were. I was setting up and giving 5-6 demos/day in our offices, and closed 70% of those presentations on the spot. We’re talking a minimum of $100K just to get an entry level system. I was living in tall cotton.
I was eventually lured away by a much more generous company (Control Data...now defunct). Career blossomed in tech from that point forward.
Xerox is an example of defensive thinking that comes back to bite you, with the vengeance. The wrong type of greed, focused on small metrics and lack of vision.
Exactly, I have witnessed defensive thinking and it almost never works. These days you have to keep moving forward, try new things, change with the times, take risks. If you stand still you will get crushed. And some of these big companies get stuck.....they can't turn on a dime or change the path they are on. That is how the amazons can move in and capture sales from the old school department stores.
I do think all the brands have some vehicles that are more reliable than others. Buick is near the top in most reliability ratings among GM brands. And yet Chevy sells more. So far I’ve had very good luck with both the Encore and the Volt, my first two GM cars ever.
IMHO, Honda and Toyota should not care. The fact that they even let a crappy ad get them riled up is more concerning to me than the ad itself, which I never even paid attention to. Maybe its just the industry I'm in, but "in a survey" means absolutely zero. As soon as I hear or read those words, I know what follows could say ANYTHING and I would not question it or put any stock in it.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Lawyers arguing in court present legal theories—their ideas of how the world and the law intersect, and why this should mean their client is right and the other side is wrong. Proof of one legal theory over another comes in the form of a verdict or court decision. As a culture we have many theories about institutions and behaviors that aren’t so clear-cut in their validity tests (no courtroom, no jury) yet we cling to these theories to feel better about the ways we have chosen to live our lives. In American business, especially, one key theory is that the purpose of corporate enterprise is to “maximize shareholder value.” Some take this even further and claim that such value maximization is the only reason a corporation exists. Watch CNBC or Fox Business News long enough and you’ll begin to believe this is God’s truth, but it’s not. It’s just a theory.
It’s not even a very old theory, in fact, and only dates back to 1976. That’s when Michael Jensen and William Meckling of the University of Rochester published a paper, “Theory of the Firm: Managerial Behavior, Agency Costs and Ownership Structure” in The Journal of Financial Economics. Their theory, in a nutshell, was that there was an inherent conflict in business between owners (shareholders) and managers, and that this conflict had to be resolved in favor of the owners, who after all owned the business; and the best way to do that was to find a way to align those interests by linking managerial compensation to owner success. Link executive compensation primarily to the stock price, the economists argued, and this terrible conflict would be resolved, making business somehow, well, better.
This idea appears to be more of a solution in search of a problem. If the CEO is driving the company into bankruptcy or spends too much money on his own perks, for example, the previous theory of business (and the company bylaws) said shareholders could vote the bum out. But that’s so mundane, so imprecise for economists who see a chance to elegantly align interests and make the system work smoothly and automatically. The only problem is the alignment of interests suggested by Jensen and Meckling works just as well—maybe even better—if management just cooks the books and lies. And so shareholder value maximization gave us companies like Enron (Jeffrey Skilling in prison), Tyco International (Dennis Kozlowski in prison), and WorldCom (Bernie Ebbers in prison).
It’s just a theory, remember.
The Jensen and Meckling paper shook the corporate world because it presented a reason to pay executives more—a lot more—if they made the stock rise. Not if they made a better product, cured a disease, or helped defeat a national enemy. All they had to do was make their stock go up. Through the 1960s and 1970s, average CEO compensation in America per dollar of corporate earnings had gone down 33 percent as companies became more efficient at making money. But now there was a (dubious) reason for compensation to go up, up, up, which it has done consistently for 40+ years, until now when we think this is the way the corporate world is supposed to work—even its raison d’etre.
But in that same time real corporate performance has gone down. The average rate of return on invested capital for public companies in the United States is a quarter of what it was in 1965. Sure, productivity has gone up, but that can be done through automation or by beating more work out of employees (more on that later). Jensen and Meckling created the very problem they purported to solve—a problem that really hadn’t existed in the first place.
Comments
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Seems like a 2nd opinion would have been a good idea for your friends.
Sometimes you can disconnect the battery for a period of time to reset things.
Hope your friends got the extended warranty Gold this time.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
And, yes, get off my lawn!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
It would be much more practical to buy from a dealer that discounts the Chrysler additional warranty. Usually the company warranty added over the long powertrain warranty provides bumper to bumper warranty for choices up to nearly 100K miles.
BTW:
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2019 Honda Odyssey. Find Best Price. The 2019 Honda Odyssey finishes near the top of our minivan rankings. ...
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2019 Dodge Grand Caravan. Find Best Pric
BTW....I saw that ad on TV and they say...."In a Nationwide survey Chevy came first" Who knows what survey it is, which models are involved, etc. Why don't they name the survey, maybe it was GM dealers.
I once took an entrepreneur course and they said it is good to make a little badge that says you won a contest even if it is something you made up, or if it is a relative for example, and say you were voted best......do this on your brochures.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Like Driver said, some people have either no time or ability to do it themselves, so they are at the dealers mercy
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
What's the catch? The warranty is non-transferable and the vehicle must serviced at Boch's based upon the guidelines set forth in the service manual. I believe the 20/200,000 warranty program is available on all brands sold at Boch's multiple brand dealerships.
Now, that's what I call a profit center.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Think GM during the crisis...generous warranty, got nothing to lose.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I notice even Honda offers extended warranties for their cars, so they must find they're not infallable and able to walk on water like the Civic in the picture tried. I haven't shopped but I'll bet Mercedes offers warranties.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
i find the USNews info as a good barometer...I believe they use about 5 sources and then blend them together. They rate cars on a few basic criteria.
About the GM survey.....some GM cars have been very reliable lately, Buick, Impala, Silverado. Good, glad to hear it. Most cars are getting better at improving reliability, there is a group that are all pretty close now.
The ad is a good one in that it does counter the myth.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2019/01/16/table-the-highest-paid-massachusetts-workers/nZ5wZ42sMH1T8m2tZZ17bN/story.html
Here are some details:
Covered Components
Maximum Care is an exclusionary extended warranty, often referred to as a "Bumper-to-Bumper warranty" and as such if it's not excluded, it's covered. The only parts and labor not covered are:
Maintenance services and items used in such services.
Glass, plastic lenses.
Body and paint items, including soft trim.
Wear items such as manual clutch assembly, brake pads, shoes, rotors, drums and belts are not covered at any time.
Snow plows, winches and trailer hitches
One-Time Plan Transfer
Maximum Care allows you to transfer your extended warranty one time in the event you sell your vehicle (a transfer fee of $50 applies in most states).
Coverage Limit
It is important to realize that, should a covered component of the vehicle fail, the maximum benefit amount will be the total cost of the repairs per visit less the deductible, or the cash value of the vehicle, whichever is less! The cash value of the vehicle will be determined as current average retail value at the time of the covered repair as listed in the current NADA Used Car Pricing Guide. If at any time the repair costs for covered component(s) exceed the vehicle’s cash value, the final plan benefit will be Mopar’s payment of the vehicle’s cash value rather than the repair costs
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/general-motors/2019/01/16/chevrolet-ad-stop-airing-after-challenges-ford-toyota-honda/2585826002/
What I find is hilarious after decades of some of the other 3 companies advertising in obtuse ways inferring things that weren't necessarily true about their cars but trying to imbed them into the minds of the viewers, they're upset when someone uses DATA to advertise. But sometimes, one has to use the same techniques the others use against them. It's always interesting in things now how some don't like it when other parties use the same techniques.
The only hesitancy I have is the 5% return rate on the survey by the French company, all disclosed in the link GM used, because it seems low to me. But using various techniques to verify validity of the returns as a sample must have been satisfactory. AND the JDP survey verified the same DATA. I suspect a return rate of 5% is typical for a mail survey.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The history of how they let Steve Jobs have their developing operating system for nothing. It was called Local Integrated Software Architecture (or LISA, for short). There was a false narrative going around that Steve Jobs named the operating system after his daughter.....UNTRUE....Xerox named it LISA and then gave it to Jobs.
Xerox thought their patents for “xerography” would sustain them. They really didn’t see the onslaught of PCs and personal printers coming. They made a couple of stabs at it. I was part of their STAR team, which was a system for centralized word processing connected via Ethernet (hard wired networking) to Xerox copiers. I did well in that division, first as a Technical Rep, and later as a sales rep. We were competing with IBM’s selectric (ball based print wheel). Ours was what we called a “daisy wheel”, which was a round wheel with “spokes” that had each character represented, struck by a digital “punch”. It was faster and the print on paper looked better than IBM’s Selectric.
Xerox was also at the forefront of Laser Printing, but abandoned that technology, too. They totally whiffed on the success of WANG (now defunct), Osborne (also, defunct) as world processors and personal computing.
They even had the predessors for spreadsheets, slides, and data management (called “QDocs, Qcalc, Qpreso”).
In brief, what would have continued their success, they gave away, which doomed them.
All that said, they taught me a lot in the 10 years I was with them, regardless of how stingy they were. I was setting up and giving 5-6 demos/day in our offices, and closed 70% of those presentations on the spot. We’re talking a minimum of $100K just to get an entry level system. I was living in tall cotton.
I was eventually lured away by a much more generous company (Control Data...now defunct). Career blossomed in tech from that point forward.
If it’s an outside agency, I’m thinking GM’s going to want a refund.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
May be visiting a few Boch dealers this weekend with the GF (unlikely I'll get her to Ferrari!), time to replace the totaled 328xi. Poor Bimmer, it didn't deserve such an early demise.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
"The definition of reliability, Chevrolet says in the document, "is the percentage of vehicle owners who reported they have not repaired or replaced any vehicle components in the past 12 months (excluding fluids, filters and those related to accident/collision)."
It could be that Chevrolet owners are more forgetful. Or, Toyota/Honda owners remember replacing a part more since it is so unexpected. And, they chose one particular year to base it on, 2015! What about other years?
The article says:
"Consumer Reports, which surveys its readers every year for a reliability study, found in 2018 that Toyota was the second most-reliable brand after its sister brand, Lexus. Honda finished 15th and Ford finished 18th. All three brands were ahead of Chevrolet at 23rd."
On every report I can recall Toyota and Lexus were at or near the top. According to CR Chevy was far behind the competition.......why go back to 2015 to make your point?
"But J.D. Power's 2018 dependability rankings, which are more similar to the study Chevy commissioned for its reliability ad in that it looks at 2015 model year vehicles, ranked Chevrolet above Toyota, Honda and Ford"
Once again....why 2015?.
I didn't believe the ad when I saw it on TV, and we all know how statistics can be manipulated. Or, maybe, more correct to say, the ad may or may not be true...but, does it mean anything....not really?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
WHY THE CHEVY RELIABILITY AD DOESN'T AMOUNT TO MUCH and is very - defensive!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
https://www.cringely.com/2018/02/26/win-lose-wall-street-screwed-middle-class/
Lawyers arguing in court present legal theories—their ideas of how the world and the law intersect, and why this should mean their client is right and the other side is wrong. Proof of one legal theory over another comes in the form of a verdict or court decision. As a culture we have many theories about institutions and behaviors that aren’t so clear-cut in their validity tests (no courtroom, no jury) yet we cling to these theories to feel better about the ways we have chosen to live our lives. In American business, especially, one key theory is that the purpose of corporate enterprise is to “maximize shareholder value.” Some take this even further and claim that such value maximization is the only reason a corporation exists. Watch CNBC or Fox Business News long enough and you’ll begin to believe this is God’s truth, but it’s not. It’s just a theory.
It’s not even a very old theory, in fact, and only dates back to 1976. That’s when Michael Jensen and William Meckling of the University of Rochester published a paper, “Theory of the Firm: Managerial Behavior, Agency Costs and Ownership Structure” in The Journal of Financial Economics. Their theory, in a nutshell, was that there was an inherent conflict in business between owners (shareholders) and managers, and that this conflict had to be resolved in favor of the owners, who after all owned the business; and the best way to do that was to find a way to align those interests by linking managerial compensation to owner success. Link executive compensation primarily to the stock price, the economists argued, and this terrible conflict would be resolved, making business somehow, well, better.
This idea appears to be more of a solution in search of a problem. If the CEO is driving the company into bankruptcy or spends too much money on his own perks, for example, the previous theory of business (and the company bylaws) said shareholders could vote the bum out. But that’s so mundane, so imprecise for economists who see a chance to elegantly align interests and make the system work smoothly and automatically. The only problem is the alignment of interests suggested by Jensen and Meckling works just as well—maybe even better—if management just cooks the books and lies. And so shareholder value maximization gave us companies like Enron (Jeffrey Skilling in prison), Tyco International (Dennis Kozlowski in prison), and WorldCom (Bernie Ebbers in prison).
It’s just a theory, remember.
The Jensen and Meckling paper shook the corporate world because it presented a reason to pay executives more—a lot more—if they made the stock rise. Not if they made a better product, cured a disease, or helped defeat a national enemy. All they had to do was make their stock go up. Through the 1960s and 1970s, average CEO compensation in America per dollar of corporate earnings had gone down 33 percent as companies became more efficient at making money. But now there was a (dubious) reason for compensation to go up, up, up, which it has done consistently for 40+ years, until now when we think this is the way the corporate world is supposed to work—even its raison d’etre.
But in that same time real corporate performance has gone down. The average rate of return on invested capital for public companies in the United States is a quarter of what it was in 1965. Sure, productivity has gone up, but that can be done through automation or by beating more work out of employees (more on that later). Jensen and Meckling created the very problem they purported to solve—a problem that really hadn’t existed in the first place.