Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

dino001

driver100 said:

"But J.D. Power's 2018 dependability rankings, which are more similar to the study Chevy commissioned for its reliability ad in that it looks at 2015 model year vehicles, ranked Chevrolet above Toyota, Honda and Ford"
Once again....why 2015?.

There are issues with CR studies, mostly based on self-selecting sample. However, it's often mitigated by sample size, CR also doesn't publish results of too small samples. On the other hand, the biggest problems with JD Power's study is its indiscriminate treatment of small and large problems (each get weight of one) and classification of design shortcomings (as subjectively reported by the consumers) as "reliability/dependability problems". You don't like the way something works, even if it works as designed, they classify it as a dependability/reliability problem. Your engine blew up, it's the same problem as a loose screw in a visor. Those are especially true in "new vehicle" surveys, but dependability also has issues. First, why just three years? That's warranty period. Why not five or eight years? CR shows data for all years available and circles get darker as the age progresses, as they should.

My other big issue with JD Power surveys is they are often pretending to do a bigger job than they actually do. I remember long time ago checking out 2005 Subaru Legacy - they let you choose trim line, all the way to everything and then you get a report. So I chose GT trim, no longer offered today, back then it was one of the fastest midsize sedans in its price range, as the engine was a slightly detuned Sti power unit. It was also quite well equipped standard. However, the pictographs on the report indicated sub par acceleration and rather stingy equipment, which obviously was taken from the lower trim. They clearly didn't have valid data for GT trim, yet the system suggested that they did. Made me question the whole thing altogether. How many other models they got wrong, especially in their less popular (usually more expensive) trims? At that point the value of such survey was extremely limited, if not border line worthless if you didn't look into base champagne Camry, or Accord LX.

driver100

A survey such as JD Powers is good in a basic way. If Toyota is always at the top of the list by a wide margin, and Rover or Fiat are at the bottom continuously.....that probably tells you something.

It is a tool for comparing cars, but, use it carefully.

berri

So far I’ve had very good luck with both the Encore and the Volt, my first two GM cars ever.

GM does seem to be doing well with electric. Isn't the Encore a Korean vehicle? So it may not be a good indicator of GM USA.

berri

As they say Driver, "the trend is your friend" !

dino001

henryn said:

This is an excellent read, by one of my favorite writers:

https://www.cringely.com/2018/02/26/win-lose-wall-street-screwed-middle-class/

Lawyers arguing in court present legal theories—their ideas of how the world and the law intersect, and why this should mean their client is right and the other side is wrong. Proof of one legal theory over another comes in the form of a verdict or court decision. As a culture we have many theories about institutions and behaviors that aren’t so clear-cut in their validity tests (no courtroom, no jury) yet we cling to these theories to feel better about the ways we have chosen to live our lives. In American business, especially, one key theory is that the purpose of corporate enterprise is to “maximize shareholder value.” Some take this even further and claim that such value maximization is the only reason a corporation exists. Watch CNBC or Fox Business News long enough and you’ll begin to believe this is God’s truth, but it’s not. It’s just a theory.

As a shareholder of many publicly trading companies, every time I hear "maximizing shareholder value" I want to sell immediately. It's almost always code for "let's raid the treasury, screw employees, customers, cheat on taxes, report great next quarter and then drop the corps". Idiot fellow shareholders eat it like candy, many thinking they'll know when to get out, or worse, some think Icahn, or other "prophets" will actually fix the company. Carl Icahs doesn't give a diddly squat about the business, all he wants is to strip any asset the company can shed and leave the corps before anybody realizes what actually happen.

Those "raiders" had their use in the past. Companies were fat and lazy in 60s and 70s, enriching the executives, giving safety to employees, especially their union bosses, but not much in exchange to the shareholders. The "raiders" instilled some "fear of God" into those managements and made people ask if third corporate jet is the right type of investment. But they overstayed their welcome, in my opinion. Today they are often taking healthy and thriving businesses and make them very vulnerable to outside conditions by loading up large debt in "shareholder value extraction" process. It's no longer about 10-year plan, not even 5-years, sometimes 3 years is way too long. All they want is a payout in next three quarters and move on to the next victim. That's not real shareholder value, it's a raid.

cdnpinhead

Honeywell is an excellent example. GE showed them the way.

xwesx

driver100 said:

Once again....why 2015?

It takes a while for vehicles to "show their colors" in terms of long-term reliability, so the standard is to look at the three-year-old models as the point of reference. IIRC, there are additional rankings for things like "initial quality," etc., which look at those early returns to the dealership for (usually) fit and finish issues, infotainment quirks, etc.

xwesx

oldfarmer50 said:

To me anything built in this century is new.

I can't believe I missed this gem the first time through!

I agree! I find it a little shocking every time I remind myself that we're on the twentieth year of century already.

Mr_Shiftright

berri said:

So far I’ve had very good luck with both the Encore and the Volt, my first two GM cars ever.

GM does seem to be doing well with electric. Isn't the Encore a Korean vehicle? So it may not be a good indicator of GM USA.

Chevy Bolt was a good first effort by GM for a full EV. It doesn't have the tech of the Tesla 3 but it's considerably cheaper.

dino001

xwesx said:

It takes a while for vehicles to "show their colors" in terms of long-term reliability, so the standard is to look at the three-year-old models as the point of reference. IIRC, there are additional rankings for things like "initial quality," etc., which look at those early returns to the dealership for (usually) fit and finish issues, infotainment quirks, etc.

It also reports customer dislikes as "quality problems". You don't like the position of the button for mirror adjustment - quality problem. Things that could be objectively or subjectively classified as design issues (flaws) are classified as quality problems in that survey.

I don't have a problem with choosing 3-years as one of the thresholds. Five would be better, but that is more useful to used car market, not new car marketing.

BTW, who pays for JD Power's work? I know CR is sustained by its subscribers/members. They don't allow for use of their survey results in any commercial advertising.

dino001

cdnpinhead said:

Honeywell is an excellent example. GE showed them the way.

Can you elaborate?

houdini2

stickguy said:

not a bad deal though, if they are just going with the factory schedule. That would be the maintenance minder, which hardly calls for anything. basically bring it in every 7-10,000 miles for an oil change and rotation, and a few extras (plugs, filters) in the 5 year/100K range, and good to go.

Lifetime warranties have many different meanings. Better read the fine print !!

xwesx

dino001 said:

It also reports customer dislikes as "quality problems". You don't like the position of the button for mirror adjustment - quality problem. Things that could be objectively or subjectively classified as design issues (flaws) are classified as quality problems in that survey.

I don't have a problem with choosing 3-years as one of the threshold. Five would be better, but that is more useful to used car market, not new car marketing.

BTW, who pays for JD Power's work? I know CR is sustained by its subscribers/members. They don't allow for use of their survey results in any commercial advertising.

Yeah, that makes it much less valuable! Likes/dislikes are not even close to a quality issue. Squeaks/rattles? I can see that as being a legitimate concern. I agree on the five-year mark, but, as we know here, many owners don't keep vehicles from new that long, and it would take so long to publish results that it may not be a reasonable reflection (or at least less reasonable) of what that group is producing now.

JD Powers: It seems like they have some sort of paying clients, but I did not take the time to look how this works precisely. My guess is that it has something to do with being able to use survey results / awards info in targeted advertising. Also, web ad revenue (looks like a primary source).

ab348

laurasdada said:

The rock star is Ernie Boch, Jr. Ernie Boch passed away a few years back.

May be visiting a few Boch dealers this weekend with the GF (unlikely I'll get her to Ferrari!), time to replace the totaled 328xi. Poor Bimmer, it didn't deserve such an early demise.

Junior is the fellow to whom I was referring, since he runs the show now. And since he's the only one of the two still breathing.

imidazol97

driver100 said:

Excellent brief article about why the Chevy Reliability ads are not very reliable.

WHY THE CHEVY RELIABILITY AD DOESN'T AMOUNT TO MUCH and is very - defensive!

Sounds like one of the places with a long term anti GM bias. Did you find anything from the truth about cars guy who hates GM?

driver100

JD Power sells the information they collect. Another reason I don't like doing their survey....work for them for nothing!

ab348

The survey is probably as good as any other survey of its type. Any survey is pretty easy to pick apart if you have an axe to grind, or if you're writing an opinion piece, which most Jalopnik stuff is these days. Most auto writers these days are members of Civic Nation (or at least it seems so), which makes it difficult to get unbiased reporting on some brands.

driver100

xwesx said:

driver100 said:

Once again....why 2015?

It takes a while for vehicles to "show their colors" in terms of long-term reliability, so the standard is to look at the three-year-old models as the point of reference. IIRC, there are additional rankings for things like "initial quality," etc., which look at those early returns to the dealership for (usually) fit and finish issues, infotainment quirks, etc.

3 years is a fair time to check for reliability......but, in the case of the GM reliability ad, it happens to be one year that just happened to work for that "particular" survey. Why not show reliability for every year over the last 5 years instead of pulling a year out of a hat...the one year that makes your point.

Would you use that in an argument? I am the best pickleball player in my league. I happened to win the championship game in 2008, lost badly every other year...but 10 years ago is a good guide.(that is just an example by the way).

Mr_Shiftright

Well I'll believe it when I see all the Chevy dealers with rows of used Toyotas on their used car lots.

xwesx

driver100 said:

3 years is a fair time to check for reliability......but, in the case of the GM reliability ad, it happens to be one year that just happened to work for that "particular" survey. Why not show reliability for every year over the last 5 years instead of pulling a year out of a hat...the one year that makes your point.

Would you use that in an argument? I am the best pickleball player in my league. I happened to win the championship game in 2008, lost badly every other year...but 10 years ago is a good guide.(that is just an example by the way).

Totally agree. I was just thinking about it from the most recent year (e.g., 2018 ads, 2015 MY for vehicles). I'm a big fan of historical data and trends. In fact, this may work to GM's favor in such a campaign, as I strongly suspect that their "reliability" is improving for the preceding five years from 2011 through 2015 (and likely further still, if we wanted to go back). So, projecting such trends outward, they might be able to sell the idea that current 2019 MY vehicles are even more reliable than the base year of 2015.

dino001

Void

dino001

This is straight from JD Power website.



Seems like various revenue sources, but "Automotive Industry and OEM" "Automotive Retail", "Automotive Media @ Marketing" makes them insiders to the industry and their paychecks are ultimately signed by the car companies and perhaps dealers. Their client is not Joe Schmo going online, their clients are GM, Honda, BMW et al. They obviously want real data, but they also want to be able to market it in most favorable form to themselves. I would not be surprised if top scorers were largest clients of JD Power's - that's not necessarily an automatic indictment, but it certainly can create a long-term dependency that may be hard to break.

Kind of like credit rating agencies, good as long everything is running as expected. In their case it was the bankers and debt issuers who paid for the rating, not the debt purchasers. We all know how that ended. When bottom falls out on AAA Collaterized Debt Obligations based on 600- credit scores and 0% down mortgages, they're nowhere to be found to face up.

dino001

imidazol97 said:

driver100 said:

Excellent brief article about why the Chevy Reliability ads are not very reliable.

WHY THE CHEVY RELIABILITY AD DOESN'T AMOUNT TO MUCH and is very - defensive!

Sounds like one of the places with a long term anti GM bias. Did you find anything from the truth about cars guy who hates GM?

Here we go again - obvious conspiracy. It just can't be otherwise, can it?

laurasdada

I've owned Jags for the past 7.5 years, overall very reliable. No issues with the '09 XK. One rattle in the '13 XF, solved by closing the sunroof visor. One show stopper, with no warning the Keyless Vehicle Module quit. Dead cat. Towed, loaner car and fixed under warranty, on to life #2.

Likely, CR and JDP would call me an anomaly.

But, I'm just one point of light in a thousand.

dino001

I think the fact that all those "bestest" claims in all commercials (not just GM's) are usually accompanied with small-print, beige-on-white, 5-second long you-can't-read-anything disclaimers, says something about their value. Also, when asked JD Power would repeatedly refuse to give specific account for methodology, or data processing, also says a lot. There is no perfect source, but it seems some sources have much less transparency than others. "Trust us, it's good. Why? Because we say so. We are the best, we just told you."

driver100

I wonder if GGs Cadillac problem counts as "one issue"?

dino001

driver100 said:

I wonder if GGs Cadillac problem counts as "one issue"?

One per Cadillac, I guess. He had several, including his mother's.

imidazol97

dino001 said:

imidazol97 said:

driver100 said:

Excellent brief article about why the Chevy Reliability ads are not very reliable.

WHY THE CHEVY RELIABILITY AD DOESN'T AMOUNT TO MUCH and is very - defensive!

Sounds like one of the places with a long term anti GM bias. Did you find anything from the truth about cars guy who hates GM?

Here we go again - obvious conspiracy. It just can't be otherwise, can it?

Since you brought up "conspiracy," the Truth About Cars guy was a rabid GM critic. Am I wrong on that?
And has Jalopnik been open to the idea that GM has improved from some bad exemplars of the past? Or not.

There are some places that continue to be the resistance to admitting that things have changed. Hopefully the public will begin to see that things are much better than 10 years ago or more in GM's auto business. But often, the reputation of some brands lives on and on despite various problems with some of their vehicles--those same problems that most vehicles have somewhere in their record. So how does one change the reputation image in people's minds? There has to be information put out that gives a credible and memorable point of view for the public.

As to me, I find my dealerships have been the most important value factor in my cars. I have a Malibu, that has had NO mechanical problems in 5 years. I have not had a sunroof that broke, e.g.. I have not had a water pump fail.

The dealer was helpful in pointing out my tires are almost 5 years old and have some road force unevenness. They suggested planning to replace them because they are aging. The Goodyear Eagle LS2 tires did not have a good rep with some on the forum when the car came with them. I suspect it's because they develop road force variation with age. The tires aren't GM's fault.

Nobody mentioned "conspiracy." I am mentioning continued old, out-dated ideas in folks' minds.

graphicguy

dino001 said:

driver100 said:

I wonder if GGs Cadillac problem counts as "one issue"?

One per Cadillac, I guess. He had several, including his mother's.

Yeah...our family did not have much luck with the Cadillac brand.

Not sure how JD Power or CR would have classified our issues with our cars.

driver100

One issue...car is a write off!

driver100

Imid, I don't doubt that GM and at least Ford have all improved significantly as far as reliability. Chrysler seems to be struggling with quality. Buick is a leader for dependability over the last few years, Any reports I read say GM is right on the heels of the most reliable car makers, usually Toyota and Lexus. Let's give them some well deserved credit for that.

I personally found the ad deceptive and I know what they were trying to do, but, it doesn't pass the smell test. Sell the car on it's merits, sell it on the fact it is a dependable car...probably better than average, but, don't tell me it is more reliable than a Toyota because it came out on top in one (1) dubious survey...it is insulting to my intelligence. The ad actually made me try to pick out what the con was....since I always see Toyota and Lexus at the top of any reliability list.

dino001

I get annoyed by advertising by all car companies. They are all trying to pull the wool over your head, whether it's pricing, quality claims, or other things. Find convenient metric that is difficult to understand, or replicate and run the ad that something is "faster" than this, or "more reliable" than that. I remember long time ago seeing an ad (GM coincidentally) that claims Cadillac Seville was more agile than BMW 5, I think. They had some slalom time quoted with a glaring asterisk saying Cadillac used high performance tires and sports suspension package and BMW was standard suspension and all-season tires. Don't remember if they also mixed up engines (V6 by BMW vs. V8 by Caddy), doesn't really matter. Now that I think, there was one more, also by GM also run long time ago, comparing V6 engine Pontiac G6 (remember those?) with four-cylinder Nissan Altima and screaming with pride that Pontiac was quicker. I recall other commercials mostly annoying me because their deceptive "starting at" pricing that does not include destination charge, which is mandatory everywhere in the country, some states like Alaska or Hawaii need to pay more than the rest of us, yet it seems manufacturers "forget" that and act like it's optional and you could actually buy a car at that "starting" price, if it was manufactured. All are guilty of that - BMW, Toyota, Audi, Honda, domestics. However, the "funny" comparisons seem to be GM’s domain. Or perhaps it's my anti-GM bias at work... If anybody can show me a fishy comparison ad made by others in last 5 years, I would be obliged.

imidazol97

driver100 said:

Imid, I don't doubt that GM and at least Ford have all improved significantly as far as reliability. Chrysler seems to be struggling with quality. Buick is a leader for dependability over the last few years, Any reports I read say GM is right on the heels of the most reliable car makers, usually Toyota and Lexus. Let's give them some well deserved credit for that.

I personally found the ad deceptive and I know what they were trying to do, but, it doesn't pass the smell test. Sell the car on it's merits, sell it on the fact it is a dependable car...probably better than average, but, don't tell me it is more reliable than a Toyota because it came out on top in one (1) dubious survey...it is insulting to my intelligence. The ad actually made me try to pick out what the con was....since I always see Toyota and Lexus at the top of any reliability list.

Don't they say in the ad that it was in a nationawide survey? "A" survey.

I certainly wouldn't call it dubious because it was matched by JDPowers. I am not sure why some think JDP was bought in some way; JDP does surveys and the companies doing well buy the rights to use the JDP symbol in their ads. If one company doesn't come out well enough in the study, a competitor who did well will pay for the JDP bragging rights.

I recall ads even including cell services showing their JDP awards. I have said it many times, so I'll be brief (something I learned from jmonroe, but not so much from monroe1) and CR's survey is not a random survey in any way, shape or form. While they may glean info from what they think and from the survey and put the two together, that does not scientific data make.

BTW someone questioned JDPower's way of making money. How does CR make money? Certainly not from selling 1 discounted subscription per library branch where many people go to read it. Or they read it online at a few library services. How does CR make money? When was the last time you saw someone buy a copy of Consumer Reports in a bookstore and walk out with it? From the magazine rack at the local Kroger?

Notice GM did not say anything about a 3-year survey for the 14 model year. They said it was the 15 model year. Based on the quality of our Malibu, I'd have to agree. I haven't had any problems. I'm not overlooking things like some foreign car regular model owners did where they had tranmission problems or other major things and because it was covered under warranty they owners say they had no problems. I did have a software update for the computer. And I've mentioned the tires from Goodyear that are getting a little out of round but still within tolerance--I'm a Michelin fan. I believe they also make Pirelli and B F Goodrich.

I compare this ad series, which has ended for GM, to the football rivalry with Clemson Tide having washed over Alabama. After years of thinking Alabama is the big dog, there are some equals.

oldfarmer50

driver100 said:

xwesx said:

driver100 said:

Went to lunch with friends. They have a 2014 Dodge Caravan that has 70k miles on it. Needed some repairs, the main one was the media center including back up camera, gps, radio etc. stopped working....total repair bill was $3400. While at the dealer they decided to buy a new Pacifica which they pick up today. They were thinking of trading in the van a few months ago...now they wish they did. They want a new one with a warranty. They have owned several Chrysler vans before, with no major problems.

I think considering the repair bill, I would have looked into getting an Odyssey this time around.

Sounds like they should have bought the new vehicle *before* repairing the old one instead of immediately after (or during?). Are they keeping it?

They took the old van in and while the repairs were being done they checked out a new Pacifica and decided they don't know what will go next on the old van....decided they want a new van with a warranty. I get the impression they have the money and don't mind spending it to get a new van...they are sorry they didn't do it before this last repair.

A van with 70k miles would be gone off their lawn before the engine cooled. High demand from Uber drivers.

berri

I take stats and the like in ads with great skepticism given the games that can be played. As for Chevy having to pull the ad, I guess I could see it two ways: 1) Chevy got the point out or 2) the public focuses on it being pulled reducing Chevy/GM credibility. Time may tell which ways it worked.

Actually, I liked Shifty's suggestion that you ought to see which car lots have the most competitors cars on them. yeah, I know - dealers can get them from wholesale auctions as well as trade ins.

explorerx4

Considering how many cars are leased, someone trading in one brand to buy another isn't going to be a big trend.

oldfarmer50

berri said:

So far I’ve had very good luck with both the Encore and the Volt, my first two GM cars ever.

GM does seem to be doing well with electric. Isn't the Encore a Korean vehicle? So it may not be a good indicator of GM USA.

My only vehicle with over 100k miles is a GM product and it’s performed pretty well so far. The few defects have been cheap fixes. Not bad for an old beater.

cdnpinhead

dino001 said:

cdnpinhead said:

Honeywell is an excellent example. GE showed them the way.

Can you elaborate?

Over the past 15 years, at an accelerating rate, the portion of Honeywell I knew best (38 years continuous, 50+ from first hire) has made decisions that fly in the face of the employee and customer satisfaction culture that had existed for decades, all in the pursuit of "shareholder value." It became particularly acute a little over three years ago, at which time changes were made that caused dozens of very experienced people to retire, and a number of others were laid off or quit outright. The work-from-home policy was eliminated, and the 401K company match went from contributions at every pay period to being paid annually for people employed in mid-December -- if you left prior to that time, no match for you. Offshoring has become a way of life, and all of this was done in the name of keeping the stock price up, but many of us feel that the house of cards is on shaky ground. Check the progress of GE stock over the past 10-15 years, where many of the same policies have been instituted. The beancounters are in charge.

berri

Didn't IBM stop a lot of work from home too? I wonder if it is a way to get people to quit thereby avoiding severance?

berri

of50 - I think cars are fairly close these days, many times with common parts vendors. It is the new technology they are all introducing that is creating some issues, maybe because they are forcing it out too quickly. Not just Detroit by any means. The Honda CRV seems to have some teething issues with their new direct ignition turbo engine, Toyota has some reports of premature issues with Highlander 's latest multi speed transmissions...

Having owned both domestic and Asian, I think the one area where Detroit could improve is standing behind major product issues for a period outside of warranty. In that area for example, Honda shines.

abacomike

Dropped off the S450 early this morning.  They gave me a 2018 E300 to drive.  It is fairly well equipped but that 4 cylinder engine is so underpowered.  Besides, the driver’s seat is so uncomfortable my back started to bother me today.  There is no way I could get an E Class, even with a V6.  I loved my E Class cars before they restyled and re-engineered it a couple of years ago.  But I do have to admit I have been spoiled these past 14-1/2 months with the S450.

My service rep called me late this afternoon with the bad news.  They could not fix the sunroof so they ordered parts from Orlando.  Parts should be in tomorrow morning and they are going to try to get the car back to me late tomorrow afternoon.  If not, I have to wait until Monday afternoon.  It seems the track was damaged and one of the cables snapped on the right side.  They told me they have never seen a problem like this on an S450 or S560 - especially on a car with 10,040 miles on it.

So, I have my fingers crossed. 

ab348

Looks like the Infiniti QX30 is going, going, gone real soon now.

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2019/01/qx-gone-infiniti-brass-suggests-qx30-headed-to-the-bin/

stickguy

I found it to be too cramped up front. And not all that roomy in the back end.

Mr_Shiftright

explorerx4 said:

Considering how many cars are leased, someone trading in one brand to buy another isn't going to be a big trend.

Still, it is interesting to speculate. I'm going to count brands at the local Chevy dealer's used car lot, just to see what the mix is. He's probably got 100 cars in there.

dino001

cdnpinhead said:

dino001 said:

cdnpinhead said:

Honeywell is an excellent example. GE showed them the way.

Can you elaborate?

Over the past 15 years, at an accelerating rate, the portion of Honeywell I knew best (38 years continuous, 50+ from first hire) has made decisions that fly in the face of the employee and customer satisfaction culture that had existed for decades, all in the pursuit of "shareholder value." It became particularly acute a little over three years ago, at which time changes were made that caused dozens of very experienced people to retire, and a number of others were laid off or quit outright. The work-from-home policy was eliminated, and the 401K company match went from contributions at every pay period to being paid annually for people employed in mid-December -- if you left prior to that time, no match for you. Offshoring has become a way of life, and all of this was done in the name of keeping the stock price up, but many of us feel that the house of cards is on shaky ground. Check the progress of GE stock over the past 10-15 years, where many of the same policies have been instituted. The beancounters are in charge.

Thank you for the explanation. Honeywell is my largest holding, it was really good to me in last 7 years, so I definitely want to know if something is rotting. Which part of business are you working for? They recently spun off residential and car suppply business and I sold those right away, but their aviation business looks good so far. 401k match thing became very common in publicly traded companies, so all things equal probably wouldn’t move the needle on its own, but retiring/leaving senior personnel is the thing that can seriously cripple a company, usually there is a significant delay, but it can become sudden and definitely not telegraphed. GE may be exaggerration, you need cashflow and debt deterioration for that, but it can happen, as evident im GE’s case. Usually it’s due to gross misalocation of capital, like bad acquisitions, unrecognized liabilities, poorly timed massive buybacks, so far not apparent in Honeywell’s case. It takes more than a few unhappy employees, but it can certainly start as such, that’s why I’m asking.
So I gather you don’t care much for Cote, the hero of Wall Street. Some people suggested he could even become a candidate for the Candidate. Adamczyk started with spinoffs, which really surprised me . I got concerned about them right away, especially when I saw their debt level (Garrett Motion was just atrocious). Looks to me like an attempt to disproportionately offload the liabilities to the unaware and give the main company a new lease for extra couple of years. Resideo (second spinoff, housing technologies) has at least more stable cash flows, but still both companies are cyclical and debt was too high. I sold in weeks, even if those were small dollar values.

explorerx4

@Mr_Shiftright.
Here in CT most of the dealers are relatively small.
I'm always amazed when I am in the Midwest how many vehicles dealers have on their lots.
Probably related to population and available real estate.

Mr_Shiftright

I see on their website that the Chevy/GMC dealer has 10 used Toyotas in 2 locations---interestingly, they are mostly trucks. I guess that makes sense in a way. Trucks are one area where GM can compete quite well with Toyota. The few that aren't pickups are old Toyotas. (5 years or so).

driver100

imidazol97 said:

driver100 said:

Imid, I don't doubt that GM and at least Ford have all improved significantly as far as reliability. Chrysler seems to be struggling with quality. Buick is a leader for dependability over the last few years, Any reports I read say GM is right on the heels of the most reliable car makers, usually Toyota and Lexus. Let's give them some well deserved credit for that.

I personally found the ad deceptive and I know what they were trying to do, but, it doesn't pass the smell test. Sell the car on it's merits, sell it on the fact it is a dependable car...probably better than average, but, don't tell me it is more reliable than a Toyota because it came out on top in one (1) dubious survey...it is insulting to my intelligence. The ad actually made me try to pick out what the con was....since I always see Toyota and Lexus at the top of any reliability list.

Don't they say in the ad that it was in a nationawide survey? "A" survey.

I certainly wouldn't call it dubious because it was matched by JDPowers. I am not sure why some think JDP was bought in some way; JDP does surveys and the companies doing well buy the rights to use the JDP symbol in their ads. If one company doesn't come out well enough in the study, a competitor who did well will pay for the JDP bragging rights.
.

I compare this ad series, which has ended for GM, to the football rivalry with Clemson Tide having washed over Alabama. After years of thinking Alabama is the big dog, there are some equals.

1) They do say it was a nationwide survey......but, no details. How many miles did the Chev owners do compared to other makes, how expensive were the parts broken, like I say, maybe Chev owners are older and more forgetful and a big one mentioned in the article I linked....how many of the other cars were presented, if say 10000 Chevs and 100 Toyotas the "survey" can get out of kilter as a few cars represent a lot more.

2)JD Powers gets it's income from selling information to companies like GM. They aren't independent, so they could want to please GM. In fact, they could have sold this information to GM to use in an ad.

The comparison between the CT and Alabama is interesting and probably valid.

The ad itself......I am skeptical of most ads that try to make a case....just give me the facts. This one is very questionable, and interesting that GM is pulling it so quickly, it could do more damage than good.

driver100

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

xwesx said:

driver100 said:

Went to lunch with friends. They have a 2014 Dodge Caravan that has 70k miles on it. Needed some repairs, the main one was the media center including back up camera, gps, radio etc. stopped working....total repair bill was $3400. While at the dealer they decided to buy a new Pacifica which they pick up today. They were thinking of trading in the van a few months ago...now they wish they did. They want a new one with a warranty. They have owned several Chrysler vans before, with no major problems.

I think considering the repair bill, I would have looked into getting an Odyssey this time around.

Sounds like they should have bought the new vehicle *before* repairing the old one instead of immediately after (or during?). Are they keeping it?

They took the old van in and while the repairs were being done they checked out a new Pacifica and decided they don't know what will go next on the old van....decided they want a new van with a warranty. I get the impression they have the money and don't mind spending it to get a new van...they are sorry they didn't do it before this last repair.

A van with 70k miles would be gone off their lawn before the engine cooled. High demand from Uber drivers.

Good point. These people for a variety of reasons aren't going to do that. They don't want to be out $3600, but, they can take the loss.......they just want to move forward.

driver100

oldfarmer50 said:

berri said:

So far I’ve had very good luck with both the Encore and the Volt, my first two GM cars ever.

GM does seem to be doing well with electric. Isn't the Encore a Korean vehicle? So it may not be a good indicator of GM USA.

My only vehicle with over 100k miles is a GM product and it’s performed pretty well so far. The few defects have been cheap fixes. Not bad for an old beater.

Maybe GM should do an ad with you as it's main star. Yep, no one makes a better hooptie than GM, I got over 100000 miles out of one of them, works out to about $100 bucks a year to run my old Caddie.