Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

oldfarmer50

explorerx4 said:

@oldfarmer50,
I'd probably replace it with another Fusion, 2019 Sport, last year for that model.

If the details had worked out I might have bought a Fusion instead of a Soul. Much nicer car.

sda

oldfarmer50 said:

sda said:

I parked next to this clean 89 Caprice.  Had a nice shine, all complete except two plastic bumper fillers and strip.  Interior very nice and rare around here, the dash looked new and free of cracks.  For $3k, it looks like a decent buy.

How many miles?

The odometer showed 20563, which I would guess 120k. The interior looked new though the headliner was starting to separate in places, but not badly. I did miss the dented lower doors on the right side and slightly tweaked front bumper. It was a quick look as I had an appointment to have my hair cut and was running late. No matter, I still waited 20 minutes. You can see my Accord parked next to it.

jmonroe1

oldfarmer50 said:

sda said:

I parked next to this clean 89 Caprice.  Had a nice shine, all complete except two plastic bumper fillers and strip.  Interior very nice and rare around here, the dash looked new and free of cracks.  For $3k, it looks like a decent buy.

How many miles?

Do you want everything? Having a car with real bumpers alone is worth 3 grand.

jmonroe

driver100

graphicguy

Tesla....too many “mainstream” car companies have too large of an investment to let Tesla go out of business. I think Tesla will end up partnering with one of the biggies. Their tech is so far ahead of any of the other companies for them to not want it.

@driver100 ....several of my colleagues who work in our Mississauga office actually commute from the U.S. because of the housing situation in and around Toronto.

driver100

GG, it would be a lot cheaper to have a home in say Buffalo or Niagara Falls N.Y. and to commute to Mississauga/Toronto when necessary.

Tesla will probably go the way of Blackberry, sell the technology and come up with a Plan B to survive.

sampurna

when is the best time to lease car? memorial day vs black friday?

qbrozen

sampurna said:

when is the best time to lease car? memorial day vs black friday?

When the dealer is desperate to move an aged unit and would get a big bonus for doing so. Holidays are irrelevant.

stickguy

when you need a car. There are always lease deals going.

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

GG, it would be a lot cheaper to have a home in say Buffalo or Niagara Falls N.Y. and to commute to Mississauga/Toronto when necessary. Tesla will probably go the way of Blackberry, sell the technology and come up with a Plan B to survive.

That would be a quagmire, boarder crossing twice a day, what country are you a citizen of and what about tax implications?

suydam

Interesting that the Tesla 3 was the third best selling vehicle in California last quarter. Just sayin.

qbrozen

suydam said:

Interesting that the Tesla 3 was the third best selling vehicle in California last quarter. Just sayin.

Source?

tifighter

qbrozen said:

suydam said:

Interesting that the Tesla 3 was the third best selling vehicle in California last quarter. Just sayin.

Source?

I'm guessing he is referring to this-

stickguy

ah, so excluding trucks and SUVs. so probably what, really 18th?

suydam

Sorry I thought I put that in. You can find the data lots of places but here’s one:
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/story/2019-05-21/california-car-sales-slow-down-in-the-first-quarter

dino001

stickguy said:

ah, so excluding trucks and SUVs. so probably what, really 18th?

This was my first thought, too, but chart below says otherwise. I am surprised seeing that. The source is a page with an agenda, but if they aren't lying then California is a foreign country to many other places in the US.

Mr_Shiftright

Well the Tesla factory is in CA, so you don't have to wait weeks (or months) to get your Model 3 + you get a $2,500 California rebate. You also have lots of superchargers and some service centers, and a mild climate. It's really the best place to own a Tesla.

PF_Flyer

Also, is CA a bit more car-prone than pickup/SUV? Certainly moreso than someplace like Pennsylvania or Wyoming I would imagine

imidazol97

I just watched a segment on one of the business channels about Tesla. Consumer Reports, of all people, can't recommend them. Especially with the physical problems that are happening and he listed off several including broken glass. But the topic was the automated driving features were something CR didn't like.

Yesterday I read an article that mentioned a second case where the driver was decapitated seconds after turning the automatic driving feature and the ran under a semi trailer.

Add the fires that hit the news about Teslas and ...

I started paying attention a few weeks back when Musk was selling some of his stock or the company was in order to raise money to make the payment on the bonds that was coming due. Cash flow.

dino001

imidazol97 said:

I just watched a segment on one of the business channels about Tesla. Consumer Reports, of all people, can't recommend them. Especially with the physical problems that are happening and he listed off several including broken glass. But the topic was the automated driving features were something CR didn't like.

Yesterday I read an article that mentioned a second case where the driver was decapitated seconds after turning the automatic driving feature and the ran under a semi trailer.

Add the fires that hit the news about Teslas and ...

I started paying attention a few weeks back when Musk was selling some of his stock or the company was in order to raise money to make the payment on the bonds that was coming due. Cash flow.

Hell froze solid - you're using CR as an authority. What's next? Pigs flying?

houdini2

fintail said:

If one likes insane out of control healthcare (and housing, and transportation, etc) costs and a litany of dumb public works projects that benefit a small few, move to the Seattle metro.

Funny thing is, it is still better than many other places, even with its foibles and failings. Many must agree, as population continues to expand with no end in sight. At least it is kind of part of the first world, unlike large swaths of the nation.

I also find it amusing that many who whine about "socialism" as some kind of weird pejorative (yet they can't define it) likely benefit from both lucky birth timing and fat publicly funded entitlement bennies.

Working hard and investing wisely for 30 or 40 years has nothing to do with it ?

dino001

houdini2 said:

fintail said:

If one likes insane out of control healthcare (and housing, and transportation, etc) costs and a litany of dumb public works projects that benefit a small few, move to the Seattle metro.

Funny thing is, it is still better than many other places, even with its foibles and failings. Many must agree, as population continues to expand with no end in sight. At least it is kind of part of the first world, unlike large swaths of the nation.

I also find it amusing that many who whine about "socialism" as some kind of weird pejorative (yet they can't define it) likely benefit from both lucky birth timing and fat publicly funded entitlement bennies.

Working hard and investing wisely for 30 or 40 years has nothing to do with it ?

You didn't build that!

ruking1

This whole EV thing is more about the USA government: Afghanistan war, & wars to come, (rare earth metals-China mining contracts) legislations, IRS special rulings, tax credits, write offs, etc, etc. Musk is (merely) playing his part. There are quite a few states that have legalized wacky too backy. So a billionaire is demonstrating its place in society. How is that working out? 😱

imidazol97

dino001 said:

Hell froze solid - you're using CR as an authority. What's next? Pigs flying?

Amazing, isn't it. Yada Yada.
This time they're using facts. Indeed, they used to recommend Tesla, but they're swung the other direction
based on real facts.

dino001

fintail said:

If one likes insane out of control healthcare (and housing, and transportation, etc) costs and a litany of dumb public works projects that benefit a small few, move to the Seattle metro.

Funny thing is, it is still better than many other places, even with its foibles and failings. Many must agree, as population continues to expand with no end in sight. At least it is kind of part of the first world, unlike large swaths of the nation.

I also find it amusing that many who whine about "socialism" as some kind of weird pejorative (yet they can't define it) likely benefit from both lucky birth timing and fat publicly funded entitlement bennies.

Oh, I can speak with some authority about socialism. Took 19 years out of my young life. I literally graduated from high school in a communist-party ruled country and started my college in economy that started its market transformation. As a kid (about 10-12 y.o.) I spent some quality time in daily lines for butter (one time I spent two hours just to walk away with an equivalent of one stick). I also remember my mother's troubles in getting some luxuries, such as toilet paper, underwear, shoes, notebook paper. We were still extremely fortunate, as my grandmother was a retired meat factory worker, so we had plenty of meat and lunch cold cuts in our house, except only the worst 1980-81 winter, when I brought from school a 10 pound bag of corn flour that I won in a lottery from generous American people food gifts. BTW, my mom had no idea how to use it, as Polish kitchen did not use corn flour for anything. I think even then we were a bit better off than poor people of Venezuela are today as there was no general shortage of bread.

I also remember vividly the oppression of the new system after the transformation began. As a 19-year old freshman I saw for the first time a Post-It note and a few mind blowing office supply inventions, like spiral-bound report done by a showoff colleague of mine, or found that a xerox machine can make a copy of somebody's notes. Pretty shocking experiences. Life got even more difficult when couple of years later I entered a store wanting to buy some candy and after I saw a stand with 20+ varieties, I walked away overwhelmed with choice. Those true horrors of capitalist economy. Yes, socialism was truly fun.

driver100

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

GG, it would be a lot cheaper to have a home in say Buffalo or Niagara Falls N.Y. and to commute to Mississauga/Toronto when necessary.

Tesla will probably go the way of Blackberry, sell the technology and come up with a Plan B to survive.

That would be a quagmire, boarder crossing twice a day, what country are you a citizen of and what about tax implications?

Not for everyday. If you do go across regularly there are ways to get expedited through. If you go to head office a few times a month would be much better, homes in Buffalo or Niagara Falls NY are probably 1/3 the price.

When I was working for the publishing company I saw our customer in Buffalo once a quarter. Usually not too difficult on a week day during regular hours.

dino001

graphicguy said:

Tesla....too many “mainstream” car companies have too large of an investment to let Tesla go out of business. I think Tesla will end up partnering with one of the biggies. Their tech is so far ahead of any of the other companies for them to not want it.

I think Tesla going completely bust is a significant possibility, but by no means certainty. However, I think losing money in Tesla stock long term (5+ years) is a close certainty. The company may survive and even function, but its current equity valuation, even after recent drops, assumes "taking over the world", which it most likely will not. Musk is still "discovering" that running a factory that makes stuff out of raw materials is quite a bit harder (and more expensive) than running a few college kids writing software code.

driver100

dino001 said:

stickguy said:

ah, so excluding trucks and SUVs. so probably what, really 18th?

This was my first thought, too, but chart below says otherwise. I am surprised seeing that. The source is a page with an agenda, but if they aren't lying then California is a foreign country to many other places in the US.

On the 1st chart Prius is number 11, on the 2nd chart it is missing....that tells me something.
45% of all Tesla sales are in California....that tells me most of the country isn't that interested.
Possibly higher incomes, and lots of techies too....I think you have to really study those figures....oh yeh, probably a disproportionate share of tree huggers too.

driver100

dino001 said:

fintail said:

If one likes insane out of control healthcare (and housing, and transportation, etc) costs and a litany of dumb public works projects that benefit a small few, move to the Seattle metro.

Funny thing is, it is still better than many other places, even with its foibles and failings. Many must agree, as population continues to expand with no end in sight. At least it is kind of part of the first world, unlike large swaths of the nation.

I also find it amusing that many who whine about "socialism" as some kind of weird pejorative (yet they can't define it) likely benefit from both lucky birth timing and fat publicly funded entitlement bennies.

Oh, I can speak with some authority about socialism. Took 19 years out of my young life.

Thank you for sharing your real life experience Dino. I don't think there is one example of where socialism actually works. You might say Scandinavian countries, but even they are starting to realize it started off well during the years of abundance....but, slowly it is beginning to fail. Capitalism really works, it is far from perfect, but, it is the best there is.

Nice to have a safety net though too, unemployment insurance, pension plan, health coverage etc.

tifighter

driver100 said:

On the 1st chart Prius is number 11, on the 2nd chart it is missing....that tells me something.

Yes. It tells us that one is labeled Top Selling Cars, while the other is labeled Top Selling Vehicles.

driver100

tifighter said:

driver100 said:

On the 1st chart Prius is number 11, on the 2nd chart it is missing....that tells me something.

Yes. It tells us that one is labeled Top Selling Cars, while the other is labeled Top Selling Vehicles.

Overall sales (not just Calif) tells me something too;
Investors had been bracing for the red ink after Tesla said it sold 31 percent fewer vehicles in the first quarter than in the fourth quarter of 2018. The company said logistical challenges had hindered deliveries of the Model 3 sedan to Europe and China. A reduction in a federal tax benefit for Tesla’s buyers may have weighed on Model 3 sales in the United States.

*and I wonder, how many people had orders in and they all got filled in the first quarter?
I don't think those charts are as clean cut as they may seem.

henryn

We are definitely getting some confusion here between communism and socialism. "Socialism" is becoming a bit of a buzz word, getting thrown around right and left, often without a clear idea of the meaning.

Social Security and Medicare are immensely popular in this country, but by most definitions they are "socialist" programs. And I noted one mention, up above, of pension plans. Let us not forget, pension plans (which are rapidly disappearing) were a direct result of labor unions. And many people think labor unions are "socialist".

I think what we need is some balance. Capitalism, with some legal controls to prevent the return of robber barons. Let us not forget that the robber barons worked 12 year old kids 18 hours a day in their coal mines and steel mills.

Balance. Reasonable discourse.

Sandman6472

Lucky to get a pension as I worked for the postal system for 31 years. My s s is a small fraction due to that ridiculous Windfall Elimination Provision. Feel discriminated here as others get a pension and full s s. Was told I'll never get rich, but I'll make a living and was so true. Just hope I live for along long time!!

fintail

That can help, along with lucky birth timing, parental largesse, working in untouchable fields, et al

houdini2 said:

Working hard and investing wisely for 30 or 40 years has nothing to do with it ?

fintail

Yep, the horror of the eastern bloc was socialism (totalitarian, ruse of communism) in practice as much as at any time in history. However, "socialism" is what the populists scream at any mention of the progress connected to a social democracy, which isn't actual socialism (just as our oligocracy isn't really capitalism. Hence what I said, those who scream "socialism" in this day and age almost never know what the term actually means, it is a pejorative meant as a distraction from the trickle down fantasy that has led to our lovely widening socio-economic chasm.

Those who scream those distractions also often seem to have a history of a public sector meal ticket or bennies, funny how that works. Take your socialist government hands off my medicare!

dino001 said:

Oh, I can speak with some authority about socialism. Took 19 years out of my young life. I literally graduated from high school in a communist-party ruled country and started my college in economy that started its market transformation. As a kid (about 10-12 y.o.) I spent some quality time in daily lines for butter (one time I spent two hours just to walk away with an equivalent of one stick). I also remember my mother's troubles in getting some luxuries, such as toilet paper, underwear, shoes, notebook paper. We were still extremely fortunate, as my grandmother was a retired meat factory worker, so we had plenty of meat and lunch cold cuts in our house, except only the worst 1980-81 winter, when I brought from school a 10 pound bag of corn flour that I won in a lottery from generous American people food gifts. BTW, my mom had no idea how to use it, as Polish kitchen did not use corn flour for anything. I think even then we were a bit better off than poor people of Venezuela are today as there was no general shortage of bread.

I also remember vividly the oppression of the new system after the transformation began. As a 19-year old freshman I saw for the first time a Post-It note and a few mind blowing office supply inventions, like spiral-bound report done by a showoff colleague of mine, or found that a xerox machine can make a copy of somebody's notes. Pretty shocking experiences. Life got even more difficult when couple of years later I entered a store wanting to buy some candy and after I saw a stand with 20+ varieties, I walked away overwhelmed with choice. Those true horrors of capitalist economy. Yes, socialism was truly fun.

fintail

The use of the term "Autopilot" is perhaps the greatest mistake of Tesla. These mild autonomous systems need driver input and attention, but the name seems to make the fanbase forget about this. I have little doubt user error is the key factor in virtually all incidents involving this feature, and the name/hype makes that happen. I am surprised there isn't huge legal action.

imidazol97 said:

I just watched a segment on one of the business channels about Tesla. Consumer Reports, of all people, can't recommend them. Especially with the physical problems that are happening and he listed off several including broken glass. But the topic was the automated driving features were something CR didn't like.

Yesterday I read an article that mentioned a second case where the driver was decapitated seconds after turning the automatic driving feature and the ran under a semi trailer.

Add the fires that hit the news about Teslas and ...

I started paying attention a few weeks back when Musk was selling some of his stock or the company was in order to raise money to make the payment on the bonds that was coming due. Cash flow.

berri

But the Eastern bloc went way beyond socialism with communism. I think the latter has a history of corruption and greater class disparity ironically. The novel "Animal Farm" had it pegged years back. Sadly (or maybe luckily for us) the excellent technical skills in places like Russia and some of the eastern bloc were squandered by the Communist leadership. Meanwhile, the dejected working class turned too often to alcohol.

abacomike

The so-called “autonomous driving systems” available as optional equipment on many automobiles and SUV’s require driver input and close monitoring in order for them to work.

In my S450, once I engage Distronic Plus (adaptive steering and adaptive cruise control with active lane-changing), if I take my hands off the steering wheel, the system disconnects within 10 seconds and does not reconnect until my hands are back on the steering wheel.  Auto Pilot is different in that once it is engaged, it remains engaged until it is manually disconnected.

That is why they call these systems, like mine, “semi-autonomous”.  While in adaptive cruise and steering, the cameras and sensors steer the car using the painted lines on the road as guides - it will even steer the car through significant curves so long as your hands are on the steering wheel.  In no way is the car’s systems fully autonomous.  

ruking1

berri said:

But the Eastern bloc went way beyond socialism with communism. I think the latter has a history of corruption and greater class disparity ironically. The novel "Animal Farm" had it pegged years back. Sadly (or maybe luckily for us) the excellent technical skills in places like Russia and some of the eastern bloc were squandered by the Communist leadership. Meanwhile, the dejected working class turned too often to alcohol.

They do make great vodka, if one happens to like it.🎭

oldfarmer50

sampurna said:

when is the best time to lease car? memorial day vs black friday?

New Year’s Eve is the absolute best. Followed by end of quarter and end of month. You may get a great deal any time if a dealer is desperate to move something but you won’t know until you throw a low ball offer and see what happens. Any time the showroom is full you’re competing with lots of other people so I always go early on a week day.

cdnpinhead

houdini2 said:

Working hard and investing wisely for 30 or 40 years has nothing to do with it ?

Not in his world. Face it, we were just born lucky and "we didn't build that."

cdnpinhead

imidazol97 said:

. . . they used to recommend Tesla, but they're swung the other direction based on real facts.

Wow, that's never happened before, except for the Chrysler LH cars, the Lincoln LS and God knows what all else.

oldfarmer50

dino001 said:

fintail said:

If one likes insane out of control healthcare (and housing, and transportation, etc) costs and a litany of dumb public works projects that benefit a small few, move to the Seattle metro.

Funny thing is, it is still better than many other places, even with its foibles and failings. Many must agree, as population continues to expand with no end in sight. At least it is kind of part of the first world, unlike large swaths of the nation.

I also find it amusing that many who whine about "socialism" as some kind of weird pejorative (yet they can't define it) likely benefit from both lucky birth timing and fat publicly funded entitlement bennies.

Oh, I can speak with some authority about socialism. Took 19 years out of my young life. I literally graduated from high school in a communist-party ruled country and started my college in economy that started its market transformation. As a kid (about 10-12 y.o.) I spent some quality time in daily lines for butter (one time I spent two hours just to walk away with an equivalent of one stick). I also remember my mother's troubles in getting some luxuries, such as toilet paper, underwear, shoes, notebook paper. We were still extremely fortunate, as my grandmother was a retired meat factory worker, so we had plenty of meat and lunch cold cuts in our house, except only the worst 1980-81 winter, when I brought from school a 10 pound bag of corn flour that I won in a lottery from generous American people food gifts. BTW, my mom had no idea how to use it, as Polish kitchen did not use corn flour for anything. I think even then we were a bit better off than poor people of Venezuela are today as there was no general shortage of bread.

I also remember vividly the oppression of the new system after the transformation began. As a 19-year old freshman I saw for the first time a Post-It note and a few mind blowing office supply inventions, like spiral-bound report done by a showoff colleague of mine, or found that a xerox machine can make a copy of somebody's notes. Pretty shocking experiences. Life got even more difficult when couple of years later I entered a store wanting to buy some candy and after I saw a stand with 20+ varieties, I walked away overwhelmed with choice. Those true horrors of capitalist economy. Yes, socialism was truly fun.

Funny how those who experienced first hand the true benefits of socialism are tolerant of the failings of capitalism. Almost as if the equality of poverty holds no attraction.

dino001

berri said:

But the Eastern bloc went way beyond socialism with communism. I think the latter has a history of corruption and greater class disparity ironically. The novel "Animal Farm" had it pegged years back. Sadly (or maybe luckily for us) the excellent technical skills in places like Russia and some of the eastern bloc were squandered by the Communist leadership. Meanwhile, the dejected working class turned too often to alcohol.

The problem is, it has a potential to become a very steep slippery slope. It always starts as a well-intentioned help to poor invariably ending in disaster. Just ask people of Venezuela, if they saw Chavez’s “help the poor” programs ending in Maduro’s total destruction of the country. Mugabe was also seen as a father-like figure, leading Zimbabwe from colonial domain to shiny example of a shared wealth. Both Zimbabwe and Venezuela have great riches of commodities. We had a joke in Poland that if you run Sahara under our economic model, you run out if sand in couple of months.

At the end of the day it is about the rethoric. The socialism cries by the right would not be as powerful, if not for those constant “eat the rich” attacks coming from the other side and calls for extreme taxation not just on incomes, but on wealth itself. “Small” 2 percent wealth tax means a 40 percent wipeout in 25 years. It’s a guaranteed road to become a cautionary tale.

dino001

Some people confuse capitalism with crony government. I think the biggest issue with current system is legal position of a corporation. It’s an ingenious device to get personal profit without personal responsibility. As such, it should be bound by laws more restrictive than individuals. Double tax should not be only price for that personal responsibility separation. Corporations are too powerful today, they are useful, but also sociopathic by nature and as such should be governed by much stronger laws. Their managements should be held legally responsible for actions under their direction and corporation should not have ability to influence political process the way they can today. They ARE NOT people. There it is, something I agree with the left.

driver100

dino001 said:

berri said:

But the Eastern bloc went way beyond socialism with communism. I think the latter has a history of corruption and greater class disparity ironically. The novel "Animal Farm" had it pegged years back. Sadly (or maybe luckily for us) the excellent technical skills in places like Russia and some of the eastern bloc were squandered by the Communist leadership. Meanwhile, the dejected working class turned too often to alcohol.

We had a joke in Poland that if you run Sahara under our economic model, you run out if sand in couple of months.

Love that joke!
Your great nation was founded on equality for all. By equality, not that everyone gets an equal share which seems to be what many want.....but equal opportunity to be successful.

Doesn't mean if you can't make it you are left to the wolves, you get help (unemployment insurance, welfare, pension, medicare), I would call them social programs, not today's socialism......I want whatever that guy has (like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet), or at least a share of what he has worked for. Where's my share ?

jmonroe1

cdnpinhead said:

houdini2 said:

Working hard and investing wisely for 30 or 40 years has nothing to do with it ?

Not in his world. Face it, we were just born lucky and "we didn't build that."

As the saying goes, "I'd rather be lucky than good". I don't know about the rest of you guys that are retired but I never planted a single seed. Came the day I retired and all of a sudden the fruit was ripe. Damn was I ever lucky. As that Russian comedian said, "WHAT A COUNTRY" !!!!

jmonroe

Mr_Shiftright

imidazol97 said:

I just watched a segment on one of the business channels about Tesla. Consumer Reports, of all people, can't recommend them. Especially with the physical problems that are happening and he listed off several including broken glass. But the topic was the automated driving features were something CR didn't like.

Yesterday I read an article that mentioned a second case where the driver was decapitated seconds after turning the automatic driving feature and the ran under a semi trailer.

Add the fires that hit the news about Teslas and ...

I started paying attention a few weeks back when Musk was selling some of his stock or the company was in order to raise money to make the payment on the bonds that was coming due. Cash flow.

Tesla has 49,000 employees, and for an automaker that size, it should be producing 1,000, 000 cars a year.
It's just not efficiently run. Also their debt to revenue ratio is way higher than GM, Ford or VW.

fintail

I can only imagine having education, healthcare, and housing costs at the same ratio to incomes as they were ~45 years ago when the bootstrappers were busy building it all themselves with no help from anyone and darn these spoiled kids have it easy today get off my lawn!

No luck indeed!

Just as I am luckier than those 20 years younger than I in those regards.

cdnpinhead said:

houdini2 said:

Working hard and investing wisely for 30 or 40 years has nothing to do with it ?

Not in his world. Face it, we were just born lucky and "we didn't build that."

driver100

Mr_Shiftright said:

imidazol97 said:

I just watched a segment on one of the business channels about Tesla. Consumer Reports, of all people, can't recommend them. Especially with the physical problems that are happening and he listed off several including broken glass. But the topic was the automated driving features were something CR didn't like.

Yesterday I read an article that mentioned a second case where the driver was decapitated seconds after turning the automatic driving feature and the ran under a semi trailer.

Add the fires that hit the news about Teslas and ...

I started paying attention a few weeks back when Musk was selling some of his stock or the company was in order to raise money to make the payment on the bonds that was coming due. Cash flow.

Tesla has 49,000 employees, and for an automaker that size, it should be producing 1,000, 000 cars a year.
It's just not efficiently run. Also their debt to revenue ratio is way higher than GM, Ford or VW.

Oh oh....I think we are trying to get corralled back to talking cars.