Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

abacomike

explorerx4 said:

Let me start out with a doctor joke as told to me by one of my BIL's who is a doctor. Question: What's the difference between God and a surgeon? Answer: God knows he's not a surgeon. About 4 months ago, I bought a 2013 CPO Escape SEL with 24k miles. Did some research on the original msrp, just under 31.5k, figure 28.5k or so after discount and incentives. I looked at a lot of them on the web and the one I ended up buying had the lowest mileage. It also had one of the lowest asking prices and it was at a local dealer I have done business with on a regular basis. It went into service in June 2013, so it had 17 months/12k mile of the original 3/36 B to B warranty left. Because it was a CPO another 1yr/12k was added on, and the warranty was now basically 4years/48 k from new. Powertrain warranty went from 5yr/60k to 7yr/100k. It was listed for 23k, I paid 22k, plus got another 1500 for my old Explorer. I was a little flush with cash and I wanted in/out same day, so I just said we have a deal. A defroster that put out more than lukewarm air sure came in handy this past winter. Basically, there's a little wear and tear on it, but everyone who looks at it thinks it's new.

Sounds like you're a happy camper - good research always pays off in spades.

driver100

stickguy said:

no, you make sense driver. Depreciation can be lower on a more expensive car (though on luxury ones, that is often the opposite). Flip side, higher interest costs, and a biggie, cash flow. Doesn't matter if your Ferrari will be worth exactly the same after 3 years, if you can't afford $2k/month in payments!

super low interest rates of course make the financing costs a much smaller part of the equation. Especially on leases, where it is practically "free money".

I am glad it did make sense. Cost of borrowing is huge....we bought the GLK for $48k, and we get 3 months of payments paid for us by Mercedes. One months payment is $700. Cost of borrowing $48k is $700 a month!

I'll try to use my 2012 535 as an example, maybe the numbers will be a lot different. It cost $68K in 2011, after 3 years it had a trade in value of $34k. That one really got bumped up to $11333 a year. More expensive car really bumps up the cost per year....$6500 more than the A4. The A4 seems to be in the sweet spot, a $50k car with a low depreciation and very low mileage.

If someone buys the 535 and pays $39000, (Mike said $2000 to bring it up to MB standards and a profit), drives it for 4 years, less depreciation of 10% a year it is worth $26000 (I think it would be worth less than that personally, but using $26K - some articles say it will lose 15% a year), the cost of the car was $13k and the cost per year is $13k divided by 4 years = $3250 a year and I would estimate $1000 to $2000 a year for maintenance and repairs depending on how lucky you are). Personally, I would say the A4 is the best buy in this senario.

I think the key is to save like a fiend and get your first really good car paid off quickly so you can trade more frequently with a smaller difference in pricing.

driver100

abacomike said:

Driver, I don't think I exercise that much of my cerebral gifts when I buy a car.  Perhaps after being in the car business for 8 years it is easier for me to select, negotiate and buy a car because it comes more naturally to me after doing it so often.  Who knows?

Whatever you do to determine the car you want to drive may be a better way than what I do or consider.  As long as we are happy after the process is completed.

I think I see what is wrong here. I do not go through that process when I buy a car. I only go through that process when I justify buying an expensive car.

When I buy a car I just want to get a decent discount and a decent trade in value.

Calculations are just to show the real cost of ownership....which you don't worry about since you only pay $500 difference when you trade. If I got deals like you got I wouldn't think about any of this stuff either.

abacomike

Driver, on this last car I traded even (trading down).  Usually, it costs me much more to buy a new car every year - 4K-6K a year, sometimes more.  

verdugo

driver100 said:

*Show me where I went wrong, I don't believe those numbers myself.

It's a simplified analysis, but I'll buy it. Insurance and premium vs. regular gas might make the numbers work out even better for the Ford.

explorerx4

@driver100,
First off, if you pay 30k for a Fusion, the msrp is going to be a lot higher, so it will be worth more than 14k after 3 1/2 years.
If you buy one that has an msrp of 30k, you are going to pay a less for it, so even if worth 14k after 3 1/2 years, the depreciation isn't 16k.
If MB is giving you your first 3 payments, that is a rebate. The 700 payment after that probably is maybe a $100 interest to start, the rest is principal. Don't forget you still have the cash that you didn't borrow.

nyccarguy

dino001 said:

You need to add tax to your lease payment, $28. For the loan, assuming perfect credit, the interest may be something like 3-4% (used cars are a bit higher than new), unless there is a special running. Let's use 3.5%, the interest portion comes to average $40/m. So we get $470/m lease and $500/m loan.

5-year old clean Infiniti G37 (2010) with a few options and 60K miles and say 60K (assume existing mileage as 25K add lease allowance for 3 years), according to Mr. Edmunds, has value of $15K as trade, $16.5K as private. Due to interest amortization schedule, you'll own a little more than $11K after 3 years, but probably not much more. Say its more like $12K. So I think there is a good chance for some equity. General inflation in new car prices will push used cars up. The expected equity is probably 3-5 grand depending on condition, type of trade/sale and other circumstances. Do it multiple times (wash, repeat), I think it becomes real money. Make a loan shorter (quicker payoff, but perhaps a little better interest, less overall interest), keep the car for just one or two years longer and the cumulative difference shows up in tens of thousands for multiple repeats. There is some risk, of course. Scratch or dent the car, the equity goes down.

The lease payment of $415 & change I calculated includes 6.35% CT sales tax.

nyccarguy

@abacomike - great points. Your insight is invaluable as always. I always wondered if a lease like this would work well as a "3 year test drive." The Q40 AWD can be bought for a significant discount off of sticker, has a low money factor (that can be bought down even further with MSD), and realistic residual value. If one really likes it, then they have a very nice car they can purchase for the low to mid $20s. If the car gets whacked, they can get it fixed and just walk away.

abacomike

nyccarguy said:

@abacomike - great points. Your insight is invaluable as always. I always wondered if a lease like this would work well as a "3 year test drive." The Q40 AWD can be bought for a significant discount off of sticker, has a low money factor (that can be bought down even further with MSD), and realistic residual value. If one really likes it, then they have a very nice car they can purchase for the low to mid $20s. If the car gets whacked, they can get it fixed and just walk away.

Exactly!

driver100

abacomike said:

Driver, on this last car I traded even (trading down).  Usually, it costs me much more to buy a new car every year - 4K-6K a year, sometimes more.  

For one thing, it usually costs more each time you trade because of some costs...transportation, dealer prep, licence, sales tax. Trading often is costly, but it can be surprising that it may cost only a few $1000 a year to drive a much better car.....that was my real point.

The 535 cost me $11.3k a year to drive. High initial price of $68k, more than average miles. But, it was worth it to have a car that rides nice for the 1500 mile trek to Florida....3X!

driver100

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
First off, if you pay 30k for a Fusion, the msrp is going to be a lot higher, so it will be worth more than 14k after 3 1/2 years.
If you buy one that has an msrp of 30k, you are going to pay a less for it, so even if worth 14k after 3 1/2 years, the depreciation isn't 16k.
If MB is giving you your first 3 payments, that is a rebate. The 700 payment after that probably is maybe a $100 interest to start, the rest is principal. Don't forget you still have the cash that you didn't borrow.

In US $s A 2012 Ford Fusion had a MSRP $20706 to $29176
Invoice price $19381 to $26797

3 years later a 2012 Ford Fusion is worth $12021 as a trade in and will sell for $14976.

My guesstimates were pretty accurate proportionally

There are other costs to consider, transportation, taxes, dealer prep etc.

stickguy

trading a car in after 2-3 years is really the same as leasing. Leasing is just an alternate way to finance a car, with it's own unique set of costs. so buy and trade or lease and return, same end result.

driver100

stickguy said:

trading a car in after 2-3 years is really the same as leasing. Leasing is just an alternate way to finance a car, with it's own unique set of costs. so buy and trade or lease and return, same end result.

In most cases, that is true. I buy rather than lease because I will probably be over on mileage, I want more control over whether I want to keep the car for the full lease period or not, I like the feeling of owning my car - rather than feeling like a renter, I may want to keep my car for 10 years, I don't like getting dinged for stuff when I return it........and the biggest reason I would rather own.....as far as the dealer is concerned I pay cash so I am not paying high finance charges to lease (I use a line of credit,, prime + .5 or 1 point depending).

nyccarguy

@driver100 - here in the US things are different. Manufacturers sell cars by much greater volumes than in Canada. Interest rates are so cheap right now and residual values are high (plus they are sometimes inflated by their manufacturer's financing arm). If you can live within the mileage constraints of 7500 (mb), 10K, 12K, or 15K and you were planning on financing anyway, leasing works. When we bought our Pilot 4 years ago, I put $0 down on a 60 month loan for it. I think including tax, I financed $37K and change. My payments are $678.66 per month (only 12 to go after 5/19 and it is all mine). Now at the time my wife was driving between 18K & 20K per year. There were no crazy lease deals (the money factor was higher than the 2.9% rate I got). Now she drives maybe 13K - 14K per year. I could most likely lease the exact same Pilot for about $350 per month for 12K per year today.

graphicguy

stever said:

Trading in an ML 350 for a couple of luxo/sports rides and needs feedback. Sounds mostly legit, usual disclaimers. - TIA.

What cars should I buy?

Not going to touch that.. You guys can have some fun with him if you want, though.

driver100

nyccarguy said:

@driver100 - here in the US things are different. Manufacturers sell cars by much greater volumes than in Canada. Interest rates are so cheap right now and residual values are high (plus they are sometimes inflated by their manufacturer's financing arm). If you can live within the mileage constraints of 7500 (mb), 10K, 12K, or 15K and you were planning on financing anyway, leasing works. When we bought our Pilot 4 years ago, I put $0 down on a 60 month loan for it. I think including tax, I financed $37K and change. My payments are $678.66 per month (only 12 to go after 5/19 and it is all mine). Now at the time my wife was driving between 18K & 20K per year. There were no crazy lease deals (the money factor was higher than the 2.9% rate I got). Now she drives maybe 13K - 14K per year. I could most likely lease the exact same Pilot for about $350 per month for 12K per year today.

nyc...I have nothing against leasing, if it works for you then go for it. I think my grandson should have leased a new Focus, Fusion, Civic, Accord, Corolla or other reliable car, instead of driving a 20+ year old Volvo that just broke down again on a major highway.

If you know you will be buying again in 2 or 3 years it may make more sense to lease...depends on deals at the time, and tax situations (just pay tax on the time you use the car) etc.

There is a time and a place when leasing is a really good thing. Our daughter is looking at $700 a month for a GLK, 328, or Volvo. She doesn't have a downpayment (3 kids in university) but she makes over $200k a year. Leasing is definitely her best bet.

But, owning is a little more satisfying for me, and gives me more options. If I pay a bit more (and I doubt if I do) that's OK too.

stickguy

I leased my current car purely for cash flow reasons. Next one almost surely I will buy.

Michaell

stickguy said:

I leased my current car purely for cash flow reasons. Next one almost surely I will buy.

Ditto ... I wanted to keep my payments small for budget reasons. When the lease is up next year I'll probably lease again.

We bought the wife's car as we expect to keep it 10+ years.

carnaught

I pay cash for cars, but lease one of them for two reasons. The first is it's used solely for work, and is a write-off. The second is that for the 24 mos. I lease it, being a member of the CCBA, I am forced not to get another car sooner than the end of the lease.

qbrozen

Whew! OK, a couple of things to catch up on.

Lease vs Buy: If you have determined all costs are equal, go for the purchase. If anything changes, such as finances, living situation, etc, it is far far less painful to get out of a purchase early than a lease.

Depreciation: Where is this $45k Audi that's worth $28k after 3 years? Audis just don't hold their value very well. I just looked up 2012 Prestige Quattros and they are only getting $23k at the block, which would be $22k trade-in, at best. Overallowance or lease residuals don't count in the real world.

BTW, AWD Fusion V6? About $16k.

From MSRP, they are each very close to 50%, but of course that's $23k depreciation on the Audi vs $16k on the Ford.

ab348

The whole lease vs buy thing is tough, but my last 2 cars have been leases because I got good deals and wanted to conserve cash up-front. But it is also hard to pass them up when you see deals like Ford Canada is promoting right now - a 2015 F-150 for $349/mo for 24 months.

driver100

qbrozen said:

Depreciation: Where is this $45k Audi that's worth $28k after 3 years? Audis just don't hold their value very well. I just looked up 2012 Prestige Quattros and they are only getting $23k at the block, which would be $22k trade-in, at best. Overallowance or lease residuals don't count in the real world.

It is in Canada where prices are 20% higher.

Black Book Value 2013 Audi A4

Canadian Black Book Trade In Value
STEP 6 - Your tradein

Trade-in Value
|
Future Value
|
Average Asking Price

2013 Audi A4 Premium Plus 4D Sedan Qtro 6sp
$25,234
$28,184

Trim: Premium Plus |Style: 4D Sedan Qtro 6sp |

Kilometres: 26,000 km

bwia

Quick and Dirty

How do you know if you are getting a good lease deal?

According to this website: http://www.realcartips.com/leasing/0439-good-lease-deal.shtml any lease that costs less than $135 per month per $10,000 worth of vehicle is a good deal.
He explains this comparison is based on a typical 5-year loan where the car is sold three years after purchase. In that scenario the monthly loan payments come up to between $175 and $200 including interest and depreciation.

I haven't crunched the numbers but off the top of my head these metrics appear to be too divergent to be true. Comments?

dino001

This thing is too simplistic. It has no mileage correction, which is crucial.

qbrozen

driver100 said:

qbrozen said:

Depreciation: Where is this $45k Audi that's worth $28k after 3 years? Audis just don't hold their value very well. I just looked up 2012 Prestige Quattros and they are only getting $23k at the block, which would be $22k trade-in, at best. Overallowance or lease residuals don't count in the real world.

It is in Canada where prices are 20% higher.

Black Book Value 2013 Audi A4

Canadian Black Book Trade In Value
STEP 6 - Your tradein

Trade-in Value
|
Future Value
|
Average Asking Price

2013 Audi A4 Premium Plus 4D Sedan Qtro 6sp
$25,234
$28,184

Trim: Premium Plus |Style: 4D Sedan Qtro 6sp |

Kilometres: 26,000 km

Ha. Well, then, the Fusion would be higher, too. Oh, and I was basing it on 45k miles.

stickguy

The other rule of thumb I have seen here is leases payment less than 1% per month of MSRP

Michaell

stickguy said:

The other rule of thumb I have seen here is leases payment less than 1% per month of MSRP

I've used that metric, too, but don't know the origin.

bwia

Safety first

henryn

Here in Texas (and a few other states), you have to pay sales tax "up front" on the entire purchase amount when you lease.

For a discounted sale price of $30,0000, that is (at 6.25%) another $1,875 due at signing. AND ... if you decide to purchase the car at the end of the lease, you get to pay sales tax (again).

Michaell

henryn said:

Here in Texas (and a few other states), you have to pay sales tax "up front" on the entire purchase amount when you lease.

For a discounted sale price of $30,0000, that is (at 6.25%) another $1,875 due at signing. AND ... if you decide to purchase the car at the end of the lease, you get to pay sales tax (again).

Texas, Georgia and Maryland all tax leases this way. Illinois used to, but they changed the law last year and it went into effect 1/1/15.

However ... I have had some posters state that some dealers / manufacturers will offer a tax credit when leasing so as to mitigate the hit to the wallet.

Most states tax the monthly payment; some states will calculate the tax up front for the entire lease - the consumer has the choice of paying it at lease signing or adding it to the cap cost.

dino001

henryn said:

Here in Texas (and a few other states), you have to pay sales tax "up front" on the entire purchase amount when you lease.

For a discounted sale price of $30,0000, that is (at 6.25%) another $1,875 due at signing. AND ... if you decide to purchase the car at the end of the lease, you get to pay sales tax (again).

Many companies offer workaround financing structures in those states (BMW calls it "owner's choice"). As I understand it, they are essentially balloon payment loans with option of a trade-in at preset price at the end of the term (i.e. pay last balloon payment, refinance, or trade it in at a predetermined price). Now the tax is paid once, as it is a single transaction, perhaps you may need to pay stamps for refinancing, which is much less than sales tax.

explorerx4

Driver100, you forgot about incentives.
I bought a new 2007 Fusion in Feb 2008, msrp was 26k, I paid less than 20k(excluding sales tax, dealer fee, reg transfer).
In May 2011, traded it in for 13,500 not including the discount on the new vehicle.
It was 4 model years old by then.

driver100

explorerx4 said:

Driver100, you forgot about incentives.
I bought a new 2007 Fusion in Feb 2008, msrp was 26k, I paid less than 20k(excluding sales tax, dealer fee, reg transfer).
In May 2011, traded it in for 13,500 not including the discount on the new vehicle.
It was 4 model years old by then.

Well, there are going to be all kinds of exceptions, especially if a company needs to move some metal. I still say my brother had the cheapest cars to run.

Buys a Civic in 2003 (I am guessing he paid about $16 or $17k at the time..
They give him $10k for it in 2013, as a trade in on a brand new 2013 Elantra, and he pays.....wait for it, $4000 difference. He did all the maintenance stuff at Honda and probably overpaid for that, but didn't have any real issues. He probably drove the Civic for about $1000 a year!

Then today he talked himself out of a speeding ticket (told the cop he wanted to get in front of a bus and then was just about to slow down) and he got back $140 from Hyundai for their misleading gas consumption numbers. Some people have all the luck....but, I wouldn't go on the highway in that little Elantra with power mower wheels.

stickguy

the 1% rule makes some logical sense. quick and dirty math, that is 36% off MSRP, so a 64% residual with no interest.

explorerx4

Driver100,
My ex Fusion went on the dealer website for 17k, so I don't think my numbers are off.
Domestic brands can be tricky to figure out as far as depreciation goes.

Michaell

explorerx4 said:

Driver100,
My ex Fusion went on the dealer website for 17k, so I don't think my numbers are off.
Domestic brands can be tricky to figure out as far as depreciation goes.

For leasing, the toughest manufacturer is Toyota. Every other manufacturer has a simple residual table - Accord EX is x% for 36 months, 12,000 miles, EX-L is y%, etc. Adjust for miles per year and length of lease.

For Toyota, they provide a "Base MSRP Residual", meaning that any option on the windows sticker isn't residualized. The dealer has to physically look up the hard coded residual amount for that VIN #.

driver100

explorerx4 said:

Driver100,
My ex Fusion went on the dealer website for 17k, so I don't think my numbers are off.
Domestic brands can be tricky to figure out as far as depreciation goes.

Explorer, I don't think your numbers are off either but, there are lots of variables. It sounds like you got the car at an unusually good price.....maybe the dealer had to really sell a car that month. Getting a $26k car for under $20k is very unusual. You got 4 years use of the car for $6500 or $1625 a year which is very cheap transportation......very unusual...although my brother still did even better

Your statement "Domestic brands can be tricky to figure out as far as depreciation goes" is so true, it's like anything goes for domestics.

driver100

Michaell said:

explorerx4 said:

Driver100,
My ex Fusion went on the dealer website for 17k, so I don't think my numbers are off.
Domestic brands can be tricky to figure out as far as depreciation goes.

For leasing, the toughest manufacturer is Toyota. Every other manufacturer has a simple residual table - Accord EX is x% for 36 months, 12,000 miles, EX-L is y%, etc. Adjust for miles per year and length of lease.

For Toyota, they provide a "Base MSRP Residual", meaning that any option on the windows sticker isn't residualized. The dealer has to physically look up the hard coded residual amount for that VIN #.

That's a tough one. Do you think Toyota isn't that interested in leasing for some reason?

fezo

Well, chiming at just the right time as everyone is actually chatting how to buy a car. We declared the Mazda dead today. It makes driver's argument against buying used seem downright prophetic. Not one, not two, not three but four catalytic converters are clogged beyond repair. Too bad I didn't just move on knowing this was coming. There was a nearly perfect Mazda 6s sedan CPO that had exactly what I wanted down to the color except a stick and I'm willing to pass that up for something that at least lets me control the gears when I want to.

So I've been cyber shopping and am mostly down to a few things and am ready to accept one that doesn't quite check all the boxes.

Leading candidates are several 6s that miss a box or two but are perfectly fine cars. A couple of CX5s that looked all right. I don't believe I'm going to say this because I swore I was done but I;m going to try out a Mazda 5. Yes, a minivan. A lot would depend on whether it drives more like a Mazda or like a minivan.

There a 2014 Fusion SE with a stick 20 miles from here. Anybody other than explorer in the Fords are ok camp? Obviously reliability, longevity and and potential resale will be factors.

Have not totally abandoned the thought of a new CRV AWD EX. Time to do some driving.....

The timing could have been better.

If anyone wants a set of Michelin Premier tired 17 215/50 for nice price let me know. Looks like we'll be selling by the piece - which at least beats selling it by the pound.

fezo

Here's the comment chance - a few in the running. Feel free to tell me they want to much on any of them.

http://www.hamiltonmazda.net/auto/used-2014-mazda-mazda6-i_touring-hamilton-08690-nj/3076740/

http://www.downsford.com/used/2014/Ford/Fusion/3FA6P0HR2ER171886/000U2612.aspx

http://www.lesterglennsubaru.com/certified/Subaru/2012-Subaru-Forester-toms-river-292870a10a0a006524039f2fc20bbd3e.htm?searchDepth=5:17

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=08050&endYear=2016&showcaseOwnerId=7338345&startYear=2010&makeCode1=MAZDA&listingType=certified&listingTypes=certified&firstRecord=76&maxMileage=30000&searchRadius=75&maxPrice=22000&showcaseListingId=399419415&mmt=[MAZDA[][]]&listingId=396981812&Log=0

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=08050&endYear=2016&showcaseOwnerId=7338345&startYear=2010&makeCode1=MAZDA&listingType=certified&listingTypes=certified&firstRecord=51&maxMileage=30000&searchRadius=75&maxPrice=22000&showcaseListingId=399419415&mmt=[MAZDA[][]]&listingId=398900099&Log=0 (just through that in to see if you were paying attention)

http://www.hamiltonmazda.net/auto/used-2014-mazda-cx5-sport-hamilton-08690-nj/3076601/

stickguy

sorry to hear about your loss Fezo. Should post this story on the recent "help this person" thread where Q if pushing an older Mazda with 100K for a 1st time buyer. You just never know.

Ford still offered a stick in 2014 on a Fusion? Didn't realize that. probably a rare bird.

so you want to "stick with a stick". Good man. Few choices. Too bad you won't do VW (still?), that cuts out some choices. Stick mazdas are doable. Is the 5 you found a stick?

Pretty sure they drive like a tall 3, not a minivan. Going to be a lot slower than your 6 of course.

maybe a Sube turns up.

tough and expensive way to be put into the market, but at least you get to shop.

Oh, maybe a Volvo. S60 or V50 stick. they exist in theory at least.

stickguy

found a red imprezza wagon. You like red, right?

http://www.millersubaru.com/used/Subaru/2010-Subaru-Impreza-Mt-Holly-f700bb910a0a00652d36b4d5bbf65d2b.htm?searchDepth=3:7

You don't like white, right? Otherwise, everyone's holy grail. A diesel wagon with a moonroof and stick.

http://www.subaruofcherryhill.com/used-inventory/index.htm?compositeType=&year=&make=&bodyStyle=Manual+TDI+w/Sunroof&odometer=&internetPrice=&saveFacetState=true&lastFacetInteracted=inventory-listing1-facet-anchor-bodyStyle-21

Nice sube. too pricey, and no pano. But it is a premium.

http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/632265990/overview/

3 hatch cpo.

http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/634617188/overview/

nyccarguy

@fezo - that 8800 mile Miata with a stick s calling you baby! You could probably drive it for a year & sell it for the same price;)

stickguy

wait, where is that one? I missed it, not clicking on all his links!

Michaell

@fezo - of the cars you listed, I like the blue Mazda 6 best.

Looks like you've got some test driving ahead of you, my friend.

explorerx4

Driver100,
I do my homework before buying, which helps.
The next car I bought I got even more off the sticker.
It was a new top of the line 09 Escape.

suydam

At least the weather is good for car shopping. It could have been February and 15 degrees which is when my car died. Good luck finding the MT. If you can get the current Mazda6 with a manual, you will probably be happy with it since you liked the last one. Are you looking for a midsizer generally? Wagon type a necessity? If not, the Honda Accord Sport has a manual.

driver100

fezo said:

Here's the comment chance - a few in the running. Feel free to tell me they want to much on any of them.

http://www.hamiltonmazda.net/auto/used-2014-mazda-mazda6-i_touring-hamilton-08690-nj/3076740/

http://www.downsford.com/used/2014/Ford/Fusion/3FA6P0HR2ER171886/000U2612.aspx

http://www.lesterglennsubaru.com/certified/Subaru/2012-Subaru-Forester-toms-river-292870a10a0a006524039f2fc20bbd3e.htm?searchDepth=5:17

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=08050&endYear=2016&showcaseOwnerId=7338345&startYear=2010&makeCode1=MAZDA&listingType=certified&listingTypes=certified&firstRecord=76&maxMileage=30000&searchRadius=75&maxPrice=22000&showcaseListingId=399419415&mmt=[MAZDA[][]]&listingId=396981812&Log=0

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=08050&endYear=2016&showcaseOwnerId=7338345&startYear=2010&makeCode1=MAZDA&listingType=certified&listingTypes=certified&firstRecord=51&maxMileage=30000&searchRadius=75&maxPrice=22000&showcaseListingId=399419415&mmt=[MAZDA[][]]&listingId=398900099&Log=0 (just through that in to see if you were paying attention)

http://www.hamiltonmazda.net/auto/used-2014-mazda-cx5-sport-hamilton-08690-nj/3076601/

That's too bad Fezo, I was hoping the old mazda would just have a simple problem.

All, the cars you picked look good. They are a little all over the map I have to say, but, that is OK, you are entitled to choose. Some people love SUVs, some people are tired of them. I used my Jeeps and X3 for work, so I think of them as more utilitarian. But, then my wife liked the GLK so we are back to having an SUV in the fleet.

Take this opportunity to have some fun and find out what you really want.

Didn't Cadillac have some manuals so they could price them at under $40k? Ever consider a Caddie.

Explorer sure can get good deals on Fords.....$6 or $7k off! Get him to teach you his method.

Keep us posted......maybe you can drive 3 cars a day and give us a report.

fezo

Right now I'm not feeling well enough to do multiple cars a day. Rough night. Changed my PT and my body doesn't agree with the first go round. The longer term payoff will be worth it.

I look at the small SUVs like the CX5 as wagons.

I'm not stuck on a stick largely because of having to drive NYC most months.

Just trying to make sure I've got enough space to hold four people, a guitar and enough luggage to go away for a week. A 6 would do that. I'm not sure if a 3 would though I really like them.

Stick - I love that Impreza wagon but am a little concerned with 78K and it being a 2010. I may be sticking with Mike's no more than 3 years old and under 30K route.

We will see. Like Michaelll said, that blue 6 may be he frontrunner.

stickguy

The 5 would work perfectly for your travel needs. Especially a newer one with the 2.5 engine. Give it a try.