Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

stickguy

That just seems like such a ridiculous feature anyway.

Michaell

Ignorance of the law is no defense.

venture

driver100 said:

venture said:

explorerx4 said:

I don't see why they would include dealer fees in the settlement. That varies by dealer and how the purchase is negotiated.

Yes, but the point was I now have to pay these fees I would not have had to pay if he hadn't ran into me. I just paid doc fee, etc. 5 months ago.

Well, you are being covered for the cost of replacing your car.
If you walked into the dealer and bought a new car you would have to pay doc fees as well.
You are going to get a brand new car, which is worth more than your original car...newer, lower mileage etc.
But, when dealing with insurance companies it is them against you, and if anything doesn't seem fair, you can complain....and probably take it to an ombudsman or the insurance bureau.

The wrecked car was a 2024 with less than 5,000 miles on it. I would not be walking into a dealer to pay more doc fees, etc.

I'm not sure what the hell you are talking about.

roadburner

Michaell said:

Ignorance of the law is no defense.

What also comes to mind is, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."

driver100

venture said:

driver100 said:

venture said:

explorerx4 said:

I don't see why they would include dealer fees in the settlement. That varies by dealer and how the purchase is negotiated.

Yes, but the point was I now have to pay these fees I would not have had to pay if he hadn't ran into me. I just paid doc fee, etc. 5 months ago.

Well, you are being covered for the cost of replacing your car.
If you walked into the dealer and bought a new car you would have to pay doc fees as well.
You are going to get a brand new car, which is worth more than your original car...newer, lower mileage etc.
But, when dealing with insurance companies it is them against you, and if anything doesn't seem fair, you can complain....and probably take it to an ombudsman or the insurance bureau.

The wrecked car was a 2024 with less than 5,000 miles on it. I would not be walking into a dealer to pay more doc fees, etc.

I'm not sure what the hell you are talking about.

Do you think I knew how many miles were on your car...or that it only had 5000 miles on it? Do you think I have nothing better to do than know everything about your life?
My car was 2 years old and had about 25000 miles on it when it was replaced at full value. I didn't mind paying the DOC fees as I was getting a car that was worth about $20000 more than the wrecked one.

Insurance covers the cost of replacing the car, not extra fees.

driver100

Michaell said:

Ignorance of the law is no defense.

True, the guy shouldn't have used the feature but you have to wonder....why did it fail so badly?

Michaell

@driver100 said:
True, the guy shouldn't have used the feature but you have to wonder....why did it fail so badly?

And, I wonder if you would have linked to the article if it wasn’t an EV?

driver100

Michaell said:

@driver100 said:

True, the guy shouldn't have used the feature but you have to wonder....why did it fail so badly?

And, I wonder if you would have linked to the article if it wasn’t an EV?

Of course not!

Michaell

Confirmation bias is alive and well.

driver100

Michaell said:

Confirmation bias is alive and well.

I am not against EVs. I don't like them being forced on us especially when the infrastructure won't support 100% EVs by 2030 or whatever they think.
EVs are great in certain circumstances. Too much has gone wrong and the problems have to get sorted out. Like losing 40% of power in cold weather.
I think there is a better way to phase it in.
btw.....EVs aren't selling very well, as predicted.

dino001

Being so heavily promoted/subsidized/mandated as they currently are, EV push in current form is one of the biggest combination of government waste of resources and "trickle up" wealth scam preyed on lower classes. From ridiculous phase-out target dates, to strain on the infrastructure, to unsolved problems like charging when you live in a multiapartment complex, to simple lies you hear about how great these things are for the planet. Of course all that devastation in Africa, Asia and South America cobalt or lithium mines doesn't count, it's not visible, hence it doesn't exist. Congolese children send their thanks for their great green jobs in cobalt mines.

nyccarguy

@driver100 said:
I am not against EVs. I don't like them being forced on us especially when the infrastructure won't support 100% EVs by 2030 or whatever they think.
EVs are great in certain circumstances. Too much has gone wrong and the problems have to get sorted out. Like losing 40% of power in cold weather.
I think there is a better way to phase it in.
btw.....EVs aren't selling very well, as predicted.

I don't like them being forced on us like they did with backup cameras

Michaell

My point was that the “valet mode“ has nothing to do with the vehicle being an EV. If this was a Mercedes gas engine vehicle that experienced the same issue, would you have been so quick to call it out?

I agree with some of the points you have made about electric vehicles.

imidazol97

Michaell said:

My point was that the “valet mode“ has nothing to do with the vehicle being an EV. If this was a Mercedes gas engine vehicle that experienced the same issue, would you have been so quick to call it out?

I think I would have called out the problem with the self-driving mode, "valet mode," in this case, no matter the power source. There are some things cars and computers with their sensors just aren't able to decode. I point to the problems with self-driving cars. And folks are still pushing for self-driving semitrucks. Yikes.

It happened earlier today I went to Toyota Planet.com or a site named similarly to that to see what they said about problems with the 2021 Venza my son has and has had only minor problems with under warranty. It turns out there's a sudden acceleration problem with slow speed movement such as parking. The car takes off. Some suggest it's related to the smart cruise control thinking the car is still on the highway and has come to a stop, and then the foot is off the brake and the car tries to regain highway speed. The suggestion is to turn off the cruise control after a highway speed session.

And then there was a guy suggesting that some who posted the problem were lying about it just to get to post or something like that. If they weren't a regular poster already, it sounds like he didn't believe the problem had occurred. Reminds me of the Toyota/Lexus problems many years ago with full throttle stuck acceleration, that was attributed to floor mat blocking the accelerator pedal, at least by some folks.

fintail

driver100 said:

Michaell said:

Ignorance of the law is no defense.

True, the guy shouldn't have used the feature but you have to wonder....why did it fail so badly?

It's like "autopilot", our modern day Howard Hughes is good at overpromising.

driver100

Michaell said:

My point was that the “valet mode“ has nothing to do with the vehicle being an EV. If this was a Mercedes gas engine vehicle that experienced the same issue, would you have been so quick to call it out?

I agree with some of the points you have made about electric vehicles.

I reported the story because I thought it was interesting and a bit different. It is a story that probably would only have happened to an EV with all the added technology. I suppose I am a little bit against new technology that moves faster than it should, and companies like Tesla think they have answers and leading edge technology, but maybe they should make sure the equipment is actually viable before putting it on the market.

driver100

dino001 said:

Being so heavily promoted/subsidized/mandated as they currently are, EV push in current form is one of the biggest combination of government waste of resources and "trickle up" wealth scam preyed on lower classes. From ridiculous phase-out target dates, to strain on the infrastructure, to unsolved problems like charging when you live in a multiapartment complex, to simple lies you hear about how great these things are for the planet. Of course all that devastation in Africa, Asia and South America cobalt or lithium mines doesn't count, it's not visible, hence it doesn't exist. Congolese children send their thanks for their great green jobs in cobalt mines.

Exactly, well stated and there are many more problems that won't be solved by the deadline date. Not to get into the political aspects but I think it is a way of controlling the population....if it was so great it would grow on it's own, without deadlines, without subsidizing, without removing choice. I don't like the way it is being forced on us, and the numbers don't hold up....sales are falling off....what are they going to do now?

jmonroe1

nyccarguy said:

@driver100 said:

I am not against EVs. I don't like them being forced on us especially when the infrastructure won't support 100% EVs by 2030 or whatever they think.

EVs are great in certain circumstances. Too much has gone wrong and the problems have to get sorted out. Like losing 40% of power in cold weather.

I think there is a better way to phase it in.

btw.....EVs aren't selling very well, as predicted.

I don't like them being forced on us like they did with backup cameras

————————————————-
That’s a bad example. @driver100 is probably still trying to figure out how to get a backup camera installed in his Florida Benz.

jmonroe

snakeweasel

venture said:

driver100 said:

venture said:

explorerx4 said:

I don't see why they would include dealer fees in the settlement. That varies by dealer and how the purchase is negotiated.

Yes, but the point was I now have to pay these fees I would not have had to pay if he hadn't ran into me. I just paid doc fee, etc. 5 months ago.

Well, you are being covered for the cost of replacing your car.
If you walked into the dealer and bought a new car you would have to pay doc fees as well.
You are going to get a brand new car, which is worth more than your original car...newer, lower mileage etc.
But, when dealing with insurance companies it is them against you, and if anything doesn't seem fair, you can complain....and probably take it to an ombudsman or the insurance bureau.

The wrecked car was a 2024 with less than 5,000 miles on it. I would not be walking into a dealer to pay more doc fees, etc.

I'm not sure what the hell you are talking about.

OK, but if you didn't wreck the car and you just traded it in you would still pay the DOC fees.

qbrozen

Is there a non-EV that has a “come pick me up” mode?

driver100

jmonroe1 said:

nyccarguy said:

@driver100 said:

I am not against EVs. I don't like them being forced on us especially when the infrastructure won't support 100% EVs by 2030 or whatever they think.

EVs are great in certain circumstances. Too much has gone wrong and the problems have to get sorted out. Like losing 40% of power in cold weather.

I think there is a better way to phase it in.

btw.....EVs aren't selling very well, as predicted.

I don't like them being forced on us like they did with backup cameras

————————————————-
That’s a bad example. @driver100 is probably still trying to figure out how to get a backup camera installed in his Florida Benz.

jmonroe

I have accepted the fact that I am not going to have a backup camera in the C250, but it gives me good practice at backing up without the help of a camera....you guys may lose that particular skill.

oldfarmer50

imidazol97 said:

Michaell said:

My point was that the “valet mode“ has nothing to do with the vehicle being an EV. If this was a Mercedes gas engine vehicle that experienced the same issue, would you have been so quick to call it out?

I think I would have called out the problem with the self-driving mode, "valet mode," in this case, no matter the power source. There are some things cars and computers with their sensors just aren't able to decode. I point to the problems with self-driving cars. And folks are still pushing for self-driving semitrucks. Yikes.

It happened earlier today I went to Toyota Planet.com or a site named similarly to that to see what they said about problems with the 2021 Venza my son has and has had only minor problems with under warranty. It turns out there's a sudden acceleration problem with slow speed movement such as parking. The car takes off. Some suggest it's related to the smart cruise control thinking the car is still on the highway and has come to a stop, and then the foot is off the brake and the car tries to regain highway speed. The suggestion is to turn off the cruise control after a highway speed session.

And then there was a guy suggesting that some who posted the problem were lying about it just to get to post or something like that. If they weren't a regular poster already, it sounds like he didn't believe the problem had occurred. Reminds me of the Toyota/Lexus problems many years ago with full throttle stuck acceleration, that was attributed to floor mat blocking the accelerator pedal, at least by some folks.

Don’t forget the Audi sudden acceleration problems from the 1980s which requires foot on the brake starting on many cars.

oldfarmer50

driver100 said:

dino001 said:

Being so heavily promoted/subsidized/mandated as they currently are, EV push in current form is one of the biggest combination of government waste of resources and "trickle up" wealth scam preyed on lower classes. From ridiculous phase-out target dates, to strain on the infrastructure, to unsolved problems like charging when you live in a multiapartment complex, to simple lies you hear about how great these things are for the planet. Of course all that devastation in Africa, Asia and South America cobalt or lithium mines doesn't count, it's not visible, hence it doesn't exist. Congolese children send their thanks for their great green jobs in cobalt mines.

Exactly, well stated and there are many more problems that won't be solved by the deadline date. Not to get into the political aspects but I think it is a way of controlling the population....if it was so great it would grow on it's own, without deadlines, without subsidizing, without removing choice. I don't like the way it is being forced on us, and the numbers don't hold up....sales are falling off....what are they going to do now?

Perhaps we need precautions like when gas cars were the new technology and the law required someone walk in front of the car with a bell to warn horse riders that it was coming.🤪

nyccarguy

jmonroe1 said:

nyccarguy said:

@driver100 said:

I am not against EVs. I don't like them being forced on us especially when the infrastructure won't support 100% EVs by 2030 or whatever they think.

EVs are great in certain circumstances. Too much has gone wrong and the problems have to get sorted out. Like losing 40% of power in cold weather.

I think there is a better way to phase it in.

btw.....EVs aren't selling very well, as predicted.

I don't like them being forced on us like they did with backup cameras

————————————————-
That’s a bad example. @driver100 is probably still trying to figure out how to get a backup camera installed in his Florida Benz.

jmonroe

Whoops! My bad. I didn't realize. Oh well. Too late to retract or edit my post. I'll have to be mindful of that in future posts.

nyccarguy

jmonroe1 said:

nyccarguy said:

@driver100 said:

I am not against EVs. I don't like them being forced on us especially when the infrastructure won't support 100% EVs by 2030 or whatever they think.

EVs are great in certain circumstances. Too much has gone wrong and the problems have to get sorted out. Like losing 40% of power in cold weather.

I think there is a better way to phase it in.

btw.....EVs aren't selling very well, as predicted.

I don't like them being forced on us like they did with backup cameras

————————————————-
That’s a bad example. @driver100 is probably still trying to figure out how to get a backup camera installed in his Florida Benz.

jmonroe

I love how you get the heat for my post!

mjfloyd1

I believe that you meant a wireless backup camera 😳

nyccarguy

dino001 said:

Being so heavily promoted/subsidized/mandated as they currently are, EV push in current form is one of the biggest combination of government waste of resources and "trickle up" wealth scam preyed on lower classes. From ridiculous phase-out target dates, to strain on the infrastructure, to unsolved problems like charging when you live in a multiapartment complex, to simple lies you hear about how great these things are for the planet. Of course all that devastation in Africa, Asia and South America cobalt or lithium mines doesn't count, it's not visible, hence it doesn't exist. Congolese children send their thanks for their great green jobs in cobalt mines.

I couldn't agree more with your post. Don't forget the abundance of natural resources used in order to extract the cobalt and lithium. Also, the tremendous amount of jobs when it comes to gasoline. Oil rig workers, workers at the gasoline refinery, the truck drivers, the gas station owners, their employees... and that's just scratching the surface.

Am I against electric vehicles? No. Would I lease a heavily discounted & subsidized EV? Yes.

My son texted me this picture when he got to school yesterday. He was excited that his Wrangler didn’t use a drop of gas on his way to school.

stickguy

I am a big fan now of hybrids. And I just have a mild one. I would absolutely look to get a plug in for our next car, if not a full EV. For most of our use, a plug in would effectively be an EV, just never having to worry about range anxiety!

The powertrain in the Maverick is so seamless that if you did not know it was a hybrid you probably wouldn't even realize it (especially if you were not a "car person"). Other than looking at the trip computer on a 200" long pick up, and seeing it averaging 43 MPG. Having had both versions, the hybrid is actually smoother and quieter.

Michaell

stickguy said:

I am a big fan now of hybrids. And I just have a mild one. I would absolutely look to get a plug in for our next car, if not a full EV. For most of our use, a plug in would effectively be an EV, just never having to worry about range anxiety!

The powertrain in the Maverick is so seamless that if you did not know it was a hybrid you probably wouldn't even realize it (especially if you were not a "car person"). Other than looking at the trip computer on a 200" long pick up, and seeing it averaging 43 MPG. Having had both versions, the hybrid is actually smoother and quieter.

And you don't miss having AWD?

I've had a couple of older-generation hybrids as rentals - one was a Sonata hybrid for a trip to CA, the other a Fusion hybrid for a business trip in the Bay Area. The Sonata was a bit fussy about switching between electric and gas propulsion, but the Fusion was pretty good.

Wife and daughter had a Fusion hybrid in NC some years back, and didn't like it at all.

But, I suspect the technology has gotten a lot better since then.

I agree with you, a PHEV would be an idea vehicle for our use case. The daughter is insistent that her next car will be an EV - her money, her choice.

stickguy

can't say that I have missed AWD on either one (the Ecoboost was FWD too). Though the one time I had to climb a back country hill before the plows went through it took a little extra effort but I still made it! Even with a pretty big load (a bed full of mulch bags) I never noticed any traction issues. Basically it is like driving an Odyssey full of passengers. Front tires still get traction!

Michaell

stickguy said:

can't say that I have missed AWD on either one (the Ecoboost was FWD too). Though the one time I had to climb a back country hill before the plows went through it took a little extra effort but I still made it! Even with a pretty big load (a bed full of mulch bags) I never noticed any traction issues. Basically it is like driving an Odyssey full of passengers. Front tires still get traction!

Gotcha. I've been in Denver for 30 years and most of my daily drivers were FWD vehicles, with all season tires on them. Only got stuck a handful of times while doing pizza delivery.

ab348

The car industry is in flux right now. All of the mandates for EVs issued by govts (here in Canada you need to have at least one in your lineup to be able to sell IC vehicles at some point in the near future, not sure about USA laws) and the supposed total phase-out of gas vehicles a few years later forced manufacturers to develop EVs for which there was little market and constraints on both materials and technology. The high prices meant that only the true believers bought them. Recent reports stated that Ford lost $132K on each of the 10,000 EVs it sold in the first quarter of 2024. That is worst-case accounting but they certainly aren't making money on them because they aren't selling many. No surprise - Acura just introduced its all-electric SUV here, based on the GM Ultium platform, with a sticker price of $90K in worthless Canadian dollars.

The market has evolved and now many people want a hybrid or a plug-in hybrid. I know the latter would be ideal for me given my driving pattern. Unfortunately they are very hard to get. Up here I hear tales of a 2-year wait list for Toyota PHEVs. Manufacturers are simultaneously lobbying govts to change their EV mandates and trying to pivot away from the EVs they spent billions to develop and move into PHEVs to satify market demands. It is a mess.

The Maverick is an interesting case. At introduction the FWD hybrid was the entry level version while the Ecoboost (which was AWD-only here in Canada) was the premium powertrain. Ford has now reversed that and you can buy the AWD Ecoboost here for less money than the FWD hybrid, which has a very long waitlist. I think the same is now true in the USA.

dino001

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

dino001 said:

Being so heavily promoted/subsidized/mandated as they currently are, EV push in current form is one of the biggest combination of government waste of resources and "trickle up" wealth scam preyed on lower classes. From ridiculous phase-out target dates, to strain on the infrastructure, to unsolved problems like charging when you live in a multiapartment complex, to simple lies you hear about how great these things are for the planet. Of course all that devastation in Africa, Asia and South America cobalt or lithium mines doesn't count, it's not visible, hence it doesn't exist. Congolese children send their thanks for their great green jobs in cobalt mines.

Exactly, well stated and there are many more problems that won't be solved by the deadline date. Not to get into the political aspects but I think it is a way of controlling the population....if it was so great it would grow on it's own, without deadlines, without subsidizing, without removing choice. I don't like the way it is being forced on us, and the numbers don't hold up....sales are falling off....what are they going to do now?

Perhaps we need precautions like when gas cars were the new technology and the law required someone walk in front of the car with a bell to warn horse riders that it was coming.🤪

As funny as it is, it's not quite analogous. Nobody was forcing people to buy automobiles, government could not care less back then what you rode or drove. The automobiles were seen as potentially disruptive to peoples' live, hence such ideas. The criticism of EVs is not about forbidding them, or putting some artificial roadblocks, it's quite the opposite - misguided government actions pushing them on public, with artificial market distortions that promote waste of resources, unsolved problems with mass adoption, and massive deception perpetrated on the public that this will somehow solve humanity's existential problems. It's quite one thing if Elon Musk promotes his Tesla and he succeeds or goes bust (with all benefits or tragedy of people involved) due to correct or incorrect market read, quite another when Secretary of Transportation, Congress, or some state governments tell people that in 2035 they won't be able to buy a certain product just because they "feel" it will be good for the country, humanity and the planet, without proper research, without proper cost analysis, just like that skier dude from Alaska in Senate climate hearings knows things are melting, so he "knows" that "doing something" is somehow better than "doing nothing", which will only accomplish that he and his compadres will feel better about themselves, but not necessarily solve anything, but quite likely make things worse.

ab348

You have described Canada's federal govt perfectly, Dino, and not just on EV policies but many others.

tjc78

Am I against electric vehicles? No. Would I lease a heavily discounted & subsidized EV? Yes.

Hmm…. I know someone who did that 😜😜

driver100

Am I against electric vehicles? No. Would I lease a heavily discounted & subsidized EV? Yes.

Haven't thought about it but I have heard knowledgeable people say used EVs won't be worth much. You don't know how long the battery is going to last and the cost of a replacement battery will be more than the car is worth!

And, before you reply, no, I wouldn't say that about a gasser.

nyccarguy

driver100 said:

Am I against electric vehicles? No. Would I lease a heavily discounted & subsidized EV? Yes.

Haven't thought about it but I have heard knowledgeable people say used EVs won't be worth much. You don't know how long the battery is going to last and the cost of a replacement battery will be more than the car is worth!

And, before you reply, no, I wouldn't say that about a gasser.

I wouldn't buy a used EV.

oldfarmer50

nyccarguy said:

dino001 said:

Being so heavily promoted/subsidized/mandated as they currently are, EV push in current form is one of the biggest combination of government waste of resources and "trickle up" wealth scam preyed on lower classes. From ridiculous phase-out target dates, to strain on the infrastructure, to unsolved problems like charging when you live in a multiapartment complex, to simple lies you hear about how great these things are for the planet. Of course all that devastation in Africa, Asia and South America cobalt or lithium mines doesn't count, it's not visible, hence it doesn't exist. Congolese children send their thanks for their great green jobs in cobalt mines.

I couldn't agree more with your post. Don't forget the abundance of natural resources used in order to extract the cobalt and lithium. Also, the tremendous amount of jobs when it comes to gasoline. Oil rig workers, workers at the gasoline refinery, the truck drivers, the gas station owners, their employees... and that's just scratching the surface.

Am I against electric vehicles? No. Would I lease a heavily discounted & subsidized EV? Yes.

My son texted me this picture when he got to school yesterday. He was excited that his Wrangler didn’t use a drop of gas on his way to school.

Given NY’s and CT’s high electric rates have you ever calculated the mpg equivalent for running on electric only?

tjc78

@driver100 said:
Haven't thought about it but I have heard knowledgeable people say used EVs won't be worth much. You don't know how long the battery is going to last and the cost of a replacement battery will be more than the car is worth!

And, before you reply, no, I wouldn't say that about a gasser.

Heavily subsidized when new naturally affects resale values. No different than any other vehicle.

Going back to the Domestic vs Import discussions we used to have. Everyone swore imports had such higher resale value based off of MSRP. Well yes they did but when you would compare prices paid that delta shrunk significantly. Domestics tended to be heavier handed with discounts and rebates (inflated MSRPs) than imports

dino001

stickguy said:

I am a big fan now of hybrids. And I just have a mild one. I would absolutely look to get a plug in for our next car, if not a full EV. For most of our use, a plug in would effectively be an EV, just never having to worry about range anxiety!

The powertrain in the Maverick is so seamless that if you did not know it was a hybrid you probably wouldn't even realize it (especially if you were not a "car person"). Other than looking at the trip computer on a 200" long pick up, and seeing it averaging 43 MPG. Having had both versions, the hybrid is actually smoother and quieter.

Hybrids look OK, but some may have their economic benefits overstated. If ICE Lexus NX starts 42 grand and hybrid starts at 46, i.e. at 4 grand premium, this may generally work well as we're going from 26 to 39 combined mpg (declared) plus extra umph, so it work out alright in a few years of owner's experience. But PHEV version starts 62 grand and there is no time period in which 20 grand can be worked out in lifetime of the vehicle even if electricity was free (it's not) and the owner drove mostly on electric charge, i.e. short commutes and errands, as I'd expect depreciation to hit a wall once the battery is depleted or others may think it is near that (say at 10 years?).

oldfarmer50

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

dino001 said:

Being so heavily promoted/subsidized/mandated as they currently are, EV push in current form is one of the biggest combination of government waste of resources and "trickle up" wealth scam preyed on lower classes. From ridiculous phase-out target dates, to strain on the infrastructure, to unsolved problems like charging when you live in a multiapartment complex, to simple lies you hear about how great these things are for the planet. Of course all that devastation in Africa, Asia and South America cobalt or lithium mines doesn't count, it's not visible, hence it doesn't exist. Congolese children send their thanks for their great green jobs in cobalt mines.

Exactly, well stated and there are many more problems that won't be solved by the deadline date. Not to get into the political aspects but I think it is a way of controlling the population....if it was so great it would grow on it's own, without deadlines, without subsidizing, without removing choice. I don't like the way it is being forced on us, and the numbers don't hold up....sales are falling off....what are they going to do now?

Perhaps we need precautions like when gas cars were the new technology and the law required someone walk in front of the car with a bell to warn horse riders that it was coming.🤪

As funny as it is, it's not quite analogous. Nobody was forcing people to buy automobiles, government could not care less back then what you rode or drove. The automobiles were seen as potentially disruptive to peoples' live, hence such ideas. The criticism of EVs is not about forbidding them, or putting some artificial roadblocks, it's quite the opposite - misguided government actions pushing them on public, with artificial market distortions that promote waste of resources, unsolved problems with mass adoption, and massive deception perpetrated on the public that this will somehow solve humanity's existential problems. It's quite one thing if Elon Musk promotes his Tesla and he succeeds or goes bust (with all benefits or tragedy of people involved) due to correct or incorrect market read, quite another when Secretary of Transportation, Congress, or some state governments tell people that in 2035 they won't be able to buy a certain product just because they "feel" it will be good for the country, humanity and the planet, without proper research, without proper cost analysis, just like that skater dude from Alaska in Senate climate hearings knows things are melting, so he "knows" that "doing something" is somehow better than "doing nothing", which will only accomplish that he and his compadres will feel better about themselves, but not necessarily solve anything, but quite likely make things worse.

I couldn’t have said it better myself. I also oppose cars that spy on me or that somebody can turn off while I’m driving.

nyccarguy

@oldfarmer50

Honestly, I have not. I don't even think I would know how to go about it.

dino001

tjc78 said:

Going back to the Domestic vs Import discussions we used to have. Everyone swore imports had such higher resale value based off of MSRP. Well yes they did but when you would compare prices paid that delta shrunk significantly. Domestics tended to be heavier handed with discounts and rebates (inflated MSRPs) than imports

Heavy discounts on domestics were certainly distorting the depreciation outlook. This is of course all precovid, as 2021-23 all market rules were suspended, as some vehicles even rose in value for some time. We should have a relative normalcy return by end of 2024 barred some new calamity. I think that depreciation off MSRP will hit domestics even harder this time, as they all raised the prices and manufactured mostly high-priced trims for good two years, filling dealers' lots with "luxury" half-ton trucks (by price at least) until they finally ran out of customers for them at these prices, which everybody with a small brain could see they would, but Detroit marketing geniuses still seem to not be able to recognize or perhaps acknowledge it.

explorerx4

Got the Explorer serviced today using my FordPass points again.
It started out bad because the online appt I booked didn't show up.
Maybe I needed to do one more step because I never got a confirmation text, which I didn't think of until he told me about having no appointment for me in the system.
The slot was still open so the SA booked it.
All done in about an hour, so I was pretty happy about that.
I saw that there were 8 Mavericks on the lot when I was leaving.

stickguy

IMO the hybrid analysis is not just comparing sticker cost. The hybrid is an upgraded power train. And those usually cost more (just ask BMW).

pensfan83

These dates 10-15 year in the future are targets and are as easily rescinded as they were passed into law.

jmonroe1

driver100 said:

jmonroe1 said:

nyccarguy said:

@driver100 said:

I am not against EVs. I don't like them being forced on us especially when the infrastructure won't support 100% EVs by 2030 or whatever they think.

EVs are great in certain circumstances. Too much has gone wrong and the problems have to get sorted out. Like losing 40% of power in cold weather.

I think there is a better way to phase it in.

btw.....EVs aren't selling very well, as predicted.

I don't like them being forced on us like they did with backup cameras

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That’s a bad example. @driver100 is probably still trying to figure out how to get a backup camera installed in his Florida Benz.

jmonroe

I have accepted the fact that I am not going to have a backup camera in the C250, but it gives me good practice at backing up without the help of a camera....you guys may lose that particular skill.
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It’s like riding a bike…some skills are never lost. You might not be able to ride as fast as when you were younger but parking is not a speed thing, to a point.

BTW, don’t give up on technology because it has a way of biting you in the you know what when you do.

jmonroe

jmonroe1

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

dino001 said:

Being so heavily promoted/subsidized/mandated as they currently are, EV push in current form is one of the biggest combination of government waste of resources and "trickle up" wealth scam preyed on lower classes. From ridiculous phase-out target dates, to strain on the infrastructure, to unsolved problems like charging when you live in a multiapartment complex, to simple lies you hear about how great these things are for the planet. Of course all that devastation in Africa, Asia and South America cobalt or lithium mines doesn't count, it's not visible, hence it doesn't exist. Congolese children send their thanks for their great green jobs in cobalt mines.

Exactly, well stated and there are many more problems that won't be solved by the deadline date. Not to get into the political aspects but I think it is a way of controlling the population....if it was so great it would grow on it's own, without deadlines, without subsidizing, without removing choice. I don't like the way it is being forced on us, and the numbers don't hold up....sales are falling off....what are they going to do now?

Perhaps we need precautions like when gas cars were the new technology and the law required someone walk in front of the car with a bell to warn horse riders that it was coming.🤪

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Now I know what prompted the invention of the car horn.

jmonroe

dino001

pensfan83 said:

These dates 10-15 year in the future are targets and are as easily rescinded as they were passed into law.

Nevertheless they create artificial waste of resources, as some companies and government agencies will take them literally in the meantime. Just ask Europeans and their Fit for 55 package, what it's doing to transportation, agriculture and housing. Cities are buying electric bus fleets to meet mandates (I heard NYC did same thing) that don't have range to operate on their routes during winter, for example. People will soon need a "energy efficiency certificate" to sell their own house, and later they won't be able to sell it if it's "too low" on the scale, i.e. they'll either have to put money they don't have for energy efficiency improvements or perhaps cede its title to somebody who has the money. Real estate funds are already licking their chops on prospect of taking houses from under people. Farmers were already being told to lay over the land until massive protests put that mandate on the back burner.

dino001

stickguy said:

IMO the hybrid analysis is not just comparing sticker cost. The hybrid is an upgraded power train. And those usually cost more (just ask BMW).

True, but the added cost needs to justify the benefit. 5 grand premium can be justified, in my opinion, 20 grand probably not at the moment, not economically anyway. If you get it because you like it and can afford it, more power to you, that's a different discussion. I like that NX PHEV, but if I ever get it, I won't fool myself that I did it to save on gas.