Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

roadburner

nyccarguy said:

dino001 said:

Being so heavily promoted/subsidized/mandated as they currently are, EV push in current form is one of the biggest combination of government waste of resources and "trickle up" wealth scam preyed on lower classes. From ridiculous phase-out target dates, to strain on the infrastructure, to unsolved problems like charging when you live in a multiapartment complex, to simple lies you hear about how great these things are for the planet. Of course all that devastation in Africa, Asia and South America cobalt or lithium mines doesn't count, it's not visible, hence it doesn't exist. Congolese children send their thanks for their great green jobs in cobalt mines.

I couldn't agree more with your post. Don't forget the abundance of natural resources used in order to extract the cobalt and lithium. Also, the tremendous amount of jobs when it comes to gasoline. Oil rig workers, workers at the gasoline refinery, the truck drivers, the gas station owners, their employees... and that's just scratching the surface.

Am I against electric vehicles? No. Would I lease a heavily discounted & subsidized EV? Yes.

My son texted me this picture when he got to school yesterday. He was excited that his Wrangler didn’t use a drop of gas on his way to school.

My JLU 4xe is the perfect fit for our needs; average fuel economy north of 50 mpg (with a high of 107 mpg) and the off-road capability that we need around the farm. That said, for a road car I'd want some serious performance to steer me towards a PHEV- the 2025 E53 comes to mind, as does the 2025 M5 Touring.

jmonroe1

nyccarguy said:

jmonroe1 said:

nyccarguy said:

@driver100 said:

I am not against EVs. I don't like them being forced on us especially when the infrastructure won't support 100% EVs by 2030 or whatever they think.

EVs are great in certain circumstances. Too much has gone wrong and the problems have to get sorted out. Like losing 40% of power in cold weather.

I think there is a better way to phase it in.

btw.....EVs aren't selling very well, as predicted.

I don't like them being forced on us like they did with backup cameras

————————————————-
That’s a bad example. @driver100 is probably still trying to figure out how to get a backup camera installed in his Florida Benz.

jmonroe

Whoops! My bad. I didn't realize. Oh well. Too late to retract or edit my post. I'll have to be mindful of that in future posts.
————————————————-
Not necessarily. He enjoys it when his poster buddies rub it in.

jmonroe

jmonroe1

nyccarguy said:

dino001 said:

Being so heavily promoted/subsidized/mandated as they currently are, EV push in current form is one of the biggest combination of government waste of resources and "trickle up" wealth scam preyed on lower classes. From ridiculous phase-out target dates, to strain on the infrastructure, to unsolved problems like charging when you live in a multiapartment complex, to simple lies you hear about how great these things are for the planet. Of course all that devastation in Africa, Asia and South America cobalt or lithium mines doesn't count, it's not visible, hence it doesn't exist. Congolese children send their thanks for their great green jobs in cobalt mines.

I couldn't agree more with your post. Don't forget the abundance of natural resources used in order to extract the cobalt and lithium. Also, the tremendous amount of jobs when it comes to gasoline. Oil rig workers, workers at the gasoline refinery, the truck drivers, the gas station owners, their employees... and that's just scratching the surface.

Am I against electric vehicles? No. Would I lease a heavily discounted & subsidized EV? Yes.

My son texted me this picture when he got to school yesterday. He was excited that his Wrangler didn’t use a drop of gas on his way to school.

————————————————
Yeah but look how long it took him to go 12 miles. A gas engine would have gotten him to school on time.

jmonroe

oldfarmer50

pensfan83 said:

These dates 10-15 year in the future are targets and are as easily rescinded as they were passed into law.

I agree, it’s all political. One party sets unrealistic deadlines to please their voters and then the other party gets in and recinds them to to please their own voters.

driver100

tjc78 said:

@driver100 said:

Haven't thought about it but I have heard knowledgeable people say used EVs won't be worth much. You don't know how long the battery is going to last and the cost of a replacement battery will be more than the car is worth!

And, before you reply, no, I wouldn't say that about a gasser.

Heavily subsidized when new naturally affects resale values. No different than any other vehicle.

Going back to the Domestic vs Import discussions we used to have. Everyone swore imports had such higher resale value based off of MSRP. Well yes they did but when you would compare prices paid that delta shrunk significantly. Domestics tended to be heavier handed with discounts and rebates (inflated MSRPs) than imports

But that doesn't help the guy who is going to buy a used EV. The problem is no one is sure how long a battery really costs, and there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer about how much a replacement battery is going to cost.
I'd want to know the answer to those questions plus a few more before I'd buy one. Regular batteries seem to die after about 6 years no matter how much they are used.....what about EV batteries, do they expire from usage or also time?

driver100

dino001 said:

stickguy said:

IMO the hybrid analysis is not just comparing sticker cost. The hybrid is an upgraded power train. And those usually cost more (just ask BMW).

True, but the added cost needs to justify the benefit. 5 grand premium can be justified, in my opinion, 20 grand probably not at the moment, not economically anyway. If you get it because you like it and can afford it, more power to you, that's a different discussion. I like that NX PHEV, but if I ever get it, I won't fool myself that I did it to save on gas.

Apparently it takes 7 years of use to break even if you compare the cost of driving an EV to driving a gasser. But, they forgot to calculate what the EV will be worth after 7 years....depends on how long batteries last, and how much a replacement will cost. And a big factor....these items usually improve or come down in price eventually, which might make resale values even less.

dino001

I wonder if these 7 years include home installation of the 240V charger with all electrical upgrades, which can cost a few thousands. I also wonder about price of electricity should say 20 percent of home owners get EV. You mention the drop in value, same applies to repair costs of non warranty items, seems like prices are pretty penny. Oh - how about new tires every 15-20 thousand miles at quite a bit higher unit prices, higher even than RFTs for my 430, as they need high load ratings.

roadburner

dino001 said:

I wonder if these 7 years include home installation of the 240V charger with all electrical upgrades, which can cost a few thousands. I also wonder about price of electricity should say 20 percent of home owners get EV. You mention the drop in value, same applies to repair costs of non warranty items, seems like prices are pretty penny. Oh - how about new tires every 15-20 thousand miles at quite a bit higher unit prices, higher even than RFTs for my 430, as they need high load ratings.

That's why I like PHEVs; my 4xe charges overnight using a Level 1 EVSE. The Mopar extended warranty was dirt cheap and doesn't expire until 2029. As for tires, I think I will get at least 40k miles out of them- which beats the C43; the Contis on the front only lasted 14k miles.

nyccarguy

@dino001 said:
I wonder if these 7 years include home installation of the 240V charger with all electrical upgrades, which can cost a few thousands. I also wonder about price of electricity should say 20 percent of home owners get EV. You mention the drop in value, same applies to repair costs of non warranty items, seems like prices are pretty penny. Oh - how about new tires every 15-20 thousand miles at quite a bit higher unit prices, higher even than RFTs for my 430, as they need high load ratings.

I’m able to charge our 4xe Wrangler on a regular 120v outlet. If I had a full EV, I’d want a Level 2 charger. That’s an electrical project WAY above my pay grade that I’m not willing to take on.

You have a choice of which gas station you buy from. I usually go to the same shell station. Mobil or Sunoco. With an EV, you are giving more money to the electric company.

stickguy

I had a 220 outlet put in the garage. for future use.

laurasdada

Same, no L2 charger at home. PHEV the 110 is fine for overnight charge. Which I did last night, forgot to unplug as early as I meant too. It was still charging when I got to it, showing 31 miles of range. Must be the warm weather.

oldfarmer50

driver100 said:

tjc78 said:

@driver100 said:

Haven't thought about it but I have heard knowledgeable people say used EVs won't be worth much. You don't know how long the battery is going to last and the cost of a replacement battery will be more than the car is worth!

And, before you reply, no, I wouldn't say that about a gasser.

Heavily subsidized when new naturally affects resale values. No different than any other vehicle.

Going back to the Domestic vs Import discussions we used to have. Everyone swore imports had such higher resale value based off of MSRP. Well yes they did but when you would compare prices paid that delta shrunk significantly. Domestics tended to be heavier handed with discounts and rebates (inflated MSRPs) than imports

But that doesn't help the guy who is going to buy a used EV. The problem is no one is sure how long a battery really costs, and there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer about how much a replacement battery is going to cost.
I'd want to know the answer to those questions plus a few more before I'd buy one. Regular batteries seem to die after about 6 years no matter how much they are used.....what about EV batteries, do they expire from usage or also time?


I just bought a lithium battery jump pack and it say itis good for 1000 charge cycles. When you have to top up the charge every 3 months it should last indefinitely but if you were charging it every day, 1000 charges would be reached in 3 years.

Now, can you make a direct comparison between jump pack batteries and EV batteries? I don’t know. My former doctor who drives a 5 year old Tesla said his range has decreased over time so there must be some theoretical limit before the battery gives up.

driver100

@oldfarmer50
. My former doctor who drives a 5 year old Tesla said his range has decreased over time so there must be some theoretical limit before the battery gives up.

I wonder if it will be like old tires, and there will be a disposal fee for your old battery....that should be a whopper.

stickguy

I watched a really good video on the aging wheels channel. He does a lot with EV stuff and did an update on his ownership experience (I think 2 year mark) on his polestar. Which much to drivers amazement he road trips all over!

Anyway he talked about the battery situation and what is normal and IIRC it was in the 10% range for degradation over 100k miles. And oddly the drop is steeper early on then slows down over time.

So yes you will lose some range but it is not excessive. And most people aren’t likely to put big miles per year on one.

stickguy

Found confirmation!

explorerx4

A couple of my ICE vehicles got their best fuel mileage around 110K.

oldfarmer50

explorerx4 said:

A couple of my ICE vehicles got their best fuel mileage around 110K.

My Kia started getting better mileage a few weeks ago to the tune if 3 or so mpg better. 25k on the odo. Summer gas blend maybe?

ab348

To be fair, any info an advocacy group presents on the subject they are cheerleading for is probably a best-case scenario.

stickguy

All the google links get the same basic answer. That one just happened to be easily clippable.

dino001

From what I understand the drop in battery capacity is quite sensitive to conditions of service, from temperatures of storage and charging, to percentage of storage left and charged up to. Even some things like differences in the ambient temperature (hot-cold) and percent capacity (full-empty-half) when you leave your car parked for more than a few days may influence the deterioration by significant margins. I somehow find hard to believe it's only 10 percent if my iphone battery lost 18 percent of maximum capacity in about five years of rather gentle usage.

explorerx4

Hertz can't seem to get out of their own way sometimes.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/hertz-charges-tesla-model-3-renter-277-fee-for-gas-won-t-back-down/ar-BB1m3CCA?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=6939dd60c6934852a447f3de4dafe8e5&ei=22

Michaell

May be behind a paywall, but the Malibu is being retired.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/08/business/general-motors-chevy-malibu-electric-vehicles.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

roadburner

We didn't really get any bad storms last night, but there was still a dead tree across the drive this morning. I easily pulled it out of the way. Despite the weather remaining calm another tree fell just in time to block the drive for my wife's small group from church. They were good sports and walked the rest of the way in. When I got home a few minutes with a chainsaw took care of most of the tree and the Wrangler pulled the main trunk off the road. Not my favorite thing to do after a revocation docket, but it's worth it not to have any neighbors.

28firefighter

You had me at “no neighbors.”

venture

ab348 said:

To be fair, any info an advocacy group presents on the subject they are cheerleading for is probably a best-case scenario.

"he's heard of"... Now there's real proof.

jmonroe1

stickguy said:

All the google links get the same basic answer. That one just happened to be easily clippable.

————————————————
I don’t expect you to link all or very much of the info on Google about EV battery degradation over time/miles but I’m willing to bet for every EV battery that lost only 10% of its charge in 100K miles there are at least that many that lost twice that much.

jmonroe

jmonroe1

explorerx4 said:

Hertz can't seem to get out of their own way sometimes.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/hertz-charges-tesla-model-3-renter-277-fee-for-gas-won-t-back-down/ar-BB1m3CCA?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=6939dd60c6934852a447f3de4dafe8e5&ei=22

————————————————
The guy said he doubts he can win a dispute against Hertz through his CC company. Maybe things have changed but I won 2 disputes rather easily years ago. My CC company used the same logical reasoning I did when I told them why I wanted to dispute the charges. So, charging for gas with an all electric car should be easy to win unless things have drastically changed over the years.

jmonroe

graphicguy

Been away awhile. Good to see some of the familiar faces around here.

Feels like a homecoming.

Still have my Accord Hybrid. ~25K miles, which is something of a record for me given all the flipping I did when you could buy something, drive it for a little while, and flip it for a profit. Can't do that anymore.

Getting about 42-44 MPG in general. Got 48 MPG in ALL CITY driving one tankful.

Great road car....have done a couple of trips in it. Typical Honda....doesn't do any one thing great, but does all things well.

Can't remember where I left off....retired from my career at AMD. Went back under contract a few times. Finally decided my desire to go and do as I please, when I please, overtook the money they offered.

Spent a month in Europe last October. Truly could live in Tuscany if I wasn't such a chicken to up and move.

There...all caught up. See, that was painless and didn't take long.

Hope y'all are well.

laurasdada

BMW Genius', I need your expertise (@roadburner, perhaps):

I loaded a bunch of music to the M240 hard drive. Then downloaded said muzak to a thumb drive, of course the files are in "BMW" format, not playable outside of the Bimmer (will try to upload them to the wife's X3, when time allows).
Have any of you used, or is there a legit, file converter to MP3? I've found a couple of references online, but would prefer real-world, trusted experience.
Thanks in advance!

And welcome back GG! Sounds like a nice aha moment and way to realize it. I'll probably do the same, substituting Costco for Europe given my depleted funds, but full garage...

mjfloyd1

@graphicguy said:
Been away awhile. Good to see some of the familiar faces around here.

Feels like a homecoming.

Still have my Accord Hybrid. ~25K miles, which is something of a record for me given all the flipping I did when you could buy something, drive it for a little while, and flip it for a profit. Can't do that anymore.

Getting about 42-44 MPG in general. Got 48 MPG in ALL CITY driving one tankful.

Great road car....have done a couple of trips in it. Typical Honda....doesn't do any one thing great, but does all things well.

Can't remember where I left off....retired from my career at AMD. Went back under contract a few times. Finally decided my desire to go and do as I please, when I please, overtook the money they offered.

Spent a month in Europe last October. Truly could live in Tuscany if I wasn't such a chicken to up and move.

There...all caught up. See, that was painless and didn't take long.

Hope y'all are well.

Welcome back GG

roadburner

mjfloyd1 said:

Welcome back GG

Ditto!

roadburner

@laurasdada: I didn't deal with that, so I'm no help. Sorry.

venture

roadburner said:

@laurasdada: I didn't deal with that, so I'm no help. Sorry.

But BMW format. Why????

jmonroe1

@graphicguy, welcome back. I guess you missed us or should I say me.

jmonroe

jmonroe1

venture said:

roadburner said:

@laurasdada: I didn't deal with that, so I'm no help. Sorry.

But BMW format. Why????

————————————————-
Best answer…because.

jmonroe

dino001

laurasdada said:

Same, no L2 charger at home. PHEV the 110 is fine for overnight charge. Which I did last night, forgot to unplug as early as I meant too. It was still charging when I got to it, showing 31 miles of range. Must be the warm weather.

PHEVs are fine for regular outlets, indeed, their battery is small enough to charge up overnight without much of juice, but full EV you need much more oomph from your circuits. The original comment was for supposed 7-year return on EV claimed by some advocacy group, which I questioned. I think it may actually work if you buy some of those things slightly used after brutal depreciation they experienced in last couple of years, Teslas or other full EVs.

I also think PHEV are nice as a concept, they are just still too expensive to justify them as "money saving" purchases with their high premium over ICE or even "regular" non-plugin hybrids, at least this was the case for Lexus NX models. NX450h PHEV is (sticker) 20 grand more expensive than NX350h and 25 grand more than NX250). 450h is much faster and perhaps has some more standard equipment than 250 or 350h, but so far Lexus didn't show real money saving proposition here. Fuel price difference come to about 2 grand of savings per year, so 20+ grand difference in purchase price means 10 years, say eight if they hold their value in similar way. We don't know today if they actually will, their record is too short and the market is changing fast.

dino001

laurasdada said:

BMW Genius', I need your expertise (@roadburner, perhaps):

I loaded a bunch of music to the M240 hard drive. Then downloaded said muzak to a thumb drive, of course the files are in "BMW" format, not playable outside of the Bimmer (will try to upload them to the wife's X3, when time allows).
Have any of you used, or is there a legit, file converter to MP3? I've found a couple of references online, but would prefer real-world, trusted experience.
Thanks in advance!

And welcome back GG! Sounds like a nice aha moment and way to realize it. I'll probably do the same, substituting Costco for Europe given my depleted funds, but full garage...

What is "BMW format"? FLAC? These are not BMW format, just generic lossless format analogous to FLAC used by Apple today. It's an equivalent of compressing normal WAV file (like your CD songs) without losing anything, similar to computer zip files. Current players are fast enough to decode these compressed files on the fly, so no need to go with MP3, which is an ancient lossy format. If you have even marginal musical hearing, you'd be in real pain listening to them if you are used to your CDs. I know I was, many years ago I purchased and downloaded an mp3 formated album - never felt more ripped off in my life, as the sound quality was just absolutely unbearable to me. Not sure of size of your HD on your vehicle, but I wouldn't even bother trying to convert it. I'd download it to a thumb drive, stick it to the USB port and play it that way.

I think I bought once a conversion program to get from ALAC to FLAC, as my car didn't play Apple's files, but played FLAC, which effectively are almost the same thing. I think there are many free converters these days for mutliple audio file formats.

laurasdada

dino001 said:

laurasdada said:

Same, no L2 charger at home. PHEV the 110 is fine for overnight charge. Which I did last night, forgot to unplug as early as I meant too. It was still charging when I got to it, showing 31 miles of range. Must be the warm weather.

PHEVs are fine for regular outlets, indeed, their battery is small enough to charge up overnight without much of juice, but full full EV you need much more oomph from your circuits. The original comment was for supposed 7-year return on EV claimed by some advocacy group, which I questioned. I think it may actually work if you buy some of those things slightly used after brutal depreciation they experienced in last couple of years, Teslas or other full EVs.

I also think PHEV are nice as a concept, they are just still too expensive to justify them as "money saving" purchases with their high premium over ICE or even "regular" non-plugin hybrids, at least this was the case for Lexus NX models. NX450h PHEV is (sticker) 20 grand more expensive than NX350h and 25 grand more than NX250). 450h is much faster and perhaps has some more standard equipment than 250 or 350h, but so far Lexus didn't show real money saving proposition here. Fuel price difference come to about 2 grand of savings per year, so 20+ grand difference in purchase price means 10 years, say eight if they hold their value in similar way. We don't know today if they actually will, their record is too short and the market is changing fast.

That was what was nice about the A7 Premium Plus ICE vs. the PHEV, IIRC the MSRP price delta between the two was ~$800. Now, throw in the $6712 fed tax credit, (not to mention the $2k Audi rebate, $2k Costco rebate and 0% financing. As well as the poorly negotiated purchase price above invoice), not a bad deal for the joy of a Li-ion time bomb in the garage!

laurasdada

dino001 said:

laurasdada said:

BMW Genius', I need your expertise (@roadburner, perhaps):

I loaded a bunch of music to the M240 hard drive. Then downloaded said muzak to a thumb drive, of course the files are in "BMW" format, not playable outside of the Bimmer (will try to upload them to the wife's X3, when time allows).
Have any of you used, or is there a legit, file converter to MP3? I've found a couple of references online, but would prefer real-world, trusted experience.
Thanks in advance!

And welcome back GG! Sounds like a nice aha moment and way to realize it. I'll probably do the same, substituting Costco for Europe given my depleted funds, but full garage...

What is "BMW format"? FLAC? These are not BMW format, just generic lossless format analogous to FLAC used by Apple today. It's an equivalent of compressing normal WAV file (like your CD songs) without losing anything, similar to computer zip files. Current players are fast enough to decode these compressed files on the fly, so no need to go with MP3, which is an ancient lossy format. If you have even marginal musical hearing, you'd be in real pain listening to them if you are used to your CDs. I know I was, many years ago I purchased and downloaded an mp3 formated album - never felt more ripped off in my life, as the sound quality was just absolutely unbearable to me. Not sure of size of your HD on your vehicle, but I wouldn't even bother trying to convert it. I'd download it to a thumb drive, stick it to the USB port and play it that way.

I think I bought once a conversion program to get from ALAC to FLAC, as my car didn't play Apple's files, but played FLAC, which effectively are almost the same thing. I think there are many free converters these days for mutliple audio file formats.

E.G.: !CDA-Track0001.BR25

From CD to a non-recognized BMW format by media players...

From deep thought, the rationale is that one is exporting a backup of the BMW media files, not to joyfully listen to in the A7, but to restore to the M240 should the need arise.
Das logical und annoying.

The pain point is indeed ripping so many, many CDs to my laptop and copying to the thumb drive. I simply loaded CDs to the 20gb hard drive in the car as I drove merrily along.

Ich bin wrong, and likely not for the first time this life.

dino001

Ah...
Here what I found, when searched .BR25 in Google

"On the previous generation harddrives, BMW ripped CD content and saved it as a .BR25 or .BRx file. This file type is exclusive to the BMW brand, and as non-standard as that format is, there is a way forward. In the newer iteration of iDrive, media files will be saved as either .MP3 or .ACC, which is more user friendly and easier to transfer to a backup solution.

We searched and searched for a way to convert the .BR25 and .BRx files back so they can be used on the new iDrive, and fortunately there is a developer out there that has a proven solution. Matthias Rebbe is frequently mentioned in the forums and has a program called BRx converter that you can be downloaded at a minimal cost, and will help you transfer from iDrive 5 (or older) to iDrive 7".

https://www.matthiasrebbe.eu/software/brx/

laurasdada

Thanks, Dino. I found that mention, too. But was hoping for real world experience, perhaps here.

Gotta check out the wife's X3, if I"m able to upoload from thumb to her hard drive, wonder if it will be saved as mp3 or acc?

laurasdada

Nope, no hard drive in the X3. And it doesn't recognize the .br25 files either.
Thanks, Munchen!

roadburner

@laurasdada said:
That was what was nice about the A7 Premium Plus ICE vs. the PHEV, IIRC the MSRP price delta between the two was ~$800. Now, throw in the $6712 fed tax credit, (not to mention the $2k Audi rebate, $2k Costco rebate and 0% financing. As well as the poorly negotiated purchase price above invoice), not a bad deal for the joy of a Li-ion time bomb in the garage!

I live in abject fear as well, but I bought a used 4xe, which was only slightly more expensive than an equivalent gasser.
What cost me a lot of money was putting multiple smoke detectors in every room.
You can’t be too safe!

laurasdada

What, no Halon system throughout the house?
Truly, the year of living dangerously.

oldfarmer50

explorerx4 said:

Hertz can't seem to get out of their own way sometimes.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/hertz-charges-tesla-model-3-renter-277-fee-for-gas-won-t-back-down/ar-BB1m3CCA?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=6939dd60c6934852a447f3de4dafe8e5&ei=22

That’s quite odd but my buddy at Hertz indicated that their rental agreement for EVs has a provision that the car be returned fully charged. If not the customer is charged for the electricity and the time the vehicle is out of service.

That doesn’t explain why they would offer an option to not fill it up. Maybe that’s where the error occurred.

jmonroe1

oldfarmer50 said:

explorerx4 said:

Hertz can't seem to get out of their own way sometimes.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/hertz-charges-tesla-model-3-renter-277-fee-for-gas-won-t-back-down/ar-BB1m3CCA?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=6939dd60c6934852a447f3de4dafe8e5&ei=22

That’s quite odd but my buddy at Hertz indicated that their rental agreement for EVs has a provision that the car be returned fully charged. If not the customer is charged for the electricity and the time the vehicle is out of service.

That doesn’t explain why they would offer an option to not fill it up. Maybe that’s where the error occurred.

————————————————-
What a contract.

If the customer has to pay for the time the EV is out of service, I guess Hertz has no incentive to plug it in. Nice work if you can get it.

jmonroe

oldfarmer50

Michaell said:

May be behind a paywall, but the Malibu is being retired.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/08/business/general-motors-chevy-malibu-electric-vehicles.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Yeah, paywall but I had heard about 2024 being the last year for Malibu several years ago. To be honest I thought that they were only making them for fleet sales now. I know the company has a bunch of them.

Having said that, I also heard commercials from a local Chevy dealer touting their abundance of Malibus for sale. Maybe they bought up a bunch cheap before production stopped.

In my opinion, I think discontinuing an affordable sedan to concentrate on less affordable EVs on the cusp of a possible recession is a dumb move that they will regret.

snakeweasel

IMO the hybrid analysis is not just comparing sticker cost. The hybrid is an upgraded power train. And those usually cost more (just ask BMW).

A hybrid is a more complicated drive train as it combines two different drive trains into one. That's why it costs more, it's also why they can have more issues and cost more to repair.

kyfdx

Yeah, because the sedan market is really hopping..

mjfloyd1

Look what you can buy at O’Reilly auto parts

https://www.oreillyauto.com/flux-500.html?q=121g