Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

imidazol97

I've had it happen a few times, but I couldn't tell anything that specifically was the environment when it happened.

explorerx4

On the surface, 500k vehicles doesn't sound game changing, but if they are emitting up to 40x the limit, that's like 20 million!
I replaced my 16 yo gas water heater with one that has a power vent, so 3 inch or so tube to expel the exhaust gases. It doesn't use the flue.
You can get rid of the 'seed segment' thing by clicking the 'x' in the upper right corner of it.

imidazol97

About the instant hot water heater, friends just put one into their house in upper S. Carolina. He seems to love his. I'll ask if there's a downside. They have two teenagers and an elementary aged kids. So that should be a test in the morning getting ready for school as to high usage..

ab348

explorerx4 said:

You can get rid of the 'seed segment' thing by clicking the 'x' in the upper right corner of it.

I do that, but it always comes back next time.

andres3

I think VW should just re-brand each 2008-2015 model TDI as a 1991 model so it doesn't need to meet any emissions requirements, then pay for 25 years depreciation to each owner LOL>

isellhondas

40 times the limit?? Really?? I hadn't heard that. This means the fix will most likely really cut back on performance and mileage. I wouldn't want to be a shareholder in VW right now.

This is bigger than I thought.

ab348

isellhondas said:

40 times the limit?? Really?? I hadn't heard that. This means the fix will most likely really cut back on performance and mileage. I wouldn't want to be a shareholder in VW right now.

This is bigger than I thought.

Assuming (I know, I know) that M-B, BMW and others are able to make diesels that meet the emissions regs, I would have to think that VW would be able to as well. I can't understand why their cheating, if that's what it is, would need to exceed the limits by such a margin.

abacomike

isellhondas said:

40 times the limit?? Really?? I hadn't heard that. This means the fix will most likely really cut back on performance and mileage. I wouldn't want to be a shareholder in VW right now. This is bigger than I thought.

Isell, just think about the many, many tens of thousands of VW/Audi Diesel engine car owners who woke up one day to find their car dropped 50% in value for resale or trade.  Even with the "fix" who would want to drive a Diesel car that gets worse mpg's than an identical vehicle with a gasoline engine?

Now consider the thousands upon thousands of dealerships who not only have VW/Audi Diesel cars on their used car lots seriously depreciated, but also cannot sell them, fix or no fix.

Obviously, either VW compensates owners and dealers for "loss of value" or the courts will make them pay + legal costs.  Yes, this is very bad - some 500,000 vehicles, new and used worldwide are affected.

suydam

OTOH, those who own VW/ Audi vehicles with gas engines, the majority in this country, won't see any difference.

oldfarmer50

stever said:

That issue was reported in recent weeks. Not sure why it hasn't been fixed. It seems to be growing...

Edmunds has been hacked by the Chinese.

oldfarmer50

andres3 said:

I think VW should just re-brand each 2008-2015 model TDI as a 1991 model so it doesn't need to meet any emissions requirements, then pay for 25 years depreciation to each owner LOL>

That might be cheaper than the $37000 fine.

abacomike

suydam said:

OTOH, those who own VW/ Audi vehicles with gas engines, the majority in this country, won't see any difference.

VW's trustworthiness is going to come into question by the masses.  It will cause them lots of future business.  How far can we count on VW to have tested their gasoline engines properly?  I don't know, but that thought will be in the minds of car buyers as they pick out their new car in the coming weeks/months/years.  I certainly don't trust a company that conceals their fraudulent business practices and deceives the EPA and their customers.

verdugo

oldfarmer50 said:

robr2 said:

andres3 said:

Wait, if the vehicle gets the same fuel economy/gas mileage as before, then no harm has been done to the customers. It is simply the EPA looking foolish for doing arbitrary inaccurate tests. The purpose of a test is to pass it; VW/Audi appears to have done that.

Playing devil's advocate here. However, a manufacturer claiming inflated miles per gallon is directly stealing from a customer's wallet.

I think that MPG is the issue. I've read that in order for the VW 4 cylinder diesel to pass NOX testing it does so at a reduced fuel economy. Without the better fuel economy then VW diesels do not offer as MPG advantage over hybrids or even some regular gas vehicles.

IMHO, the fix for this will probably be the addition of an AdBlue system.

My new school bus has some weird pollution injection system they call DEF which puts some liquid into the exhaust system. It has it's own fuel tank and a seperate gauge on the dash. Don't have any idea how it works but all the mechanics say pollution controls and diesels don't belong together.

Dino said it perfectly. The Jeep Grand Cherokee uses DEF too. I was interested in the Diesel model until I read that the DEF tank was placed in a very vulnerable position and it could get damaged easily (think going over pot holes, forget going off roading.)

verdugo

qbrozen said:

jpp5862 said:

Our new home came with a tankless water heater, by far one of the best energy saving features ever.

Can I ask how big your home is and how many people live there?

I want to make the switch in our new house, but my installation company of choice tells me it isn't all it is cracked up to be. He says they have installed them and had people call to switch back because it can't keep up with demand. He also said something about, even with higher volume units, the natural gas coming into the home can't flow fast enough to get full effect from the unit.

In Mexico (where I grew up,) everybody has waterless water heaters. We never had a problem with running out of hot water (4 people in the house.)

An interesting aside to waterless water heaters, the one in my parents' new place wasn't working correctly. They called the company for warranty. The tech came and told them that it was a fake! They bought it at a reputable store. They ended up having to buy a new one.

verdugo

isellhondas said:

40 times the limit?? Really?? I hadn't heard that. This means the fix will most likely really cut back on performance and mileage. I wouldn't want to be a shareholder in VW right now.

This is bigger than I thought.

I wouldn't want to be a TDI owner right now.

I was seriously considering a Golf TDI, but my wife wanted an electric, so we went with the Fusion plug-in.

dino001

ab348 said:

isellhondas said:

40 times the limit?? Really?? I hadn't heard that. This means the fix will most likely really cut back on performance and mileage. I wouldn't want to be a shareholder in VW right now.

This is bigger than I thought.

Assuming (I know, I know) that M-B, BMW and others are able to make diesels that meet the emissions regs, I would have to think that VW would be able to as well. I can't understand why their cheating, if that's what it is, would need to exceed the limits by such a margin.

Or perhaps they all cheat? It is a possibility. There are some numbers from Europe suggesting that the tests there may have been systematically defeated (measured air pollution did not follow standard improvement at all). This may be politicians setting unrealistic standards and manufacturers cheating to stay in business. VW case looks particularly eggregious, though. If they missed the levels by a little, it would be one thing, but they clearly were willing to sacrifice even a decent emission performance to gain a few mog's and perhaps lb-ft of torque. Perhaps others cheat less. It's all speculation here, but this can be a feast day for regulators on both sides of the pond and trial lawyers on this one.

robr2

ab348 said:

isellhondas said:

40 times the limit?? Really?? I hadn't heard that. This means the fix will most likely really cut back on performance and mileage. I wouldn't want to be a shareholder in VW right now.

This is bigger than I thought.

Assuming (I know, I know) that M-B, BMW and others are able to make diesels that meet the emissions regs, I would have to think that VW would be able to as well. I can't understand why their cheating, if that's what it is, would need to exceed the limits by such a margin.

Probably because to have it meet emissions without using urea injection was not possible with adequate performance and fuel economy required by the marketplace.

robr2

dino001 said:

ab348 said:

isellhondas said:

40 times the limit?? Really?? I hadn't heard that. This means the fix will most likely really cut back on performance and mileage. I wouldn't want to be a shareholder in VW right now.

This is bigger than I thought.

Assuming (I know, I know) that M-B, BMW and others are able to make diesels that meet the emissions regs, I would have to think that VW would be able to as well. I can't understand why their cheating, if that's what it is, would need to exceed the limits by such a margin.

Or perhaps they all cheat? It is a possibility. There are some numbers from Europe suggesting that the tests there may have been systematically defeated (measured air pollution did not follow standard improvement at all). This may be politicians setting unrealistic standards and manufacturers cheating to stay in business. VW case looks particularly eggregious, though. If they missed the levels by a little, it would be one thing, but they clearly were willing to sacrifice even a decent emission performance to gain a few mog's and perhaps lb-ft of torque. Perhaps others cheat less. It's all speculation here, but this can be a feast day for regulators on both sides of the pond and trial lawyers on this one.

The same group that tested the VW also tested the BMW X5 Diesel. It passes the emissions test required by CARB using their sniffer test methods.

dino001

Good, so perhaps it was unique to them.

robr2

abacomike said:

isellhondas said:

40 times the limit?? Really?? I hadn't heard that. This means the fix will most likely really cut back on performance and mileage. I wouldn't want to be a shareholder in VW right now.

This is bigger than I thought.

Isell, just think about the many, many tens of thousands of VW/Audi Diesel engine car owners who woke up one day to find their car dropped 50% in value for resale or trade.  Even with the "fix" who would want to drive a Diesel car that gets worse mpg's than an identical vehicle with a gasoline engine?

Now consider the thousands upon thousands of dealerships who not only have VW/Audi Diesel cars on their used car lots seriously depreciated, but also cannot sell them, fix or no fix.

Obviously, either VW compensates owners and dealers for "loss of value" or the courts will make them pay + legal costs.  Yes, this is very bad - some 500,000 vehicles, new and used worldwide are affected.

500,000 vehicles is the number just in the US. Worldwide it's probably closer to 2-3 million units.

abacomike

@robr2:

If it's closer to 2 or 3 million vehicles worldwide and 500,000 vehicles are U.S., then this is even bigger than I thought.  

In GM's case, they just had to replace the pin in the ignition switches and pay claims to accident victims and surviving family members whose loved one died in an accident caused by the ignition shutting off the engine.  In this case, VW has to fix the software in each car and pay hundreds of thousands of dealerships and owners for loss of value.  It's going to cost VW not just the 18 billion to the government, but billions more in legal settlements and legal fees.  This was fraud, so there will be individuals paying millions who concealed the fraudulent tactics as well as probably some jail time.

berri

Audi is hot in the US, VW is not. I wonder if they will have different impacts from this situation? OTOH, I don't recall Ford having any long term impact from the Explorer debacle, or the burning vehicle and garages cruise control incidents from various Ford products.

I don't know what the life of a tankless water heater is versus a conventional one. The only real complaint I've heard about tankless is that if your bathroom or laundry is far from the tankless heater, like in some 2 stories, it can take a minute or two before you get hot water. Also, the tankless heater and it's installation tends to have a price premium over conventional. But I don't think that's a deal breaker for most consumers.

stickguy

"My new school bus has some weird pollution injection system they call DEF which puts some liquid into the exhaust system. It has it's own fuel tank and a seperate gauge on the dash. Don't have any idea how it works but all the mechanics say pollution controls and diesels don't belong together. "

farmer, that might be a bit different than the adblue on a car engine. I used to drive a diesel Frieghtliner (carting the HS band gear around). Big beast with a 26' box. I loved it! Anyway, this was in about 2007-2009. At the very end, they got in some brand new units that included emissions controls. I never scored one, but the desk guy (I saw him a lot) told me about it. All kinds of disclaimers about it. IIRC, you had to drive at a certain speed for a while, and if you didn't (or idled too long) it would shut off. And I think maybe if you were driving?

might have been something that happened automatically when driving, but under certain conditions needed to do manually (hey, it has been a while!)

I do know that idling was key. My father was a fire commisioner at the time, so dealt with buying trucks. The FD community was fighting like hell for an EPA exemption, because that is basically all those trucks do (short hops and idle). And shutting down while pumping, not good!

fezo

Back from Maine.

Just a quick gas mileage note. Took the Prius. Averaged 53 mpg. Filled at home and then again at destination. If we didn't have to eat or use the rest rooms (wash rooms for driver and ab) we could have gone point to point without stops. Well, stopping to say hi to my brother in Portland....

Did get to test drive his Volt. We figured out it's close to overall mpg as the Prius when you factor in the batter miles, it's miserably smaller in terms of passenger and cargo space but is a way superior car to drive. Nice electric acceleration - not a Tesla but very nice - and just a great handling car. If they made a wagon I'd look.

abacomike

I've had a tankless water heater for 10 years now - not gas but electric.  Works great, but I do not know how long these last.  I think I paid $650 back then which included installation and taking the old tank away.

fezo

These days those tankless systems are twice what a high efficiency gas water heater runs. Too bad. I wanted ti di that.

qbrozen

fezo said:

These days those tankless systems are twice what a high efficiency gas water heater runs. Too bad. I wanted ti di that.

Depends on what you compare. There are some conventional heaters that are on the cheaper side, but some aren't. For example, just looking at Lowes.com, I see from a low of $350 to $700 for a "12-year" conventional heater and even up to $1200 for a "hybrid." This is vs $550-$650 for a tankless.

I don't know the difference in installation, however.

fezo

When we were getting quotes the total job tended to be double for the tankless. I'd look further but now having a year old energy star tank I guess I'll keep it.

stever

berri said:

The only real complaint I've heard about tankless is that if your bathroom or laundry is far from the tankless heater, like in some 2 stories, it can take a minute or two before you get hot water.

A recirculating pump can help there. We have one just for our regular water heater for this smaller house (it's on a timer so it doesn't run 24/7).

VW needs to go big with hybrid and EVs if they want to survive this mess. Like so:

Electric Volkswagen Microbus On The Way? (gas2.org)

Then in 15 years we can talk about the mining waste scandal from getting the rare earth ores to the battery plants.

driver100

The VW situation is very bad and it seems to be affecting the stock market. Well, that's the company that cheated on our warranty on our manual transmission in our Audi so it seems to be a pattern. We still have the Passat but I don't think we'll be buying another VW/Audience product for awhile.

It is probably a good time to buy the stock........just like BP.......people forget and the stock will go back one day.

Observation at Amsterdam airport. Lots of taxis, about half are Mercedes, mostly E Class and about half are Teslas. That was a real surprise, though gas is probably close to S8 a gallon.

robr2

It's now much, much worse. VW announced last night that 11 million units worldwide are affected.

abacomike said:

@robr2:

If it's closer to 2 or 3 million vehicles worldwide and 500,000 vehicles are U.S., then this is even bigger than I thought.  

In GM's case, they just had to replace the pin in the ignition switches and pay claims to accident victims and surviving family members whose loved one died in an accident caused by the ignition shutting off the engine.  In this case, VW has to fix the software in each car and pay hundreds of thousands of dealerships and owners for loss of value.  It's going to cost VW not just the 18 billion to the government, but billions more in legal settlements and legal fees.  This was fraud, so there will be individuals paying millions who concealed the fraudulent tactics as well as probably some jail time.

robr2

stickguy said:

"My new school bus has some weird pollution injection system they call DEF which puts some liquid into the exhaust system. It has it's own fuel tank and a seperate gauge on the dash. Don't have any idea how it works but all the mechanics say pollution controls and diesels don't belong together. "

farmer, that might be a bit different than the adblue on a car engine. I used to drive a diesel Frieghtliner (carting the HS band gear around). Big beast with a 26' box. I loved it! Anyway, this was in about 2007-2009. At the very end, they got in some brand new units that included emissions controls. I never scored one, but the desk guy (I saw him a lot) told me about it. All kinds of disclaimers about it. IIRC, you had to drive at a certain speed for a while, and if you didn't (or idled too long) it would shut off. And I think maybe if you were driving?

might have been something that happened automatically when driving, but under certain conditions needed to do manually (hey, it has been a while!)

I do know that idling was key. My father was a fire commisioner at the time, so dealt with buying trucks. The FD community was fighting like hell for an EPA exemption, because that is basically all those trucks do (short hops and idle). And shutting down while pumping, not good!

That is a urea injection system (adblue) just like on a car. All trucks now have auto shutoff features to save fuel and reduce emissions. There are overrides to the systems so long haul drivers can run their heat and AC systems when parked.

graphicguy

stever said:

berri said:

The only real complaint I've heard about tankless is that if your bathroom or laundry is far from the tankless heater, like in some 2 stories, it can take a minute or two before you get hot water.

A recirculating pump can help there. We have one just for our regular water heater for this smaller house (it's on a timer so it doesn't run 24/7).

VW needs to go big with hybrid and EVs if they want to survive this mess. Like so:

Electric Volkswagen Microbus On The Way? (gas2.org)

Then in 15 years we can talk about the mining waste scandal from getting the rare earth ores to the battery plants.

Stever....I think you're right. Unless VW shifts, and shifts quickly, to EV, hybrid, etc technology, their diesel business will be all but dead if the EU find the same transgressions as the U.S. found against VW.

This is going to cost VW more than what Toyota paid for the unintended acceleration issues, as well as GM's ignition issues....probably more than both of those fines, combined.

That leaves VW owners holding the bag of a car with bad press, bad rep, and probably be resale kryptonite.

VW financials will feel this hit for a long, long time.

imidazol97

graphicguy said:

ir diesel business will be all but dead if the EU find the same transgressions as the U.S. found against VW.
This is going to cost VW more than what Toyota paid for the unintended acceleration issues, as well as GM's ignition issues....probably more than both of those fines, combined.
That leaves VW owners holding the bag of a car with bad press, bad rep, and probably be resale kryptonite.
VW financials will feel this hit for a long, long time.

VW/Audi has stalled this for a year against the EPA. That would be typical, in my opinion. But now, if VW seems eager to pay up, I'd start looking for other places where there are violations. They're fessing up to take attention away from looking for the other scandals--probably with them and with other companies as well.

imidazol97

I keep thinking there's a parallel between how VW/Audi turned on diesel pollution controls for the test that were off during normal driving, resulting in better gas mileage and performance and some comments about Audi's performance.

I've noticed some have commented that Audi's seem to be underrated for power based on driver feel--giving more power than the ratings showed during testing. What if the pollution controls present for the testing were on reducing the power output, but then those same controls are neutered during normal driving resulting in more horsepower and better performance. I realize one's diesel and the other is gas.

stever

I agree that it'd be good to spot check a bunch more cars in real world conditions, regardless of fuel type. Shouldn't be too hard to miniaturize some of the test components, if not the plumbing.

abacomike

@robr2 said:

"It's now much, much worse. VW announced last night that 11 million units worldwide are affected."

11 million vehicles, new and used, is going to be a nightmare, financially, for VW.  Wait until the EU begins assessing penalties along with other regions in the world. Then, there are 10.5 million owners of these vehicles outside the US who will probably enter a class action suit against VW.  Then, there are auto dealers that have to be dealt with.

IMHO, this could jeopardize VW's financial stability in the long-run.

What I fail to comprehend is the audacity or even common sense of VW's executives/engineers to commit fraud in the face of what other auto manufacturers have gone through for concealing defects (I.e. Toyota, GM, etc.) from the public and its government regulators.  Weren't they the least bit hesitant/worried/apprehensive that they would eventually be found out?

Big corporations like these (auto manufacturers) just don't see the long term affects of their decisions.  They are short-sighted due to the profit motive in the short run.  Besides, not only was this illegal, but in tort law, it will be costly and jeopardize the very future existence of the company.

As an example, I have no intention of going to a bank and robbing it of its money - not just because it is wrong - it is a sure fire way to spend many years in jail.  Thus, consequences cause most (not all) people to refrain from robbing banks - you eventually get caught and face the consequences.  

Thus, VW's decision to "cheat" the system was short-sighted without regard for the consequences to be faced in the long-run and have jeopardized the entire corporation's very existence in the future.

Does VW survive this?  Probably - but not certainly!

imidazol97

abacomike said:

What I fail to comprehend is the audacity or even common sense of VW's executives/engineers to commit fraud in the face of what other auto manufacturers have gone through for concealing defects (I.e. Toyota, GM, etc.) from the public and its government regulators.  Weren't they the least bit hesitant/worried/apprehensive that they would eventually be found out?

I suspect the motivation shows in what I read recently in another forum. Recall that recently I said here that people use a 1 mpg difference to state that car X is better than car Y. I just read in another forum someone's talking about midsized cars getting 37 mpg EPA, then being bested by another company's car getting 38, then a third company announcing their car "gets" 39 mpg. When consumers are focused like lasers on the small, scientifically insignificant differences from the testing, often done by the companies themselves, there's a lot of motivation to cheat.

A second point about that paragraph is that Toyota was rumored to have had a past employee working in NHTSA with the inference that the reports toyota did turn in were treated more favorably than they might have been by someone with a neutral eye. Perhaps VW/Audi had similar hopes.

imidazol97

Long ago when GM put the Oldsmobile diesel in Cadillacs, I was behind one that was smoking in village traffic. I was moving my hand in front of my face as if I was moving away the fog of smoke. The driver made arm movements to indicate that he saw me and wasn't happy, with me and probably not with the car.

I wonder if I'm behind a TDI VW/Audi if I make similar arm movements to clear the air would the driver catch onto the humor?

stever

abacomike said:

What I fail to comprehend is the audacity or even common sense of VW's executives/engineers to commit fraud in the face of what other auto manufacturers have gone through for concealing defects (I.e. Toyota, GM, etc.) from the public and its government regulators.

Seems like it's in VW's corporate DNA.

"Forty-one years ago, Volkswagen paid $120,000 to settle charges that it violated emission-control rules by placing a defeat device, which deactivated part of the emission control system, on some 1973 vehicles." (USA Today)

abacomike

Back in 1987, I bought a Mercedes 300 SDL Diesel.  It was the same car as the 560 SEL (top of the line) except for the engine.  That was the first year Mercedes used a trap oxidizer to eliminate the black smoke coming from the exhaust pipes of their Diesels.  The trap oxidizers did not perform as designed so Mercedes extended its warranty on the contraption for the life of the car.

I remember the odor coming from the exhaust and it was not pleasant.  Mercedes Diesels have long been a favorite in the rest of the world because of high gasoline prices coupled with better fuel economy of their Diesels.  

But I do remember when the Bluetec was introduced in the latter part of the 1st decade of the 2000's.  Fuel economy was only rated at 1-2 mpg better than their recently released direct injection gasoline engines.  I sincerely hope it was because they were honest in their test results for the EPA.  We talked about that here on one of the forums way back when - why buy a diesel Mercedes when the gasoline version had almost the same fuel economy?

robr2

It will be interesting, especially if the executives are held criminally culpable. Just yesterday, the owner of a peanut company in Georgia was sentenced to 28 years for knowingly shipping salmonella contaminated peanut products to companies like Kellogg's and to have falsified lab tests. 714 people were sickened and the deaths of 9 may be due to these products. He and his QA manager (she got 5 years) are responsible for $200 million in losses and his brother (20 years) is responsible for $50 million.

stever

That's a bit surprising since GM seems to have skated. Georgia must have stronger laws than Michigan or the feds (or is more willing to use them than Michigan).

"Criminalizing corporate misbehavior. When Preet Bharara, U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York, last week announced the government’s settlement with GM, he pointedly said there currently does not exist a specific law enabling criminal charges against a company for a product defect attributed to fatalities." (Detroit News)

snakeweasel

oldfarmer50 said:

snakeweasel said:

suydam said:

It's true, only time tells what kind of mileage you get. I've had cars that got significantly less mpg than claimed (I'm looking at you, '04 Mazda6 wagon) and some that got much better. But all things being equal, I'm generally looking to improve mpg with a new purchase. Not just to save $$ personally, but also to do my part for the environment. That's why fudging MPG numbers infuriates me. Consumers should have good info to make their choices. In the last few years I've found that the EPA numbers are pretty accurate and even underestimate the mpg.

I wonder how many people do things that create poor gas mileage and then complain about poor gas mileage. Case in point, last month I drove to the DC area doing 75 MPH or so and got well under the EPA est. But I have driven extraurban drives with mild acceleration and long stretches of 50 MPH or less and have blown away the EPA rating.

I had a coworker once bought a new Chevy and told me that he was getting nowhere near the EPA rating but he rarely drove more than 5 miles at a time (less than 4 miles to work) and understood that the car hardly had a chance to properly warm up.

That's the problem my wife has with her 4 cyl. Short trips 19mpg. My 8 cyl. cars get 23-24 unless I lend them to my kids. Then they get 15.

Here is another thing to consider but is harder to quantify, Sure that 35 MPG gets better gas mileage than that 30 MPG car, but if the 35 MPG car requires premium and the 30 MPG car only needs RUG then which one costs more money in gas to go a mile?

Currently here premium is going for 60 cents a gallon more than RUG. That means since I get about 22 MPG tooling around town in my ragtop I would need to get a little more than 27 MPG if I used premium to get the same distance per dollar spent in gas.

jpp75

qbrozen said:

jpp5862 said:

Our new home came with a tankless water heater, by far one of the best energy saving features ever.

Can I ask how big your home is and how many people live there?

I want to make the switch in our new house, but my installation company of choice tells me it isn't all it is cracked up to be. He says they have installed them and had people call to switch back because it can't keep up with demand. He also said something about, even with higher volume units, the natural gas coming into the home can't flow fast enough to get full effect from the unit.

We have around 3,100 sq Ft, but only two of us live here full time and I travel a bit, so our demand is rather low. However plenty of times when we've had company (up to 10 when all the in laws were staying here) we've never had any problem with it keeping up with demand.

snakeweasel

robr2 said:

Of course, I'm leaning towards the S60 even though it has the lowest mpg.

Just get what you like that suits your needs. It's that simple.

snakeweasel

dino001 said:

That Volkswagen scandal looks serious. I only wonder if they also cheated in Europe. There were some indications of numbers not adding up (ever increasing pollution standards vs. measured pollution in cities). Seems like "special software" game may have been played there, too, not just VAG. This thing can be bigger than any of us could imagine. I hope it will also debunk the "superclean diesel" myths that some like to perpetuate. Will see, it's going to be interesting. VAG 20% down today, may not be enough.

Here is a picture of the CEO of VW holding a press conference about the issue.

snakeweasel

andres3 said:

snakeweasel said:

abacomike said:

@andres3:

Can we call a truce please on speed!  I am tired of the bickering.  Enough is enough!!!

I'll agree to that, I had a few more posts to reply to andres3 but I'll let it slid, I don't think he is interested in the facts anyway.

Anyway I have been out doing some preliminary looking today.

Just for the record, It is I who has proven to use facts in my arguments, and you who has proven to choose to believe in fantasy and insurance backed and based rhetoric. But I agree to a truce based on that observation.

abacomike

snakeweasel said:

@andres3:

Can we call a truce please on speed!  I am tired of the bickering.  Enough is enough!!!

I'll agree to that, I had a few more posts to reply to andres3 but I'll let it slid, I don't think he is interested in the facts anyway. Anyway I have been out doing some preliminary looking today.

Just for the record, It is I who has proven to use facts in my arguments, and you who has proven to choose to believe in fantasy and insurance backed and based rhetoric. But I agree to a truce based on that observation.

Thank the Lord!

robr2

Can you provide a link to that article? I can't find it.

What I did find is that Bharara has not ruled out criminal charges against GM employees. But I doubt it will happen because he said that GM didn't try to block the investigation, waived attorney client privilege, and settled with victims for amounts higher than they would have gotten in a trial.

As for the peanut company, since they shut down the only real recourse was criminal proceedings.

stever said:

That's a bit surprising since GM seems to have skated. Georgia must have stronger laws than Michigan or the feds (or is more willing to use them than Michigan).

"Criminalizing corporate misbehavior. When Preet Bharara, U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York, last week announced the government’s settlement with GM, he pointedly said there currently does not exist a specific law enabling criminal charges against a company for a product defect attributed to fatalities." (Detroit News)