Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

robr2

Actually since they were caught, they are being very open:

http://www.nytimes.com/video/business/international/100000003928968/volkswagen-we-have-totally-screwed-up.html

Surprising it's coming from the US CEO and not from the fatherland.

snakeweasel said:

Here is a picture of the CEO of VW holding a press conference about the issue.

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

"My new school bus has some weird pollution injection system they call DEF which puts some liquid into the exhaust system. It has it's own fuel tank and a seperate gauge on the dash. Don't have any idea how it works but all the mechanics say pollution controls and diesels don't belong together. "

farmer, that might be a bit different than the adblue on a car engine. I used to drive a diesel Frieghtliner (carting the HS band gear around). Big beast with a 26' box. I loved it! Anyway, this was in about 2007-2009. At the very end, they got in some brand new units that included emissions controls. I never scored one, but the desk guy (I saw him a lot) told me about it. All kinds of disclaimers about it. IIRC, you had to drive at a certain speed for a while, and if you didn't (or idled too long) it would shut off. And I think maybe if you were driving?

might have been something that happened automatically when driving, but under certain conditions needed to do manually (hey, it has been a while!)

I do know that idling was key. My father was a fire commisioner at the time, so dealt with buying trucks. The FD community was fighting like hell for an EPA exemption, because that is basically all those trucks do (short hops and idle). And shutting down while pumping, not good!

I think your Frieghtliner was similar to our last generation buses. These had some sort of catalytic converter type system which needed to be driven before it would heat up properly to burn off pollutants. Every so often it would expel the residue in a big puff of white smoke. Many calls came in from both drivers and motorists that the engine blew up or that the bus was on fire.

On the VW issue.
The crux is that VW installed software that detected when the engine was being emissions tested and reset operation to pass. When the test was over it reverted to normal but more polluting mode. As a settlement VW will have to remove that feature.

I predict a huge rise in offers on the Internet by individuals willing to re program those cars back to the way they were before VW got caught. The cars will still pollute but the scam will just be driven underground.

Makes you wonder how many custom tunes done on various other cars also violate EPA regs.

roadburner

oldfarmer50 said:

Makes you wonder how many custom tunes done on various other cars also violate EPA regs.

I'm sure some do, but since many only affect full throttle performance it is a moot point- as EPA and CARB don't test engines at full throttle.

roadburner

PMD thinks VWoA is toast.

fezo

At this point VW is pretty much dead to me. I've been on the brink of buying one a few times, but as PMD points out this intentionally illegal activity is on top of their lack of reliability.

There's a sudden opening for another company to produce VW- like cars that actually work as designed and are reliable. If they had more money Mazda would be a natural.

berri

Granted, VW hasn't had much market presence here for a long time, other than Audi. But remember, everybody writing Ford off around 2000 between Explorer rollovers and cruise control induced vehicle fires. Yet within a few years they were on fire market and financial wise instead. Americans have short memories. Worst case down the road, Chattanooga will be building Audi's.

stever

robr2 said:

Can you provide a link to that article? I can't find it.

Sorry, I pooched the link. Here it it again (and fixed above).

And yeah, other stories say that criminal charges are still an option.

andres3

roadburner said:

PMD thinks VWoA is toast.

That article is hilarious and outrageous. If killing people on purpose with bad ignition switches doesn't take down GM, why would a little NOX take down VW? In fact, unless you are a tree hugger, I don't see this VW scandal as much of anything, since the customer benefits from the defeat device with better performance and fuel economy which saves them money $$$.

Customers don't benefit at all with the GM debacle, unless they die and then the family benefits with a settlement, but lose a loved one. I just don't see these issues even being in the same ball park, but for sure it is a serious issue.

robr2

The difference is intent. VW designed their emissions system to do something illegal. GM didn't.

verdugo

I'll ask the mods again (for the 200th time.) Could you please ask your software provider to add an 'ignore' feature?

Much appreciated.

abacomike

verdugo said:

I'll ask the mods again (for the 200th time.) Could you please ask your software provider to add an 'ignore' feature? Much appreciated.

Ditto on the ignore feature.  

andres3

robr2 said:

The difference is intent. VW designed their emissions system to do something illegal. GM didn't.

Ahhh, so you're making a judgment. A different judge might find that a reasonable auto-maker would reasonably conclude that a faulty failure-prone ignition switch would reasonably lead to injuries and potential fatalities. So does that make it deliberate negligent manslaughter? I don't think anyone wants to prosecute Government Motors though. It all depends on if a reasonable person would conclude deliberate negligence equals intent.

ab348

abacomike said:

verdugo said:

I'll ask the mods again (for the 200th time.) Could you please ask your software provider to add an 'ignore' feature?

Much appreciated.

Ditto on the ignore feature.  

Thirded.

stever

We've had the down arrow option available forever here and as the Membership Agreement says, "We welcome all points of view on automotive matters."

If we all thought alike and agreed on everything, it'd be a rather boring spot.

ab348

andres3 said:

roadburner said:

PMD thinks VWoA is toast.

That article is hilarious and outrageous. If killing people on purpose with bad ignition switches doesn't take down GM, why would a little NOX take down VW? In fact, unless you are a tree hugger, I don't see this VW scandal as much of anything, since the customer benefits from the defeat device with better performance and fuel economy which saves them money $$$.

Customers don't benefit at all with the GM debacle, unless they die and then the family benefits with a settlement, but lose a loved one. I just don't see these issues even being in the same ball park, but for sure it is a serious issue.

So I can get stoned to the beejeezus belt on booze and drugs, get behind the wheel of my GM car and wrap it around a tree at 70mph and blame GM for my injuries, but VW can build 11 MILLION VEHICLES that would not be allowed to be sold because they break the laws of the land in whatever country they were shipped to, and that is just fine?

Gotcha.

andres3

ab348 said:

andres3 said:

roadburner said:

PMD thinks VWoA is toast.

That article is hilarious and outrageous. If killing people on purpose with bad ignition switches doesn't take down GM, why would a little NOX take down VW? In fact, unless you are a tree hugger, I don't see this VW scandal as much of anything, since the customer benefits from the defeat device with better performance and fuel economy which saves them money $$$.

Customers don't benefit at all with the GM debacle, unless they die and then the family benefits with a settlement, but lose a loved one. I just don't see these issues even being in the same ball park, but for sure it is a serious issue.

So I can get stoned to the beejeezus belt on booze and drugs, get behind the wheel of my GM car and wrap it around a tree at 70mph and blame GM for my injuries, but VW can build 11 MILLION VEHICLES that would not be allowed to be sold because they break the laws of the land in whatever country they were shipped to, and that is just fine?

Gotcha.

If the driver was stoned and/or drunk, I think that makes blaming the ignition for the crash a weak(er) case. I have a feeling that out of all the people that died where the ignition is being blamed, only a small percentage were drunk and/or high on drugs, but I could be wrong.

I'm not saying what VW has done is fine, just pointing out that it appears VW motives for doing what they did actually improves the customer's experience, whereas what GM has done in the past is anti-customer. If you are buying a vehicle because it has low emissions; shouldn't you be getting a Prius anyway?

I know we chose a TDI not because it was supposed to be green, but because it gets great mileage.

VW deliberately gamed the system, but they didn't put people's lives at risk.

roadburner

stever said:

We've had the down arrow option available forever here and as the Membership Agreement says, "We welcome all points of view on automotive matters."

If we all thought alike and agreed on everything, it'd be a rather boring spot.

But the ability to block those who-IMNSHO-only make inane/moronoic posts would make things SO much more pleasant. In any event, everyone can choose who they want to block...

stever

Actually they did. NOx is a known carcinogen. That's why they regulate the emissions and that's partly why we have AdBlue and DEF.

henryn

andres3 said:

ab348 said:

andres3 said:

roadburner said:

PMD thinks VWoA is toast.

That article is hilarious and outrageous. If killing people on purpose with bad ignition switches doesn't take down GM, why would a little NOX take down VW? In fact, unless you are a tree hugger, I don't see this VW scandal as much of anything, since the customer benefits from the defeat device with better performance and fuel economy which saves them money $$$.

Customers don't benefit at all with the GM debacle, unless they die and then the family benefits with a settlement, but lose a loved one. I just don't see these issues even being in the same ball park, but for sure it is a serious issue.

So I can get stoned to the beejeezus belt on booze and drugs, get behind the wheel of my GM car and wrap it around a tree at 70mph and blame GM for my injuries, but VW can build 11 MILLION VEHICLES that would not be allowed to be sold because they break the laws of the land in whatever country they were shipped to, and that is just fine?

Gotcha.

If the driver was stoned and/or drunk, I think that makes blaming the ignition for the crash a weak(er) case. I have a feeling that out of all the people that died where the ignition is being blamed, only a small percentage were drunk and/or high on drugs, but I could be wrong.

I'm not saying what VW has done is fine, just pointing out that it appears VW motives for doing what they did actually improves the customer's experience, whereas what GM has done in the past is anti-customer. If you are buying a vehicle because it has low emissions; shouldn't you be getting a Prius anyway?

I know we chose a TDI not because it was supposed to be green, but because it gets great mileage.

VW deliberately gamed the system, but they didn't put people's lives at risk.

This is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. I feel, strongly, that this was not "gaming the system". This was, knowingly, deliberately, with malice aforethought, breaking the federal law.

berri

The difference is intent. VW designed their emissions system to do something illegal. GM didn't

That may well be true initially. But GM appears to have deliberately delayed their response to the matter until it got caught. Therein lies the legal settlement. But let's be honest, over the past several decades pretty much every major automaker has tried to pull crap off on the consumer. Business is first and foremost about $$$.

roadburner

I'm no cheerleader for GM, but I think VW's conduct was more serious as they set out to cheat/deceive from the get-go. The Golf R was on my short list- but no longer.

robr2

andres3 said:

ab348 said:

andres3 said:

roadburner said:

PMD thinks VWoA is toast.

That article is hilarious and outrageous. If killing people on purpose with bad ignition switches doesn't take down GM, why would a little NOX take down VW? In fact, unless you are a tree hugger, I don't see this VW scandal as much of anything, since the customer benefits from the defeat device with better performance and fuel economy which saves them money $$$.

Customers don't benefit at all with the GM debacle, unless they die and then the family benefits with a settlement, but lose a loved one. I just don't see these issues even being in the same ball park, but for sure it is a serious issue.

So I can get stoned to the beejeezus belt on booze and drugs, get behind the wheel of my GM car and wrap it around a tree at 70mph and blame GM for my injuries, but VW can build 11 MILLION VEHICLES that would not be allowed to be sold because they break the laws of the land in whatever country they were shipped to, and that is just fine?

Gotcha.

If the driver was stoned and/or drunk, I think that makes blaming the ignition for the crash a weak(er) case. I have a feeling that out of all the people that died where the ignition is being blamed, only a small percentage were drunk and/or high on drugs, but I could be wrong.

I'm not saying what VW has done is fine, just pointing out that it appears VW motives for doing what they did actually improves the customer's experience, whereas what GM has done in the past is anti-customer. If you are buying a vehicle because it has low emissions; shouldn't you be getting a Prius anyway?

I know we chose a TDI not because it was supposed to be green, but because it gets great mileage.

VW deliberately gamed the system, but they didn't put people's lives at risk.

But what if I bought a TDI due to it being advertised as a clean alternative? Such false advertising did nothing for my customer experience. In fact now I would feel that I was duped.

stickguy

Glad the 2 VWs in family are both leased.

suydam

They're both serious issues. And no it's not OK for either to 1) cover up a known defect (GM) or 2) fudge an emissions test designed to help the planet (VW). And they are both going to pay and have lawsuits. As they should. And VW may suffer more because the system they lied about was one they touted as a reason for buying their product.

laurasdada

RobR: How long until anonymous sources link the Patriots to both the GM and VW scandals??? Or, did I just do it???

robr2

laurasdada said:

RobR: How long until anonymous sources link the Patriots to both the GM and VW scandals??? Or, did I just do it???

Please, please, please - no deflategate. I'm one of the few New Englanders that feel Brady knew what was going on and should have been punished.

robr2

So here is the Pope's ride for his visit to the US:

ab348

stever said:

We've had the down arrow option available forever here and as the Membership Agreement says, "We welcome all points of view on automotive matters."

If we all thought alike and agreed on everything, it'd be a rather boring spot.

What down arrow option? I see nothing of the sort, just a "Like"and "LOL" button.

stever

Try the one on your keyboard. The spacebar should work too. Can't tell you what to do if you're phoning it in.

abacomike

stever said:

Try the one on your keyboard. The spacebar should work too. Can't tell you what to do if you're phoning it in.

Stever, you've proved to us you are a comedian at heart.  So I will follow your suggestion and scroll the posts out of my environment.

fezo

Don't see what the down button does and would appreciate a refresher on how to ignore a poster short of just scrolling past his posts.

Owners of these vehicles will be watching their resale or trade-in values plummet like VW stock.

Stick - here you were indeed wise to lease this time.

stever

Some Vanilla sites have a thumbs down button. And the sites that implement that wind up with cliques of folks who IM each other to go after another poster and try to make their life miserable. We like to think we have a more tolerant community around here that mostly polices itself.

Y'all wouldn't like the ignore button in real life because moderators can't be ignored.

fezo

We NEED an ignore button.

[Deleted User]

stever said:

Some Vanilla sites have a thumbs down button. And the sites that implement that wind up with cliques of folks who IM each other to go after another poster and try to make their life miserable. We like to think we have a more tolerant community around here that mostly polices itself.

Y'all wouldn't like the ignore button in real life because moderators can't be ignored.

No, I'd be okay with an ignore button.

abacomike

fezo said:

Don't see what the down button does and would appreciate a refresher on how to ignore a poster short of just scrolling past his posts. Owners of these vehicles will be watching their resale or trade-in values plummet like VW stock. Stick - here you were indeed wise to lease this time.

Fezo, the "scrolling past his posts" IS the down button!  Get it?

roadburner

abacomike said:

Fezo, the "scrolling past his posts" IS the down button!  Get it?

Yes, but some of us would prefer the luxury of not having to be reminded that some idjits even exist...

ab348

abacomike said:

Fezo, the "scrolling past his posts" IS the down button!  Get it?

Everyone's a comedian.

isellhondas

So, the people who leased their VW diesels must be breathing a sigh of relief now since they can simply walk away BUT what a killer this will be for VW when the values (on cars they can't resell) will be WAY below what the residuals were set at!

So, a Stop Sale order on all diesel inventory, used cars they can't sell.

The more we stir, the worse this smells. Could be fatal to VW. Probably not but not so remotely possible.

roadburner

In other news, that sketchy dealer in Indianapolis is STILL trying to sell the car I was interested in- they've even chopped another $480 off the price.
I hope that they choke on it...

abacomike

roadburner said:

Fezo, the "scrolling past his posts" IS the down button!  Get it?

Yes, but some of us would prefer the luxury of not having to be reminded that some idjits even exist...

Unfortunately, life presents the human specie with occasional, yet unavoidable as well as undesirable interactions with other residents of our beloved planet who have a "different" view of things well out of the range of the average or norm.  Success in life can be measured in terms of how effective one is in avoiding those undesirable interactions with the least amount of fanfare as possible.  Thus, one must learn to "scroll" with a "smile"!  

oldfarmer50

andres3 said:

roadburner said:

PMD thinks VWoA is toast.

That article is hilarious and outrageous. If killing people on purpose with bad ignition switches doesn't take down GM, why would a little NOX take down VW? In fact, unless you are a tree hugger, I don't see this VW scandal as much of anything, since the customer benefits from the defeat device with better performance and fuel economy which saves them money $$$.

Customers don't benefit at all with the GM debacle, unless they die and then the family benefits with a settlement, but lose a loved one. I just don't see these issues even being in the same ball park, but for sure it is a serious issue.

I think you have a point. The anger will come when customers are forced to take the "fix" with a corresponding loss of performance. That's why I think you will see an explosion of illegal tuning to get the cars back to their previous status. I bet the tree huggers will be the first in line when it comes to "their" car.

oldfarmer50

laurasdada said:

RobR: How long until anonymous sources link the Patriots to both the GM and VW scandals??? Or, did I just do it???

I think the deflate gate nonsense will be in the headlines long after VW an GM are forgotten.

oldfarmer50

stever said:

Try the one on your keyboard. The spacebar should work too. Can't tell you what to do if you're phoning it in.

Keyboard? What's that? Must be something that comes on one of those antique cars.

abacomike

I had another one of my periodic "epiphanies" (intellectual - not divine) this week about the world we live in and what we have created to make our lives easier.

When I lived in Chicago and its suburbs, I used to pass by the General Motors Electromotive Division's plant on my way to work each day.  I used to ponder why GM named the plant where Diesel Locomotives were produced "electromotive" instead of "locomotive".

Then it hit me, finally!  These huge Diesel engines that went into these powerful locomotives produced "electricity" that was then used to power the locomotive.  So, GM was really producing electrically driven locomotives, not Diesel engine driven locomotives.  Thus, the "electromotive" terminology was quite appropriate.

So, I decided to research the history of producing electricity to drive locomotives.  It seems GM purchased Electromotive in 1930.  The need for more powerful locomotives was realized in the 1940's - steam locomotives did not have the pulling power necessary for the future.  Thus, through the development of very powerful electric motors, Diesel engines were designed and built to produce a sufficient quantity of portable electricity to power these electric engines.

GM sold the Electromotive Division in 2005 and a new company (Electromotive Division) was born.  GE also has an Electromotive Division that produces electric engines for their locomotives.

Thanks for allowing me to share my personal epiphany.  They don't come as frequently as they used to.

explorerx4

VW's footprint in this country is pretty big, so I don't think the government will try put them out of business.
Still will be a rough row to hoe for them.
Since VW is looking like it's headed for some lower sales, who do you think is going to benefit?

abacomike

explorerx4 said:

VW's footprint in this country is pretty big, so I don't think the government will try put them out of business. Still will be a rough row to hoe for them. Since VW is looking like it's headed for some lower sales, who do you think is going to benefit?

Everyone else who produces a low to moderately priced vehicle - GM, Nissan, Toyota, Chrysler, Ford, Kia, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Mazda, to name a few.

ab348

explorerx4 said:

Since VW is looking like it's headed for some lower sales, who do you think is going to benefit?

Interesting question. I have always felt that VW is not particularly interchangeable with the Asian imports. The driving dynamics and feel, and the design idioms are very different. A person who likes a Honda or a Hyundai probably would not like a VW, and vice-versa. I think Ford and GM might benefit more than some may first think. The Focus and Cruze are more VW-like than the Asians I suspect.

robr2

I could see Buick picking up some business from VW. Essentially their vehicles are Opels and most of the VW line is softened up for the US market.

verdugo

stever said:

We've had the down arrow option available forever here and as the Membership Agreement says, "We welcome all points of view on automotive matters."

If we all thought alike and agreed on everything, it'd be a rather boring spot.

Yes, everybody has the right to express their opinion. However, that also means that I have the right not to read somebody's opinion. The way that Edmunds has decided to implement their forum is makes it hard to skip over posts and saying to use the down arrow to skip posts is just inconveniencing your users. You're making a forum less useful and pleasant for a bunch of us.

Why would you aggravate your users?

So to sum up, yes, welcome all opinions, but also make it possible for the other members to ignore the trolls.

But since I don't want to be accused of trolling myself, I'll stop again.

Thank you.

PF_Flyer

Those software developers are tricky, but I've been using the undocumented ignore feature online for almost as long as I've been online.

I'd tell you the complicated keystroke sequence, but then I'd have to answer to the developers