Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

dino001

imidazol97 said:

We were being told that diesels were cleaner: "Clean diesel." LOL

More from Europe:

http://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/publications/2015_03_11_TE_Briefing_Six_facts_about_diesel_the_car_industry_would_rather_not_tell_you.pdf


Briefing:
Six facts about diesel the car industry would rather not tell you
|
1. A typical diesel car emits 10 times more nitrogen oxides than an equivalent gasoline car
2. 12 out of 13 Euro 6 diesel cars failed to achieve the Euro 6 limit in tests conducted on the road. The worst
vehicle emitted 22 times the allowed limit.
3. Diesel exhaust fumes cause cancer. Nitrogen dioxide causes a range of short-term health effects, like asthma; and longer-term effects that shorten lifetimes. In the air nitrogen oxides are converted
into other harmful pollutants like fine particles and ozone.
4. The current system for testing cars in a laboratory is obsolete and produces meaningless results
–the figures quoted by ACEA. The car industry is fighting to delay and weaken new on
road tests precisely because Euro 6 cars cannot achieve the limits set.
5. On average diesel cars actually emit more, not less CO2 than petrol or hybrid cars.
6. The UK has some of the highest levels of nitrogen dioxide in Europe

I wonder, if this whole scandal will slowdown diesel explosion in Europe. There were many advocates in the US trying to convince us that Europeans had it right. I was skeptical, now it seems, it's worse than I even imagined. This is what you get when officials looks to simple answers for their problems without full consideration of the possible effects. They wanted CO2 reduction, they thought they got it. Now we know the cost.

imidazol97

@oldfarmer50
As I said, someone looked at the voter demographics of those car owners. Must have been a lot in swing states.

LOL.
Most likely.

imidazol97

I keep watching to see how this VW scandal compares to the transmissions and air bags and toyota unintended acceleration and sludge errr gel AND the criticisms of GM. So far no one has called for the company to be disbanded as in GM's case. But the cartoonists are really busy with biting cartoon humor.

To be politically correct, (LOL), If easily offended, don't click the links:

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/kn092515dAPR20150925024515.jpg

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/sbr092515dAPR20150925124524.jpg

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/bg092415dAPC20150924114752.jpg

stever

Hard to say, but it sure seems that people are as furious with the VW cheat as they were with the bailout of GM and Chrysler. But my auto news is a bit filtered.

imidazol97

I just saw a truckload of new VW Bugs headed east on I70 a couple hours ago. I can't recall ever seeing a load of Bugs on the move. I've seen lots of others including some boutique brands.

dino001

To me the magnitudes and egregiousness of the behavior is are similar for both scandals overall, with different accents. GM's issue was a design mistake (can happen to us all) that turned into (allegedly) criminal negligence (not acting on the mistake) and then coverup (part replacement without part number) in a context of unfavorable political backdrop (bailout). The conduct affected potentially large number of people, but practically only very small number suffered grave consequences. VW, on the other hand, was exhibiting (allegedly) intentionally criminal conduct from the start and planned to simply play to the very bitter end. The entire country's population was affected, but in a very small (if not infinitesimal) way through added harmful pollution, a specific subset of the customers suffered specific financial harm. There is also a serious political backdrop of this conduct of American and European officials, where the complaints may be that the former set overly aggressive agenda that compelled some to cheating (the further mpg mandates can be put in question), but the latter seem to have set completely ill-conceived agenda (CO2 emissions at expense of everything else) and turned blind eye to what was clear "gaming" the system in order have a claim of their agenda being met. I simply don't believe in shock of European officials to meet their own ill-conceived. Neither of those companies makes me feel good.

I also hope the reactions on this forum here put to bed any "dedicated anti-GM" bias accusations we read here all this time. It's clear we simply dislike liars and cheaters, no matter if their name is John, or Hans (or whatever Japanese/Korean equivalents might be).

imidazol97

dino001 said:

I also hope the reactions on this forum here put to bed any "dedicated anti-GM" bias accusations we read here all this time.

We'll wait a few months/yr to see how things work out on this matter and whether it's handled with the vigor it deserves. But it certainly is starting out that way.

dino001 said:

It's clear we simply dislike liars and cheaters, no matter if their name is John, or Hans (or whatever Japanese/Korean equivalents might be).

If anything, I believe that this and the ignition switch contact mechanism problem makes it look like toyota and Honda have gotten by more easily on some problems than they should have. Public favoring them gives a halo effect over problems. I wonder if VW/Audi's past problematic vehicles that some have had are hurting the people's forgiveness level toward VW, much as a lot of people wanted to "get GM" because they were unhappy with past vehicles.

houdini1

oldfarmer50 said:

stever said:

We don't need to relax anything and some more enforcement would be nice to see, especially for the idiots rolling coal. If there's no fix for the VW's, glass 'em.

Need to whack away at the semis and ships too. We've already been down this road with Cummins, Navistar, Caterpillar and others back in '98. Still can't believe we're putting our kids on diesel school buses.

As someone who has lived through the days when rivers would catch fire from the dumped solvents and sewage I'm not insensitive to evironmentalsts concerns but I question the wisdom of making vehicles unaffordable or undrivable for a 1% reduction in emissions.

Diesel school buses these days must be supremely clean if the amount of time our mechanics spend fixing them are any indication. Turbo diesels provide the torque to get a heavy bus moving in traffic. Years ago our district tried natural gas buses and they were downright dangerous due to slow acceleration. Also remember what happens with gasoline buses.

I agree with your thoughts farmer. Remember that old saying about throwing the baby out with the bath water? Or bending over to pick up a penny and sticking your butt through a plate glass window?

By the way, I don't own any diesels because they don't make economic sense to me. Same with hybrids and EVs.

dino001

imidazol97 said:

. I wonder if VW/Audi's past problematic vehicles that some have had are hurting the people's forgiveness level toward VW, much as a lot of people wanted to "get GM" because they were unhappy with past vehicles.

That may be a valid thesis. If you have had problems in the past than you get much smaller margin in the future. Also, I may say that both GM and VW may have some other similarities, as invoking similar level of passion (both negative and positive) from people for different reasons, of course, while Japanese brands while selling really well, don't have those passionate fans to defend and cheer them, as well as detractors to blast them.

BTW, Volkswagen is pretty much GM of Europe in scope, size and breadth. In fact, i may argue it's the "old" GM of Europe, with something like ten brands spanning from Bugatti to Skoda, perhaps even "outgeeming" them in this particular category .

cdnpinhead

Well, as everyone clutches their pearls and stumbles off to their fainting couches, I'm going to take much interest in how this thing plays out. The tree huggers will be comotose on their couches, the bargain hunters will be scooping up TDIs, and VW may be circling the drain.

And the beat goes on.

oldfarmer50

stever said:

To those who say VW's "little" problem is a non-issue that should be swept under the rug, especially by loosening the regs, I'll see your argument and raise you three inhalers.



On the other hand, dirty air creates a lot of other jobs, especially if you are in the medical field.

In the 50s nobody had asthma and you smelled the diesels long before you saw them.

suydam

You are kidding, right? Asthma isn't exactly new.

stever

Those are my wife's inhalers btw. Mild case - we think diesel is a trigger for her but we try to avoid getting to close to diesels in traffic and she's only really been bothered once by the fumes. Gas exhaust hasn't been an issue but she won't ride in a car with a can of gas in it, or, say, a lawn mower.

dino001

I feel there will be lots of cars decertified, gas or diesel. It may turn the whole thing into a big turmoil. One good thing coming out of that may be less illusion and more truth. People won't like it. My lufe experience tells me people want to be lied to, as long as the lie sounds plausible and they don't find out.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/25/epa-volkswagen-emissions-testing/72793818/

PF_Flyer

stever said:

CAFE is a fleet average so EVs and hybrids and hydrogen will pick up the slack. We'll all be able to afford Teslas in just a couple of years.

To paraphrase my college roomie in one of our basic EE courses, "Energy has to come from somewhere"

abacomike

dino001 said:

I feel there will be lots of cars decertified, gas or diesel. It may turn the whole thing into a big turmoil. One good thing coming out of that may be less illusion and more truth. People won't like it. My lufe experience tells me people want to be lied to, as long as the lie sounds plausible and they don't find out. http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/25/epa-volkswagen-emissions-testing/72793818/

I wonder if the "lying" approach you espouse is the other end of the spectrum!  I propose that people would rather "lie" than tell the truth when the telling the truth invokes moderate to severe consequences.  It's all a matter of perspective - don't you agree?

driver100

All I know is my neighbor was ready to trade in his 08 Jetta diesel Wagon for a new diesel.
Now he is going to keep the old one, he figures the cost of diesel fuel will drop a lot!

oldfarmer50

stever said:

Those are my wife's inhalers btw. Mild case - we think diesel is a trigger for her but we try to avoid getting to close to diesels in traffic and she's only really been bothered once by the fumes. Gas exhaust hasn't been an issue but she won't ride in a car with a can of gas in it, or, say, a lawn mower.

My wife came down with asthma suddenly from dog hair. Go figure. Used inhalers for years then just as suddenly subsided.

Still won't buy any puppies.

I've done elementary bus runs where almost every other child is listed with asthma or serious allergies. Doubt it's the fumes from the new buses and I never noticed such prevalence 25 years ago.

Maybe it's like polio, made worse by a too clean environment.

oldfarmer50

Taking a break from the VW scandal...

I've noticed in recent years a lot of used car "super stores" popping up which are run by large new car dealers. They have no public connection with the new dealer and are called names like "Big Al's" or "King's of Credit" but it's generally known they are subsidiaries of Chrysler, Ford, Toyota etc.

Why would a new car dealer have seperate lots for used cars when they already carry used cars on their new car lots? Under NY law they all have to give the same warranties so why the disassociation?

Do they want to sell miled up junkers without tainting their new car brand or is there another reason?

venture

Also climbing off the VW horse for a minute...

I went with my youngest daughter to the Subaru place yesterday. She expressed an interest in trading her Impreza hatch for a Crosstrek.

I researched the value of her car and what they are selling for in this area and had a good idea what the difference between the two should be, as well as what the Crosstreks are selling for.

When we got there our usual sales person was not there. The sales manager put another sales guy on us. I explained that all she wanted to do was drive the Crosstrek to see if she liked it before proceeding with anything else. Well...after all the shenanigans were over they had her keys, appraised her car, and finally let her drive the Crosstrek. I have already bought 4 Subaru's there and never ran into this with my usual sales lady.

Before we left they handed me a paper with all the $ figures on it. Everything was in line with my research except they, in my opinion, low-balled the trade - by about $1,500.

Normally I just tell my usual sales person what difference I will pay and call me if she can match that number. Four out of four times it worked fine. Until now. Everything was a whirlwind...lol. I like things a lot calmer.

This is going to be good.

graphicguy

Was in Chicago for work most of the week. Rented a Malibu...not the entirely new '16, but a '15. I have been driving my CTS with all its faults and foibles for so long, I had forgotten what a "good" GM car was supposed to feel like.

Typically, the steering was too light. But, it was smooth...no "hangs", no intermittent quitting, just smooth power steering. I forgot what that felt like. A goodly amount of understeer built in, though.

Acceleration wasn't bad, but not great, either. I think it's a version of the same 2.0 that's in the CTS. Funny, it sounded and felt more refined than it does in the CTS. Certainly the Malibu is slower.

MY LINK actually works in the Malibu (CUE in my CTS, on the other hand, does not).

No stalls, no drips, no errors. And, this was a rental that had 10K miles on it (which my CTS hasn't reached).

Got home late afternoon yesterday. I park with an off airport sight with a valet service. Given I'm at the airport about 3 out of 4 weeks in a month, I get to know some of the parking patrons at this place, as we see each other often. When I pick up my car, it's running with either the A/C or heater running, depending on the time of year, bottled water waiting in the car, newspaper and my receipt. All I have to do is jump in and go.

Well, the car next to mine happened to be an older GS, and the owner was getting in his while I was retrieving mine. He was looking at the CTS. He explained he had nearly 150K miles on his Lexus and was actively looking for a new car, and wondered how I liked the CTS.

I laughed. He said "that's either a really good thing, or a really bad thing." I told him I wouldn't buy another Cadillac if it was sold to me for $5. I proceeded to tell him the numerous maladies, how it had been in the dealer shop for nearly two months, and still wasn't fixed. I showed him the inoperative CUE.

I asked how he liked the GS. He said he had no issues at all in his ownership, and that the Lexus dealership (in KY, but owned by the same guy who owns the one near me in OH) treated him quite well. I suggested he should stick with Lexus.

imidazol97

graphicguy said:

Typically, the steering was too light. But, it was smooth...no "hangs", no intermittent quitting, just smooth power steering. I forgot what that felt like. A goodly amount of understeer built in, though.

I had to laugh at this. In case someone didn't know, I have a similar Malibu. I probably agree that the steering is lighter than most cars that are "road machines. But it is flawless. HOWEVER, I have no idea if my car tends toward understeer--I've never driven it hard enough to get a feel for it. The lighter engine in front, compared to my 3800 V6 leSabres, makes it feel nicely balance for my sedate driving style. LOL My 235x55x18-inch Goodyear Eagles might do well at gripping. But they're some stupid LS2 version.

graphicguy said:

Acceleration wasn't bad, but not great, either. I think it's a version of the same 2.0 that's in the CTS. Funny, it sounded and felt more refined than it does in the CTS. Certainly the Malibu is slower. .

Did it have the 265 hp turbo 2.0L or the 2.5L at 195 hp and 191 lb-ft. The 2.5 is not much lower in power than what my 3800 has although the rpms for peak are lower on the 3800. Car and Driver says the 2.0 turbo is 6.3 sec to 60. AND it has a "bit of turbo lag" which I think you would have noticed. I'm wondering if you actually were driving the 2.5 L.. A clue would be did it have auto stop where the engine turned off when you did a moderate braking held till the car was stopped and the tach drops to a region above 0 that says "Auto Stop."

abacomike

Off the VW scandal and on to another.  Hyundai is recalling almost 500,000+ 2009-2012 Sonatas and is REPLACING the engines because they can fail.  Replacing them - not repairing them.  Both 4 cylinder engines, not the 6.  No injuries or deaths reported as per the Sun Sentinel article in this mornings business section.

To replace the entire engine in that many cars is, in my recollection, unheard of.  Imagine, no repairs or fixes.  Also, they will warrant the new engine for 10 years or 100,000 miles, who ever comes first.

Amazing!

imidazol97

abacomike said:

Off the VW scandal and on to another.  Hyundai is recalling almost 500,000+ 2009-2012 Sonatas and is REPLACING the engines because they can fail.  Replacing them - not repairing them.  Both 4 cylinder engines, not the 6.  No injuries or deaths reported as per the Sun Sentinel article in this mornings business section.

To replace the entire engine in that many cars is, in my recollection, unheard of.  Imagine, no repairs or fixes.  Also, they will warrant the new engine for 10 years or 100,000 miles, who ever comes first.

Amazing!

Where's Jmonroe. Maybe Hyunda will replace the engine in his car now!

stickguy

oldfarmer50 said:

Taking a break from the VW scandal...

I've noticed in recent years a lot of used car "super stores" popping up which are run by large new car dealers. They have no public connection with the new dealer and are called names like "Big Al's" or "King's of Credit" but it's generally known they are subsidiaries of Chrysler, Ford, Toyota etc.

Why would a new car dealer have seperate lots for used cars when they already carry used cars on their new car lots? Under NY law they all have to give the same warranties so why the disassociation?

Do they want to sell miled up junkers without tainting their new car brand or is there another reason?

good question. My guess would be they are playing to the market that thinks they will get a better deal not buying at the dealer. Plus, so dealers usually only sell their own brand, so having a stand alone store gives them an opportunity to retail other brands instead of wholesaling them out.

stickguy

I thought of JM too, but he had a 6.

imidazol97

I knew the VW discussion wouldn't endure very long.

The hyundai recall sounds like they will inspect and replace IF they determine there
may be damage to the main bearings and rods by hearing the looseness due to wear.
I can't believe they would replace every engine just-in-case.

I like the way the wording is in the story I read indicating "the engine may stall."
If your main bearing or rod seizes, you engine WILL stall. LOL.

houdini1

imidazol97 said:

graphicguy said:

Typically, the steering was too light. But, it was smooth...no "hangs", no intermittent quitting, just smooth power steering. I forgot what that felt like. A goodly amount of understeer built in, though.

I had to laugh at this. In case someone didn't know, I have a similar Malibu. I probably agree that the steering is lighter than most cars that are "road machines. But it is flawless. HOWEVER, I have no idea if my car tends toward understeer--I've never driven it hard enough to get a feel for it. The lighter engine in front, compared to my 3800 V6 leSabres, makes it feel nicely balance for my sedate driving style. LOL My 235x55x18-inch Goodyear Eagles might do well at gripping. But they're some stupid LS2 version.

graphicguy said:

Acceleration wasn't bad, but not great, either. I think it's a version of the same 2.0 that's in the CTS. Funny, it sounded and felt more refined than it does in the CTS. Certainly the Malibu is slower. .

Did it have the 265 hp turbo 2.0L or the 2.5L at 195 hp and 191 lb-ft. The 2.5 is not much lower in power than what my 3800 has although the rpms for peak are lower on the 3800. Car and Driver says the 2.0 turbo is 6.3 sec to 60. AND it has a "bit of turbo lag" which I think you would have noticed. I'm wondering if you actually were driving the 2.5 L.. A clue would be did it have auto stop where the engine turned off when you did a moderate braking held till the car was stopped and the tach drops to a region above 0 that says "Auto Stop."

Your theory that this was the 2.5 L sounds right to me. This would much more likely to be in a rental fleet.

robr2

imidazol97 said:

The hyundai recall sounds like they will inspect and replace IF they determine there may be damage to the main bearings and rods by hearing the looseness due to wear.
I can't believe they would replace every engine just-in-case.

That's the way I understand it as well. They will inspect the engines and then determine if replacement is required.

On a personal note, I just got back from a quick 5K run. What a beautiful morning - 60 degrees, crisp air, light breeze. I felt like I could just keep running...

dino001

abacomike said:

dino001 said:

I feel there will be lots of cars decertified, gas or diesel. It may turn the whole thing into a big turmoil. One good thing coming out of that may be less illusion and more truth. People won't like it. My lufe experience tells me people want to be lied to, as long as the lie sounds plausible and they don't find out.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/25/epa-volkswagen-emissions-testing/72793818/

I wonder if the "lying" approach you espouse is the other end of the spectrum!  I propose that people would rather "lie" than tell the truth when the telling the truth invokes moderate to severe consequences.  It's all a matter of perspective - don't you agree?

Yes. Some can't even deal with small consequences. I watched a fascinating documentary about deception on CNBC. I was disrurbing, as I learned that we basically are wired for it but can also switch to honest on a dime, depending on the circumstances, and triggers can be really fickle. Also, big lies are almost always preceeded by small ones, essentially we go deeper into deception when small lies work. We also find really easy to justify the small ones, then bigger and bigger.

isellhondas

imidazol97 said:

I knew the VW discussion wouldn't endure very long.

The hyundai recall sounds like they will inspect and replace IF they determine there
may be damage to the main bearings and rods by hearing the looseness due to wear.
I can't believe they would replace every engine just-in-case.

I like the way the wording is in the story I read indicating "the engine may stall."
If your main bearing or rod seizes, you engine WILL stall. LOL.

Any engine "can" fail and any engine "may" stall! I'm with you. I can't understand why Hyundai would replace
every engine over something that "could" happen.

imidazol97

robr2 said:

On a personal note, I just got back from a quick 5K run. What a beautiful morning - 60 degrees, crisp air, light breeze. I felt like I could just keep running...

I'll take this weather we've been having now all year round. Except we need a little more rain: Florida should have shared some of theirs out of the 4-inch downpours they had recently.

abacomike

isellhondas said:

I knew the VW discussion wouldn't endure very long. The hyundai recall sounds like they will inspect and replace IF they determine there may be damage to the main bearings and rods by hearing the looseness due to wear. I can't believe they would replace every engine just-in-case. I like the way the wording is in the story I read indicating "the engine may stall." If your main bearing or rod seizes, you engine WILL stall. LOL.

Any engine "can" fail and any engine "may" stall! I'm with you. I can't understand why Hyundai would replace every engine over something that "could" happen.

"Hyundai is recalling and replacing the engines in nearly a half-million Sonata sedans in the U.S. because of a manufacturing defect that could cause them to stall. 

The recall covers 470,000 vehicles made between Dec. 11, 2009, and Apr. 12, 2012 at the company's Alabama assembly plant equipped with 2-liter or 2.4 liter gasoline engines."  This is a quote from NBC News.

Whether or not the above article is true or half true, it can be a huge expense.  Obviously, they have found these defects in more than just a few engines.  Remember, Hyundai warrants its engines and drive trains for 10 year is 100,000 miles.  It will be interesting to see if they replace most if not all engines.  If the engine seizes up wile driving, accidents will eventually result.  Even if the defects don't show up now, they probably will show up during the warranty.  So why take the chance of lawsuits for injuries or deaths.  In the long run, replacing the engines may be the least expensive alternative.  Additionally, the value of these cars will or have dropped a ton unless/until the engine is replaced and warranted for 10 years or 100,000 miles.

driver100

Blockquote class="Quote" rel="abacomike">Off the VW scandal and on to another.  Hyundai is recalling almost 500,000+ 2009-2012 Sonatas and is REPLACING the engines because they can fail.  Replacing them - not repairing them.  Both 4 cylinder engines, not the 6.  No injuries or deaths reported as per the Sun Sentinel article in this mornings business section.

To replace the entire engine in that many cars is, in my recollection, unheard of.  Imagine, no repairs or fixes.  Also, they will warrant the new engine for 10 years or 100,000 miles, who ever comes first.

Amazing!
__________________________________________________________________________________________


Hyundai will probably replace a few engines that malfunctioned and get a few $ million dollars in free advertising, and then convert a lot of disillusioned VW owners....great marketing move.

stever

"Hyundai will notify owners, and dealers will inspect the vehicles and replace the engine assembly, as necessary, free of charge." (Safercar.gov)

Kind of a funky link but it should take you to the official government site - NHTSA Campaign Number 15V568000.

houdini1

stever said:

"Hyundai will notify owners, and dealers will inspect the vehicles and replace the engine assembly, as necessary, free of charge." (Safercar.gov)

Kind of a funky link but it should take you to the official government site - NHTSA Campaign Number 15V568000.

If they were inspecting my car, I would want to know exactly what they were inspecting and what they were looking for. Seems it had something to do with steel shafts not being machined correctly. Maybe looking for shavings in the oil, oil pan, filter, etc.?

abacomike

stever said:

"Hyundai will notify owners, and dealers will inspect the vehicles and replace the engine assembly, as necessary, free of charge." (Safercar.gov) Kind of a funky link but it should take you to the official government site - NHTSA Campaign Number 15V568000.

My son has one of those cars that will be recalled.  I just told him to be wary about any storage engine noise until he gets the car in for inspection in November, which is the expected month recalls will be dealt with.

ab348

I don't follow any Hyundai message boards, but I find it odd that in places like this I have heard nothing about Hyundai engines failing in any numbers. Whereas there was a lot of chatter about their 2010 models pulling to the left because of poor assembly quality.

robr2

houdini1 said:

stever said:

"Hyundai will notify owners, and dealers will inspect the vehicles and replace the engine assembly, as necessary, free of charge." (Safercar.gov)

Kind of a funky link but it should take you to the official government site - NHTSA Campaign Number 15V568000.

If they were inspecting my car, I would want to know exactly what they were inspecting and what they were looking for. Seems it had something to do with steel shafts not being machined correctly. Maybe looking for shavings in the oil, oil pan, filter, etc.?

The will be inspecting the crankshaft and looking for debris that could block the connecting rod oil passages. If debris is found, they will replace the engine assembly. That may not mean a new engine. It could mean rebuilding the engine using the existing block. Just like when you get a "new" transmission. They don't replace the housing, only the internal components. It's SOP in the industry.

stickguy

well, based on recent news reports, I am glad that my VW and Hyundai are both leased! Only the Acura is owned outright.

Guess I made the right call there.

snakeweasel

dino001 said:

40 times the limit is so clean you can suck the pipe? Those things wouldn't probably have passed limits from the 80's. Of course who knows what they did back then.

Well it would depend on how strict the allowable limit is. You keep making the limit stricter and stricter soon you wind up having a situation where being many times over the limit is perfectly safe.

snakeweasel

fezo said:

The problem is not regulations. It's people cheating the system intentionally. No wrist slap here. I want some execs doing hard time.

Not really, if you make the regulations to strict and/or to cumbersome people will be forced to either cheat the system or shut down.

snakeweasel

stever said:

CAFE is a fleet average so EVs and hybrids and hydrogen will pick up the slack. We'll all be able to afford Teslas in just a couple of years.

The major issue with EV's and hybrids is the cost; take hybrids, if the additional costs means that I cannot recoup that extra cost with gas savings then why buy it? EV's will likely be more expensive for the foreseeable future and will not completely replace gassers until you can fully recharge them in a few minutes.

Hydrogen is not truly feasible.

oldfarmer50

venture said:

Also climbing off the VW horse for a minute...

I went with my youngest daughter to the Subaru place yesterday. She expressed an interest in trading her Impreza hatch for a Crosstrek.

I researched the value of her car and what they are selling for in this area and had a good idea what the difference between the two should be, as well as what the Crosstreks are selling for.

When we got there our usual sales person was not there. The sales manager put another sales guy on us. I explained that all she wanted to do was drive the Crosstrek to see if she liked it before proceeding with anything else. Well...after all the shenanigans were over they had her keys, appraised her car, and finally let her drive the Crosstrek. I have already bought 4 Subaru's there and never ran into this with my usual sales lady.

Before we left they handed me a paper with all the $ figures on it. Everything was in line with my research except they, in my opinion, low-balled the trade - by about $1,500.

Normally I just tell my usual sales person what difference I will pay and call me if she can match that number. Four out of four times it worked fine. Until now. Everything was a whirlwind...lol. I like things a lot calmer.

This is going to be good.

Low balling the trade must be the only trick left with all the information on the Internet. Seems they hit you with auction value and hope you believe it's the best they can do. Can't blame them for trying.

oldfarmer50

graphicguy said:

Was in Chicago for work most of the week. Rented a Malibu...not the entirely new '16, but a '15. I have been driving my CTS with all its faults and foibles for so long, I had forgotten what a "good" GM car was supposed to feel like.

Typically, the steering was too light. But, it was smooth...no "hangs", no intermittent quitting, just smooth power steering. I forgot what that felt like. A goodly amount of understeer built in, though.

Acceleration wasn't bad, but not great, either. I think it's a version of the same 2.0 that's in the CTS. Funny, it sounded and felt more refined than it does in the CTS. Certainly the Malibu is slower.

MY LINK actually works in the Malibu (CUE in my CTS, on the other hand, does not).

No stalls, no drips, no errors. And, this was a rental that had 10K miles on it (which my CTS hasn't reached).

Got home late afternoon yesterday. I park with an off airport sight with a valet service. Given I'm at the airport about 3 out of 4 weeks in a month, I get to know some of the parking patrons at this place, as we see each other often. When I pick up my car, it's running with either the A/C or heater running, depending on the time of year, bottled water waiting in the car, newspaper and my receipt. All I have to do is jump in and go.

Well, the car next to mine happened to be an older GS, and the owner was getting in his while I was retrieving mine. He was looking at the CTS. He explained he had nearly 150K miles on his Lexus and was actively looking for a new car, and wondered how I liked the CTS.

I laughed. He said "that's either a really good thing, or a really bad thing." I told him I wouldn't buy another Cadillac if it was sold to me for $5. I proceeded to tell him the numerous maladies, how it had been in the dealer shop for nearly two months, and still wasn't fixed. I showed him the inoperative CUE.

I asked how he liked the GS. He said he had no issues at all in his ownership, and that the Lexus dealership (in KY, but owned by the same guy who owns the one near me in OH) treated him quite well. I suggested he should stick with Lexus.

So are they going to fix that CUE thingy or what? Are you saying the power steering is still acting up even after they said it was fixed?

oldfarmer50

abacomike said:

Off the VW scandal and on to another.  Hyundai is recalling almost 500,000+ 2009-2012 Sonatas and is REPLACING the engines because they can fail.  Replacing them - not repairing them.  Both 4 cylinder engines, not the 6.  No injuries or deaths reported as per the Sun Sentinel article in this mornings business section.

To replace the entire engine in that many cars is, in my recollection, unheard of.  Imagine, no repairs or fixes.  Also, they will warrant the new engine for 10 years or 100,000 miles, who ever comes first.

Amazing!

Didn't one of our posters have a Hyundai engine blow @ 50k miles and was told by the dealer to go scratch? Looks like he wasn't the only one. A new engine is a great deal especially if you had one that was miled up.

stickguy

that was JMonroe. The OCD oil changer (DIY). he kept a detailed spreadsheet, but they jumped on a typo to deny his claim when the engine blew, even though it was clean as a whistle inside.

snakeweasel

imidazol97 said:

Outrageous that EPA wouldn't require ALL cars to be "fixed."

I would think it is because of the same reason they don't test in those areas, the pollutants in those areas are very low and the few VW diesels spewing additional pollutants are not going to create dangerous levels. Now in high density areas where there are a lot more cars and manufacturing where pollutants are much higher the VW diesels (more in number too) could make dangerous levels of pollutants.

Secondly if they don't test in those areas how do you enforce any changes to the cars? Simple, you can't.

nyccarguy

@oldfarmer50 - with all the information out there available to those willing to look for it, there are very few "tricks" left in the "old" book. Undervaluing a trade by $1,500 - $2,000 is a way for dealers to make more money on the back end of your deal. If you say OK, they can inflate their asking price if your car isn't going to auction. If you go to walk out they can "run back to their manager" and "give you an extra $500 for your trade if you buy now." Or you can know your car's real world trade in value by asking our own @qbrozen and say: this is holding the deal back. I don't want another $500, or $1000. I don't want to split the difference. I know from auction reports that my car is worth $X. It isn't unreasonable. That's what gets me to sign.

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

All I know is my neighbor was ready to trade in his 08 Jetta diesel Wagon for a new diesel.
Now he is going to keep the old one, he figures the cost of diesel fuel will drop a lot!

Why would diesel fuel drop a lot, or at all? Passenger cars make up a tiny amount of the diesel demand in this country.