Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

stever

Had a rental Buick in Chicago years ago and the sensors saved me from hitting a bollard. Both the cam and the sensors would be nice.

abacomike

It is rare, indeed, that I find myself incapable of deciding whether a statement, a policy, a law, a Supreme Court Decision, a President's decision or a hypothetical situation is appropriate - in other words is it my opinion that the action taken is correct. I am a very opinionated individual - but I have been known to change or alter my opinion or decision about such actions.

Pretty long sentence, even in linguistic terms.  

I've been watching and listening and following this impasse between Apple and the FBI and the courts regarding whether or not Apple should be forced to provide the FBI with a back-door access to their encrypted iPhone IOS system in order to subvert the auto-erase fail-safe regarding security codes on their phones.  Should Apple be required to comply with the court order in California?   I AM CAUGHT BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE ON THIS ISSUE - A SORT OF CATCH-22!. I agree with Apple and their position - but I also agree with the FBI's position.  I really don't know which decision is correct - to comply or not to comply - that is the question!  

suydam

Today, a terrorist mass murderer, tomorrow one of us. I'm with Apple on this one.

PF_Flyer

I'm just thinking we should let our forums "collision-avoidance" system kick in here and swing back to the general vicinity of the automotive world

abacomike

stever said:

Had a rental Buick in Chicago years ago and the sensors saved me from hitting a bollard. Both the cam and the sensors would be nice.

Agreed!  I have the back-up camera with narrow view and wide view as well as the yellow and orange guides as to predicted direction and target - but I truly miss my front and rear sensors when pulling into a parking space.  My car has almost no rear view access to where the rear bumper is in relation to an object except for the camera views.  But the front sensors are, to me, the most important.  If you take a good look at the CLS, you will better understand my predicament. 

Mr_Shiftright

It's one of those great moral dilemmas you read about in textbooks, isn't it? But....ultimately I wouldn't comply, because once the cat is out of the bag, it's never going back in again. The whole IDEA of encryption is to make it impossible. If you render it possible, then everyone is at risk.

I cannot recall an instant where the people give the government some extraordinary power, and then when the government is done with it, they give it back. Have you ever seen such a thing?

I would rather live more free and bear the risk of some terrorism. After all, it's never ever going to go away--let's get real about it.

suydam

I have backup cams on both vehicles. Love them. The Buick also beeps if a car or a person is coming behind you. Very helpful in crowded lots or backing out onto a street.

PF_Flyer

suydam said:

I have backup cams on both vehicles. Love them. The Buick also beeps if a car or a person is coming behind you. Very helpful in crowded lots or backing out onto a street.

Crowded lots, definitely. But for parked cars, not moving traffic, at least for me. I like to get "eyes on"

abacomike

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's one of those great moral dilemmas you read about in textbooks, isn't it? But....ultimately I wouldn't comply, because once the cat is out of the bag, it's never going back in again. The whole IDEA of encryption is to make it impossible. If you render it possible, then everyone is at risk. I cannot recall an instant where the people give the government some extraordinary power, and then when the government is done with it, they give it back. Have you ever seen such a thing? I would rather live more free and bear the risk of some terrorism. After all, it's never ever going to go away--let's get real about it.

Without a doubt - you make a great point for Apple's case.  But what about the safety and security of the country and its citizens?  There is the dilemma I am talking about.

PF_Flyer

The technology talk reminds me. Do we REALLY need to have WIFI in our cars? I'm pretty close to banning passenger cell phone use while I'm driving other than things like letting them know we're gonna be late, or you can start putting out lunch 'cause we're almost there. My sister LIVES on her phone, and we're only 2 years apart in age, so it's NOT because I'm a Luddite... at least that's how I figgered it on my slide rule

stever

Bring on the autonomous cars please. Sometimes I just want to ride and enjoy the scenery and play a little pinball on the iPad.

PF_Flyer

stever said:

Bring on the autonomous cars please. Sometimes I just want to ride and enjoy the scenery and play a little pinball on the iPad.

Pinball is a game of physical skill... as long as it isn't on a "device"...LOL

venture

PF_Flyer said:

venture said:

My Fusion has a back-up camera and the sensors. While backing it will turn green, then yellow, then red when you are a few inches away. It will beep slowly, then faster until it's a steady beep when you get to red. It also has the white lines that move when you move the steering wheel to show you, approximately, where you will end up.

I didn't think I would like it or use it, but I do.

Our Note has a backup camera, Being a hatchback, it tends to get pretty dirty in the winter. I find it most useful once I've used my head and mirrors and am backing into a spot or close quarters. Also useful in getting lined up backing out of narrow driveways like the shrub lined one at my brother's place.

I like it mostly for backing into a parking spot at a baseball game - something I rarely do, but you can't get out after the game unless you pull out.

stickguy

I love the back up camera. Have to have that. The big issue now is most cars have terrible rear visibility. High deck lids, little windows, huge rear headrests. Way too much dead area! the camera makes it much safer and more accurate, plus you can get much closer not having to leave so large of a wiggle room.

the crosspath alert is also a great feature, especially when you are trying to back out from between a couple of SUVs or F150s.

abacomike

I just got my electric bill for Jsnuary-February - $27.10 including fees and taxes.  This is the lowest electric bill I have ever received since owning this condo.  I really attribute the low bill to the new fridge and cool temps.  Unbelievable - less than a dollar a day.  Unheard of! 

PF_Flyer

venture said:

I like it mostly for backing into a parking spot at a baseball game - something I rarely do, but you can't get out after the game unless you pull out.

I'll park farther away and do a pull-thru so as not to throw a monkey wrench into the stadium parking process by doing the back-in. Gonna take close to forever to get out anyway. First time I ever went to old Memorial Stadium in Baltimore, they had bumper parking. Just pull into the lot and stop behind the guy in front of you. Many, many rows of cars, all facing in the same direction, totally dependent on the first guy getting back to his vehicle.

houdini1

My vote goes to the FBI on this one.

oldfarmer50

dino001 said:

I just learned Mazda post quite pitiful numbers for February - 15 percent decline YoY. Their whole 2015 was negative 10 percent. This is terrible. I always liked their cars, I'm quite surprised it got so bad for no other reason than perhaps slow model development. They didn't have any scandal, yet can't get any love at all, it seems. Looks like they may be going Mitsubishi in the US market (i.e. existing, but pretty much irrelevant), which is really shame, considering how good their product is. I guess Toyota, Honda are simply taking their share and improvements in domestic models may be contributing, as well

That's a shame. I love the look of the Mazda 6 and @270hp it seems competitive with rivals. Aren't Mazdas supose to be better handling cars (zoom zoom)? That would seem to be a potent combo.

Mr_Shiftright

Well it's a matter of degree. The government already has massive tools in force to keep you "safe", or as safe as you're likely to get. Busting Apple's encryption will not, I don't think, make you any safer to any measurable degree, but you have given the government a most precious right of privacy in exchange for......what really? In reality, nothing much.

andres3

snakeweasel said:

suydam said:

snakeweasel said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

stever said:

iluvmysephia1 said:

Even though I haven't even test-driven an Audi or a BMW before, I could see how I might like one. An S4 perhaps - I just tread carefully with costs

Audi just blew the doors off in the 2016 Consumer Reports best car brands report. "They need to have consistency across a range of models in reliability and drive quality to get to the top," (USA Today)

So everything we thought we knew about spotty reliability of Audis is wrong.

Kia came in at number 9, a couple of spots ahead of Hyundai, which surprised me.

Doesn't say what the basis for this "reliability" is, but apparently, using the same testing methods, the top single car was the Chevrolet Impala. So I guess we can say Chevrolets are better than Audis?

Doesn't CR use self reporting surveys to make these reliability lists? If so those surveys are notoriously inaccurate.

The database is huge and extends over many years. If they don't have enough data (new model, not enough buyers reporting), they won't make an evaluation.

It may be huge and extend over many years but it still is a self reported survey and self reported surveys are unreliable.

Depends what you are self reporting about. That is an overly blanket generalization that just doesn't pass muster.

ab348

oldfarmer50 said:

That's a shame. I love the look of the Mazda 6 and @270hp it seems competitive with rivals. Aren't Mazdas supose to be better handling cars (zoom zoom)? That would seem to be a potent combo.

The Mazda 6 does not have a 270hp engine but rather a naturally aspirated 4 cylinder that puts out what one would expect of such an engine. It has been reported by reviewers as feeling adequate and not much more. The chassis dynamics are loved by reviewers. Others have complained of NVH issues and a tight rear compartment. Mazdas have also not been known to be the most robust vehicles. Finally they are a relatively small company with less of an ad budget, smaller dealer network, and less money to devote to R&D than the big manufacturers.

andres3

abacomike said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

It's one of those great moral dilemmas you read about in textbooks, isn't it? But....ultimately I wouldn't comply, because once the cat is out of the bag, it's never going back in again. The whole IDEA of encryption is to make it impossible. If you render it possible, then everyone is at risk.

I cannot recall an instant where the people give the government some extraordinary power, and then when the government is done with it, they give it back. Have you ever seen such a thing?

I would rather live more free and bear the risk of some terrorism. After all, it's never ever going to go away--let's get real about it.

Without a doubt - you make a great point for Apple's case.  But what about the safety and security of the country and its citizens?  There is the dilemma I am talking about.

More American people are killed by trigger-happy ego-maniacal cops each year than by Terrorists. We should focus our resources where they can actually do some good; numbers matter.

houdini1

My vote goes to the FBI on this one.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well it's a matter of degree. The government already has massive tools in force to keep you "safe", or as safe as you're likely to get. Busting Apple's encryption will not, I don't think, make you any safer to any measurable degree, but you have given the government a most precious right of privacy in exchange for......what really? In reality, nothing much.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well it's a matter of degree. The government already has massive tools in force to keep you "safe", or as safe as you're likely to get. Busting Apple's encryption will not, I don't think, make you any safer to any measurable degree, but you have given the government a most precious right of privacy in exchange for......what really? In reality, nothing much.

Apple takes the phone in house, downloads all info to disk, etc, gives disk to FBI. How is Apples encryption compromised? The whole operation should have been done privately, not publicly.

snakeweasel

abacomike said:

It is rare, indeed, that I find myself incapable of deciding whether a statement, a policy, a law, a Supreme Court Decision, a President's decision or a hypothetical situation is appropriate - in other words is it my opinion that the action taken is correct. I am a very opinionated individual - but I have been known to change or alter my opinion or decision about such actions.

Pretty long sentence, even in linguistic terms.  

I've been watching and listening and following this impasse between Apple and the FBI and the courts regarding whether or not Apple should be forced to provide the FBI with a back-door access to their encrypted iPhone IOS system in order to subvert the auto-erase fail-safe regarding security codes on their phones.  Should Apple be required to comply with the court order in California?   I AM CAUGHT BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE ON THIS ISSUE - A SORT OF CATCH-22!. I agree with Apple and their position - but I also agree with the FBI's position.  I really don't know which decision is correct - to comply or not to comply - that is the question!  

This is a bit tricky. Like you I see both positions on this issue. I will say this though, it is the camels nose in the tent. Let the FBI do this then the precedence is set and it's only a matter of time before it's used again and again.

snakeweasel

andres3 said:

snakeweasel said:

suydam said:

snakeweasel said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

stever said:

iluvmysephia1 said:

Even though I haven't even test-driven an Audi or a BMW before, I could see how I might like one. An S4 perhaps - I just tread carefully with costs

Audi just blew the doors off in the 2016 Consumer Reports best car brands report. "They need to have consistency across a range of models in reliability and drive quality to get to the top," (USA Today)

So everything we thought we knew about spotty reliability of Audis is wrong.

Kia came in at number 9, a couple of spots ahead of Hyundai, which surprised me.

Doesn't say what the basis for this "reliability" is, but apparently, using the same testing methods, the top single car was the Chevrolet Impala. So I guess we can say Chevrolets are better than Audis?

Doesn't CR use self reporting surveys to make these reliability lists? If so those surveys are notoriously inaccurate.

The database is huge and extends over many years. If they don't have enough data (new model, not enough buyers reporting), they won't make an evaluation.

It may be huge and extend over many years but it still is a self reported survey and self reported surveys are unreliable.

Depends what you are self reporting about. That is an overly blanket generalization that just doesn't pass muster.

Sorry it doesn't depend on what you are self reporting. In any self reporting surveys there is a strong bias of those doing the reporting. People replying to surveys like this can either respond based on perception , on idealized views, with wishful thinking, on frustrations and a few other things that can cloud judgment in these areas participants can even be lying. Even something like timing can cloud a persons reporting. Say a minor electrical issue with a car happing now could cause the respondent to give the car bad marks. Yet six months down the road that same person may have a different view on the situation and think it's not as bad.

It's not a overly blanket generalization since groups that do such surveys go through extensive steps to weed out issues with self reporting surveys. And some just won't do them because of issues with them. Just remember that a few years ago there was such a survey that showed that about 10% of the UK's pregnant teenagers were virgins.

snakeweasel

houdini1 said:

My vote goes to the FBI on this one.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well it's a matter of degree. The government already has massive tools in force to keep you "safe", or as safe as you're likely to get. Busting Apple's encryption will not, I don't think, make you any safer to any measurable degree, but you have given the government a most precious right of privacy in exchange for......what really? In reality, nothing much.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well it's a matter of degree. The government already has massive tools in force to keep you "safe", or as safe as you're likely to get. Busting Apple's encryption will not, I don't think, make you any safer to any measurable degree, but you have given the government a most precious right of privacy in exchange for......what really? In reality, nothing much.

Apple takes the phone in house, downloads all info to disk, etc, gives disk to FBI. How is Apples encryption compromised? The whole operation should have been done privately, not publicly.

My understanding is that Apple currently does not have a way to do this and must create a program to get in the phone. Secondly the encryption is compromised since all the FBI has to do is take the next phone to Apple to get them to download all the information, then the next and then the next. Where do you stop?

stickguy

isn't every survey self reporting though, since only the people that want to respond will? Telephone, mail, whatever. And it can't be random, since it has to be owners.

venture

PF_Flyer said:

venture said:

I like it mostly for backing into a parking spot at a baseball game - something I rarely do, but you can't get out after the game unless you pull out.

I'll park farther away and do a pull-thru so as not to throw a monkey wrench into the stadium parking process by doing the back-in. Gonna take close to forever to get out anyway. First time I ever went to old Memorial Stadium in Baltimore, they had bumper parking. Just pull into the lot and stop behind the guy in front of you. Many, many rows of cars, all facing in the same direction, totally dependent on the first guy getting back to his vehicle.

I'm selective where I park. Always try to park next to a curb with a tree. That way they can only smash their doors into one side. Usually I have to back in, but I agree on the pull-thru.

And the first guy there is probably the drunkest and takes his good old stumbling time to get back to his car...lol. What a system.

ab348

snakeweasel said:

My understanding is that Apple currently does not have a way to do this and must create a program to get in the phone. Secondly the encryption is compromised since all the FBI has to do is take the next phone to Apple to get them to download all the information, then the next and then the next. Where do you stop?

Right now you hear about cases all the time where police have someone's computer or phone and use tools at their disposal to extract information the perp thought they had deleted or password-protected. Is this all that different? When did encryption of information in a criminal matter become a constitutional right?

stever

PF_Flyer said:

stever said:

Bring on the autonomous cars please. Sometimes I just want to ride and enjoy the scenery and play a little pinball on the iPad.

Pinball is a game of physical skill... as long as it isn't on a "device"...LOL

Horsefeathers. The iPad (and the iPhone) has an accelerometer and you certainly can use physical skill to bump the board to change the trajectory of the ball(s) in play.

And yes, you can tilt the sucker too.

imidazol97

Somewhere I heard the point that Apple collects lots of information about their product users in various and many ways. Hypocritical of Apple that it's okay for them to collect information about their users in more ways that the users can imagine while determining that government security in a one-off cracking in a criminal case shouldn't be allowed. I say crack the [non-permissible content deleted] phone.

I see a related protest when people realized that the computer in their automobile was capable of telling on them because it stored information about their driving. Remember how upset some folks were? Some even worked to disconnect the OnStar antenna in their vehicle thinking it allowed the car company to "spy" on them. Apple, and perhaps other phone makers, are collecting info all the time.

Mr_Shiftright

Playing pinball on a "device" isn't the same because it's not as physical. You're not using your whole body. Also you miss the Ritual of inserting the coin, pulling the loading rod and being surrounded by light and sound.

Mr_Shiftright

snakeweasel said:

houdini1 said:

My vote goes to the FBI on this one.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well it's a matter of degree. The government already has massive tools in force to keep you "safe", or as safe as you're likely to get. Busting Apple's encryption will not, I don't think, make you any safer to any measurable degree, but you have given the government a most precious right of privacy in exchange for......what really? In reality, nothing much.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well it's a matter of degree. The government already has massive tools in force to keep you "safe", or as safe as you're likely to get. Busting Apple's encryption will not, I don't think, make you any safer to any measurable degree, but you have given the government a most precious right of privacy in exchange for......what really? In reality, nothing much.

Apple takes the phone in house, downloads all info to disk, etc, gives disk to FBI. How is Apples encryption compromised? The whole operation should have been done privately, not publicly.

My understanding is that Apple currently does not have a way to do this and must create a program to get in the phone. Secondly the encryption is compromised since all the FBI has to do is take the next phone to Apple to get them to download all the information, then the next and then the next. Where do you stop?

Bingo! Apple doesn't even know how to do it, so once you create the software mole to get in there, then it's just like a A-Bomb. You can't ever put it back in the box.

stever

Mr_Shiftright said:

Playing pinball on a "device" isn't the same because it's not as physical. You're not using your whole body.

Wanna bet?

I owned a pinball machine for 3 years in my 20s and I'm telling you, the app is as good as it gets.

Even better in most ways, since you can play just about anywhere. I do get a few odd looks now and then while moving my arms and doing the occasional leg kick when I need a bit of extra English.

venture

A few days ago there was some discussion about the 2017 Ford Fusion Sport and the pothole mitigation option. Here's a short video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a880GXUjz50

Mr_Shiftright

stever said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Playing pinball on a "device" isn't the same because it's not as physical. You're not using your whole body.

Wanna bet?

I owned a pinball machine for 3 years in my 20s and I'm telling you, the app is as good as it gets.

C'mon, it's this dinky little screen with fake noises. OK, I'll try it. What's it called again?

stever

Wild West Pinball.

Your target score is ~68 million. My average runs between 10 and 20 million.

explorerx4

The phone in question is not private property, so I don't think the same rules apply as would if it were privately owned.
Personally, I feel that there is already a way to open it.

roadburner

stickguy said:

isn't every survey self reporting though, since only the people that want to respond will? Telephone, mail, whatever. And it can't be random, since it has to be owners.

In my opinion the self-reporting aspect essentially means that the CR reliability results are only useful as a very rough estimate of how a given car will hold up- at best. The fact that only CR subscribers participate skew the results even more. I don't have the time or inclination to do a complete analysis, but I've noticed that CR's Owner Satisfaction ratings don't track the reliability ratings all that well either.

stever

I like skimming newsletters from Warranty Week. When the public automakers publish their warranty reserve numbers you can get an idea of how well their build quality is going, at least for the warranty period. 2013 was a high point for GM for example, and Ford usually does better than GM. Unfortunately, FCA isn't public so it's getting harder to get warranty accrual numbers about them.

Never hear much about True Delta; don't seem to have ever hit critical mass.

abacomike

I don't know if I can make it to Election Day in November without having weekly therapeutic sessions with a renowned psychiatrist to learn coping skills and techniques to keep from going crazy.  I mean like enough is enough already!

This is just March 1st - 8 more months of name-calling, lying, fighting, etc.  Think about it - almost enough time for a human embryo to reach full maturity in the womb and be born into this world; about the same amount of time I own my average car; about the same amount of time the average kid is in school every year.  Also consider the fact that we've been living through this since last summer!

I know it's important to have sufficient time to listen to and observe candidates in order to learn as much as you can about their philosophy and ideas, but I have reached the point where I don't want to know any more about any of the candidates!  But, unfortunately, there are 8 more months of this nonsense left before I can get a 2-1/2 year respite from this periodic process.

There "ought-to-be-a-law" that only permits 3 months (August, September and October) for electioneering and running for President and Vice President of the United States.  If anyone even mentions they want to run for President prior to August of an election year, they would be immediately disqualified from running for any public office.  

This is not a political statement nor am I being political about anything.  But I'd rather be forced to watch a new car commercial every fifteen minutes than have to go through another 8 months of this!  Thanks for letting me "vent"!  

stever

Kill your TV.

Then kill this thread.

stickguy

you can always tell when your states primary is coming up. and the day after, miraculously all the ads disappear.

I believe Mike is in the deluge phase at the moment, since they are coming up soon.

what is even worse is when you live in a border state. I get my TV out of Philadelphia, though I live in NJ, and will get swamped with commercials for people running for offices in PA, that I can't even vote for!

stever

Have to admit I'm watching TV on one of my monitors.

Houston, Scott Kelly has landed.

abacomike

stickguy said:

you can always tell when your states primary is coming up. and the day after, miraculously all the ads disappear. I believe Mike is in the deluge phase at the moment, since they are coming up soon. what is even worse is when you live in a border state. I get my TV out of Philadelphia, though I live in NJ, and will get swamped with commercials for people running for offices in PA, that I can't even vote for!

Actually, we have not yet been deluged with political ads here in South Florida.  But now that Super Tuesday is over, I expect that deluge to begin shortly.

What I am saying is that this election cycle is the worst I can ever remember in regard to mud slinging.  

stickguy

yes, this one has been a bit "different" to say the least. will make an interesting case study for political science classes though.

roadburner

I'm a political junkie- so I'm having a ball!!!

abacomike

i wish I could say "ditto" roadburner - I just can't! 

cdnpinhead

There's a lot to be said for the British system in which the date for a major election is unknown until a few months before.

tjc78

Insurance.... as you all know like many of us other posters I live in NJ and pay crazy car insurance. I was doing the bills the other night and saw my renewal of $2900 (2 clean drivers, 2 cars full coverage) and thought about taking collision off the 04. Well it's only about $275 a year so I decided to leave it. What I did find was a $100 yearly fee for a "vehicle warranty" on the '15 Enclave. What? Why do I need a warranty for a vehicle that will never be out of warranty while I own it (leased 3yr). So bottom line all, double check your policies to see if anything is on there that you don't need.

In my case, when I bought the Enclave I called to add it on right at the dealer and the cost was within a few dollars of the Lacrosse I was replacing so never looked line by line. The Gecko is sneaky, but I'm sure other insurance companies do it too. I'm going to shop around and see if I can do better, I've been with Geico for a long time maybe I can get a cheaper quote.