Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

snakeweasel

stickguy said:

I still think that they will never really take root. Just too many shortcomings. And no way anyone is going to sign up for a long highway drive at exactly the speed limit!

I would if it ment that I could sleep in the back or post stuff on Edmunds. Me and my wife often go down to Springfield for the state fair and stay late, it would be great after a long day to just get in a car and have it drive me home while I am relaxing, or even sleeping on the way home.

snakeweasel

stickguy said:

also, will the autocar swerve around potholes? If not, major problem!

Didn't you see that post the other day about anti pothole technology?

dino001

abacomike said:

@dino001 said:

"Mike, did you keep any of those for more than 3, 5, or 7 years?"

Yes I did Dino.  I had a 1991 300E I leased in San Diego for 5 years and kept it for the full 5 years - 67,000 miles.  All I did was have regular services on it - no problems at all!  Just replaced a battery and 2 sets of tires - the desert heat played havoc on the battery and the tires.  Had one set of disc brakes replaced and that was it.

It's funny, as I mentioned, early 90s were when Benz changed their design philosophy from long to short term. So you possibly had the last good long-term Benz . I believe they are slowly coming back to that, as Benz surely lost some of its brand reputation due to those issues, but the inertia and incentives for focusing on short term reliability (good enough, rather best it can possibly be), especially that the pressure from the new car customer is on features, not 10 year durability. Benz is certainly not alone doing that - in fact prior 90s it was reputation of Japanese cars in Europe that they don't last over 5, then 8 years, then they died as a whole in big blocks. I think some of that was true, some was German and French propaganda spread in their domestic markets. Japanese, however, learned very quickly that every 15 year old Civic or Corolla without problems was their best advertisement for a new one, while Germans moved in the exact opposite direction.

snakeweasel

abacomike said:

snakeweasel said:

abacomike said:

dino001 said:

andres3 said:

Lots of Mercedes still have the Chrysler poor reliability bug.

I disagree. As I recall, subpar to poor reliability was maring Benz well before the Chrysler merger. It all started some time in early 90s, when Benz's focus changed from making cars for the lifetime to those for the first customer, leasing it for 3 years. Chrysler might have exacerbate this, but Benz was on its way to do that, anyway. I think they are now pulling back from that stance, but ever so slowly.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have owned 15 new Mercerdes-Benz automobiles in the last 30 years. I had a problem with only one of them - the 2013 White E350. It had leaking injectors which caused the car to stall frequently after I had run it for 20+ minutes. If I parked it and then less than 30 minutes later I started it again, it would choke and stall. Mercedes had the car for 2 weeks and after trying to identify which injector was causing the problem, they replaced all of them, which solved the problem.

Be that as it may but that's a new MB every two years. Most manufacturers produce cars that can go 30K miles give or take over two tears with little, if any, issues. My ideal or reliability is getting past 150K miles with few issues and never being without your car.

Would you try to take a Benz to 200K miles?

Considering that I only drive about 9000 miles a year, I'd be long dead by the time my current car hit 200,000 miles at that rate. 

I told the wife that I will try to get the ragtop to 200K, but I am only putting about 1K/month on it now so it will take me almost 9 years to get there. I bought it in 2009 with just under 19K on the clock and here it is 7 years later with just over 105K on the clock. So 87K miles in just under 7 years so at that rate in another 7 years I will have 192 K on the clock.

stickguy

need a lawyer to weigh in, but I'll bet that there will be disclaimers all over that the driver still has to be in control, paying attention, etc. IOW, responsible.

so when your pod runs over someone while you are sleeping off a drunk in the back seat, guess who is held responsible? Not Google or GM!

Mr_Shiftright

You can cobble together a way to stream Pandora in Canada to your home I think.

abacomike said:

@driver100

dino001 said:

Mike, did you keep any if those for more than 3, 5, or 7 years?

Or even 1 (one) year!

Yes, driver.  The 91 Benz, the 2014 CLS550, the 2013 E350, and the 2015 E400 I had for 11 months, 3 weeks.

Yes but you are a database of one. My friend's new C300 (2015 model) has had one electrical glitch after another. The last time they had the car for 5 days. The latest escapade is battery failure, just happened yesterday. He's not thrilled but he loves the car.

abacomike

stickguy said:

need a lawyer to weigh in, but I'll bet that there will be disclaimers all over that the driver still has to be in control, paying attention, etc. IOW, responsible. so when your pod runs over someone while you are sleeping off a drunk in the back seat, guess who is held responsible? Not Google or GM!

Jack Daniels?  Jim Beam? Johnny Walker?  King Louie XIV? 

Mr_Shiftright

You probably won't own your fully autonomous car anyway. You'll "summon" it from your cell phone, or multi-function voice activated Gratification Pod.

driver100

Mr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 50,170
9:26PM
You can cobble together a way to stream Pandora in Canada to your home I think.

You would have to be able to get it through a US email account. It recognizes the signal is going to Canada and they don't have copyright authority to send music to Canada. I tried!

Unless you know how to get around that, and there are ways, but, I can't and wouldn't do it.

stickguy

sounds practical. When the wife needs something from the store to finish making dinner, won't take more than 6 hours to get the car out to the burbs!\

This is also sounding suspiciously like Uber at this point.

driver100

stickguy said:

need a lawyer to weigh in, but I'll bet that there will be disclaimers all over that the driver still has to be in control, paying attention, etc. IOW, responsible.

so when your pod runs over someone while you are sleeping off a drunk in the back seat, guess who is held responsible? Not Google or GM!

I think it was Google said they would be responsible for the cars actions....they think it will do better than a real human being - remember it can compute 1000s of times faster.

imidazol97

That 1000's of times faster reaction must not be working very well!

Google self-driving car strikes bus on California street

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SELF_DRIVING_CARS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2016-02-29-12-40-00

roadburner

snakeweasel said:

Would you try to take a Benz to 200K miles?

Not a M-B, but my wife's X3 has over 184k on it and we fully expect to drive it past 200k.

roadburner

Well, at 30 days in I calculated the 2er's fuel economy and it seems that I'm getting a tick over 24 mpg. I can't complain about that.

stickguy

what did the Speed3 get incomparable use? Does not seem bad for something that powerful.

Miss the Mazda at all?

roadburner

stickguy said:

what did the Speed3 get incomparable use? Does not seem bad for something that powerful.

Miss the Mazda at all?

The MS3 returned around 26 or more. The Mazda turned out to be a great car, but after 8 years I was ready to move on. My main regret is that Mazda didn't build the rumored 300 hp AWD Mazdaspeed 3.

tjc78

Pandora can be used in Canada with some trickery.  You can either use a VPN service or a proxy server that fools
their system into thinking you are in the US.  I'm not sure it's worth the trouble but can be done.  

jpp75

stickguy said:

From that list, it works out that, on average, if you buy the "best" car you will have 1 problem, and 2 if you buy the "worst" car.

This ain't the 70's any longer!

I remember looking at a list by model in the early 90's. The 1988 Lincoln Continental was the worst (which my parents had the unfortunate experience of owning), it had something close to 300 problems for every 100 vehicles. My Dad used to say we got all 300 of those problems.

driver100

imidazol97 said:

That 1000's of times faster reaction must not be working very well!

Google self-driving car strikes bus on California street

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SELF_DRIVING_CARS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2016-02-29-12-40-00

A few things:

This from the article....Google cars have been involved in nearly a dozen collisions in or around Mountain View since starting to test on city streets in the spring of 2014. In most cases, Google's cars were rear-ended. No one has been seriously injured.

Google's written statement called the Feb. 14 collision "a classic example of the negotiation that's a normal part of driving - we're all trying to predict each other's movements."

Google said its computers have reviewed the incident and engineers changed the software that governs the cars to understand that buses may not be as inclined to yield as other vehicles.

Anything new is a work in progress, they will change the programs to allow for this kind of situations. I am sure when the first cars were made people said it will never work.

Next, I see it being used on long trips for the most part. Once you are on the highway you set it and all traffic can stay in one lane and everyone can move at the same speed...maybe even 100 mph or 150, because all traffic in the through lane can move at the same speed,

Enter I-75 in Detroit, set it to reach Tampa FL, put the car in the left lane, it goes the same speed as all the cars...150 mph, if you need a break just tell it and it looks for a clear lane to start to move to the right. You take controls once on the exit ramp.

tjc78

Those Continentals were turds. They basically were a fancy Taurus, with the infamous 3.8L V6 which blew a head gasket if you looked at it too hard. Air suspension that was flaky at best, and electronics to match. I had a 93 Taurus LX with the 3.8 and constantly was chasing issues (including a head gasket at 80K), however, I knew someone with a base model 3.0 Vulcan V6 and they drove it forever only with basic maintenance.

nyccarguy

@tjc78 - I remember my parents test driving one of those continentals before they bought their 1990 MB 300E.  With 5 people in the car (mom, dad, my sister, me, & salesman), the car struggled to take off from a light at the top of a steep hill (@stickguy - right by the Saturn dealership on 303 North after the palisades mall).  The salesman said to my parents:  well, you never really have 5 people in the car anyway

stickguy

So glorified laser cruise and lane watch!

jpp75

tjc78 said:

Those Continentals were turds. They basically were a fancy Taurus, with the infamous 3.8L V6 which blew a head gasket if you looked at it too hard. Air suspension that was flaky at best, and electronics to match. I had a 93 Taurus LX with the 3.8 and constantly was chasing issues (including a head gasket at 80K), however, I knew someone with a base model 3.0 Vulcan V6 and they drove it forever only with basic maintenance.

We had the head gasket issue, the air suspension was a nightmare, the O-rings in the AC system failed consistently, window regulators, electronic dash failed and had to be replaced.

My dad was a die hard Ford guy, but they replaced the Continental with a Camry and drove them for the next 18 years.

jpp75

nyccarguy said:

@tjc78 - I remember my parents test driving one of those continentals before they bought their 1990 MB 300E.  With 5 people in the car (mom, dad, my sister, me, & salesman), the car struggled to take off from a light at the top of a steep hill (@stickguy - right by the Saturn dealership on 303 North after the palisades mall).  The salesman said to my parents:  well, you never really have 5 people in the car anyway

We came from a 1985 Mercury Colony Park so the Continental was small and quick compared to the Colony Park.

Those were dark days for the American auto industry.

PF_Flyer

stickguy said:

need a lawyer to weigh in, but I'll bet that there will be disclaimers all over that the driver still has to be in control, paying attention, etc. IOW, responsible.

Timely. I just saw someone's review of the RAV4 complaining that the "pre-collision braking system" doesn't always engage, and sure enough, it's right there in the manual on page 240

■
Limitations of the pre-collision system
●
The driver is solely responsible for safe driving. Always drive safely, taking
care to observe your surroundings.
Do not use the pre-collision system instead of normal braking operations
under any circumstances. This system will not prevent collisions or lessen
collision damage or injury in every situation. Do not overly rely on this sys-
tem. Failure to do so may lead to an accident, resulting in death or serious
injury.
●
Although this system is designed to help avoid and reduce the impact of a
collision, its effectiveness may change according to various conditions,
therefore the system may not always be able to achieve the same level of
performance.
Read the following conditions carefully. Do not overly rely on this system
and always drive carefully.
• Conditions under which the system may operate even if there is no pos-
sibility of a collision:

P. 247
• Conditions under which the system may not operate properly:

P. 249
●
Do not attempt to test the operation of the pre-collision system yourself, as
the system may not operate properly, possibly leading to an accident.
■
Pre-collision braking
*
3
●
The pre-collision braking function may not operate if certain operations are
performed by the driver. If the accelerator pedal is being depressed
strongly or the steering wheel is being turned, the system may determine
that the driver is taking evasive action and possibly prevent the pre-colli-
sion braking function from operating.
●
In some situations, while the pre-collision braking function is operating,
operation of the function may be canceled if the accelerator pedal is
depressed strongly or the steering wheel is turned and the system deter-
mines that the driver is taking evasive action.
●
A large amount of braking force is applied while the pre-collision braking
function is operating. Additionally, as the vehicle may creep if it has been
stopped by the pre-collision braking function, the driver should depress the
brake pedal as necessary.
●
If the brake pedal is being depressed, the system may determine that the
driver is taking evasive action and possibly delay the operation timing of
the pre-collision braking function.
*
3
: Depending on the region in which the vehicle was sold, the pre-collision
braking function may not be available

All this "don't have to worry about it" stuff IS stuff you need to worry about when you're driving. I'll park my own car, thank you.

abacomike

Speaking of Collision Avoidance Systems, Mercedes-Benz made the "auto-braking" aspect of their more expensive Driver Assistance Package standard on their 2016 cars. It operates by radar and another kind of sensor. First it measures the distance between the car and an object. If the computer determines that a collision may be imminent, it warns the driver by sounding an alarm signal and a dash warning light. If the driver does not take action (step on the brake or not step on the brake hard enough), the brakes are applied and brings the car to a complete stop.

The problem with these systems is that if there is a large enough traffic sign, especially on the left side of the road, the alert sounds and the idiot light flashes even though the sign is not on the roadway. I've run into this a few times with signs that are only a foot or so off to the side of the road. But I've become accustomed to hearing the alert and immediately look for a sign and sure enough, that's what it is.

But I do like the alert because it senses a car facing you making a left turn in front of you if it begins to move into your lane. I have not had the car apply its brakes yet because I have not experienced a situation where a collision is imminent.

I do like the blind spot monitors - the lane tracking monitors merely vibrate the steering wheel if my directional signals are not engaged and I begin to cross a traffic line. If turn signals are engaged, the steering wheel does not alert you.

The only thing I miss on this car that I have had on my previous two other cars are the parking sensors. I did not get the parking assist package for obvious reasons, but I sure wish they would make that systems standard on cars - it used to help me know when I was close to a parking stump, a curb, and also how close I was to a wall in front of me when I pull straight in. I am just more cautious than I used to be when pulling in or out of a parking space at he mall or supermarket.

verdugo

stickguy said:

but I don't expect to ever see a day where I will fire up an app on my phone, hit "send a pod" and have a driverless transportation module show up at my house to take me to Walmart!

And you never will. When we get to that level of sophistication, we won't be going to Walmart anymore. You'll order everything from home, most of it automatically, and it will be delivered to your house.

verdugo

driver100 said:

Mr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 50,170
9:26PM
You can cobble together a way to stream Pandora in Canada to your home I think.

You would have to be able to get it through a US email account. It recognizes the signal is going to Canada and they don't have copyright authority to send music to Canada. I tried!

Unless you know how to get around that, and there are ways, but, I can't and wouldn't do it.

Get the cheapest T-Mobile plan you can get. Pandora streaming (and other music services) don't count towards your data usage. It might be cheaper than your prepaid phone.

T-Mobile doesn't have contracts, so you can start service before you drive down and cancel after you get back to Canada.

driver100

stickguy said:

So glorified laser cruise and lane watch!

Exactly!

I forgot to mention in this part "Enter I-75 in Detroit, set it to reach Tampa FL, put the car in the left lane, it goes the same speed as all the cars...150 mph,".......hope and pray you don't hit anything at that speed.

driver100

verdugo said:

driver100 said:

Mr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 50,170
9:26PM
You can cobble together a way to stream Pandora in Canada to your home I think.

You would have to be able to get it through a US email account. It recognizes the signal is going to Canada and they don't have copyright authority to send music to Canada. I tried!

Unless you know how to get around that, and there are ways, but, I can't and wouldn't do it.

Get the cheapest T-Mobile plan you can get. Pandora streaming (and other music services) don't count towards your data usage. It might be cheaper than your prepaid phone.

T-Mobile doesn't have contracts, so you can start service before you drive down and cancel after you get back to Canada.

Good info Verdugo....well worth considering.

driver100

PF, Those instructions are hilarious......so if you come up to something on the road you get out the manual and check to see if the car will react or if you should do something...hmmmmm. In other words useless.

I also liked this instruction:
Do not attempt to test the operation of the pre-collision system yourself, as
the system may not operate properly, possibly leading to an accident.

Like I'll just get the car going about 80 and wait until the guy ahead stops and see how well this thing works.

driver100

Mike said The only thing I miss on this car that I have had on my previous two other cars are the parking sensors.

That is a feature we haven't discussed much and I do like that one too. Not sure if they all work the same but when you approach something going forward and back, one light comes on as you get closer, then as you get closer about 2 feet away 2 lights come on, when you are about 1 foot away 3 lights come on, when you are a few inches away it beeps loudly. Great way to tell how far you are from other objects....even senses parking blocks that could dent your lower bumper. I am surprised they wouldn't give you that one.

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

I thought a big problem with the auto cars was that they were too faithful to the law. To the extent that they were a danger out there, and had to be programmed to "cheat" a bit.

I still think that they will never really take root. Just too many shortcomings. And no way anyone is going to sign up for a long highway drive at exactly the speed limit!

in any case, they still have to have full normal driving mode. So what might be of use is a highway mode, for when you are stuck on the 405 for an hour+ stop and go slog. There being able to put it on autopilot seems useful, and reasonably plausible and safe. Just thinking about driving around my area, I can't see it possibly working that I could get in the car in my garage, tell it to get me to the mall at dinner time on a Friday, and stop paying attention til I get there!

I think the real purpose of self drivers will to be the replacement of drivers of commercial vehicles. Considering the acute shortages of drivers due to liability, drug testing and ever more stringent licensing regulations, motor carriers are desperate.

Most trucking companies, taxi companies and (gasp) schools would love to do away with fallible humans.

Mr_Shiftright

driver100 said:

PF, Those instructions are hilarious......so if you come up to something on the road you get out the manual and check to see if the car will react or if you should do something...hmmmmm. In other words useless.

I also liked this instruction:
Do not attempt to test the operation of the pre-collision system yourself, as
the system may not operate properly, possibly leading to an accident.

Like I'll just get the car going about 80 and wait until the guy ahead stops and see how well this thing works.

That's called the Darwin Test. If you fail, you don't get to reproduce.

henryn

driver100 said:

Mike said The only thing I miss on this car that I have had on my previous two other cars are the parking sensors.

That is a feature we haven't discussed much and I do like that one too. Not sure if they all work the same but when you approach something going forward and back, one light comes on as you get closer, then as you get closer about 2 feet away 2 lights come on, when you are about 1 foot away 3 lights come on, when you are a few inches away it beeps loudly. Great way to tell how far you are from other objects....even senses parking blocks that could dent your lower bumper. I am surprised they wouldn't give you that one.


I have this on my 2006 Cadillac DTS. Doesn't have a rear view camera, but it does have parking sensors, front and rear.

Strangely enough, my 2015 Ford F150 has a rear view camera, but does not have front parking sensors.

ab348

My 2011 Regal had the parking sensors in the rear and I quite liked them. Could interpret the beeps to get within inches of what was behind me when I was backing up. My ATS does not have them but does have a backup camera. It is very useful too but in a different way. Not sure which I like better. A combo of both would be excellent, a belt-and-suspenders solution.

nyccarguy

@PF_Flyer - back when the MB CL500 first came out back in 2000, I was working for an ad agency that handles MBUSA's direct mail.  One of my favorite days ever was test drive day where we were invited to MBUSA HQ in NJ to drive some of their latest models.  I was told in a briefing about MB's new braking technology (on the CL500) that senses a panic stop and applies the brakes fully if the car thinks you didn't apply the brakes hard or soon enough.  I was also told that this sophisticated computer was impossible to replicate, so unless there was a real panic situation that there's no way we'd know the technology was even there.  I grabbed the keys to the CL 1st.  I was able to fool the car into thinking it was a panic stop situation.  The guy at MB didn't believe me, so he had the engineering guys plug their computer into the OBD to verify.

venture

ab348 said:

My 2011 Regal had the parking sensors in the rear and I quite liked them. Could interpret the beeps to get within inches of what was behind me when I was backing up. My ATS does not have them but does have a backup camera. It is very useful too but in a different way. Not sure which I like better. A combo of both would be excellent, a belt-and-suspenders solution.

My Fusion has a back-up camera and the sensors. While backing it will turn green, then yellow, then red when you are a few inches away. It will beep slowly, then faster until it's a steady beep when you get to red. It also has the white lines that move when you move the steering wheel to show you, approximately, where you will end up.

I didn't think I would like it or use it, but I do.

oldfarmer50

tjc78 said:

Those Continentals were turds. They basically were a fancy Taurus, with the infamous 3.8L V6 which blew a head gasket if you looked at it too hard. Air suspension that was flaky at best, and electronics to match. I had a 93 Taurus LX with the 3.8 and constantly was chasing issues (including a head gasket at 80K), however, I knew someone with a base model 3.0 Vulcan V6 and they drove it forever only with basic maintenance.

Those (Essex) motors supposedly were very sensitive to overheating like the Chevy 2.8L.(ask me how I know) Funny that Lincoln didn't use the more powerful Duramax 6.

At the end they were putting the 4.6L 4 valve into them but I guess by then it was too late.

dino001

I just learned Mazda post quite pitiful numbers for February - 15 percent decline YoY. Their whole 2015 was negative 10 percent. This is terrible. I always liked their cars, I'm quite surprised it got so bad for no other reason than perhaps slow model development. They didn't have any scandal, yet can't get any love at all, it seems. Looks like they may be going Mitsubishi in the US market (i.e. existing, but pretty much irrelevant), which is really shame, considering how good their product is. I guess Toyota, Honda are simply taking their share and improvements in domestic models may be contributing, as well

stever

I started worrying about Mazda when Ford bailed out.

suydam

I wouldn't dance on their grave just yet. The CX3,5,9 all posted gains. The 6 had a February stop sale. Not sure what to make of the 3's decline as it has been pretty successful so far.

driver100

Warning....don't try this in 50F weather:




In Keswick, Ont., the high climbed near 50F -- warm enough to cause even a thick layer of ice to weaken and melt.

The owner of an Audi S8, which starts at $134,200, learned that the hard way after taking the car out of a spin on an icy lake.

According to drivenwheels.com, the car made it about 5 metres from the shore when it broke through the ice and sank into the water.

Both the driver and passenger made it out of the car safely and the vehicle was recovered, but their good fortune might end there. Insurance won't cover this costly Darwin nominee move.

roadburner

dino001 said:

I just learned Mazda post quite pitiful numbers for February - 15 percent decline YoY. Their whole 2015 was negative 10 percent. This is terrible. I always liked their cars, I'm quite surprised it got so bad for no other reason than perhaps slow model development. They didn't have any scandal, yet can't get any love at all, it seems. Looks like they may be going Mitsubishi in the US market (i.e. existing, but pretty much irrelevant), which is really shame, considering how good their product is. I guess Toyota, Honda are simply taking their share and improvements in domestic models may be contributing, as well

Mazda currently doesn't make anything that interests me; I kept hoping for a new MS3 or Miata coupe to break cover, but no such luck.

nyccarguy

Their cars always get good press.  No guts though.  

tjc78

Wait, the car manufacturer are deleting the sensors and only doing cameras now?  I really like having both.  I'm surprised no one mentioned cross traffic alert.  It's great when backing out of a parking spot. 

PF_Flyer

driver100 said:

Warning....don't try this in 50F weather:




In Keswick, Ont., the high climbed near 50F -- warm enough to cause even a thick layer of ice to weaken and melt.

The owner of an Audi S8, which starts at $134,200, learned that the hard way after taking the car out of a spin on an icy lake.

According to drivenwheels.com, the car made it about 5 metres from the shore when it broke through the ice and sank into the water.

Both the driver and passenger made it out of the car safely and the vehicle was recovered, but their good fortune might end there. Insurance won't cover this costly Darwin nominee move.

I mean, I'm glad that nobody was hurt (except in the wallet), but this whole Darwin thing doesn't thin the herd all that often. Just sayin'

cdnpinhead

venture said:

My Fusion has a back-up camera and the sensors. While backing it will turn green, then yellow, then red when you are a few inches away. It will beep slowly, then faster until it's a steady beep when you get to red. It also has the white lines that move when you move the steering wheel to show you, approximately, where you will end up.

I didn't think I would like it or use it, but I do.

I'm with you. I've rented several cars with backup cameras, and they really are helpful. People like my wife would benefit greatly. I probably would also, but won't admit it.

Just part of the Helen Keller packages that are proliferating I guess.

stickguy

sensors IMO were always somewhat rare. And concentrated on a few certain cars. I have never had a car with them.

Bradd, still with the "Mazda 6's are slow" mantra? Interesting note, I was reading the latest C&D today (came yesterday). They did a 4 car comparo of mid size sedans. Needless to say, the 6 won. Camry got slaughtered. But, the 6 was the quickest in every test (other than 0-100). 0-60, 5-60 street start, 30-70 (or whatever midrange test they do). Mazda was quicker than Camry by far, and also took out the Accord sport. I think it was 7.3 0-60.

might not be a BMW 335, but for base engine mid size sedans (which is what, 90% of sales?) the 6 is the quickest of the bunch!

PF_Flyer

venture said:

My Fusion has a back-up camera and the sensors. While backing it will turn green, then yellow, then red when you are a few inches away. It will beep slowly, then faster until it's a steady beep when you get to red. It also has the white lines that move when you move the steering wheel to show you, approximately, where you will end up.

I didn't think I would like it or use it, but I do.

Our Note has a backup camera, Being a hatchback, it tends to get pretty dirty in the winter. I find it most useful once I've used my head and mirrors and am backing into a spot or close quarters. Also useful in getting lined up backing out of narrow driveways like the shrub lined one at my brother's place.