Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

ab348

qbrozen said:

I fail to see how there can be any doubt or even argument about any of it. It exceeded 30 consecutive days in the shop for one issue. Case closed. No other details even needed, frankly. Show me a lemon law where this is OK.

Ohio lemon law only applies for the first 12 months. This one is outside that. I suspect that will be the key part of whatever argument Cadillac makes (which doesn't have a whole lot else to it near as I can tell).

28firefighter

BTW - @jmonroe - I wish I could say I made up the "Right to Cure" phrase, but it is actually written into the statute. Someone had a sense of humor when they wrote it.

andres3

ab348 said:

qbrozen said:

I fail to see how there can be any doubt or even argument about any of it. It exceeded 30 consecutive days in the shop for one issue. Case closed. No other details even needed, frankly. Show me a lemon law where this is OK.

Ohio lemon law only applies for the first 12 months. This one is outside that. I suspect that will be the key part of whatever argument Cadillac makes (which doesn't have a whole lot else to it near as I can tell).

Wow! And here I thought California's 18 months lemon law was too short. 12 months is ridiculously short. Some cars don't become a lemon until after a couple years, but I guess the lemon law only applies as defined by that particular State's Lemon Law.

thebean

Boys, keep a good thought for me today - it's colonoscopy prep day.  Only allowable intake is stuff like broth, Gatorade, Popsicles, Jello, and water.  Adding to the fun are numerous doses of laxative.    To keep this on topic, you can be sure I will not be venturing out in my Accord any at all today.  

28firefighter

thebean said:

Boys, keep a good thought for me today - it's colonoscopy prep day.  Only allowable intake is stuff like broth, Gatorade, Popsicles, Jello, and water.  Adding to the fun are numerous doses of laxative.    To keep this on topic, you can be sure I will not be venturing out in my Accord any at all today.  

I have one in 4 weeks (due to GI issues, I go every 18 months). I hope they gave you Osmoprep (the pills).

Godspeed, sir!

jmonroe

28firefighter said:

BTW - @jmonroe - I wish I could say I made up the "Right to Cure" phrase, but it is actually written into the statute. Someone had a sense of humor when they wrote it.

Please, don't think for a second, that I was insinuating that you "made up" those phrases. Only some state/township type of lawyers could do something like that. And, I doubt that they had a "sense of humor". More than likely they just didn't want to use the word "DELAY".

Do us guys in here a favor. Start taking notes about the conversations you have with any and all of the people you talk with as this roofing event unfolds. Then post your book in here. It will be far lengthier than any of mine. I don't want the rep of being the biggest novel writer in here anymore.

C'mon man, you gotta do this for me as an ex-Burgher and poster buddy, OK.

jmonroe

jmonroe

andres3 said:

ab348 said:

qbrozen said:

I fail to see how there can be any doubt or even argument about any of it. It exceeded 30 consecutive days in the shop for one issue. Case closed. No other details even needed, frankly. Show me a lemon law where this is OK.

Ohio lemon law only applies for the first 12 months. This one is outside that. I suspect that will be the key part of whatever argument Cadillac makes (which doesn't have a whole lot else to it near as I can tell).

Wow! And here I thought California's 18 months lemon law was too short. 12 months is ridiculously short. Some cars don't become a lemon until after a couple years, but I guess the lemon law only applies as defined by that particular State's Lemon Law.

As written by the car manufactures lobby people in those states and the kickbacks taken by those state thieves that allow the passing of the Lemon Law in that state.

jmonroe

thebean

28firefighter said:

Boys, keep a good thought for me today - it's colonoscopy prep day.  Only allowable intake is stuff like broth, Gatorade, Popsicles, Jello, and water.  Adding to the fun are numerous doses of laxative.    To keep this on topic, you can be sure I will not be venturing out in my Accord any at all today.  

I have one in 4 weeks (due to GI issues, I go every 18 months). I hope they gave you Osmoprep (the pills). Godspeed, sir!

Thank you @28firefighter.  No, my obstinate doctor says the pills don't do a good enough job.  So, I'm stuck drinking a gallon of disgusting liquid yucky stuff.  I need to get a different doctor.  

28firefighter

jmonroe said:

28firefighter said:

BTW - @jmonroe - I wish I could say I made up the "Right to Cure" phrase, but it is actually written into the statute. Someone had a sense of humor when they wrote it.

Please, don't think for a second, that I was insinuating that you "made up" those phrases. Only some state/township type of lawyers could do something like that. And, I doubt that they had a "sense of humor". More than likely they just didn't want to use the word "DELAY".

Do us guys in here a favor. Start taking notes about the conversations you have with any and all of the people you talk with as this roofing event unfolds. Then post your book in here. It will be far lengthier than any of mine. I don't want the rep of being the biggest novel writer in here anymore.

C'mon man, you gotta do this for me as an ex-Burgher and poster buddy, OK.

jmonroe

Oh no no! I didn't think that at all. I truly wish I had so I could have the satisfaction of laughing every time someone had to invoke it.

I will definitely keep you all posted.

ab348

@thebean - I know all about obstinate doctors. The one who did my heart surgery still wires the sternum back together. Other doctors use some kind of hi-tech adhesive. In my case the wires broke leading to them stabbing me internally (what fun) as well as the sternum not knitting back together. The only option was another surgery and by the time they got around to deciding that, it had healed enough that I decided to pass on it. Years earlier I had an endocrinologist who was using me as a guinea pig in some sort of clinical trial about cholesterol levels. He prescribed me some sort of stuff that came in little pouches that I had to mix with orange juice and drink twice a day. It was like you mixed a tablespoon or two of beach sand into the juice, very gritty. Worse yet it seemed to have no effect on my cholesterol. But it certainly had some interesting side effects each morning!

Good luck with your procedure.

28firefighter

thebean said:

28firefighter said:

thebean said:

Boys, keep a good thought for me today - it's colonoscopy prep day.  Only allowable intake is stuff like broth, Gatorade, Popsicles, Jello, and water.  Adding to the fun are numerous doses of laxative.    To keep this on topic, you can be sure I will not be venturing out in my Accord any at all today.  

I have one in 4 weeks (due to GI issues, I go every 18 months). I hope they gave you Osmoprep (the pills).

Godspeed, sir!

Thank you @28firefighter.  No, my obstinate doctor says the pills don't do a good enough job.  So, I'm stuck drinking a gallon of disgusting liquid yucky stuff.  I need to get a different doctor.  


Oh jeez. Go-Lightly is terrible.

js06gv

thebean said:

28firefighter said:

thebean said:

Boys, keep a good thought for me today - it's colonoscopy prep day.  Only allowable intake is stuff like broth, Gatorade, Popsicles, Jello, and water.  Adding to the fun are numerous doses of laxative.    To keep this on topic, you can be sure I will not be venturing out in my Accord any at all today.  

I have one in 4 weeks (due to GI issues, I go every 18 months). I hope they gave you Osmoprep (the pills).

Godspeed, sir!

Thank you @28firefighter.  No, my obstinate doctor says the pills don't do a good enough job.  So, I'm stuck drinking a gallon of disgusting liquid yucky stuff.  I need to get a different doctor.  


And when people tell you that the prep is really the worst part, believe them even though you may be skeptical. I've been through two of those. The most important part is having a firm plan in place with the person driving you home on which drive thru to hit within minutes of leaving the parking lot. You are going to be starving. Trust me on that part. Good luck!

jmonroe

thebean said:

Boys, keep a good thought for me today - it's colonoscopy prep day.  Only allowable intake is stuff like broth, Gatorade, Popsicles, Jello, and water.  Adding to the fun are numerous doses of laxative.    To keep this on topic, you can be sure I will not be venturing out in my Accord any at all today.  

Are you saying you have a slooooow Accord?

Good luck, you'll be fine in no time. But this was a LOT more than we needed to hear. We're doing arbitrations and roofs today.

Hey Mod guys, where's the filter. Didn't you get a whiff of where this could go.

jmonroe

thebean

Thank you guys.  @ab348, those sound like some terrible experiences with doctors.  I hope you have better ones from here on out.  @js06gv, great idea.  I think I'll opt for a Chiplotle burrito with guac.  I've been through these before, so I know about the starving part.  I'm pretty much there right now.  @28firefighter, exactly - golytely is terrible.  

imidazol97

Had colonoscopy in January. Drank the two gallons of stuff in two groups of doses. Over learned to eat liquid and softer diet two days in advance. Done this many times for surgeries and colonoscopies.
I liked my doctor for the previous colo: he put salsa music on the cd player and said he would be dancing during the procedure. 

berri

28 - I know someone in the Seattle area that had a roof issue on a relatively new home that leaked. It turned out the builder didn't put flashing underneath it where a corner in the roof met. Hopefully they will resolve your problem. That makes a mess and can lead to mold issues, so make sure they take care of any insulation, wallboard, etc. that may have gotten wet, even in the attic or a wall.

qbrozen

ab348 said:

qbrozen said:

I fail to see how there can be any doubt or even argument about any of it. It exceeded 30 consecutive days in the shop for one issue. Case closed. No other details even needed, frankly. Show me a lemon law where this is OK.

Ohio lemon law only applies for the first 12 months. This one is outside that. I suspect that will be the key part of whatever argument Cadillac makes (which doesn't have a whole lot else to it near as I can tell).

He's really had it a year? (not counting the first car, of course)


And, not matter what, if GG does not like the outcome of arbitration, he can then file civil suit. I'd wager a jury would find in his favor.

berri

Unfortunately, the lawyer fee (if he can even find one willing to take the case) will suck up a big chunk of any victory money. The legal system is stacked against the little guy in situations like this.

jmonroe

berri said:

Unfortunately, the lawyer fee (if he can even find one willing to take the case) will suck up a big chunk of any victory money. The legal system is stacked against the little guy in situations like this.

That is what I was told by my lawyer BIL when I talked to him about the refused warranty on the '05 XG 350's blown engine.

He said he could give me the name of a firm that had a good reputation with going up against car dealerships when people had good supporting documentation like he said I did. He had almost no doubt that they would take my case and win but it would cost me more than the 3 grand that I lost over selling the car "as is" compared to with a working engine. When I asked him about suing for attorney fees too, I was told that was not an almost guarantee win situation and if I wanted to go that route I better have even deeper pockets and it could take years to settle out. Again, with no assurance of winning. All the while paying for counter motions that would have to filed due to the dealers attorneys filing their motions.

In the end he discouraged me so that is when I decided to go into the "jmonroe vengeance mode".

What little I know about the car biz, I know enough that a handful of lost sales that my dealer lost, and knew he lost because of my vengeance, cost him more than 3 grand. Now, that did not put 3 grand back in my pocket but at least I got some satisfaction about it.

jmonroe

explorerx4

Well Driver, I have been trying to find an E400 sedan on the Mercedes website(USA/CA) or local dealer(USA).
Couldn't find anything, but did a search inventory with a postal code and a whole bunch showed up.
I guess you are good to go with delivery. Maybe you can take a picture and post it. Just don't wear that jailbird shirt.

abacomike

explorerx4 said:

Well Driver, I have been trying to find an E400 sedan on the Mercedes website(USA/CA) or local dealer(USA). Couldn't find anything, but did a search inventory with a postal code and a whole bunch showed up. I guess you are good to go with delivery. Maybe you can take a picture and post it. Just don't wear that jailbird shirt.

The E400 only comes in the coupe and convertible.  No E400 sedans are built for US.  They just came out withe the E43, an AMG version in a sedan - nicely equipped - 6 cylinder twin turbo 394 hp - $81,000+ MSRP.  Only a 4 cylinder in the E300 sedan.  

IMHO, Mercedes made a huge mistake eliminating the 6 cylinder version of the E Class for US consumption.

28firefighter

berri said:

28 - I know someone in the Seattle area that had a roof issue on a relatively new home that leaked. It turned out the builder didn't put flashing underneath it where a corner in the roof met. Hopefully they will resolve your problem. That makes a mess and can lead to mold issues, so make sure they take care of any insulation, wallboard, etc. that may have gotten wet, even in the attic or a wall.

We have what is called a cold roof - it is completely flat over the entire house, has no attic and has no vents. Luckily for us the leak is relatively contained, for now.

Our roofs are flat, torch-down roofs. After an inspection it was revealed that:
(1) We have no cant stripping at all
(2) None of the metal seams are sealed in the roof caps
(3) The torch-down is installed at a 90 degree angle (instead of a 2-45 degree angle) because there was no cant stripping
(4) There was no vapor barrier or membrane installed on top of or underneath the plywood, but rather the torch-down was torched straight to the plywood
(5) The torch-down material is actually cracking because it was over-torched.
(6) Roofing material has almost completely worn away at the scuppers because of the 90 degree angle - this was the source of our leak.

Basically, its a miracle we have only had one small leak in 3 years.

explorerx4

@abacomike, Yes, no E400 sedans in the USA, but now available in Canada.

qbrozen

berri said:

Unfortunately, the lawyer fee (if he can even find one willing to take the case) will suck up a big chunk of any victory money. The legal system is stacked against the little guy in situations like this.

But if you win, they pay the legal fees, right? 

jmonroe

qbrozen said:

berri said:

Unfortunately, the lawyer fee (if he can even find one willing to take the case) will suck up a big chunk of any victory money. The legal system is stacked against the little guy in situations like this.

But if you win, they pay the legal fees, right? 

Not always. That is another type of suit.

See my post above.

jmonroe

abacomike

explorerx4 said:

@abacomike, Yes, no E400 sedans in the USA, but now available in Canada.

Yep! 

andres3

Sometimes you have to pick your battles on principles rather than dollars and cents.

Dollars and sense?

I'd pay a lawyer the price of a traffic citation if they'd guarantee the racketeers would get nothing.

driver100

explorerx4 said:

Well Driver, I have been trying to find an E400 sedan on the Mercedes website(USA/CA) or local dealer(USA).
Couldn't find anything, but did a search inventory with a postal code and a whole bunch showed up.
I guess you are good to go with delivery. Maybe you can take a picture and post it. Just don't wear that jailbird shirt.

Explorer, we've been away all day with friends...went to Myakka Park to see the alligators...saw hundreds.

The 6 cylinder E400 with 329 ho is only offered in Canada this year. It will look like an E300 with the 4 cylinder engine. My guess is they couldn't make enough E400s this year to fill the demand in the US, so it will probably be offered in 2018....and will probably be the exact same car. You can see it if you use the Canadian MB site

E400 Offered in Canada

driver100

abacomike said:

explorerx4 said:

Well Driver, I have been trying to find an E400 sedan on the Mercedes website(USA/CA) or local dealer(USA).
Couldn't find anything, but did a search inventory with a postal code and a whole bunch showed up.
I guess you are good to go with delivery. Maybe you can take a picture and post it. Just don't wear that jailbird shirt.

The E400 only comes in the coupe and convertible.  No E400 sedans are built for US.  They just came out withe the E43, an AMG version in a sedan - nicely equipped - 6 cylinder twin turbo 394 hp - $81,000+ MSRP.  Only a 4 cylinder in the E300 sedan.  

IMHO, Mercedes made a huge mistake eliminating the 6 cylinder version of the E Class for US consumption.

Mike, like I said to explorer, they had trouble making enough of these for the Canadian market which is about 10% of the US market. I think they will start making them now, and they will be available in the US for 2018.

oldfarmer50

jmonroe said:

oldfarmer50 said:

graphicguy said:

I appreciate most everyone's support in this frustrating Caddy situation. I'm going to take a breather from here for a bit. I do enjoy talking cars, deals, house shopping, TSA, even appliances. But, sometimes it just gets too "snarky"!

Will check in further on down the line

Try not to get upset at responses. Sometimes written posts that seem snarky are just clumsy attempts to be clever or funny. (Lord don't I know) we're all pulling for you here. I hope you know that.

That is a good explanation of why I didn't see any snarkism in the post/s that irritated @graphicguy.

Like I said before, if anyone in here should have been snarked at, it is me.

jmonroe

You know I got your back buddy, I'll snark at Ya!

driver100

Yeh, I already snark at JM

oldfarmer50

ab348 said:

qbrozen said:

I fail to see how there can be any doubt or even argument about any of it. It exceeded 30 consecutive days in the shop for one issue. Case closed. No other details even needed, frankly. Show me a lemon law where this is OK.

Ohio lemon law only applies for the first 12 months. This one is outside that. I suspect that will be the key part of whatever argument Cadillac makes (which doesn't have a whole lot else to it near as I can tell).

You know, that's an interesting point. Is a defect that doesn't manifest itself on a timely basis considered a defect.

oldfarmer50

thebean said:

Boys, keep a good thought for me today - it's colonoscopy prep day.  Only allowable intake is stuff like broth, Gatorade, Popsicles, Jello, and water.  Adding to the fun are numerous doses of laxative.    To keep this on topic, you can be sure I will not be venturing out in my Accord any at all today.  

I'd rather drink poison!

oldfarmer50

ab348 said:

@thebean - I know all about obstinate doctors. The one who did my heart surgery still wires the sternum back together. Other doctors use some kind of hi-tech adhesive. In my case the wires broke leading to them stabbing me internally (what fun) as well as the sternum not knitting back together. The only option was another surgery and by the time they got around to deciding
that, it had healed enough that I decided to pass on it. Years earlier I had an endocrinologist who was using me as a guinea pig in some sort of clinical trial about cholesterol levels. He prescribed me some sort of stuff that came in little pouches that I had to mix with orange juice and drink twice a day. It was like you mixed a tablespoon or two of beach sand into the juice, very gritty. Worse yet it seemed to have no effect on my cholesterol. But it certainly had some interesting side effects each morning!

Good luck with your procedure.

Just what I want to hear. Evidently my lifetime of hard living has caught up with me and I'll be seeing the doctor this week to start loading up on the meds.

driver100

oldfarmer50 said:

ab348 said:

qbrozen said:

I fail to see how there can be any doubt or even argument about any of it. It exceeded 30 consecutive days in the shop for one issue. Case closed. No other details even needed, frankly. Show me a lemon law where this is OK.

Ohio lemon law only applies for the first 12 months. This one is outside that. I suspect that will be the key part of whatever argument Cadillac makes (which doesn't have a whole lot else to it near as I can tell).

You know, that's an interesting point. Is a defect that doesn't manifest itself on a timely basis considered a defect.

I believe IIRC, GG may have reported a related problem in the first year. I think a major fault should have a 3 year time limit for reporting......or at least it should be the same as the warranty period. It is ridiculous to put a one year limit for a major fault to appear....a lot of cars can last for 1 year 12k miles and then big problems develop shortly after that. This can be a $30, $40, $50k or more item, it should last with no real problems for 5 or 6 years minimum.

Another thing is the dealer will patch up the problem and the car will run OK for 1 year....then no one cares or will do anything.

oldfarmer50

OK help me understand this. I'm hearing radio ads promoting a company called GetAround which is a peer to peer ride share company.

"GetAround is an online car sharing or peer-to-peer carsharing service that allows drivers to rent cars from private car owners, and owners to rent out their cars for payment.[1] Owners set their rental prices and earn a 60% commission from their rental revenue.[2]"

So some stranger gets to beat on your car like a rental while you're at work? Why would anyone want to do that?

I get Uber, it's like a taxi but this ride share service sounds like lending your car to your no good BIL to abuse.

ab348

Like I always used to say when I was still working, "just because the tech lets you do something, doesn't mean that you should do it."

driver100

oldfarmer50 said:

OK help me understand this. I'm hearing radio ads promoting a company called GetAround which is a peer to peer ride share company.

"GetAround is an online car sharing or peer-to-peer carsharing service that allows drivers to rent cars from private car owners, and owners to rent out their cars for payment.[1] Owners set their rental prices and earn a 60% commission from their rental revenue.[2]"

So some stranger gets to beat on your car like a rental while you're at work? Why would anyone want to do that?

I get Uber, it's like a taxi but this ride share service sounds like lending your car to your no good BIL to abuse.

I don't get it....what would your insurance company think about this?
Cars are $7 an hour.....OK if you need a car for 3 or 4 hours, but that is $168 a day

explorerx4

@oldfarmer50, Post your van on there

suydam

You can rent out your car for days or weeks too with different services. I wouldn't do it but some folks figure if they aren't using theirs, why not?

venture

I know we are in the throes of roofing and Cadillacs, but I have a furniture related question and can't think of a better place to ask.

We had La-Z-Boy sofas in our family room that lasted quite a while. The one I usually sit on and nap on (and occasionally sleep on all night) wore quite a bit after, maybe, 5 or 6 years. I really don't remember how long we had them. The other one was still in pretty good shape.

We replaced them 3 weeks ago with La-Z-Boy again since we liked the style and the previous ones lasted fairly well. We also had to wait about 2 months to get them because we wanted a tough fabric that would wear so they had to be specially made. We told the sales guy that they would be in our family room and what kind of use they would get.

The fabric on one of them has started to become "fuzzy" for lack of better words. I asked at the store where we bought them and they said it is normal and to use a sweater shaver to remove what they referred to as "pilling". My wife shaved them today and it helped, but did not cure the problem.

Anyone else have similar problems or words of wisdom? My wife is fit to be tied and wants to return them. I can't imagine either the store or La-Z-Boy agreeing to that.

I guess, in essence, this is a potential buy back, but I suspect a car buyer has more rights.

suydam

You should be able to return them. That's a ridiculous suggestion. Furniture is not a sweater!

venture

fuzz picture

venture

suydam said:

You should be able to return them. That's a ridiculous suggestion. Furniture is not a sweater!

I agree that it's ridiculous. The red tint in the picture above is not actually on the sofa. I don't know where that came from.

stickguy

you can return to lazy boy. I did not long ago. we got a couch and 2 chairs. Couch and 1 chair are micro leather (micro suede? something that really holds up, and softer than leather). For some reason, I picked out a red fabric to get a different style recliner. Got it into the house, and it looked terrible. So, went in, picked out a matching micro fabric one for me, and they took back the red one. For a modest fee of course (I forget how much. maybe $0 or $100).

In your case, I would argue that it was defective material and they should replace it. But good luck with that.

abacomike

thebean said:

Boys, keep a good thought for me today - it's colonoscopy prep day.  Only allowable intake is stuff like broth, Gatorade, Popsicles, Jello, and water.  Adding to the fun are numerous doses of laxative.    To keep this on topic, you can be sure I will not be venturing out in my Accord any at all today.  

Been there - done that!  

Good luck, bean - you'll need a cork before it's all over! 

fordfool

thebean said:

Boys, keep a good thought for me today - it's colonoscopy prep day.  Only allowable intake is stuff like broth, Gatorade, Popsicles, Jello, and water.  Adding to the fun are numerous doses of laxative.    To keep this on topic, you can be sure I will not be venturing out in my Accord any at all today.  

I had an upper endoscopy (via the mouth) yesterday which is a walk in the park compared with a colonoscopy (which is not via the mouth). Take heart though, after the prep, the rest is easy. Good news, no ulcer.

abacomike

venture said:

I know we are in the throes of roofing and Cadillacs, but I have a furniture related question and can't think of a better place to ask. We had La-Z-Boy sofas in our family room that lasted quite a while. The one I usually sit on and nap on (and occasionally sleep on all night) wore quite a bit after, maybe, 5 or 6 years. I really don't remember how long we had them. The other one was still in pretty good shape. We replaced them 3 weeks ago with La-Z-Boy again since we liked the style and the previous ones lasted fairly well. We also had to wait about 2 months to get them because we wanted a tough fabric that would wear so they had to be specially made. We told the sales guy that they would be in our family room and what kind of use they would get. The fabric on one of them has started to become "fuzzy" for lack of better words. I asked at the store where we bought them and they said it is normal and to use a sweater shaver to remove what they referred to as "pilling". My wife shaved them today and it helped, but did not cure the problem. Anyone else have similar problems or words of wisdom? My wife is fit to be tied and wants to return them. I can't imagine either the store or La-Z-Boy agreeing to that. I guess, in essence, this is a potential buy back, but I suspect a car buyer has more rights.

Send it back!  Should not pill - something is definitely wrong with the fabric.

cdnpinhead

In my world it's called "value engineering." The original concept was that putting "features" into a product that the customer doesn't care about is wasted money, and no one will notice if they're removed. The reality is that most customers won't notice, but some will.

Anyway, in the high-dollar aerospace situation, engineers often spend a fortune making everything "perfect" when almost no one notices and the spec didn't require it in the first place.

Those who can feel the pea through all the mattresses are at the mercy of the mob who can't.

venture

stickguy said:

you can return to lazy boy. I did not long ago. we got a couch and 2 chairs. Couch and 1 chair are micro leather (micro suede? something that really holds up, and softer than leather). For some reason, I picked out a red fabric to get a different style recliner. Got it into the house, and it looked terrible. So, went in, picked out a matching micro fabric one for me, and they took back the red one. For a modest fee of course (I forget how much. maybe $0 or $100).

In your case, I would argue that it was defective material and they should replace it. But good luck with that.

Did you contact La-Z-Boy directly or was it through the store?