Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations

[Deleted User]

All good points, OF. On the plus side there are lot of sensors in the battery and data transfer, so the condition of the battery could be known with a quick computer check. In my concept, a company would own that battery from cradle to grave, and just like leasing a car, if a user damages the battery, like high-centering it on a rock or getting in a collision, then they're responsible for it. That's where insurance would step in.

Normal degradation would be the responsibility of the company. Most Tesla battery packs don't just go bad, though. Tesla batteries now have over 500,000 miles on them while being abused, so this situation should be more rare, and when it does happen, they can often be refurbished because through the replacement of just a small percentage of the many cells. ICE and transmission rebuilders may go away, but there will be a new industry for refurbing battery packs.

stickguy

Probably cheaper and more practical to just add a bunch more SCs instead.

driver100

ab348 said:

tyguy said:

LOL. I love the frunk. When we're transporting hot food, like leftovers or going to a friend's place for a meal, we put it in the frunk so the smell doesn't stay in the cabin afterwards. Works great!

Elon is missing a marketing opportunity here by not installing an electric heating element in the frunk and selling the advantages of having a warming oven in the front.

Great idea.....actually could have a rotating rotisserie in the frunk, put a chicken or a pig in there, even some nice juicy roadkill..............dinner by the time you get home.

driver100

berri said:

Driver - a wall on the Canadian border? SShhh ... don't give 'em any more ideas to blow our tax money

Keep the seniors out of Florida.

imidazol97

suydam said:

Regarding plug-ins, I’d put in a plug for the Volt, but they’re not making them any more. Stupid in my opinion. But I now have another issue and coul use some advice. Started off New Years with a flat tire on the Encore. I think the OEM tires are Contis Pro Contact. Basically a Grand Touring All Season. Any recommendations for a replacement? Tire Rack is recommending something called Vredestein, which I’ve never heard of, Yokohama, which I’ve had on other vehicles in the past and didn’t care for, and BFGoodrich Advantage. Tires are 18”. We rarely drive in snow but do drive dirt roads going hiking with our dog. Looking for a blend of quiet, good handling, and longevity. Thanks for any ideas!

Michelin Premier A/S

The Defender T&H is a little stiffer and the tread is longer lasting. The Premier A/S will ride like a premium tire.

Defender Will be a noticeable increase in road feel from your current Continentals--Continentals are the tire that came on the Cruze. Good tire until the edges wore. Gained a little wheel bearing like rumble. But very good tires compared to the regular tires.

Michelins stay round and are tough. Road service warranty from Michelin came with the last two sets I bought.
If you don't want to price shop locals stores, TyreRack has local shops that will accept drop shipments and will install and balance them for you. Or you can accept delivery and take them where you want to do service.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearchResults.jsp?tireIndex=0&autoMake=Buick&autoYear=2015&autoModel=Encore&autoModClar=&width=215/&ratio=55&diameter=18&sortCode=53452&skipOver=true&minSpeedRating=H&minLoadRating=S

Mr_Shiftright

bwia said:

Speaking of Tesla, tomorrow my son-in-law is going to be driving his Model X from MD to Boston. In the past he has resisted the drive because of range anxiety.

I believe his observed mileage is about 238 miles on a full charge. Given this limitation I would guess the commute will add 2+ hours to the 8-hour normal trip time. Well, we'll leave the light on for him.

No problem if he plans it correctly. The trick with EVs is the same as for small plane pilots---don't "push on regardless".

driver100

<"oldfarmer50
But you have connections with two moguls of the rental industry. Between Sandman and I you have access to major discounts.

You’ll just have to claim kinship with one of us to get it</div>.

I'll tell them I should get a discount because I know oldfarmer and the sandman....that should work!
Will the discount be more or less than I get from Hertz with my AAA card?

bwia

What's up with the Tesla tax credit?

According to the Journal of Accountancy, "The IRS has indicated that Telsa sold more than 200,000 plug-in electrical vehicles in the third quarter of 2018 (IR-2018-252, 12/14/18) As a result of this event, as required by law, the $7,500 tax credit for Tesla plug-ins bought in 2019 will be phased out in stages.

For purchases made after December 31, 2018, the credit is reduced to $3,750, followed by a reduction to $1,875 for Teslas acquired after June 30, 20219. But credits are still available for buying other qualified vehicles that meet the IRS’ standards."

So does that mean Tesla sales will slow or will it begin discounting to maintain sales momentum and stave off the competition.

Mr_Shiftright

tyguy said:

snakeweasel said:

I believe that Tesla has that technology. I have seen videos of it in action and it's rather fast. Real world use has yet to be done.

Tesla did prove that out, but they're not pursuing it. Here's a video of the battery swap happening at a media event:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=HlaQuKk9bFg

What they don't show is how many people it took to make it happen. They proved a concept but there's a ton of work to do, and I think the Model 3 shows where they're going. To change the battery in the Model 3 requires removing quite a few interior pieces to access all the mounting supports and hardware. It's more like a full day job versus a couple of minutes as seen in that video.

I'd love to see a system where we buy a car without batteries, then lease batteries that can be swapped out as needed. The leasing company guarantees a certain charge capability and owns the batteries. If we don't want to lease, then we buy our own. It would definitely be neat and possibly convenient, but the infrastructure needs would be HUGE.

Battery swapping is utterly crazy IMO. It's right up there with the flying car articles in Popular Mechanics.

What's needed is not more charging stations but faster ones and stations capable of doing that at home IMO. The idea is having your own gas station at home. If you have to go somewhere to charge up, you haven't really accomplished any kind of "revolution" in personal transport.

driver100

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

berri said:

Check, a lot of that cold windy weather blows across from the mid west.

Wait a minute Driver, that stuff almost all originates from Canada or the Gulf before it hits the Midwest. The worst is when the two crash into each other.

It is true some of the worst storms are when they crash into each other.
A lot of the really bad snow storms and large amounts of rain started in the Gulf this year, and the moisture got swept up toward N.Y. State.
Cold weather that comes from the North originates in the Arctic, and flows over Canada into the USA, you can't blame that on us....don't shoot the messenger.....we are just the conduit for getting the cold air to you.
You can always build a wall!

I really not that bothered by that weather stuff, just keep your #$%^ geese on your side of the border.

lol.....they are called "Canada Geese" for some unknown reason...they live in the northern USA too.
They were almost extinct in the early 50s, then some American guy saved them:
By the early 20th century, overhunting and loss of habitat in the late 19th century and early 20th century had resulted in a serious decline in the numbers of this bird in its native range. The giant Canada goose subspecies was believed to be extinct in the 1950s until, in 1962, a small flock was discovered wintering in Rochester, Minnesota, by Harold Hanson of the Illinois Natural History Survey.[17] In 1964, the Northern Prairie Wildlife Research Center was built near Jamestown, North Dakota. Its first director, Harvey K. Nelson, talked Forrest Lee into leaving Minnesota to head the center's Canada goose production and restoration program. Forrest soon had 64 pens with 64 breeding pairs of screened, high-quality bird

It is all your fault!
Wikipedia - Canada Goose

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

LOL. I love the frunk. When we're transporting hot food, like leftovers or going to a friend's place for a meal, we put it in the frunk so the smell doesn't stay in the cabin afterwards. Works great!

Elon is missing a marketing opportunity here by not installing an electric heating element in the frunk and selling the advantages of having a warming oven in the front.

Great idea.....actually could have a rotating rotisserie in the frunk, put a chicken or a pig in there, even some nice juicy roadkill..............dinner by the time you get home.

Why just stop there? Have them put in a system that would scoop up that roadkill so you don't even have to stop. Tennessee even has a law allowing people to pick up roadkill and cook it. And yes I have witnessed people picking up roadkill and putting on their car in Tennessee.

[Deleted User]

Mr_Shiftright said:

Battery swapping is utterly crazy IMO. It's right up there with the flying car articles in Popular Mechanics.

What's needed is not more charging stations but faster ones and stations capable of doing that at home IMO. The idea is having your own gas station at home. If you have to go somewhere to charge up, you haven't really accomplished any kind of "revolution" in personal transport.

Hey, look at that, you and Elon Musk agree regarding faster charging stations and swappable batteries.

Trying to get the industry to standardize on a type of battery configuration, along with the infrastructure to support it, are not realistic.

Regarding more charging stations, the California ones are already pretty busy and I think more will be needed as the owner base grows. Not everyone lives in a spot where charging at home is currently practical (apartments, no garage, street parking, etc...). Charging at work could alleviate many of these constraints.

When it comes to fast chargers at home, that's doable today provided a home can support the amperage. Considering my Tesla could power my house for a week, that's a lot of amperage to draw if a short charge time is wanted. It's a new way of thinking about home building. Chargers already exist that can charge at 400+ miles an hour (Supercharger and others), and the Model 3 can handle that rate.

Chargers themselves are very inexpensive. You can buy a Tesla branded one for $500 and can handle up to 100 amps. The challenge is the home wiring and breaker panel. The charger supplied with the car is slower but not a burden for most folks. It'll charge at a rate of about 35 miles an hour. Most people drive less than 35 miles in a day, so that's just an hour of charging a day while you're at home sleeping or doing other things.

[Deleted User]

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

ab348 said:

Great idea.....actually could have a rotating rotisserie in the frunk, put a chicken or a pig in there, even some nice juicy roadkill..............dinner by the time you get home.

Why just stop there? Have them put in a system that would scoop up that roadkill so you don't even have to stop. Tennessee even has a law allowing people to pick up roadkill and cook it. And yes I have witnessed people picking up roadkill and putting on their car in Tennessee.

I think you guys are on to something here. The cabin heating system is right behind the frunk, so you could patch into that for cooking. Time to start a Tesla accessory venture.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't see the infrastructure expanding solely to accommodate cars. I think the future trend will be away from personal transportation, and in fact we may have already reached "peak car".

[Deleted User]

Could be, Mr Shiftright. What do you think replaces it? Probably a combination of solutions, but what forms do you think will be dominant?

stickguy

If I didn’t have a garage to park in, I would never even consider an EV. Even a driveway by my own house doesn’t sound good to me. Street or lit parking, never doing it with that required.

snakeweasel

tyguy said:

Regarding more charging stations, the California ones are already pretty busy and I think more will be needed as the owner base grows.

More would be needed with all those pickup trucks at the charging stations.

https://carbuzz.com/news/tesla-hating-truck-owners-are-at-it-again

stickguy

What idiots. Tow the trucks and see how they like that.

This country. Interesting times.

venture

Speaking of electric vehicles, the JackRabbit came today.

stickguy

That’s a goofy looking thing. Like an old high wheeler. And just a single rear brake? Or do you get motor braking too?

And no pedal assist

[Deleted User]

venture said:

Speaking of electric vehicles, the JackRabbit came today.

Cool! How’s the ride?

oldfarmer50

driver100 said:

<"oldfarmer50
But you have connections with two moguls of the rental industry. Between Sandman and I you have access to major discounts.

You’ll just have to claim kinship with one of us to get it</div>.

I'll tell them I should get a discount because I know oldfarmer and the sandman....that should work!
Will the discount be more or less than I get from Hertz with my AAA card?

With me I can get a secret promo code good for myself and family members. I’m sure Sandy has a similar employee benefit. I understand it’s about 50% off.

Just call me “dad”.

graphicguy

venture said:

Speaking of electric vehicles, the JackRabbit came today.

Very Cool! Congrats!

oldfarmer50

Mr_Shiftright said:

tyguy said:

snakeweasel said:

I believe that Tesla has that technology. I have seen videos of it in action and it's rather fast. Real world use has yet to be done.

Tesla did prove that out, but they're not pursuing it. Here's a video of the battery swap happening at a media event:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=HlaQuKk9bFg

What they don't show is how many people it took to make it happen. They proved a concept but there's a ton of work to do, and I think the Model 3 shows where they're going. To change the battery in the Model 3 requires removing quite a few interior pieces to access all the mounting supports and hardware. It's more like a full day job versus a couple of minutes as seen in that video.

I'd love to see a system where we buy a car without batteries, then lease batteries that can be swapped out as needed. The leasing company guarantees a certain charge capability and owns the batteries. If we don't want to lease, then we buy our own. It would definitely be neat and possibly convenient, but the infrastructure needs would be HUGE.

Battery swapping is utterly crazy IMO. It's right up there with the flying car articles in Popular Mechanics.

What's needed is not more charging stations but faster ones and stations capable of doing that at home IMO. The idea is having your own gas station at home. If you have to go somewhere to charge up, you haven't really accomplished any kind of "revolution" in personal transport.

I understand that in the very early days of ICE most owners did have there own fueling available at home. So in that respect EVs are following the same pattern.

ab348

@venture, what do you do with your feet when riding the Jackrabbit? I don't see pegs or pedals.

oldfarmer50

snakeweasel said:

tyguy said:

Regarding more charging stations, the California ones are already pretty busy and I think more will be needed as the owner base grows.

More would be needed with all those pickup trucks at the charging stations.

https://carbuzz.com/news/tesla-hating-truck-owners-are-at-it-again



You have to remember that those spots were taken from those previously open to everyone. Maybe people are getting fed up with special “privledge” parking spots. No one objected to the best spots going to people with physical disabilities but now Walmart has the best spots reserved for people who order online for store pickup and McDonalds has special spots for people waiting for delivery from the drive thru.

When did the people too lazy to get out of the car deserve special treatment? I wonder if those kinds of rudeness would occur if the charging stations were at the far end of the lot.

oldfarmer50

graphicguy said:

venture said:

Speaking of electric vehicles, the JackRabbit came today.

Very Cool! Congrats!

How does it ride with such a short wheelbase?

[Deleted User]

I think the silver pieces by the front fork are the pegs. Very cool.

ab348

Ah, the ever-popular "special parking spot" discussion. We have lots of places with "Mommy" spots, usually frequented by women with no kids in tow; hybrid car spots, usually empty; a few "Seniors" spots, which I will use if available; the ones you mentioned for online order pickup, and the list goes on.

Retailers with loyalty programs that track your spending in the store are really missing the boat by not providing preferred "VIP Customer" parking badges for primo spots for their very best customers.

henryn

oldfarmer50 said:

snakeweasel said:

tyguy said:

Regarding more charging stations, the California ones are already pretty busy and I think more will be needed as the owner base grows.

More would be needed with all those pickup trucks at the charging stations.

https://carbuzz.com/news/tesla-hating-truck-owners-are-at-it-again

You have to remember that those spots were taken from those previously open to everyone. Maybe people are getting fed up with special “privledge” parking spots. No one objected to the best spots going to people with physical disabilities but now Walmart has the best spots reserved for people who order online for store pickup and McDonalds has special spots for people waiting for delivery from the drive thru.

When did the people too lazy to get out of the car deserve special treatment? I wonder if those kinds of rudeness would occur if the charging stations were at the far end of the lot.

I can't speak to the "online order at WalMart", but the reserved spots at McDonalds are for the convenience of the McDonald employees. When they come outside to deliver your drive through order, they need to be able to find you, and find you quickly, and get back to work.

I had not previously heard of the reserved spots at WalMart for online order pickup. How would you know if they were being used properly? With handicapped parking, you can tell at a glance. Handicapped emblem on the license plate, or a placard hanging from the rear view mirror.

venture

stickguy said:

That’s a goofy looking thing. Like an old high wheeler. And just a single rear brake? Or do you get motor braking too?

And no pedal assist

It is a goofy looking thing. Top speed is 13 mph, unless going down a hill. No pedals.

venture

tyguy said:

venture said:

Speaking of electric vehicles, the JackRabbit came today.

/>

Cool! How’s the ride?

It was a little squirrely the first time. Much better the 2nd time.

venture

ab348 said:

@venture, what do you do with your feet when riding the Jackrabbit? I don't see pegs or pedals.

As Ty noticed, there are pegs on the front axel. I should have put them down for the picture.

[Deleted User]

oldfarmer50 said:

You have to remember that those spots were taken from those previously open to everyone. Maybe people are getting fed up with special “privledge” parking spots. No one objected to the best spots going to people with physical disabilities but now Walmart has the best spots reserved for people who order online for store pickup and McDonalds has special spots for people waiting for delivery from the drive thru.

When did the people too lazy to get out of the car deserve special treatment? I wonder if those kinds of rudeness would occur if the charging stations were at the far end of the lot.

I’m by no means widely experienced with Tesla Supercharger locations, but in my experience so far they’ve been pretty far out of the way. The ones closest to me are in the very back lot of a hotel in an area that never sees other cars. I think it’s up to the property owner where they’re placed.

Seems like “faster” food restaurants, grocery stores, and retail would want them nearby. If you’re going to charge for 30 minutes, why not get some errands out of the way, right?

pensfan83

All the specialty spots don't bother me. I don't even use them when I'm entitled to as I prefer to park where my car isn't dinged or dented by a wayward door or cart.

My wife on the other hand has an innate talent for scoring parking spots close to entrances. It drives her nuts I turn down a row and blow by multiple open spots so I can be alone on an island.

ab348

driver100 said:

ab348 said:

tyguy said:

LOL. I love the frunk. When we're transporting hot food, like leftovers or going to a friend's place for a meal, we put it in the frunk so the smell doesn't stay in the cabin afterwards. Works great!

Elon is missing a marketing opportunity here by not installing an electric heating element in the frunk and selling the advantages of having a warming oven in the front.

Great idea.....actually could have a rotating rotisserie in the frunk, put a chicken or a pig in there, even some nice juicy roadkill..............dinner by the time you get home.

Problem would be that the cooking smoke and fumes would then disqualify it as a zero-emission vehicle.

28firefighter

pensfan83 said:

All the specialty spots don't bother me. I don't even use them when I'm entitled to as I prefer to park where my car isn't dinged or dented by a wayward door or cart.

My wife on the other hand has an innate talent for scoring parking spots close to entrances. It drives her nuts I turn down a row and blow by multiple open spots so I can be alone on an island.

Sounds like driving in the car with my wife and I.

stickguy

same here. I tell her I am just making sure we get our steps in. I have made it an art form for finding spots that are uphill from carts, and protected by an island.

on a positive note, for us "oldsters", at regular stores we always know where to find the car since I always park in the same place. At Shop Rite, I should have a personalized sign in my spot at the top of the lot.

Oh, that is another pet peeve. Supermarkets (or walmart, any place that has a lot of carts) that have lots built on a hill. Should be a law that all cart containing lots are perfectly flat!

Aldi at least cured that problem, since people want their quarters back.

driver100

I am checking on dashcams. One dealer has a model they get...camera plus installation would be $400 to $500.
I found these on Amazon:
Dashcam, Built into Mirror, with Rear View Camera, Built In Installation
I have no idea what model I would need. I like the idea of it being in the mirror, I want it to look built in with no wires showing, easy as possible installation, has to record from the front at least.

One of them has batteries and if your car is banged from the rear it will start recording immediately. It is too new for reviews.

The one I am thinking of is this one....will it do what I want it to do?
ToGuard Mirror Cam

driver100

ab348 said:

driver100 said:

ab348 said:

tyguy said:

LOL. I love the frunk. When we're transporting hot food, like leftovers or going to a friend's place for a meal, we put it in the frunk so the smell doesn't stay in the cabin afterwards. Works great!

Elon is missing a marketing opportunity here by not installing an electric heating element in the frunk and selling the advantages of having a warming oven in the front.

Great idea.....actually could have a rotating rotisserie in the frunk, put a chicken or a pig in there, even some nice juicy roadkill..............dinner by the time you get home.

Problem would be that the cooking smoke and fumes would then disqualify it as a zero-emission vehicle.

I don't think the EPA tests measure emissions from cooking.

dino001

Get this. I hit a pothole yesterday. Hard, both wheels went in, felt like some giant kicked my car from the bottom. TPMS did not go off, the car kept going. I inspected it from the outside and it seems OK. Well...
I went on a highway today morning. Coincidentally, I was driving for an service appointment to change oil. At 65 mph a shimmy shows up - low pitch humming noise, increasing intensity at higher speed. Pretty scary. Somehow got to the dealership. Told the guy what's up, he wrote it up and they checked it - both passenger side wheels bent, before even alignment check can reveal any problems (will it? who knows). So I called my insurance Progressive and filed a claim. Will see what they say and do. The car is at the dealer's, not safe to drive, I'm at least out of my deductible (that's a given), but who knows how much Progressive will agree to pay. The guy was generally optimistic saying they have generally positive history working with them, so hopefully no funny "reasonable rate" business, insurers like to pull sometimes. Will see. Some start of a year...

BTW, the whole "no loaners for routine maintenance" thing seems to have been a misunderstanding, not a policy. Apparently my car was not marked as sold by this dealer, must have slipped through cracks as a European Delivery, that's why. Once I straightened it out, they gave me another 430i, just a coupe. So in fact, I got a BMW loaner first time in years.

driver100

dino001 said:

Get this. I hit a pothole yesterday. Hard, both wheels went in, felt like some giant kicked my car from the bottom. TPMS did not go off, the car kept going. I inspected it from the outside and it seems OK. Well...

Sorry to hear that Dino, how annoying. Potholes are fairly rare in Florida, but, I have seen them - and hit at least one. Maybe if you tell Progressive it was a sink hole, that would help. Good luck with insurance company, that is an unknown. Do they sue the roads people down here....we can do it at home but not easy.

suydam

Tire and wheel problems seem to be the order of the day for this New Year. Hope it doesn’t happen to anyone else!

stickguy

I didn't think insurance covered road hazard damage like that. I have allstate, and when I asked the agent, she said you needed the service plan (their version of roadside/AAA) to have that. But I guess, worth asking anyway!

something to be said for the factory protection plan.

explorerx4

Regarding the electric car battery swap. I don't think I like giving up my 'known' battery for an unknown one or worse my new one for a previously used one.

Winter is here an this is a(minor) cautionary tale.
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/f-150/2018/2018-ford-f-150-lariat-fx4-long-term-update-3-review/

oldfarmer50

tyguy said:

oldfarmer50 said:

You have to remember that those spots were taken from those previously open to everyone. Maybe people are getting fed up with special “privledge” parking spots. No one objected to the best spots going to people with physical disabilities but now Walmart has the best spots reserved for people who order online for store pickup and McDonalds has special spots for people waiting for delivery from the drive thru.

When did the people too lazy to get out of the car deserve special treatment? I wonder if those kinds of rudeness would occur if the charging stations were at the far end of the lot.

I’m by no means widely experienced with Tesla Supercharger locations, but in my experience so far they’ve been pretty far out of the way. The ones closest to me are in the very back lot of a hotel in an area that never sees other cars. I think it’s up to the property owner where they’re placed.

Seems like “faster” food restaurants, grocery stores, and retail would want them nearby. If you’re going to charge for 30 minutes, why not get some errands out of the way, right?

If I’m wrong and those charging stations aren’t put in prime parking spots then I apologize. The truck owners are jerks no matter what.

Personally, I tend to park farther away from the door in order to get exercise and avoid door nicks.

xwesx

oldfarmer50 said:

When did the people too lazy to get out of the car deserve special treatment? I wonder if those kinds of rudeness would occur if the charging stations were at the far end of the lot.

For some (e.g., those that are intentionally being a-hats), yes, they would. For most of us, not at all. In fact, it makes a lot of sense for the chargers to be in a more remote area of the parking lot: 1. Easier access for the EVs, 2. These drivers have more time to enjoy the walk to the business of their choice while the charge occurs, 3. Allows for faster turnover of spaces close to the business, which are always in higher demand.

I think I mentioned before that I saw a Supercharger station in Twin Falls, Idaho, when we passed through there in early October. I was surprised to see it (electric vehicles are still quite rare in Alaska and there is no infrastructure in place for them). That said, it is in an EXCELLENT location. It is about a mile from the freeway (I-84), just as you enter town, right next to the main road (e.g., highly visible), on the "back" side of the Visitor Center parking lot, and adjacent to an observation platform that overlooks the incredible Snake River gorge (as well as a pedestrian path that extends a significant distance along the rim of the gorge). I can't imagine anyone would feel put out by the use of the station or, if driving the EV, the need to stop there for the better part of an hour to charge up!

Take a look at the photos available through this Google Maps link: Twin Falls Visitor Center.

sb55

venture said:

Speaking of electric vehicles, the JackRabbit came today.

Is that an E-bike? Where are the pedals?
(I have a RAD E-bike and love it)

[Deleted User]

Sorry Dino. That stinks. My Audi has been a magnet for pothole damage with three tires needing replacement because of sidewall damage all at different times. Three rims damaged, too. It gets expensive.

henryn

oldfarmer50 said:

If I’m wrong and those charging stations aren’t put in prime parking spots then I apologize. The truck owners are jerks no matter what.

Okay, what did I miss? What are truck owners doing that make them jerks?