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Comments
Exactly which portion of the car is damaged?
what "supposed to do" means is something i never got an answer about.
There is a sensor in front of the radiator and sensors in the passenger compartment. If the front of the car is slowing down rapidly enough to force the switch to contact and the sensor in the passenger compartment is not, then the car is hitting something. Airbag deployed.
Does anyone have a link on the web for infor like this? I'm just working from service manuals I've read and magazine articles.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
50 mph (speed from 2 cars) if it's a head on collision.
My in-law drove a 92 Accord hitting the rail guard at the left front bumper, and the driver airbag deployed. I believe the speed was around 45-50 mph.
FWIW, imidazol97 mentioned about a sensor mounted at the radiator.
The radiator in the 92 Accord did get push back a bit after a crash.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Plus insurance companies have been complaining about unnecesary airbag deployment. Those things are expensive.
nw1997:
Basically, you might be correct. As of this writing, I have not seen any pics of the damage, only what my wife has relayed to me.
She was making a left hand turn through and intersection when hit from a car coming in the opposite direction. Impact was front bumper, passenger side. She was alone, and this might explain no deployment.
Having not seen the damage I can only comment on what the body shop people said to her, and they felt very strongly that "a" bag should have deployed with this contact. Then again, the car could have worked as designed. I guess this is my question. What is the exact design intent? Under what conditions will the bags deploy etc. More importantly, where might I find this information? Mind you, I am not asking you personally, but in general. Of course, if you know where I might find this information out, I would appreciate any help you can provide.
This is a scary thing on the surface. This was more than a simple bumper tap in a parking lot. Combined speed was probably around 50mph.
Seat belt tensioners seemed to have worked as she said she felt somewhat choked after the incident although she did say she hit her tooth on something.
Basically, at this point, I looking for information on just how Honda's system works. After repaired, it will also be sent to Honda for the tranny recall, although with 40K, we've had no trouble whatsoever with the car.
thanks,
john
http://www.hondacars.com/info/news/article.asp?ArticleID=20030508- 61973
http://www.hondacars.com/info/news/article.asp?ArticleID=20020808- 35904
I would suggest after the vehicle is fixed you should consider taking it to the dealership and have it hooked up to their computer just to confirm there are no error codes and that everything is working the way it should as designed. When I was involved in the accident with our RX300, the dealer came to our house, picked up the vehicle on a flat-bed truck, made the repairs at their shop, did an alignment and ran a full system diagnostic, in which I believe I still may have the report.
When I hit someone in my 03 Si going 50+ MPH my airbags did deploy but the engine was pushed back almost to the firewall of the car.
Was there any engine movement in your Accord?
A lot of varables get measured before the sensors tell the bags to deploy.
In August 04, there was a news article in globeandmail.com about the NHTSA investigating the 04 Accords for non-deployment. If the 03 V6 uses the same system, the 03s could have the same problem.
The suggestion to ask American Honda re this issue is a good one.
Here it is.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/recalls04/honda_airbag.html
I still have not seen the damage. I think I'm going to get my wife to take some photos and send them.
Latest is that my insurance co. here in Mass will be sending a rep to look at the damage. Should see the results today or tomorrow.
Once again, this is a tough situation since I am 1000 miles away trying to finish out a job and sell an empty house!
To whitecloud1:
Yes, the body shop did make a comment to my wife. They do all the work for the Honda dealership in that area. But what possible money motive would persuade them to make a comment that the bags should have deployed when they did not. I understand fully well that if they bags blow, it is a very costly replacement, but in this case they did not, so where is their motive in saying we need to talk to Honda to find out why they didn't?
My only defense of them is that they see a lot of damaged vehicles just as the adjusters. I would think that they should have a decent idea as to what types of impact cause the bags to blow. They did not say without a doubt they should have, but simply commented to my wife that with this damage a bag should have deployed and to contact Honda for an ansewer. That is exactly what we plan to do.
Again, all this is simply collecting data. Thanks for your input though.
john
Scroll, scroll, scroll.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
For those that are the least bit interested in my current situation and have followed along, here is the latest update from what is slowly or rapidly becomming a fiasco.
Talked to my wife last night and she had been in contact with Honda in an attempt to get some information and possibly file a report on the non-deployment of the airbags in our Accord.
It was also brought to my attention that the car was not hit from an angle on the passenger front as I first reported, but more head-on.
The adjuster has seen the car, and along with the body shop people feel that the bags should have deployed. Oh well, on to Honda.
Mind you, this is second hand from my wife, so I'll try and get it as best I can, but it was kind of difficult to understand over my wife's yelling at me on the phone describing her interactions, or lack there of with Honda.
First call. Honda rep says that they don't handle such things. Wife: You mean things like air bag failures? Rep: Yes, that is a matter for the repair facility and the adjuster. Wife: I don't think you understand, we are trying to find out if the system worked properly or not. Rep: We can't help you out. We don't deal with those issues. We have no way of knowing..(I kid you not, this is the type of conversation my wife had with this rep)!
After 10 minutes of telling my wife that they could do nothing, my wife then threw the legal thing into the ring and she got a "wait a minute". Rep: I'm not supposed to do this but here is another number. Call that.
Second call: Wife explains the situation to the new rep and wants to file a complaint on the first rep along with trying to find out if the airbags should have deployed. Rep2: There is no way for us to know. Wife: Shouldn't you go look at the car? Rep2: We will not look at the car. The best we will do is contact the bodyshop and the adjuster, then work out a settlement. Wife: Settlement? Who said anything about a settlement?
Rep2: I'll enter a case no. and the case manager will be in contact with you within 24 hours. Wife: At this point, I'm not sure I still want the car since you i.e. Honda cannot seem to find out, or want to find out if your airbag system worked or is working properly in our car. Rep2: The case manager will contact you. Good-bye.
That is the jist of the conversations. All told about 30 minutes on the phone with Honda playing really stupid. This is disturbing to say the least. I would have thought that they would be interested in finding out if the system worked properly or not. Now they will have to prove to me that it did. I have an engineering background of almost 30 years in both electrical and mechanical and I can tell you I want to see some data now. And without seeing the car, or wanting to see it and at the least test it, makes it all the more suspect.
We will see what they mean by settlement. This could get very interesting.
john
It sounds like this accident was more than that. I saw a neighborhood car with its airbags out parked at the curb that had hit another car in front of it and not that hard.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
seen at least two other cars (2001 Civic and 2002 BMW 325Ci) be totalled in accidents, with no bags popping, and no one hurt. i think airbags are reserved for life and limb type crashes. because airbags can kill you just as easily as a collision in certain cases. automakers couldn't afford the lawsuits if airbags went off everytime!
There's no point in debating this. We have no data and we are not experts in this area.
It's like the average Joe or Jane trying to determine, from the comfort of his or her home office, what happened to the Challenger.
What bugs me at this point is Honda's reluctance to even look at the car or supply any data with specifics.
In an earlier reply, some questioned the validity of the body shop, but felt more comfortable with the adjusters findings. Well, in both opinions, they felt the/a bag should have deployed. So now I have two "expert" and I use that term loosely, opinions that the impact was enough to deploy.
For the record, she was hit by an SUV which did not suffer much damage according to my wife. Of course she was pretty upset at the time and might not have paid very close attention to the other vehicle.
As I have stated all along, I don't know if the bags should have deployed or not, and seeing that I am not a Honda safety Engineer, could not tell you from a visual inspection that the bags should or should not have deployed.
I guess I/we will find out when the case worker contacts body shop and the adjuster to get their opinions. But in the Engineering world that I am familiar with, opinions only go so far, and it will take more than a opinion to prove to me that the system worked properly.
If indeed the adjuster and body shop report that again, in their opinion, the bags should have deployed, what leg does Honda have to stand on after that seeing that it will be to late to inspect the car and possibly run some tests.
I guess in the long run, it comes down to their total lack of concern and ownership that concerns me most. If they cannot assure me that the system is intact and working, I will press for them to buy the car back.
I'll keep things posted when I hear something. Right now, as of Thursday afternoon, my wife had not heard from the case manager, and she is now visiting me, so we probably won't hear anything until Monday when she returns.
johng
If the accident was at any angle other than straight ahead, the airbag probably would have propelled her toward the door or between the seats. I'm sure there are sensors that calculate lateral movement and in such a case, airbag deployment could be dangerous.
If she was hit at a 45 degree angle, vector analysis would suggest that the combined impact speed was about 40 mph. But you said that it was more of a head-on impact, so that would up the impact speed. Yet I don't follow how she could have an essentially head-on impact on the right front of the car while turning left.
And, while I tend to think of SUV's as somewhat equivalent to charging rhinoceroses (rhinoceri?), or rampaging armored beer trucks, it seems odd that it showed nothing more than minimal damage from a practically head-on collision at a combined impact of 50 mph.
Is it at all possible that the speeds have been overestimated? What was the speed limit? Did your wife just zip around the corner, trying to make the turn before the SUV got there, without slowing down? Was she accelerating at impact to try to get out of the way of the SUV? Or does she drive a bit more tentatively than that, slow to a crawl to wait for an opening, then accelerate to make the turn? And was she braking at impact? The difference could have a big effect on the impact speed.
The good thing is that your wife was not injured (apart from some bruising -- from the seatbelt?). Since she wasn't, it is probably a good thing that the airbag did not go off, as that would just require greater expense. Some others have suggested that it may well be that the airbags performed exactly as they should have. I have no expertise, but it does sound as though the difference in damage may be due more to the difference in mass of the vehicles, especially if the SUV was hit in a protected area (bumper, not radiator). Did the SUV's airbags pop? What make/model was the SUV? When you know that, you can find out how much it weighed, which should be relevant, together with the angle of impact and the total impact speed (in vector analysis, it's not purely additive).
I'd imagine that there is some requirement that defines the impact speed at which an airbag ought to pop, and that it ought to be something less than, say 120 mph head-on. You may be able to find that out. The extent to which your wife's car was pushed backwards, and the SUV pushed to the left, should translate into a pretty clear idea of the speeds both were travelling at impact.
I don't mean to defend the run-around your wife reports, but it may be that these other factors are more important in figuring out whether there has been a safety failure, than merely looking at your vehicle.
Angle, speed and mass. If it was a 50 mph impact head-on, you don't really need Honda to look at your car. You know the answer, and they do, too, and there will be a "settlement". Personally, I suspect it was less than 50, and less than head-on, but the photos will clarify the second of those, and calmly reconstructing the event with your wife will produce a better picture of the first. With that info you should be able to get a somewhat informed opinion about whether the bags worked just right, or failed miserably. Without it, we're all just guessing.
It also sounds possible that your wife frightened the first Honda person on the phone. People sometimes do freeze if it sounds like you're about to sue the hell out of them. Damn, why did I have to get this call? I don't want to say the wrong thing and have someone point to it later as the basis for a big legal claim. So I'm going to just duck. The second guy did the right thing in passing it on to someone who should know better how to deal with it. Honda itself hasn't refused to look at your car, even though these guys may have. In fact, if they suspect they will have a legal claim to deal with, they should be falling all over themselves to look at it.
This is probably way more technical than these guys ever got trained for. If, as you said, your wife was arguing with you about this, she was probably more forceful with them. She probably exposed them to the limits of what they don't know, and they probably reacted in part out of embarrassment because they didn't know what to do. Not a prooud moment for the first guy, but probably the right reaction for the second.
Sorry this was so long-winded. Too tired to edit it down.
A Chaperone in Your Car, and It's Taking Notes
September 27, 2004
By IVAN BERGER
Most cars built today are equipped with black boxes to record data, but owners would probably never know -- until they have an accident.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/27/automobiles/27CARS.html?ex=1097- 324140&ei=1&en=4e1045352c893430
As far as the "black boxes". I don't think Honda uses them...yet.
Should answer a few questions.
I guess I should clarify if possible. To date, I have not seen any photos. Wife did not bring any with her <sigh>.
As for the accident, initially I thought she was hit at this 45 degree angle while turning. After quizzing my wife a little more, it was not a hit from 45 say on the passenger side front light. It was more headonish. This seems to indicate that she had not fully turned into the oncoming traffic.
As for estimated speed, it is just that. The police did not mention it in their report. It is a pure guess. Braking from approx. 50mph to make a left through an intersection, then being hit as you start the turn by oncoming traffic. She did not stop to turn but was moving while making a turn.
As for the SUV, again, I do not know if the SUV had a huge grill protector or anything like that. I don't know what kind of SUV it was either. But my wife did say that there was not that much damage, compared to the Honda. Now again, relatively speaking, one man's little damage could be another man's much damage.
As you are probably saying, there are too many unknowns, and I would tend to agree. I wasn't there, I haven't seen the photos and all I have to go on is what my wife is telling me from her first hand account as well as that of the Insurance Adjuster and bodyshop people.
Now, I just got off the phone with her. She has been sitting waiting for Honda to show at the bodyshop. Again, after about 10 calls, back and forth, Honda agreed to come out and see if the Air Bag system was working. Don't know what that means, but they will at least put a computer (hopefully) to check it out. At least that is what they have said. At this point, they are a no show and I have given my wife the order to have the bodyshop start the repairs. The Insurance co. says we have only until Oct. 4th to get the car fixed and back on the road. That will be 30 days!
Again though, the case manager attempted to shift all responsibility to test their system to the Insurance Adjuster. My wife actually called the adjuster and spoke with him and he relayed to her that he has never heard of such a claim. He has never tested a cars airbag system and wouldn't even know how to do it. They are only concerned with the collision damage.
Back to Honda. This guy again bugs out saying that they won't test or look at the car. Wife calls the dealership back and speaks to the service manager who happens to know this case worker since he has worked with him before. Also talks to the district manager, whoever that is, and finally gets approval to send someone over to look/test the car. Gee, 3 people from Honda said that they, Honda, had no way to test the system, but now are going to test it. Of course all this again comes about because this case manager is such a total jerk to my wife. Realize that I am using the term jerk loosely here, other 4-letter words are much more appropriate. Wife again threatens them with legal action which seems to be the only thing they can understand. Mind you, all we EVER WANTED was for Honda to test the car and tell us that the system is working and did work correctly in this crash. Why is this such a pain in the butt? Something so simple and yet they are failing to do the least little thing to ensure that their system(s) are/did work correctly.
I don't know where it will go from here. My wife has said to Honda that she will not drive the car unless they check it out. Her point which I believe is valid, is how can I be sure (feel safe) that the system is working properly if not tested?
At this point, we will probably get rid of the car, and dump Honda too. Although we have had trouble free Accords, this is just pure B.S. as far as customer satisfaction goes and to make matters worse it comes on a key safety item. Which BTW, Honda ran a whole two page spread in USA today last week extolling their safety record and safety features. Yes, maybe the system worked as designed, but at this point, we will never know, will we unless we get some test data.
This is not to say that I would/will get any better response from another manufacturer, but it is my money and I cannot see supporting Honda any further if this is the way they are going to handle their customers. A simple request turns into shouting matches marred by legal threats and lack of ownership, not to mention treating my wife in the most horrible fashion.
I'll see if I can't get some photos. I'm very curious to see the damage (2nd hand) and I'd also like to see the Adjusters report.
If I get some photos, I'll post them if possible.
thanks again,
johng
Your wife was unhurt and it was an at-fault(so it seems) accident. What good would it do Honda to test the car. Your wife has no real legal remedy in this case since she wasn't injured in the accident. What is there to remedy? And IF the bags were shown to perform as designed, you(or your lawyer) would be out the money for the testing of the car. If I were Honda I would take the potential loss of a customer over getting into that mess. When you think of how that story above says airbage should work, it's not hard to imagine the number of claims Honda has to sift through from people who have accidents without airbag deployment and want to know "why".
The angle of cutoff is 30 degrees or so according to the NHTSA link. Far below 45.
So if Honda does do a test and they say that the system operated as designed are you going to drop the matter? Or will you continue to argue and doubt the car? If the answer is continue to argue then you might as well get it fixed and sell it or run it into a brick wall to find out if the airbags really do work.
Again, don't be offended but something seems off with this story and I'm just trying to figure out what it is.
File a BBB Auto Line complaint. Safety concerns about the function of the air bags is certainly a legitimate complaint. This will get you in touch with the Honda arbitration guys and area reps........I found them very professional. The area rep offered to send an engineer out to review my main problem.
Then you must have time. A month for BBB to get in touch with Honda. A month to see the area rep. Then maybe another month to get an engineer out. Time is on their side.
Working with these folks was better, but they still could not fix my problems (yeah, I got a mega-rattler).
Good luck....
Unbelievable...
I had a similar accident to the first scenario he gave. I was going 50+ MPH when a Grand Am turning from the opposite direction made a left hand turn in front of me. I did go the next morning and take pictures even though I was so sore I could barely move. I hit her passenger side door and bumper. And yes, her airbags did go off but take a look at the vehicle below.
My car is the white Civic Si and hers is the blue Grand AM.
those Civics are tough little cars though, huh? my 01 hit a car and a telephone pole, no airbags deployed, and i walked away a little frazzled, but no worse for wear.
Seriously, I had no chance to stop as I didn't see her until she was right in front of my car. So I hit her with forward momentum. There was a car going my direction that blocked my view of the oncoming turn lane. She couldn't see around that car so she chanced it and turned. She was cited for failure to yield to oncoming traffic and no proof of insurance.
The Si was a tough little car though. Both doors still opened, there was no interior trim knocked out of place nor any interior intrustion from the impact, no glass shattered, and I walked away without a scratch. I was just VERY sore for a couple of days. The impact spun me around to where I was facing the opposite direction and her car ended up about 10-15 away. The Grand AM took the brunt of the beating. Fortunately her 8 year old daughter was in the back seat and not in the front passenger seat. They both went to the hospital though.
there are now two Edmunds articles that talk about the 2003 Honda brakes being problematic. i didn't know they bashed them in the family sedan comparo too. of course, it still won first place, but i guess it was enough of a problem that Edmunds had to mention it.
Justin's not so crazy anymore....;)