Low End Sedans (under $16k)

backy

Keep in mind the next-gen Accent and Rio will be based on the same platform. Also, I have seen pics of the next-gen Rio 5-door and it is a real looker! If it runs anything like it looks, it will be a big seller. The only next-gen Accent photos I've seen were disguised. Maybe they'll sell a stripped two-door under $10k just to have a loss leader, but even now most Accents and even Rios list for well over $10k.

alpha01

A manual transmission Malibu? In the US, I dont think theres been a manual Malibu for as long as I can remember? Maybe it was a Cavalier?

~alpha

jojomonkeyboy

It must have been a Cavalier. They wouldn't sell a Malibu for 11K would they?

Actually the Chevy that is in the 10K range is the Cavalier - not the Malibu right? I think the Malibu is 6 to 9K more expensive than the Cavalier.

It was in with the Malibus, I must have got mixed up. The Malibu owners I talked to weren't happy with their cars, or their dealers. i never researched the Cavalier, maybe it was a good deal for 11K.

frenchcar

We drove an Aveo (3 rimes), liked them very much; drove a Kia Rio Cinco and were underwhelmed (lack of power) and then a Scion xA and it was ok in some ways but nothing special (xB would make more sense.) We then tried out an ACCENT GL that wasnt too bad and the 100,000 warranty is appealing but we wanted to drive the hard to find GT model.......We did nothing and waited and suddenly they called to say they had an 04 ACCENT GT automatic. We drove it, fell in love and bought it. I always suspected the larger tire and wheel size and the sport suspension would make a big difference and it really does. A firm but controlled ride, quick cornering and it is stable at high speeds and little or no problems in the wind or from semi truck prop wash.. I then put on a set of KUMHO HP 4 ECSTA 716 tires with a 50,000 mile warranty for better traction in all conditions and it is even better now. Very little wind or road noise but the engine is noisy under hard acceleration and hopefully one of you will know of a fix for that. Maybe an underhood insulation pad from a junk yard car of some sort?? The Accent GT is zippy and comes with alloys, fog lights, easy to read white faced guages that light up blue at night, very attractive sport cloth interior and the drivers seat has a lumbar support and 2 knobs to adjust drivers seat height. All Accents now have side impact air bags and that is partly what swayed us over an Aveo and we got the power windows, mirrors and door locks. We then paid $850 extra to get the warranty bumped up to 100,000 miles Bumper to Bumper (not just the drivetrain).. The GT coupe is only a few hundred dollars more than the GL 4 door. Neat car in many respects but if space and ease of entry is your main concern then the Aveo is a good choice. The build quality seems excellent and I have yet to find a defect. I kept one of the original tires and bought a steel wheel and made a full sized spare and got rid of the temporary one. The GT coupe also comes with a rear spoiler.

jojomonkeyboy

For about 4 weeks now, Chevy dealers in Chicago have been advertising 2004 Aveos "special value" models for $6,200

2004 new Rios in Chicago are $8,200 -$8,300 minus a $750.00 rebate.

2004 Accents are advertised $7,100 - $7,500

I'm sure the dealers pile whatever they can on that, but anyway, that's what they're advertised for.

iluvmysephia1

hey, frenchcar, have you seen the special edition Scion xA yet? It just makes the "low-end" thread and really is a pretty sharp looking car. I went to my local dealer and saw one when the dealer was closed. It is bright red with special(very cool looking)racing wheels and thinnish tires. The car looks roomier than you might think it to be. I was only interested in the new Scion tC until I saw this special edition xA. It's only $14,995 or so, if I'm not sadly mistaken. Anyhoo, that is the ONLY type of xA I would buy, with all of the "race" type equipment loaded in straight from the factory, nothing less than exactly.

Otherwise, there's a Black Cherry Pearl 5-speed manual trannied Scion tC with a double-tiered glass roof, Pioneer stereo system, 4-wheel discs/ABS, extra cage reinforced construction, knee-airbagged, rear-seat tiltdowned, great-looking racing wheeled, 2.4L, 160 hp'erd, 0-60 in 7.4 seconded Scion tC waiting for me in some dealers "no-haggle" computer punch-up somewhere in these United States until Kia's 2005 Sportage woos me away from all that. One thing that would sway me towards the Sportage is haggling down to the Scion price. I read in one mag yesterday that the new Sportage will retail for between $20,000 and $26,000. Whaddup? Then they listed the new Hyundai Tucson for only $17,499 and up. Excuse me, Kia's not gonna list their new Sportage for more than big bro's Tucson, no way. They were slanted towards Hyundai in their review of the Sportage, too. I can smell them a mile away, much like Dennis Rodman's smelly socks. Nice to not have to deal with Dennis in the NBA this year and last and last, huh? Yikes. Enjoy Sun Valley and golf somewhere, Dennis. Your playing days have passed. P-A-S-S-E-D!!!! Can you imagine if Dennis was still playing for the Pistons and that recent brawl took place with him in a Piston uniform? Eeeek! Imagine sitting in a large sports stadium, eating your popcorn and balancing your Coke on your knee, looking up and seeing D.Rodman charging at you. Ron Artest would be an easier sight to bear, eh?

jojomonkeyboy

I think Ameican car makers in the late 60's and early 70's underestimated the importance of getting a customer in "The Family" with that first entry-level car.

My uncle drove Ford and Plymouth clunkers most of his life until he bought a Corolla, just for my cousin to drive to school in, he loved it and over time the whole family ended up buying Toyotas. My cousins now purchases Camry sedans and would never consider purchasing anything else.

My sister-in-law bought a Honda Civic when she was in college, she has over 100K problem-free miles on it and she'll never buy anything but a Honda.

I think it's important for a manufacturer to have a high-quality, low-cost entry level vehicle to draw people to the brand. It's not the only way that people come to a brand, but it is an important avenue.

spectraman

I agree with you jojo!

Having a very positive experience with my new 2004.5 Spectra EX, I am more inclined to consider purchasing one of the new 2005 Kia Sportages or even a Sorento for my wife. Having a great dealership experience so far is also making it more likely for me to consider continuing purchasing Kias.

If my experience with the Spectra was one of being saddled with a POS, then I'm gone forever (or at least a long time). I'm sure that will hold true for owners of some of the older 1st generation Sportages and Sephias. They appear to be the main disgruntled types I find online as far as Kia products go. But that just underscores the fact that quality and dealer experience CANNOT be ignored by car companies, even at the low-end level.

-SM

iluvmysephia1

I then buck that trend in "old-world order" Kia owners. I have owned both a Kia Sephia and Kia Sportage and love them both. I am definitely always interested in new Kia products to buy. Especially now the 2005 Kia Sportage, currently vying with the 2005 Scion tC for my full attention!

muffin_man

I think that really the class is $12,500 and below. Because not only is that about where the bottom feeders are sticker priced, but where the next echelon of auto-pricing begins.

It would be a mistake for Chevy to move the Aveo, keep it, perfect it, let it evolve into something more recognizable. Let GMDAT continue to improve and refine it. But keep it on the bottom rung. Make it the best entry level car available.

In addition, have Suzuki bring over the new Swift - please! (3 door hatch only, wrong discussion)

I think the Accent is a pretty good car, but I would agree that the Rio is the worst production car you can buy.

muffin_man

frenchcar -
Congrats on the Accent GT - very cool car. How much did you pay for it?

iluv -
In function, I think the Scion xA and the Aveo are very similar. And while the xA is a nice car (I'm a fan), it's a pretty expensive proposition in comparison to some of the Aveos out there. The difference between my Aveo and an xA is power windows and locks, and $5500.

iluvmysephia1

Suzuki is bringing over the new Reno, have you checked that out yet? It is yet another Daewoo that was being developed when the $%^& hit the fan for them. I believe this one was going to be named Tacuma if Daewoo kept it. I am going to be watching how people like them, not as a possible purchase but out of curiosity.

muffin, yeah, the Scion line is starting to take my mind off of Kia and Hyundai a bit. Especially the beautiful new tC, I love it in the Black Cherry Pearl color. Initial reports on it's reliability are very good. Some people are irritated with a few of it's shortcomings, which seem to include a manual tranny that has the gearshift popping out on it's own in 3rd gear. That only happened to a few people, and knowing Toyota, that problem is probably thrown away by now and fixed. Also, people are complaining of a "popping" sound over bumps coming from the roof(it has a dual glass setup up there which includes a moonroof that slides open). I don't worry about that one, either. Still others don't like how the stereo cover doesn't pop open easy enough(big whoop!!). Yet other don't like how the thin third brake light only lights up a certain chunk of the LED panel back there-they think it looks kinda hokey. None of their concerns concern me very much about the sleek new Scion sports coupe. That car is now my top choice to trade my Sportage in on, but the 2005 Sportage is only in second place by about a few percentage points and that could change quickly upon driving the new Sportsman.

In discussing the xA, I will say this. I saw one of the Special Edition xA's at my closest Scion dealer(25 miles west of me)and that car in bright red is a knockout! It has the 17-inch wheels and thin sport profile tires, and get this, it falls cleanly in this "low-end" category, even with the special appointments. Drive away price before T&L was only $13,895, if memory is serving me correctly(I have been wrong before, of course). Needless to say, I have informally added this car to my "futures" list, although I would only want it if I could score one of these "RS 1.0 xA's"(stands for Release Series 1.0). Have you ever seen a car that you kind of like in it's normal getup but when doctored with a few more niceties it makes the car look simply sporty and great? This 1.0 RS xA is one of those. I'll keep y'all posted what I decide to do. What has me sucked in to the Scion line is the value and price, something that drew me to Kia and Hyundai as well.

backy

IMO the Cavalier edges out the Rio for worst production car sold in the U.S. Thankfully, soon both the Cavalier and the current Rio will be history. Then the question will be, is it possible to buy a really bad new car these days? Think about what $10k can buy for you these days, compared to what a similar amount ($5k?) could buy for you in, say, 1985. Back then, you could get a stripped Hyundai Excel for that money. Now, you can get a car like the Elantra GLS, or Spectra LX, or Forenza S, or a pretty well equipped Aveo for around $10k--all much more refined, reliable, and safer cars than the Excel. Something to be thankful for today.

alpha01

In my opinion, the Forenza doesnt deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the superior Elantra and Spectra. I dont really know why one would choose the Forenza over those two, given their stronger, more fuel efficient engines, wider dealer network, similarly excellent warranty, and standard inflatable side impact protection. But... to each his own.

Also, I've driven the Rio, and I've driven the Cavalier. As bad as the Cav is... its still a much more substantial feeling vehicle than the Rio. The Cavalier has the Ecotec going for it, otherwise, it'd probably be closer. The Rio is tinny and cheap feeling, cumbersome with a crazy rubbery feel to the steering, cramped, and susceptible to crosswinds.

~alpha

backy

I agree the Forenza is not as good a car as the Elantra and Spectra, but that's not the point. The point was that it's a lot of car for around $10k. No, it doesn't have a world-class powertrain, but it has a decent ride; roomy, nicely trimmed and comfortable interior; lots of standard equipment; nice looking outside; and a strong warranty. The '05 Forenza does have standard SABs. If GM saw fit to put a modern engine in it (Ecotec, anyone?) it would be a really nice small car.

The Cavaliers I've driven actually felt less substantial to me than the Rio. The Rio may be small, but it felt tightly screwed together and IMO has a much nicer interior than the Cavalier's, with the trademark Hyundai/Kia eight-way adjustable driver's seat and a modern instrument panel. I thought the Rio handled better than the sloppy Cavalier also. And it's a way lot cheaper than the Cavalier. The Ecotec is a good engine, but it's mated to a disaster of a car. Good riddance to the Cavalier.

iluvmysephia1

for $10,000 yet in mid-MO or even St.Louis. They're usually $12,995 or something similar to that. Either that or I've seen the ad for them being $9995 and subconsciously dismissed them because I felt that they're just "grab your attention" type ads and you really wouldn't get one for that price. Maybe a person really can score one for $10,000. If they could that would truly be a bargain. The automotive world just keeps improving all the time. I really like the Forenza setup overall-I think it's pretty sound. That Italian body design outfit does a great job IMO.

backy

I've seen Forenzas advertised as low as $10,500 in my town, and frequently below $11k.

jojomonkeyboy

I was saying that it would be a mistake to turn the Aveo into an $11,000 auto, since Chevy would then be bumping another car in their line (I said the Malibu, but actually it would be in the Cavilier price range).

Suzuki's line does not make sense to me at all, They've got 3 models with only $900 or $1000.00 price difference between them - the Aerio, Reno and Forenza. I know there are differences between the cars, mainly in sportiness and they look different. But it's kind of splitting hairs, like the difference between an LX, EX, XLE model or something. In the paper I saw the Aerio advertised for 11,500 - the Reno for 12,499 - the Forenza for 13,750

I originally looked at the Aerio because I thought it was Suzuki's low-end sedan comparable to a Rio or Accent. The first thing that struck me was what I would consider to be poor gas mileage in such a low-end sedan - 25 /31 mpg

The Civic gets 29/38 the ECHO gets 33/39 (I own an ECHO and actually get 37 mpg in mixed driving)

The Reno only gets 22/30 ??? There are much bigger cars out there that get better gas mileage than that - like the Accord, or the 2.4L Camry.

The second thing that struck me was the price - kinda high.

It's kind of like the Neon, very mediocre with nothing to justify the price. I know that Toyotas and Hondas are more expensive than the Kias and Hyundais, but they have a reputation of reliability and a good reputation for retaining value - Suzuki doesn't have that.

I just don't see them distinguishing themselves in the market in any one way. I can't see buying a Suzuki Aerio when for a a few hundred bucks more you can get a better car with a proven quality track record, and few a few thousand bucks less you can get cars that are comparable in features and quality - but have better warranties.

Actually you can make a case that the Accent, which is much cheaper than the Aerio, is actually a better car and might even be more reliable (if the J.D. Power study is any indication) The Accent has slightly more legroom, and gets slighlty better gas mileage than the Aerio.

I just don't see Suzuki finding a niche.

backy

I don't think Aerio is positioned as Suzuki's low-end car, in competition with Accent, Rio, and Aveo. At this time, I don't think Suzuki has such a car, although the Forenza can be had for a price competitive with comparabably-equipped Accents, Rios, and Aveos. I see the Aerio as Suzuki's answer to higher-end small cars like the Mazda3, Civic, Corolla/Matrix, and Impreza. All are made in Japan (well, some Civics and Corollas sold here are made in Japan anyway). The Aerio distinguishes itself by its power (155 hp, competitive with the models listed), availability as a sedan or 5-door (not offered by Honda), and availability of AWD (offered only by Subaru and Toyota). It also offers a lot of interior room for this class. The '05 Aerio is much improved, with the weird dash replaced by a more upscale one with traditional gauges. It's a lot more car than the Accent.

The Forenza, OTOH, is I think positioned against the likes of Elantra, Spectra, Focus, and Neon. The new Reno is the a five-door version of the Forenza. The Forenza/Reno distinguishes itself by its broad range of models (sedan, 5-door, and wagon). It offers buyers looking for a small car with lots of features and a good warranty at a low price another alternative. But Hyundai and Kia are entrenched there, so I think Suzuki will have a tough road competing against them, especially with the new Spectra (a superior car to the Forenza) and aggressive discounting by Hyundai.

frenchcar

Backy, you gave an excellent analysis of the Suzuki line up and your correct that the USA line does not actually include a true low end car but in Canada they have the Swift + similar to the Aveo. Our Aerio SX was a good car with few or any problems but strange things happen sometimes and now we drive a new Hyundai Accent GT coupe. Our Suzuki (I still have my old Sidekick) was getting very bothersome in the wind and road noise area and trips were no longer a pleasure. An Accent sedan does seem like a lesser vehicle but the Accent GT with the larger wheels and sport suspension (and I added better tires) drives like a different car and is so much fun that we like it much more than the Aerio. They are the same identical length but the Aerio is much taller, more powerful and easier to get into and heavier. This GT has fog lights, a rear spoiler, fantastic white faced guages that are so easy to read, much better headlights than the Aerio, and the drivers seat has a fold down arm rest, a lumbar support and 2 seat height adjusting knobs . It is quieter in the road, wind and tire noise area and is more stable in high winds or when semi trucks are passing than the Aerio or a GL Accent and the suspension allows much flatter and spirited cornering and it has a better radio and speakers in our estimation. The back seat is cramped (just the two of us so..) no cruise control but neither of us ever liked cruise and the engine is noisy under hard acceleration but the car is zippy. I will get some Dynamat or similar material to line the hood with for noise suppression. The side air bags are an important item, it has excellent fit and finish and long warranties. We are happy and Hyundai has come a long way but I think Suzuki has too. HAVE YOU EVER USED ANY DYNAMAT?? Oh yes, the Sport fabric interior is nicer than most small car interiors.

muffin_man

iluv - The Reno looks fine, but I want an actual Suzuki engineered car. I'll go test drive a Reno when it comes out (not that I'll be in the market for a while, but I want the legitimate Suzuki successor to the Swift GT.

I'm not a fan of the tC. I'm not going to knock it, but it just doesn't interest me. I think the xA and xB are much more interesting offerings. I am a fan of the RS 1.0 too, but the price is actually $15,195.00 for the manual. Which is out of the low end sedan range. It's very distinctive and cool, but I don't think it's a great value. It's basically a nice paint job and wheels.

backy - Sorry, I'm sticking with the Rio. But it is a great time to be buying an entry level car no matter what you get. I still can't believe I snagged that Aveo for $8500.

jojomonkeyboy - A top of the line Aveo at about $13000 is going to bump into the stripped Cobalt, once the Cavalier is gone.

Unforunately, Suzuki has just become a Daewoo dumping ground. I hope that the inreased sales gives Suzuki some future model line flexibility. I would prefer to see Suzuki carve out a niche as a small car manufacturer. Bring over the Swift, the Ignis and the Aerio and let Suzuki do what Suzuki does best.

As far as the Aerio goes, you can't compare it directly with cars like the Civic and Echo, it has 155 horsepower. It's got a nice interior, available AWD, and tall-wagon bodystyle - among other differences. It's different, it's not sompething you buy if your goal is an economy sedan.

jojomonkeyboy

I guess Suzuki is not for me. I look at the Aerio and I see a vehicle that looks like a low-end sedan. I still don't get Suzuki, me personally, if I want performance I would go out and buy a performance car - there are a lot out there right?

If I wanted a small zippy car - maybe a Mazda Miata or a Mini-Cooper (I know that these cars are about twice the price as am Aerio).

I think loading up an Aveo till it reaches the $12,000+ area is probably not a good economic choice - probably be better served going to a different model vehicle.

My ECHO was $11,300 and the only thing my ECHO has is AC. I searched for over 6 months to find my ECHO, I couldn't find a manual, and everywhere I went the ECHOs had options that I didn't really need. Most of the reviews that I read on the ECHO said the options were pretty expensive on it and it wasn't much of a deal as soon as you started adding things. I don't think paying $15,000 for an ECHO is a good value at all.

I hope there will always be an low-end economy sedan in the market. Right now I drive to work, but I may be taking the train in the future. I don't need anti-lock brakes, side airbags, CD player, color-keyed spoilers et all just to drive 2 miles to the train station. I could take a moped to the train station except on rainy days, so I hate having to pay extra for all that stuff.

If I had been 100% sure that I was going to be taking the train to work everyday - I definitely would have purchased a Kia Rio, mainly because of the price but also because with the low miles and relatively easy driving that I would have been doing, it probably would have held up just as good as any car out there.

jojomonkeyboy

Isn't Daewoo owned by GM now?

danf1

GM has a controlling interest in Suzuki as well.

muffin_man

Suzuki as GM is using it right now doesn't make sense to me either. I guess GM is using them as a low-end car competitor to use against Hyundai/Kia/Mitsubishi or something.

The Aerio Sedan does look low-end, but it's not a high performance vehicle, it just is something with more flavor than a Civic or Corolla.

If I wanted a small zippy car - maybe a Mazda Miata or a Mini-Cooper (I know that these cars are about twice the price as am Aerio).

Well, small zippy cars is what Suzuki _should_ be providing. It is their strength. Other than a few small SUVs and the Aerio, the other 2 or 3 Suzuki offering are rebadged Daewoos. That's fine, but they aren't what Suzuki is good at. (they have improved Suzuki sales a LOT, however)

I think loading up an Aveo till it reaches the $12,000+ area is probably not a good economic choice - probably be better served going to a different model vehicle.

I agree. Once you're at $12,000, there are a lot of options out there. The Aveo however, is a great choice for $10k or less. For $8500, I bought a car that is very comparable to a Scion xA, but for $5500 less. By Edmunds estimations, at the price point that I purchased, my depreciation will be almost identical to the Scion. Interesting how the Scions' mileage isn't nearly as high as the Echo.

My ECHO was $11,300 and the only thing my ECHO has is AC. I searched for over 6 months to find my ECHO, I couldn't find a manual, and everywhere I went the ECHOs had options that I didn't really need. Most of the reviews that I read on the ECHO said the options were pretty expensive on it and it wasn't much of a deal as soon as you started adding things. I don't think paying $15,000 for an ECHO is a good value at all.

I like the ECHO, and considered trying to import and ECHO hatch from Canada. But I also don't think a $15,000+ ECHO is a good value. And I can see why the Echo is being phased out after this year.

I hope there will always be an low-end economy sedan in the market. Right now I drive to work, but I may be taking the train in the future. I don't need anti-lock brakes, side airbags, CD player, color-keyed spoilers et all just to drive 2 miles to the train station. I could take a moped to the train station except on rainy days, so I hate having to pay extra for all that stuff.

One way or another, there will always be a low end economy sedan on the market, although I am more partial to other bodystyles. What a manufacturer needs to do is put a very low end car out there, and leave it out there without making it bigger and more expensive. Continual refinement - build a name synonymous with a quality small car. I with Suzuki would do that with their newest Swift.

If I had been 100% sure that I was going to be taking the train to work everyday - I definitely would have purchased a Kia Rio, mainly because of the price but also because with the low miles and relatively easy driving that I would have been doing, it probably would have held up just as good as any car out there.

I don't know if I would do a Rio, because of it's poor safety ratings, but you could certainly do worse than paying $5000 for a new one.

iluvmysephia1

paper being advertised for only $6990 with auto and A/C. It was a 2004 4-door sedan Aveo. If a small car for economy was my first choice for a new car I would look into that deal, indeed. Even if I do prefer the Aveo hatch over the Aveo sedan.

backy

Re Aerio looking low end... have you seen the '05 Aerio? Take a look--tweaked exterior and interior make it look much better than the '04 IMO:

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/suzuki/aerio/100482593/researchla- nding.html?tid=edmunds.n.prices.subnavheader..2.Suzuki*

muffin_man

iluv - 6990? Man are there some good deals out there on this car. Well, I guess that's what they have to do to compete with those basement Kias and Hyundais, unfortunately.

backy - I'm a fan of the new changes, but I'm still not a huge fan of the sedan. It's nice, and I would rather drive one than a Civic sedan - but it's the 5 door that wins me over.

csandste

in five door configurations. Although I haven't seen the 05 Aerio up close I think the improvements interior and exterior are major, although the four door still looks a bit dim bulb and tippy. I did drive an 03 Aerio five door and was unimpressed.

jojomonkeyboy

I don't care a whole lot about a car's safety rating if I'm primarily going to just drive it to the train station and back. It's 2 miles for me, almost all residential area and no truck routes - so I'm not going to be anywhere near tractor-trailers, and the speed limit the whole way is 35mph.

I got T-boned one time by a straight-truck in my Chevy Chevette. It was in a residential area. The driver was going about 35mph and went through a yeild sign. My Chevette didn't hold up so well to that, but I didn't have any major imjuries.

My wife & I have a full sized van that we drive the kids around in, and I almost never drive them in my ECHO. In fact if I know I've got to go on the highway, and I don't have access to the van - I'll borrow my dad's Buick Park Avenue instead of putting the kids in the ECHO.

But if I had a short drive to work, especially a commute that didn't require highway driving - I would have gotten the Rio. Of course it would have to be a short commute, because my left knee starts to hurt after 30 minutes driving a Rio.

I kinda see the Rio as a nifty little campus car too. I wouldn't get it for a son going to college cuz he'd probably try to drive it like a NASCAR racer, (I guess girls could do that too), I think the Rio probably holds up pretty well put-puting around at 40mph, but not doing hard driving. If I had a kid that drove responsibly, it would be a good car to get around campus in. I definately wouldn't want my kids using a Rio to drive long distances from college to home for visits.

muffin_man

Most accidents happen within x miles of your house, blah blah blah. If the Rio was a better car, I still might buy it. But I just can't imagine putting money into a car like that - if I was just going to put around like you described, I would rather buy a used car.

Hey, you could get a lightly used Metro for MUCH less, that gets double the gas mileage. That is what I would do.

billmchale

Did I read that right? Are they just phasing it out of the US market or the US and Canada market? If so I wonder what they will replace it with in Canada. Its a shame, I was hoping that Toyota would eventually see the light and bring the hatchback version of the Echo down here.

derekgdw

billmchale - The Scion xA and xB are two hatchbacks built off the Echo platform aren't they?

The gas mileage is slightly off of the Echo but not too far (1 mpg on the highway and 2 mpg in the city according to Edmunds' write up). I sat in an Echo (didn't have an opportunity to drive one) and thought it wasn't too bad. The Scion xA I actually drove in San Diego when they first came out. Very comfortable seats, handled well very nice little car.

The ONLY thing that I found wanting in that car was a bit more power which surprised me because I drove around heavier cars with similar power outputs and automatic transmissions and never had an issue. Then again I did have it loaded with three passengers (two were fairly light though!) I've heard that after so many miles the xA's engine loosens up and it gets a bit more powerful. (or maybe people just get used to it by that time haha)

billmchale

Yeah I know the xA and xB are derived from the Yaris/Echo platform, I just think the Echo HB (not the sedan) is a nice looking car; and it is a fair bit lighter than either the Scions or the Echo Sedan.

billmchale

It looks like the Echo is simply being replaced by the (next generation?) Yaris and looks like it will include a hatchback this time.

http://www.donlen.com/buildstart_toyota.asp

backy

I know it is a little early, but I will be travelling over the upcoming holidays, so here is my almost-annual ode to the season:

 

Oh! You better watch out,

You better not cry,

You better not pout,

I'm telling you why:

Small car fans are coming to Town [Hall]!

 

They're making their lists,

Checking them twice,

Gonna find out the bottom-line price.

Small car fans are coming to Town [Hall]!

 

They dream cars when they're sleeping,

They talk cars when awake.

They know which cars are bad or good,

And which cars they should forsake!

 

Oh! You better watch out,

You better not cry,

You better not pout,

I'm telling you why:

Small car fans are coming to Town [Hall]!

alpha01

That was awesome! Thank you so much for that catchy ode for small car fans!

 

Happy Holidays to you, backy!

 

~alpha

frenchcar

Cute Road Ode backy. 2 days ago I read where Ford has decided to make or bring in a smaller car then the Focus and it might be based on the European Fiesta. TODAY I SAW ONE IN TUCSON. I dont know if this cute little stubby but tall 4 door Fiesta hatchback is one someone brought back from Europe or if it belonged to Ford Motor Co since I was along side of it in traffic right by a Ford dealer.. Looks sharp in Silver and appears to be practical. Time will tell.

iluvmysephia1

called the Cube I believe. This one looks like direct competition to the Scion xB. It features a back row of seating and the Japanese version includes a third row of seating in the little box. If you haven't seen one yet it looks like it would be a great pizza delivery rig. I happen to like it's styling over the Scion xB but it's definitely just a rectangle on wheels. I think the article mentioned 2006 for it's U.S.entry and I find it hard to believe that it would be priced over $15,000, but we'll just have to see on that one. Nissan's never been afraid to charge too much for their vehicles before, know what I mean?

muffin_man

What do the people in this forum think of the recent IIHS crash tests of the all-new Kia Spectra? Poorest results of any car since 2001.

 

Would this deter you from buying this car?

backy

They are terrible, and yes, they would deter me, since there are good cars at good prices available with much better crash scores.

alpha01

I agree. Its a shame too, b/c the Spectra seems to be a very comprehensive package otherwise, and the competitive bonus rebates make the car that much more attractive.

 

Backy- do you know offhand what is the base rebate on the Spectra right now, and what is the amount of the bonus rebate?

 

~alpha

backy

No, and I'm in the midst of getting out of town so I can't look it up but it should be on kia.com.

iluvmysephia1

here's where it would be nice if manufacturers would communicate with the car-buying public a little bit about what their intentions are regarding a result like that. I'm not in the market for a new Spectra but if I was I'd probably want assurance that something was going to be done to remedy that frontal-crash accident result up front for the driver. Even with those results I don't think they would deter me from getting one if I wanted one. I feel that there's more to the total safety dance than that.

frenchcar

That cute little European Forf Fiesta I saw in traffic yesterday reminded me of the spy shots of the 2006 Hyundai Accent and Kia Rio or the Honda Jazz or Nissan Cube.. In another year there will be all kinds of choices in this size segment. and the Aveo is in there too. In the meantime I am more impressed each day with my 04 Accent GT in many ways. Had to drive it at high speeds in a 50 mph side wind and it barely budged. You could hear the wind and see the trees bending un half and vans and trailers were all over the road but the GT just held steady with very little effort. The stiffer roll bars and better tires make so much difference. Fun zippy economical comfortable car with high quality. Just one little mystery noise that might be in the blower motor or air selector vent doors not closing properly.. and Im glad I have side air bags. Kia must be embarrassed about the Spectre crash tests. There must be a way to correct it but it will take time and money.

iluvmysephia1

may not get called the Micra. This one is rounded, more like the new Beetle and has two doors. It's powered by a 3-cylinder engine I believe. I can envision the Nissan Cube making it here now that Scion has introduced the unusual new xB, but this Micra is really small and probably gets 45 miles per gallon if that floats your boat at all. Gonna be fun to see which ones make it here and which ones don't in the low end department.

 

nedc2

Ford sells, and iirc, builds Fiestas in Mexico, so if you were in Tucson it was most likey someone visiting from Mexico driving the Fiesta.

muffin_man

It's actually almost fascinating how poorly Kia cars perform on the IIHS tests. All quotes and statistics from the IIHS web site.

 

2001-2005 Kia Optima Side Test = POOR (w/SAB!)

2001-2005 Kia Optima Front Test = ACCEPTABLE

 

2004-2005 Kia Spectra Front Test = POOR

"The Kia Spectra's poor performance was a surprise," says Institute chief operating officer Adrian Lund. "Most manufacturers have figured out how to design vehicles to do a good job of protecting people in frontal crashes. Kia lags behind its competitors."

 

(if you were wondering, the last two Sephias/Spectras also received POOR ratings)

 

Kia lucks out, as there is no Kia Rio test on the web site, judging from the NCAP test, it would also undoubtedly be POOR.

 

No idea about the Amanti, but I think it got 4 stars all around on the NCAP tests. Disappointingly poor frontal crash ratings for such a large and heavy car.

 

The Kia Sedona and Sorento got ACCEPTABLE ratings, but the Sportage could only muster a MODERATE. Not a single Kia on the GOOD list, anywhere.

 

Well, fortunately for Kia, it's unlikely most buyers are going to be aware of the IIHS tests, since they aren't as popular as the star-based tests of the NCAP.

 

I've got a new motto for Kia: "We make the most unsafe cars on the road, and they also get poor gas mileage!"

muffin_man

I would really like to drive the Accent GT, it looks great, and sounds like fun.

 

I hope they bring the Micra, I love those little cars.

alpha01

Car and Driver had a favorable 'Short Take' article on the Accent GT either in 04 or 03... if I have time I'll check the issue, it was a good read, and you'd probably find it of interest.

 

With respect to Kia's offset tests... yea, they kind of suck. The issue with the Sonata and Optima's POOR side impact rating, though, is the fact that the structure rated only a Marginal, and the drivers armrest was designed in such a way that it acted like a battering ram to the dummy's torso in the test. I'd bet that we see significantly better results when the new Sonata/Optima debut. And finally, all things being equal, I'd rather have the standard bag than not have one at all, even if the car gets a POOR.

 

~alpha