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~alpha
Actually the Chevy that is in the 10K range is the Cavalier - not the Malibu right? I think the Malibu is 6 to 9K more expensive than the Cavalier.
It was in with the Malibus, I must have got mixed up. The Malibu owners I talked to weren't happy with their cars, or their dealers. i never researched the Cavalier, maybe it was a good deal for 11K.
2004 new Rios in Chicago are $8,200 -$8,300 minus a $750.00 rebate.
2004 Accents are advertised $7,100 - $7,500
I'm sure the dealers pile whatever they can on that, but anyway, that's what they're advertised for.
Otherwise, there's a Black Cherry Pearl 5-speed manual trannied Scion tC with a double-tiered glass roof, Pioneer stereo system, 4-wheel discs/ABS, extra cage reinforced construction, knee-airbagged, rear-seat tiltdowned, great-looking racing wheeled, 2.4L, 160 hp'erd, 0-60 in 7.4 seconded Scion tC waiting for me in some dealers "no-haggle" computer punch-up somewhere in these United States until Kia's 2005 Sportage woos me away from all that. One thing that would sway me towards the Sportage is haggling down to the Scion price. I read in one mag yesterday that the new Sportage will retail for between $20,000 and $26,000. Whaddup? Then they listed the new Hyundai Tucson for only $17,499 and up. Excuse me, Kia's not gonna list their new Sportage for more than big bro's Tucson, no way. They were slanted towards Hyundai in their review of the Sportage, too. I can smell them a mile away, much like Dennis Rodman's smelly socks. Nice to not have to deal with Dennis in the NBA this year and last and last, huh? Yikes. Enjoy Sun Valley and golf somewhere, Dennis. Your playing days have passed. P-A-S-S-E-D!!!! Can you imagine if Dennis was still playing for the Pistons and that recent brawl took place with him in a Piston uniform? Eeeek! Imagine sitting in a large sports stadium, eating your popcorn and balancing your Coke on your knee, looking up and seeing D.Rodman charging at you. Ron Artest would be an easier sight to bear, eh?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
My uncle drove Ford and Plymouth clunkers most of his life until he bought a Corolla, just for my cousin to drive to school in, he loved it and over time the whole family ended up buying Toyotas. My cousins now purchases Camry sedans and would never consider purchasing anything else.
My sister-in-law bought a Honda Civic when she was in college, she has over 100K problem-free miles on it and she'll never buy anything but a Honda.
I think it's important for a manufacturer to have a high-quality, low-cost entry level vehicle to draw people to the brand. It's not the only way that people come to a brand, but it is an important avenue.
Having a very positive experience with my new 2004.5 Spectra EX, I am more inclined to consider purchasing one of the new 2005 Kia Sportages or even a Sorento for my wife. Having a great dealership experience so far is also making it more likely for me to consider continuing purchasing Kias.
If my experience with the Spectra was one of being saddled with a POS, then I'm gone forever (or at least a long time). I'm sure that will hold true for owners of some of the older 1st generation Sportages and Sephias. They appear to be the main disgruntled types I find online as far as Kia products go. But that just underscores the fact that quality and dealer experience CANNOT be ignored by car companies, even at the low-end level.
-SM
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
It would be a mistake for Chevy to move the Aveo, keep it, perfect it, let it evolve into something more recognizable. Let GMDAT continue to improve and refine it. But keep it on the bottom rung. Make it the best entry level car available.
In addition, have Suzuki bring over the new Swift - please! (3 door hatch only, wrong discussion)
I think the Accent is a pretty good car, but I would agree that the Rio is the worst production car you can buy.
Congrats on the Accent GT - very cool car. How much did you pay for it?
iluv -
In function, I think the Scion xA and the Aveo are very similar. And while the xA is a nice car (I'm a fan), it's a pretty expensive proposition in comparison to some of the Aveos out there. The difference between my Aveo and an xA is power windows and locks, and $5500.
muffin, yeah, the Scion line is starting to take my mind off of Kia and Hyundai a bit. Especially the beautiful new tC, I love it in the Black Cherry Pearl color. Initial reports on it's reliability are very good. Some people are irritated with a few of it's shortcomings, which seem to include a manual tranny that has the gearshift popping out on it's own in 3rd gear. That only happened to a few people, and knowing Toyota, that problem is probably thrown away by now and fixed. Also, people are complaining of a "popping" sound over bumps coming from the roof(it has a dual glass setup up there which includes a moonroof that slides open). I don't worry about that one, either. Still others don't like how the stereo cover doesn't pop open easy enough(big whoop!!). Yet other don't like how the thin third brake light only lights up a certain chunk of the LED panel back there-they think it looks kinda hokey. None of their concerns concern me very much about the sleek new Scion sports coupe. That car is now my top choice to trade my Sportage in on, but the 2005 Sportage is only in second place by about a few percentage points and that could change quickly upon driving the new Sportsman.
In discussing the xA, I will say this. I saw one of the Special Edition xA's at my closest Scion dealer(25 miles west of me)and that car in bright red is a knockout! It has the 17-inch wheels and thin sport profile tires, and get this, it falls cleanly in this "low-end" category, even with the special appointments. Drive away price before T&L was only $13,895, if memory is serving me correctly(I have been wrong before, of course). Needless to say, I have informally added this car to my "futures" list, although I would only want it if I could score one of these "RS 1.0 xA's"(stands for Release Series 1.0). Have you ever seen a car that you kind of like in it's normal getup but when doctored with a few more niceties it makes the car look simply sporty and great? This 1.0 RS xA is one of those. I'll keep y'all posted what I decide to do. What has me sucked in to the Scion line is the value and price, something that drew me to Kia and Hyundai as well.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Also, I've driven the Rio, and I've driven the Cavalier. As bad as the Cav is... its still a much more substantial feeling vehicle than the Rio. The Cavalier has the Ecotec going for it, otherwise, it'd probably be closer. The Rio is tinny and cheap feeling, cumbersome with a crazy rubbery feel to the steering, cramped, and susceptible to crosswinds.
~alpha
The Cavaliers I've driven actually felt less substantial to me than the Rio. The Rio may be small, but it felt tightly screwed together and IMO has a much nicer interior than the Cavalier's, with the trademark Hyundai/Kia eight-way adjustable driver's seat and a modern instrument panel. I thought the Rio handled better than the sloppy Cavalier also. And it's a way lot cheaper than the Cavalier. The Ecotec is a good engine, but it's mated to a disaster of a car. Good riddance to the Cavalier.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Suzuki's line does not make sense to me at all, They've got 3 models with only $900 or $1000.00 price difference between them - the Aerio, Reno and Forenza. I know there are differences between the cars, mainly in sportiness and they look different. But it's kind of splitting hairs, like the difference between an LX, EX, XLE model or something. In the paper I saw the Aerio advertised for 11,500 - the Reno for 12,499 - the Forenza for 13,750
I originally looked at the Aerio because I thought it was Suzuki's low-end sedan comparable to a Rio or Accent. The first thing that struck me was what I would consider to be poor gas mileage in such a low-end sedan - 25 /31 mpg
The Civic gets 29/38 the ECHO gets 33/39 (I own an ECHO and actually get 37 mpg in mixed driving)
The Reno only gets 22/30 ??? There are much bigger cars out there that get better gas mileage than that - like the Accord, or the 2.4L Camry.
The second thing that struck me was the price - kinda high.
It's kind of like the Neon, very mediocre with nothing to justify the price. I know that Toyotas and Hondas are more expensive than the Kias and Hyundais, but they have a reputation of reliability and a good reputation for retaining value - Suzuki doesn't have that.
I just don't see them distinguishing themselves in the market in any one way. I can't see buying a Suzuki Aerio when for a a few hundred bucks more you can get a better car with a proven quality track record, and few a few thousand bucks less you can get cars that are comparable in features and quality - but have better warranties.
Actually you can make a case that the Accent, which is much cheaper than the Aerio, is actually a better car and might even be more reliable (if the J.D. Power study is any indication) The Accent has slightly more legroom, and gets slighlty better gas mileage than the Aerio.
I just don't see Suzuki finding a niche.
The Forenza, OTOH, is I think positioned against the likes of Elantra, Spectra, Focus, and Neon. The new Reno is the a five-door version of the Forenza. The Forenza/Reno distinguishes itself by its broad range of models (sedan, 5-door, and wagon). It offers buyers looking for a small car with lots of features and a good warranty at a low price another alternative. But Hyundai and Kia are entrenched there, so I think Suzuki will have a tough road competing against them, especially with the new Spectra (a superior car to the Forenza) and aggressive discounting by Hyundai.
I'm not a fan of the tC. I'm not going to knock it, but it just doesn't interest me. I think the xA and xB are much more interesting offerings. I am a fan of the RS 1.0 too, but the price is actually $15,195.00 for the manual. Which is out of the low end sedan range. It's very distinctive and cool, but I don't think it's a great value. It's basically a nice paint job and wheels.
backy - Sorry, I'm sticking with the Rio. But it is a great time to be buying an entry level car no matter what you get. I still can't believe I snagged that Aveo for $8500.
jojomonkeyboy - A top of the line Aveo at about $13000 is going to bump into the stripped Cobalt, once the Cavalier is gone.
Unforunately, Suzuki has just become a Daewoo dumping ground. I hope that the inreased sales gives Suzuki some future model line flexibility. I would prefer to see Suzuki carve out a niche as a small car manufacturer. Bring over the Swift, the Ignis and the Aerio and let Suzuki do what Suzuki does best.
As far as the Aerio goes, you can't compare it directly with cars like the Civic and Echo, it has 155 horsepower. It's got a nice interior, available AWD, and tall-wagon bodystyle - among other differences. It's different, it's not sompething you buy if your goal is an economy sedan.
If I wanted a small zippy car - maybe a Mazda Miata or a Mini-Cooper (I know that these cars are about twice the price as am Aerio).
I think loading up an Aveo till it reaches the $12,000+ area is probably not a good economic choice - probably be better served going to a different model vehicle.
My ECHO was $11,300 and the only thing my ECHO has is AC. I searched for over 6 months to find my ECHO, I couldn't find a manual, and everywhere I went the ECHOs had options that I didn't really need. Most of the reviews that I read on the ECHO said the options were pretty expensive on it and it wasn't much of a deal as soon as you started adding things. I don't think paying $15,000 for an ECHO is a good value at all.
I hope there will always be an low-end economy sedan in the market. Right now I drive to work, but I may be taking the train in the future. I don't need anti-lock brakes, side airbags, CD player, color-keyed spoilers et all just to drive 2 miles to the train station. I could take a moped to the train station except on rainy days, so I hate having to pay extra for all that stuff.
If I had been 100% sure that I was going to be taking the train to work everyday - I definitely would have purchased a Kia Rio, mainly because of the price but also because with the low miles and relatively easy driving that I would have been doing, it probably would have held up just as good as any car out there.
The Aerio Sedan does look low-end, but it's not a high performance vehicle, it just is something with more flavor than a Civic or Corolla.
If I wanted a small zippy car - maybe a Mazda Miata or a Mini-Cooper (I know that these cars are about twice the price as am Aerio).
Well, small zippy cars is what Suzuki _should_ be providing. It is their strength. Other than a few small SUVs and the Aerio, the other 2 or 3 Suzuki offering are rebadged Daewoos. That's fine, but they aren't what Suzuki is good at. (they have improved Suzuki sales a LOT, however)
I think loading up an Aveo till it reaches the $12,000+ area is probably not a good economic choice - probably be better served going to a different model vehicle.
I agree. Once you're at $12,000, there are a lot of options out there. The Aveo however, is a great choice for $10k or less. For $8500, I bought a car that is very comparable to a Scion xA, but for $5500 less. By Edmunds estimations, at the price point that I purchased, my depreciation will be almost identical to the Scion. Interesting how the Scions' mileage isn't nearly as high as the Echo.
My ECHO was $11,300 and the only thing my ECHO has is AC. I searched for over 6 months to find my ECHO, I couldn't find a manual, and everywhere I went the ECHOs had options that I didn't really need. Most of the reviews that I read on the ECHO said the options were pretty expensive on it and it wasn't much of a deal as soon as you started adding things. I don't think paying $15,000 for an ECHO is a good value at all.
I like the ECHO, and considered trying to import and ECHO hatch from Canada. But I also don't think a $15,000+ ECHO is a good value. And I can see why the Echo is being phased out after this year.
I hope there will always be an low-end economy sedan in the market. Right now I drive to work, but I may be taking the train in the future. I don't need anti-lock brakes, side airbags, CD player, color-keyed spoilers et all just to drive 2 miles to the train station. I could take a moped to the train station except on rainy days, so I hate having to pay extra for all that stuff.
One way or another, there will always be a low end economy sedan on the market, although I am more partial to other bodystyles. What a manufacturer needs to do is put a very low end car out there, and leave it out there without making it bigger and more expensive. Continual refinement - build a name synonymous with a quality small car. I with Suzuki would do that with their newest Swift.
If I had been 100% sure that I was going to be taking the train to work everyday - I definitely would have purchased a Kia Rio, mainly because of the price but also because with the low miles and relatively easy driving that I would have been doing, it probably would have held up just as good as any car out there.
I don't know if I would do a Rio, because of it's poor safety ratings, but you could certainly do worse than paying $5000 for a new one.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/suzuki/aerio/100482593/researchla- nding.html?tid=edmunds.n.prices.subnavheader..2.Suzuki*
backy - I'm a fan of the new changes, but I'm still not a huge fan of the sedan. It's nice, and I would rather drive one than a Civic sedan - but it's the 5 door that wins me over.
I got T-boned one time by a straight-truck in my Chevy Chevette. It was in a residential area. The driver was going about 35mph and went through a yeild sign. My Chevette didn't hold up so well to that, but I didn't have any major imjuries.
My wife & I have a full sized van that we drive the kids around in, and I almost never drive them in my ECHO. In fact if I know I've got to go on the highway, and I don't have access to the van - I'll borrow my dad's Buick Park Avenue instead of putting the kids in the ECHO.
But if I had a short drive to work, especially a commute that didn't require highway driving - I would have gotten the Rio. Of course it would have to be a short commute, because my left knee starts to hurt after 30 minutes driving a Rio.
I kinda see the Rio as a nifty little campus car too. I wouldn't get it for a son going to college cuz he'd probably try to drive it like a NASCAR racer, (I guess girls could do that too), I think the Rio probably holds up pretty well put-puting around at 40mph, but not doing hard driving. If I had a kid that drove responsibly, it would be a good car to get around campus in. I definately wouldn't want my kids using a Rio to drive long distances from college to home for visits.
Hey, you could get a lightly used Metro for MUCH less, that gets double the gas mileage. That is what I would do.
The gas mileage is slightly off of the Echo but not too far (1 mpg on the highway and 2 mpg in the city according to Edmunds' write up). I sat in an Echo (didn't have an opportunity to drive one) and thought it wasn't too bad. The Scion xA I actually drove in San Diego when they first came out. Very comfortable seats, handled well very nice little car.
The ONLY thing that I found wanting in that car was a bit more power which surprised me because I drove around heavier cars with similar power outputs and automatic transmissions and never had an issue. Then again I did have it loaded with three passengers (two were fairly light though!) I've heard that after so many miles the xA's engine loosens up and it gets a bit more powerful. (or maybe people just get used to it by that time haha)
http://www.donlen.com/buildstart_toyota.asp
Oh! You better watch out,
You better not cry,
You better not pout,
I'm telling you why:
Small car fans are coming to Town [Hall]!
They're making their lists,
Checking them twice,
Gonna find out the bottom-line price.
Small car fans are coming to Town [Hall]!
They dream cars when they're sleeping,
They talk cars when awake.
They know which cars are bad or good,
And which cars they should forsake!
Oh! You better watch out,
You better not cry,
You better not pout,
I'm telling you why:
Small car fans are coming to Town [Hall]!
Happy Holidays to you, backy!
~alpha
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Would this deter you from buying this car?
Backy- do you know offhand what is the base rebate on the Spectra right now, and what is the amount of the bonus rebate?
~alpha
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2001-2005 Kia Optima Side Test = POOR (w/SAB!)
2001-2005 Kia Optima Front Test = ACCEPTABLE
2004-2005 Kia Spectra Front Test = POOR
"The Kia Spectra's poor performance was a surprise," says Institute chief operating officer Adrian Lund. "Most manufacturers have figured out how to design vehicles to do a good job of protecting people in frontal crashes. Kia lags behind its competitors."
(if you were wondering, the last two Sephias/Spectras also received POOR ratings)
Kia lucks out, as there is no Kia Rio test on the web site, judging from the NCAP test, it would also undoubtedly be POOR.
No idea about the Amanti, but I think it got 4 stars all around on the NCAP tests. Disappointingly poor frontal crash ratings for such a large and heavy car.
The Kia Sedona and Sorento got ACCEPTABLE ratings, but the Sportage could only muster a MODERATE. Not a single Kia on the GOOD list, anywhere.
Well, fortunately for Kia, it's unlikely most buyers are going to be aware of the IIHS tests, since they aren't as popular as the star-based tests of the NCAP.
I've got a new motto for Kia: "We make the most unsafe cars on the road, and they also get poor gas mileage!"
I hope they bring the Micra, I love those little cars.
With respect to Kia's offset tests... yea, they kind of suck. The issue with the Sonata and Optima's POOR side impact rating, though, is the fact that the structure rated only a Marginal, and the drivers armrest was designed in such a way that it acted like a battering ram to the dummy's torso in the test. I'd bet that we see significantly better results when the new Sonata/Optima debut. And finally, all things being equal, I'd rather have the standard bag than not have one at all, even if the car gets a POOR.
~alpha