Can you just change the oil filter and not the oil?

spokane

Lbthedog, good point about used cannister filters retaining quite a bit of oil. The anti-drain back valve continues to its job after you remove the old filter. Garages, and even industrial plants that change only a few filters, are required to crush old filters to minimize the amount of oil going to landfills. For us at home, there's an easier way. Punch a hole in the rounded end of the sheet metal cannister - and a second hole, for venting, in the side. With warm oil, it will drain all but about 15 cc's by the time you complete the oil change procedure.

The news about GM's 2.2 engine is disappointing. I can't imagine that any car owner will welcome the return of drop-in filters.

andre1969

Well, unless they improve them drastically over the design my '57 DeSoto uses, I think they're going to cause more trouble than they're worth. I've heard that back in the day it was pretty common to just wipe those things off so they looked clean, but not take them apart to change the filter. Now I guess you could do that with a cannister-type filter as well, but considering they come in a variety of colors (orange, blue, black, white, etc), that might be easier to get caught on.

but secondly, if you don't have the little gaskets and junk lined up PERFECTLY...that sucker's gonna leak oil. In fact, last year when I changed the DeSoto's oil, I didn't put everything back together quite right, and ended up with a mess on the garage floor. So I had to take it apart and do it again. How many quickie-lube places are going to do this? The manager at the Firestone place I used to go to informed me that they didn't have the time to memorize or look up the oil weight requirements of every single car...do you think they're gonna check to make sure the thing's not leaking oil?! And my DeSoto at least has a functioning oil pressure gauge, so even if I didn't catch the leak right away, I'd know something was up before too long. How many cars today even have a gauge? Most of 'em just have the idiot light, that usually doesn't come on 'till it's too late!

The drop-in thingie is also messy. I'm sure the quickie-lube mechanics will end up spilling more oil all over the suspension, the floor, and themselves than what would get thrown away with a spin-on type!

Oh yeah, thanks guys, for the thoughts about my oil-change habits with the DeSoto. I didn't think I was doing it any harm with an interval that long, but sometimes it's just good to have the reassurance! When I do drive it, I try to give it a good, fairly long run as well, since short trips are usually the hardest on a car! Guess I could go with RCarboni's 30,000 mile oil change intervals, but at that rate, by the time it's ready for its next change, either apes will be ruling this planet or we'll all live in a happy society where everybody dies at 30!

wtd44

So do you sop up the oil from the cannister after you lift out the dirty element, or are you saying/implying that you drop a new element into the muck? Is there a drain plug to empty the cannister chamber? If not, I wonder if you could drill, thread, and install a drain plug... ?

andre1969

well, the way my DeSoto is set up, you loosen a long bolt at the top of the cannister. When you do this, whatever oil is in there spills out, usually onto the exhaust system and the garage floor, at least until I learned to wrap the exhaust pipe with a rag!

Then the bolt and the cannister lifts up and off, and the filter's just sitting there on the base. There's really no muck or anything to deal with. I'll wipe out the cannister when I take it off, and wipe the area where the gasket seats up, but there's really no muck or anything to deal with.

wtd44

Now isn't it ironic that as time has passed, the disposable filters we all "love" have gotten or have remained danged messy due to angles of installation, having to tip them over to remove them, etc. One might think that "remote" locating them to a convenient, less messy spot would become standard procedure! My Pathfinder requires eleven screws to be removed from a bottom "cover" and then that cover set aside. Then, you use extensions and a socket wrench to reach way up... spill, cuss, and reverse all prior steps, then get up and pour oil-- well, Nissan, there are better places for filters!
I cut a window in the bottom cover that can be removed with 2 screws, and then... etc.
My point? If you can stand up over the fender and service your DeSoto, I suspect you have a better thing going than me.

andre1969

after reading that last post, I promise never to whine about my DeSoto's oil filter ever again! I can actually change the oil without jacking the car up. I'm tall enough and skinny enough that I can fit under the car (barely) and reach the drain plug. As for the filter cannister, it's down on the passenger side, tucked under the Hemi head. It's quite a reach to get to, and will usually result in sore arm/back muscles, along with the prerequisite dumping oil onto the exhaust system, which is something that every V-8 powered Mopar I've ever owned has done!

I was under the impression that most modern cars were pretty easy to get to for oil/filter changes. Guess I'll have to change that presumption! My daily driver, a 2000 Intrepid, is easy to change...just the standard spin-on type. I could almost do it without jacking it up, exept the pan I use to catch the oil won't fit under there!

rcarboni

Looks like Delphi is also producing an on-board oil analyzer:

http://www.sae.org/automag/worldchallenges/01.htm

lbthedog

If I may go off topic for a second, the reasoning for the 2.2 replacing the Quad is simple. It's built worldwide and it's light years ahead in the noise, vibration, harshness and buildabilty departments. You might even say it's almost Japanese, well almost. Really the drop in filter isn't that bad on this motor. You can reach it from above and as long as you pay attention when you reassemble the cover, I can't see many problems. Problem will be some people will do the usual, over tighten things and screw them up, but somebody could probably start a whole new thread about torque.

spokane

It's good to know that the new GM cartridge filter is not a mess. Perhaps Andre and others had flashbacks like mine ... a bucket-shaped housing atop a flathead Ford, Pontiac I-8, Hudson, et.al. that had to be mopped out even after you used the suction pump. Each step - cartridge removal, suction, and mopping - was likely to cause some spillage. And, of course, there were oil lines to and from the housing which could and did break - dumping about a gallon-per-minute of oil onto the exhaust manifold. Sorry, that's another story.

adc100

stock filter that all Toyota (Pure One PL10241) cars and trucks use???

wtd44

Check Pep Girls for a cross reference into AC or Motorcraft,
Autobone for Bosch. {!^\

adc100

Thanks for getting back. I really wanted to stay with Pure one. Nissan switched all their filters to a small version so that it would have the clearance for every application. I went back over a couple model years and found one twice as large that would fit. I was hoping to do the same with Toyota. Their filter is not as small as Nissan's though-just trying to do better.

armtdm

Yea, Amsoil has one (Hastings also) . In my V6 I continue to use the Amsoil same size as OEM but the delaer I work with does have a cross ref to a lerger fitler for this car, about 2 inces loinger, it will fit but I have not used it in this car, I have used the larger ones in my Nissans, Mitsubishis and Isuzus though.

Find a parts store that sells Hasting filters and they will have one. Most run of the mill AutoZones, Advance Auto, Carquest etc. do not stock Hasting filters but they are out there.

spokane

I agree that a larger capacity filter is desirable but be careful that any alternate filter has the proper by-pass valve. One the other hand, if your OEM filter does not have a by-pass valve, the alternate that you choose should also be without a by-pass valve.

armtdm

I have heard of only one filter that does not have a by pass valve, they all do basically, this is dealer hype to use their OEM filter when they state that others do not have the valve. A crock, they all do. Now, some better then others! Filters have many different engine applications so the bypass valve is standard!

spokane

I beg to differ, armtdn. GM's popular 3.8 L V6 is one engine that uses a filter without a by-pass valve. In addition to the OEM filter from AC, the aftermarket filters for this engine, such as Fram PF-3387 and PureOne L-10111, do not have by-pass valves. A quick view into the outlet port of these filters will reveal the absence of any by-pass valve. This engine has a built-in valve that by-passes oil from the pump to the filter outlet passage in the event of high differential pressure across the filter. Accordingly, these filters could not be used on engines that lack the internal by-pass feature.

armtdm

One engine design!

adc100

Nissan calls for a bypass valve and I noticed that the recommended Fram doesn't have one. I've run into that also. Armtdm maybe you are thinking of the anti-drainback valve. Yea ..they all have that.

brorjace

Hastings filters on-line:

http://www.auto-motor-oil.com/

--- Bror Jace

wtd44

To get directly to Hastings, try this site. You'll like...

http://www.hastingsfilters.com

ro22tol

Actually I buy my hasitings filters from a local farm supply store. There normal selling prices are about the same as www.auto-motor-oil.com
But the sometimes have all their hastings filters marked 25% off. Then I buy a case for each car.

Hastings filter are very high quality, might not be as good as Mobil-1, but for 1/3 the cost, I will buy the hastings and change it twice as often.

adc100

Yes that was a good site. Thanks a lot. I wondered what their single/multipass ratings were so I emailed them to inquire. Perhaps you or someone already knows??

I especially liked their cross reference:

http://www.hastingsfilters.com/catalog.html

Al

bluedevils

I'm one sicko who falls into this category. Since getting more hands-on with maintenance of our 2 vehicles about 2 years ago, I still enjoy changing the oil. It's a 30-minute job I actually enjoy doing.

On wife's vehicle (98 Trooper), for a while I did the 3k mile oil & filter change with dino b/c the time spent didn't bother me and for $3 per 1,000 miles I sure to have clean oil in the engine ($9 per change based on $4 filter and Castrol/Valvoline 5W30 at $1/qt on sale). Changed to synthetic blend for a while, found out that it's a waste of money (not enough synth in there to justify price premium vs. dino), finally switched to Mobil1 about a month ago.

My vehicle was bought used and previous owner used Mobil1 so I stuck with that. Changing oil and filter every 5k though I'll probably bump it up to 6k. 5k is a nice round number but there's nothing magical about it, and I'm comfortable that the oil will still be working well at 6k.

Just to show you how much I enjoy changing the oil (yes, this will probably change as the years go by), my car is at 4500 miles on current interval and I can't wait to hit 5 or 6k so I can change it.

I just wanted to throw in that way of seeing things since I haven't heard anybody else who feels that way.

bluedevils

I always figured I was doing right and not being a bad citizen... yes, I was changing my dino oil unnecessarily often (3k miles). However, I always take the used stuff to the auto parts store for recycling.

Yes, I know I could do even better by using less oil (longer intervals). Despite rcarboni's recent strong posts, I don't think I, or others like me, was guilty of any wrongdoing.

armtdm

Kind of look forward to it but with semi extended drains (from 5,000 miles to 12,000 to one at once a year) even with the 5 cars I change the oil on I have free time; boring life I guess. I have also installed, and will have on all eventually, the Fumoto drain valves, makes draining the oil easy and only the filter becomes messy. I let mine drain overnite though, surprising how much more oil drips out sitting overtnight.

Hastings makes the Amsoil filters as you probably know, Amsoil says to their specs but people that have cut them open say there is no difference between them Actually, if you go the the Hastings site then search and go to the Baldwin site you will note that the executives are the same. Baldwin actually purchased Hastings years ago but kept the name for product identification and marketing so it is actually a Baldwin filter you are buying

bluedevils

I'm using Isuzu brand filter for my Trooper, on past advice of Jake the master Isuzu mechanic on ITOG. Was thinking of going with the Pure One - not the one that's listed for use on Trooper, but the one that's 2" longer and has twice the oil capacity. Someone in the Isuzu Owner's Club discussions checked the Purolator web site or something and noted that the other important filter characteristics were the same.

Other things being equal, why is a larger filter better?

bluedevils

I'll never extend the oil's use for enough months/miles to justify a filter-only change. Personally, I feel more comfortable changing 'em both at once. If that makes me a sheep, so be it.

By the way, I know this has been discussed before but I don't understand the basics of engines and I don't remember the answer... if you remove the filter, what's to stop the rest of the oil from draining out from there?

rcarboni

The rest of the oil is in the pan. The filter location is above the pan.

Don't feel condemned for changing the oil at 3K. That's not the point here. The point is that there is no benefit to 3K changes, and hasn't been for many years. The oil companies just forgot to mention that. Change at 3K if it gives you peace of mind, there's nothing wrong with that. I have only ever argued with those that actually claim that there is a proven benefit.

bluedevils

It seems pretty clear that there's no actual, physical, measurable *benefit* to 3k changes. As you said, peace of mind is "benefit" enough for many folks. I guess I haven't noticed people actually arguing that 3k changes has *benefits*. That seems a bit ridiculous.

I'm no longer a 3k change guy, though-- I'm doing synthetic at 5k intervals and we'll see how far out I'm willing to push the interval and still feel comfortable I'm not doing any harm or exposing my vehicles to any risk. I don't see myself ever doing oil analysis, BTW. Even if I wanted to bother, which I don't, my wife would think I was a nut-case.

wtd44

I hereby decree that there IS PROVEN VALUE in 3k oil and filter changes. I make this decree based on the authority I have vested in myself.
I'm glad to finally get that settled. Now, let us move on... :^~

adc100

so I truly understand. I've since started spending more time on cleaning up the car, waxing and polishing more. I have so many coats of Meguiars #26 on I have lost track. I replace parts long before they are due. For instance, Im puting in new Bosh +4's in a '97 Cavalier with 55K. Talk about stupid. Enough of that.

Hastings: tried to cross reference Hastings to get a bigger filter-no luck. Also emailed Hastings to find out the efficiency of their automotive filters. Here's the doublespeak I got back:

"Allan, thanks for the e-mail. As to single and multi-pass ratings, you
need
to advise what filter and/or application. We make over 3000 filters.
Ratings are different for each. Secondly, although one of the major
customer brands pushes the rating you have requested, frankly it is extremely limited and meaningless. The majority of the industry, as
well as, the SAE standards put more importance to a filters performance on
how
efficient the filter is and what the capacity of particulate it filters.
We have this information on many but not all of our product."

So there you have it: SAE standards are "extremely limited and meaningless."

armtdm

I have a Rodeo 3.2L and use Amsoil fitlers. The Amsoil SDF 36 is about two inches longer then the OEM replacement. It's a tight fit but can get it in there, advantage is slightly more oil to cool the engine and more filtering capacity.

I also got saleman sleaze when I spoke with Baldwin last year. They absolutely refused to inform me which brands they make (other then Amsoil) and if the specs are different and which ones he felt were the best. Fearful of lawsuit from competitors they manufacturer for. Maybe!!!!

bluedevils

I doubt I'll ever do the Amsoil filter thing, though.

armtdm

So if you can find a Hastings filter they are the same!

mdecamps

I run Mobil 1 5W30 synthetic in my truck with Mobil 1 or AC Delco Ultraguard filters in my truck and change the oil and filter together every 10K miles. It works for me. I'm going to get an oil analysis this next time just so I have the numbers to prove that it can be done. For me, 10K miles is about every 8 months.

adc100

I would throw on a filter every 5K and forget the oil analysis. 10K is well within reason.

mdecamps

I believe that a good quality filter (w/figerglass media) can go at least 10K between changes. After all, my Volkswagen Jetta TDI recommends 10K between changes. If filters couldn't handle it, they would say to stop at 5K.

bluedevils

You diehard "extended change interval" folks on this board generally seem to change the filter more often than the oil-- seems like it's usually about twice as often. I assume this is because you're not comfortable with running a filter more than 5000-7500 or so miles, even if it's an excellent filter?

adc100

I am a nut as far as engine maintenance is concerned. I am always looking for an extra measure of protection. I would change oil at 5K also, but due to amount of time I can avoid spending under the car I go with about 10K. Just seems like a good idea to throw a clean filter on in between. No real basis of proof though.

armtdm

Not necessarily that I don't think the filter can go 12,500 miles, which is what Amsoil sasy, they also say change at 6 months or 12,500 miles. I never get the mileage but the 6 month interval comes up first. So for me that is anywhere from 5000 - 7,500 miles.

mastermechanic

I change my oil and filter just after I pass the emissions' test and obtain new plates. Why waste the money if I fail?

In the 60's and the 70's, it has always been that way. I see no reason to change now. The manual not only says to change every 35K, but every six months whichever occurs first. I think that this is propanganda put out by the oil companies.

Oh yeah, here's a a wall banger for ya. I use a hammer and a screw driver to break the oil filter lose. Those gadgets on the market don't work.

 http://home.cwru.edu/~gar4/

wtd44

In 1982 I had an '82 Harley Roadster (Sportster) that, like as not, required that I drive the screwdriver through the filter and use it as a T-bar to get the cannister moving. There was no other reasonable way.

brorjace

I can't really comment on Harley Davidsons. My experience with them mirrors my experience with buxom, red-headed nymphomaniacs ... which is woefully inadequate. >;^)

Having trouble getting filter off? You're probably putting it on too tight. Either that or you are not using the right tool to remove them. Try a Lisle ... and accept no substitutes.

http://www.lislecorp.com/tools/catalog/filters/index.htm

As you can see, they have one of almost every flavor!

>:^)

--- Bror Jace

wtd44

The Harley problem was access to the filter. It isn't worth describing, other than saying that the made-in-England proprietary filter was boxed in to the frame so that only light loosening pressure could be applied. The factory-trained mechanic at the shop made me a custom machined remote locater kit. That solved the problem and got me into NON-proprietary filters that were twice as good and half the price.
Send me the red-head's phone number. (:^>

adc100

In particular the #63250 (big), or the #63600 (small) is the ticket. There is none better. The site mentioned above takes a minute to load all of the wrench pictures. The #63600 fits all filters except the big Ford (FL-1??) filter.

alcan

Next time you're in Lisle's site check out the 27450 electronic circuit tester. One of my inventions, knocked the prototype together with a couple of LED's, 560 ohm resistors, and an old test light. They paid 2% royalties for 5 years.

adc100

Now if you could invent an all purpose tool that would instantly repair any malfunction on '92-'94 Corsicas in the comfort of your own driveway-you'd have something. Wait-dynamite has been invented!!!

armtdm

He rear ended a car at a light which totaled the 91 Corsica he was driving. If you use dynamite you have a mess to clean up, this way they tow it away and ins pays the value, if any.

microrepair

It has been a few years since an ex-mechanic friend (became an auto supplies distributor) told me of a study done in NY city with taxi cabs. They tested a variety of oil filters for longevity and found that the better filters (AC Delco, etc) stopped filtering at around 2500 miles. The poorer filters stopped filtering at about 700-1000 miles. This study was done probably 20 years ago so I'm sure that today's filters and brand qualities have changed.

Even though improvements have been made since then, I would feel most uncomfortable going more than about 5-6K miles on any oil filter.

microrepair

I've heard mention on other boards of pumps being used to get the oil out of the crankcase. They apparently were devised for marine use and consist of a tube slipped down the dipstick tube. The pump itself is either a plunger or rotary pump.

Anyone have any knowledge/experience with these devices? Where can they be purchased? I tried a couple of auto parts places near me and they only have small ones that extract about a pint at a time. The ones I've heard of will hold 5-8 quarts.