We were on the verge of arguments that did not belong here. I certainly realize the difficulties of staying "on topic" when the discussion subject is a vehicle that has yet to make an appearance in the real world.
All I really want is for folks to keep it civil with an eye toward the discussion subject, and to be aware that we have a Comparisons board for extensive argu.., er, conversations about what vehicle is better than which (especially since the G35 was not incuded in the comparison conversation that was getting started!) and that we have lots of other discussions focused on specific vehicles that kept being mentioned. Some uncivil posts were indeed removed last night, so some of you might not follow the whole story here.
I think my post last night could/should have been clearer. I apologize, and hope this clarifies the situation, but if anyone has questions, please feel free to drop me an email.
According to a Chicago Infiniti dealer employee who posts on the Infiniti club at yahoo G35 will not be available with a manual transimission ever as Infiniti doesn't plan on offering manual cars at all. This runs contrary to what we've heard elsewhere, but supposedly that's what the dealer has been told by Infiniti.
The first road test of the new 3.5 Altima that I've seen came out in the Nov R&T. 6.3 0-60 is indeed impressive, but marred by excessive torque steer and low .80 skid pad performance, typical of FWD. The G35, with more hp and RWD, should be awesome in comparison. They tested a 5 speed manual: the six-speed G35 should be at least 6 flat. Some of the loaded Altimas are hitting 30k or more, so a stripped G35 would be a bargain at 32k or less.
Maybe I'm misreading the nice R&T write up on the Altima. It is in their story on "Hot Cars for under $25,000." And they say it "held its own at the handling course as well". Pulled .80g and an impressive 63.3 mph in slalom. Just looking in the back section's Road Test Summary, one can see the RWD LSs (V-8 & V-6) pulling .82g and doing 59.1 or 59.8 mph slalom. If handling can be measured in g's and slalom, then Altima 3.5 SE seems to more than hold its own. As one writer put it, he loved the "well controlled suspension" but didn't like the "torque steer". But doesn't the torque steer really only happen while under very hard acceleration from a standstill? If it takes a little torque steer to produce a 6.3 second 0-60 mph time, then count me in for torque steer! Would you rather it go 7.3 seconds and have no torque steer? No wonder R&T had such a blast recommending it!
I think the Altima 3.5 SE is a preview of what should be a killer G35! The G35's RWD platform should eliminate any torque steer and the near 50/50 balance should improve handling. Sounds like a win-win. A really good $25,000 Altima and a great $30,000 G35. (But don't load up the options on the Altima. The $29,400 loaded one I looked at today didn't seem to be a very good value compared to a lot of other cars.)
The loaded Altima is not that great a value. I'd rather have the stripped G35. And the LS in many tests have pulled .84. It depends on the test course and if the LS is Sport or regular. The LS Manual has had limited testing. You can bet that the LS and the IS300 will increse hp now that Nissan is uping the ante. Torque steer can be felt in a straight line if it pulls one way upon acceleration. Much more common is "fighting" your choice of direction upon acceleration. Keep in mind that upon applying power, those driven front wheels act like gyroscopes. It's hard to power and steer at the same time. It has to do with slip angle of the tires. I imagine the Altima has traction control. An LSD differential would help also. It takes so much to tame a high hp FWD car you wonder why they make that compromise. It's all cost in the end, and has been since the 70's. Believe me, it's not for the ultimate in engineering. FWD costs more in the future, in added repair costs and of course, in your mind when you finally realize that you are driving an appliance. I'm waiting for the G35.
Am looking at the Altima, Maxima, and I-35 brochures I picked up yesterday. Can't see anything in Altima brochure on LSD. Does mention a traction control system for the 3.5 SE automatic, but NOT for manual transmission 3.5 SE.
I-35 has standard traction control with optional Vehicle Dynamic Control in the Sport Pkg. No clear mention of LSD. Does come with standard EBD with Brake Assist.
Maxima SE DOES list "helical limited-slip differential" being available ONLY in the manual transmission model, "estimated availability: December 2001". Can get optional traction control and EBD with brake assist.
The November 2001 issue of Motor Trend tests the I-35 (4-speed) automatic Sport Pkg. 0-60 mph in 7.0 seconds. You'll be interested in knowing that they noticed the increased horsepower immediately: "as the wheel tried to torque-steer itself right out of our hands". They didn't care too much for the much more aggressive Sport Pkg suspension set up. Their I-35 went 62.4 mph in their 600-ft slalom; no g-figure reported.
The difference is that in a RWD car, the front wheels are not power driven. They are passive. The front wheels in a FWD car always want to straighten out under power. Torque steer doesn't occur unless you accelerate and steer at the same time. And if you steer and put too much power on the front wheels, torque steer becomes terminal understeer, as a slipping front tire cannot steer very well at all. In a rear wheel drive car with poor F/R balance, poor polar moment of inertia and otherwise poor dynamics, you might get something called "plowing", but that is much harder to achieve. That is when the power of the car overcomes the ability of the front tires to keep grip (slip angle). Most modern RWD cars do not have that problem. FWD has its advantages in lower cost manufacturing. RWD was buried in the 1980's as emissions and CAFE became the holy grail. "Packaging efficiency" was the new buzz term. Great for small cars with small engines. RWD continued with "luxury cars", except for GM who carried the concept to the STS, etc. But now we are seeing the re-emergence of RWD. Even Cadillac is coming around. Why? They lost sales to BMW and MB because lots of oldsters never took to FWD and the yuppies read more than just PC and Money magazines. Also, lots of people got tired of the FWD traits: torque steer, torn rubber boots, half shaft and bearing replacement, diminished turning radius, uneven/accelerated tire and brake pad wear, crowded engine compartments, more expensive labor for clutch and transmission repair, premature engine mount failure, failure of exhaust joints because of transverse engine rocking, nightmare water pump replacements, smashing of header pipes because they have to go under the engine, strange relocation of rack and pinion (some are under the windshield!),more difficult spark plug replacement in rear bank, and necessity for electric cooling fans because engine is transverse. Almost forgot: rubbery shifting linkages because tranny is not under console. Keep in mind that fleets like taxis and police rarely use FWD because of servicibility problems. If you lease your car and turn it in every 3 years, FWD is fine. But if you want to keep it ten years, ouch! The savings you scored when you bought it (there may not be any) will dissapear over time (probably about the five year mark). If FWD was optimum, trucks, SUVs and race cars would use it. It's mainly for appliances and not for performance. So when a RWD can be obtained for little more than a FWD, go for RWD. Yes, that Maxima,I30, looks good. Great performance for the $$$$. But in five years, I would probably tear it up. The RWD model would have fewer problems that would cost less to fix. And my mechanic would like me (although he wouldn't see me as often or be able to charge me as much labor). I'd wait for the G35.
I still say that all wheels, when they are spinning, are acting as gyroscopes and want to straighten out. And that has nothing to do with torque steer.
Not sure FWD or RWD or AWD makes that much difference to about 90 plus percent of sedan buyers, including good all around sport sedans. Car mags have raved about FWDers like VW Golf GTi and other "hot rods" for years. And they still do. Seems like new Acura Integra replacment is being deemed worthy. So is Acura 3.2TL Type S. And the '90-'94 Maxima was quite well respected. They also rave about lots of great RWD sport sedans.
And I think it makes even LESS difference to people who lease. Thinking latest figures showing very large percentages in regard to some manufacturers leasing their cars. Sometimes way more than are bought outright. If I only have the car for 24, 36, or 42 months, doubt I'll worry too much about what happens after 5 years. Read something within past year or two showing the average new car buyer only keeps the car for about 37 months.
As for the 10 percent where it does make a difference, guessing it may make more difference as regards their past experience. BMW or MB people keep coming back. So do Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti people. They each like what their marque has to offer.
I think Nissan might be on to something if it ensures a "hot" Altima 3.5 SE manual and a "hot" Maxima/I-35, which all might be FWD, plus a "hot" RWD G35. That way they cover both type buyers (but leave out AWD people) and a huge price range. Too bad they don't make a "hot" Q45 to compete with BMW M or MB AMG. Seems like Q competes mainly against LS430, RL, and Seville.
because their front wheels are not the ones that put the power to the pavement. Nothing to do with the gyroscope effect that all spinning wheels have.
Torque steer has more to do with slight variation of forces that front-left wheel applies to the ground versus the front-right wheel. Torque steer in the FWD cars is most noticeable with the cars that have unequal drive shafts, for example. Also torque steer is most noticeable in the lower than perfect traction situations, when one front wheel grips better than the other. It could be wet or snow or ice. But it could also be a result of flooring the gas pedal or going through a tight corner at high speed. One front wheel is bound to slightly lose traction sooner than the other in all these situation. Once a wheel loses traction, you have unequal resistance forces acting on the front wheels and that gets transmitted through the steering and you feel it with your hands. Unequal resistance forces on two sides of the vehicle cause it to stray off the path that you want it to take.
Is torque steer really that bad? Power is good. Useable power is best. But controllable power in real world is enough, in most cases, depending upon the cost. Can there be "too much" power? I'd rather have too much than not enough. If that means a bit of initial torque steer, oh well.
I always thought that at its most basic level it was usually "too much" power going to both the drive and steering wheels simultaneously. Yes, unequal half-shafts and other design factors do influence the equation, but no matter how well those are if I dial in "too much" raw power I can create torque steer. But I never hear anyone complain about torque steer in a Geo Metro or Toyota Tercel. Give those cars 200 hp and you'd get torque steer.
I'd rather have a 240 hp torque-steering Altima 3.5 SE 5-speed than lots of mediocre RWD drivetrain combinations. Don't remember anyone praising the acceleration, slalom speeds, top speeds, etc. of nice cars like 318ti, 318i, 530i automatic, LS V-6, Catera, etc. Guessing many of these owners might appreciate some more useable power!
Isn't there a RWD equivalent, if not as pronounced? Can't I overpower the rear drive wheels and fishtail side-to-side? Of course, if I could, I would NOT complain. I'd either learn to control it or let off the gas slightly or use a higher gear.
Even the Maxima with its super-duper Torsen limited slip differential has ungodly torque steer. With my RWD cars, when my rear wheels slip, I certainly don't feel it in my steering wheel. In the early days of FWD, I remember reading that engineers thought 200 hp was tops for a FWD car. I've driven unequal and equal length half-shaft cars, and the torque steer is still there. With my Dad's Buick Park Avenue Ultra, when the supercharger kicks in on even a slight turn, youd'd better have a heavy hand and hold on! The front end also lifts on acceleration which to me is disconcerting.
front end lifts on any car, it doesn't have to be FWD
I used to drive a Pontiac Grand Prix GTP and Pontiac engineers managed to hide most of the torque steer very well despite its 240HP and 280 lbs*ft of torque. My 300M with its 350HP does not exhibit much of it either.
As for RWD, some people say that they can steer with their rear wheels, aka fishtailing. But it is quite different from torque steer since it is not tugging on the steering system.
Like Stan, I own a Lincoln LS with a manual transmission. I enjoy how it handles around corners, and would put the LS's real world performance on crooked roads "way up there" when I compare it to my past vehicles -- 240Z, Miata, extensively modified 510. All these have rear-wheel drive and manual transmissions.
The failings of the LS fall into two categories (Ruski will love this): 1) Fit and finish issues, and 2) Limited/nonexistant future improvements for the manual.
The car I've driven farther than any other is a Datsun 240Z. I drove it off the lot in 1993 with fewer than 10 miles on the clock and mourned over it eleven years later when it had 224K miles. Nissan builds stout vehicles.
I'm older now, and have more money. I bought an LS because it was a very attractive sedan with real performance (that means a manual & 50/50 weight distribution) in early 2000. During the purchasing decision, I looked at BMW's (5 series), the Lexus GS and the Infiniti 30, among others. My desired attributes were rear wheel drive with a manual. The BMW was more expensive and came with a "yuppie scum" image that I detest. Can't explain why I didn't consider Audi, but bad publicity lasts a long time.
All that said, I've driven my LS for 20K+ miles, rented a couple of Audi's on European business trips, and continued to follow a number of the Edmunds boards. Here's what I think I've learned: 1) The European luxury sedan crowd expects to pay "breathtakingly high" maintenance costs once the warranty (or lease) expires; 2) They consider good reliability a negative -- you don't want to own an irrelevant "appliance" -- ALL the good cars cost a lot to maintain; 3) Manual transmissions -- we don't need no stinkin' manuals.
The G35 could be a really powerful competitor. The sport cachet of a rear-wheel-drive luxury car with a manual transmission is not to be denied. Only a few in the world do it, and fewer yet try to do it in the U.S. Now let's add 250+ hp and a transmission/rear end combo that actually yields good acceleration & decent fuel mileage, with asian reliability and attention to detail.
Not exactly what most of us were hoping for, but at least some news. I got a brief message in the mail from Infiniti dated 10-16-2001. Here is the content verbatim:
"Thank you very much for your early interest in the all-new 2003 Infiniti G35, a luxury sport sedan with a stunning level of performance and innovation, combined with a progressive new approach to exterior design and the luxury driving experience.
With a 255-horsepower DOHC V6 engine positioned behind the front axle for optimal weight distribution, a new 5-speed automatic transmission with manual shift mode, rear-wheel drive and a new 4-wheel independent multi-link suspension, the all-new 2003 G35 represents the very best of infiniti's forward thinking.
The 2003 G35 arrives in spring 2002. But you'll find frequent updates at infiniti.com. Again, thank you for your inquiry. You can expect more information on the G35 in the near future."
So much for 280 or 300 HP and no mention of the 6-speed manual. Why is Japan afraid to sell us real sports sedan?
it costs a fortune to get any "model type" through the hoops required by the EPA and God knows what other government entities to make it "approved for sale in the U.S."
Generally discourages the sale of niche market vehicles, from what I've been able to gather. Also tends to make it pretty difficult to upgrade or modify existing vehicles that in the past could be sold with any number of transmissions, rear ends and engines.
Maybe there will be an optional Sport Pkg that has additional power? Wouldn't surprise me. Even if it takes a year or so to appear. And even if it "only" has 255 HP, I don't read anyone complaining about the useable power in the Altima 3.5 SE, Maxima SE, or I-35! Car mags have all raved about the power of the Nissan 3.5L V-6.
well it is not 300 but hey, the new Altima is very good with 240HP. And G35 seems to be the same size as the Altima, so I think it will be quite nice with 255HP.
Plus I think they were afraid to make it more powerful than I35.
Well, the Altima has been clocked at 5.9 0-60 by Motorweek, and if the G35 has similar weight and gearing, it should do even better thanks to its RWD layout. That's faster than a 330i. But I also wouldn't be surprised to see a "G35-R" or something similar a year or two down the line.
I also got the mailed update from Mark C. Mcnabb, VP and GM of the Infiniti division. Again, no mention of the Manual version. I think they may pull an "IS300" and issue a five speed manual way after introduction. Only 8% of sales in the U.S. are manual cars, and most of those are econobox 4 bangers with FWD. Totally different than Europe, where 88% of sales are "standard" transmissions. I just don't hold out much hope for Manual cars. The market here is for appliances, and drivers here are really lazy and not enthusiast types. RWD is reserved for luxury vehicles for the most part, as RWD costs more to begin with. In the mean time, I will drive my Lincoln LS manual, knowing that at the $32,800 I paid, no better value in a large Manual, RWD 4 door really exists. On paper, though, the G35 will someday be the one to beat, but that won't happen until the six-speed from the 350Z is available, and when is that going to happen?
...back in the 70's and early 80's I remember everybody scrambling to convert their RWD sedans - both econoboxes and above - to FWD (for the added traction). As I recall, when I bought my first new car in 1978 - a Datsun B210 GX - the only front wheel drive car that Datsun even made was a "F210" or something like that. It was considered a specialty car and butt ugly. Now it seems that the return to the RWD layout for handling performance has taken over. Just an interesting observation from an old-timer.
certainly isn't helping. Someone on IS300 board here mentioned IS300 sales fell about 1,000 units comparing Sept 2000 to Sept 2001. Went to AIC AutoSite sales tracking site. Luxury sales down. The segement leading DeVille and Acura TL both declined by a significant number. Noticed that Lincoln LS sales from last year plummeted from 4,539 to only 2,112, about a 54 percent decline. Guessing Infiniti is looking at the sales market. Might be hard to justify introducing G35 with 6-speed manual if they assume sales are down and a very small percentage will be sold with manual. They wouldn't have to stock parts for it, train mechanics, etc. Nissan/Infiniti should take the risk, but their bean counters and marketers may be taking a cautious approach.
I'm only 53. Yes, this RWD vs FWD thing is interesting. I think the auto manufacturers went bananas in the early 1980s. Stuck with emissions, weight, packaging, CAFE challenges, most all the makers dropped RWD for FWD. Except the luxury car companies. Toyota and GM are total FWD car makers, except that Caddy is bringing back RWD to I think two models (not counting the Opel). I bought a new Cressida five speed Manual in 1983 and had to keep it for 17 years. Only BMW kept making RWD, 4 door Manuals. What a drought. I waited and waited. I kept thinking "How can the American people keep buying these appliances?" Then divine providence spoke to me and someone did a hit and run on the rear corner of my beloved Cressida in early 2000. I leased a 2000 Manual Lincoln LS. For $32k, it was a lot cheaper than a 5 series, with better performance than the base 5er. I'm happy so far, and this morning I blew off a 530i. I've added a Borla and that really helped. In today's cars, it's all pumping losses that have to be addressed. I live in San Diego, and I need FWD like a fish needs a bicycle. I'm just hoping the G35 will be out with a six-speed by the time my lease is up in June of 2003. I don't think the LS Manual will significantly improve in performance by that time.
..to justify a 6-speed manual G35. I'm guessing that old timers like me and stanny1 aren't the least bit interested in the boy-toy looks of the IS 300. I think the IS market is full of less expensive similar alternatives such as Acura's RSX. I am prepared to dish out $40k to $50k+ for a 5-series as my next car, which will be a RWD manual with a sport package. However, before I do I would very much apprecaite a serious alternative option from Infinity to consider.
Note that even though manuals are a relatively small percentage of sales in the US, there are a few cars - such as the 540i 6-speed - that have better resale value than their automatic brethren.
I think BMW was wise to stay the course through the FWD disease of the 1980s on. The RWD renaissance is partly because the consumer is more educated and many have suffered through the increased expense of maintaining a FWD vehicle. I know a lot of the old farts who buy Caddys never took to their FWD and Lincoln was a beneficiary of that. My dream car is an M5, which is the most awesome 4 door on the planet. I think Ford and Cadillac could build a facsimile with the parts on the shelf but they complain the market is too small. I disagree. The price has always been too high. I could take the Intech or Northstar V-8, the Getrag six-speed, and the Cobra IRS rear end and put it under almost any 4 door Ford or GM body and this combo would yield superb performance at a very good price. Unfortunately, it's too late for Chrysler. They have no RWD platforms left. But the point is that the hardware is on the shelves but they lack the will. Let's hope Mark McNabb at Infinity does not lack the will.
Wife and I went to local Lexus dealer and looked at the IS300. She liked it better than I did, which was a suprise, since she is normally more into luxury. Just seemed too boy racer and trying too hard. Was surprised at how un-luxurious it was. Cold, hard, plastic look & feel. Hardly seemed like a Lexus. So out of place with the much nicer interiors of the ES300 and GS300. Pulled the brochure. Interesting that the final drive on the automatic is 3.909 versus 3.727 on the manual. Fifth gear overdrive is .850 on manual and .753 on automatic. Fourth is 1:00 for both.
I hope the G35 is a better, more balanced blend of sport and luxury!
I think the rear end ratio for the Manual and Auto could and should have been the same. Typical Japanese practice is close to .7 for fifth. .85 is almost worthless for an overdrive. The idea of "close ratio" is bunk for American driving. We aren't going to race on the Autobaun. We aren't going to street race to 140 mph. So it really doesn't matter if it's a downer or big leap to fifth gear. After fourth, it's all over. It's snooze and cruise time. If you want to accelerate in fifth in "close ratio", go to a six-speed. Nissan will be the first to have a Japanese six-speed (I'm assuming that the Z car six-speed is not the Getrag as used in the Supra).
Will admit I was impressed with the Lexus dealership and salesperson. They did have a 5-speed manual IS300 and they mentioned it right away and wanted me to test drive it. The salesperson also was quite knowledgeable about the car. We spent a lot of time looking over the ES300 and IS300 on showroom and in lot, but I didn't have the time to take a test drive. We'll do that in about 2 weeks. (Will admit I fell in love with the interior of the ES300. Gorgeous, maybe as nice as the Audi A6. Too bad the IS300 interior is a more a copy of the utilitarian 3 Series.)
I sat in the IS300 on one occasion and found it less than pleasant. Seats were hard and not what I would call comfortable. If you're looking for the hard bitten type sport sedan than it's fine, I suppose. If you want some comfort and luxury to go with sport sedan performance, then the G35 is well worth the wait.
With a 111 inch wheelbase in a small 182 inch package you're looking at loads of room and the interior appears much more attractive as well.
Style is subjective, but I love the comservative, yet sleek look.
I'm in the market in November 2002 and it's at the top of my list.
Think the car magazines are reporting a 112 inch wheelbase, with overall length close to 188 inches. Nissan now reporting it will use 255 HP engine, apparently same as in Maxima and I-35, but it also gets 5-speed automatic with manumatic shifting. Haven't seen anything official on whether the G35 will have an optional manual transmission in its first year.
I looked over the IS300 recently, on same day I also looked at '02 ES300 and Jag X-type & S-type. The ES300 had the nicest interior for the money followed by the S-type. The X-type was better than the IS300. The IS300 seemed too hard, plasticky, and completely non-luxurious. If you want boy racer, the IS300 is your car. Perfect car for all those Honda Civic & Prelude modifiers to move up to in their older age!
Don't think the G35 is 188in, in length, but I guess will no in a couple of months when the magazines start doing writeups.
I live in the Detroit area and expect the car should be at the Detroit Auto Show in January. Hope to give it a good look then. Most likely will be at the LA show as well.
You're right about the IS. It's strictly a Civic-Integra hotrodder's upgrade. The Sportcross version is a little more adult, but at $35000 I think I'd prefer an $18000 Protege5. It's got virtually everything the Sportcross has sans the horsepower.
Don't think the G35 is 188in, in length, but I guess will no in a couple of months when the magazines start doing writeups.
I live in the Detroit area and expect the car should be at the Detroit Auto Show in January. Hope to give it a good look then. Most likely will be at the LA show as well.
You're right about the IS. It's strictly a Civic-Integra hotrodder's upgrade. The Sportcross version is a little more adult, but at $35000 I think I'd prefer an $18000 Protege5. It's got virtually everything the Sportcross has sans the horsepower.
I bet there are LM dealers that would give away a Lincoln LS Manual in this market in the low 30's. The dealers don't want to stock the car and they usually sit on some lot for months. LM dealer's typical mantra: "Who wants to shift a luxury car". Got to get out of that "luxury car" mindset. I don't think the Lexus dealers are embarrassed to carry manual IS300's.
Ummm... you're forgetting about 2 more cylinders and RWD just to name a couple of the more notable things that would be missing in the Protoge5 when compared to the Sportcross. A more comprehesive list would be pretty long. Now if and when Infiniti decides to offer a G35 wagon you might have something to compare.
I didn't forget the two cylinders and RWD. It just isn't worth a $17000 premium for the privilege of those extras. I could use that extra money and buy a Mustang GT, with more horsepower and RWD. Then I'd have a great little sportwagon and a hot rear wheel drive performance coupe.
Point is that I believe in bang for the buck. To me an X-Type or a G35 in the low 30's is a lot more car than an IS. If I'm spending that kind of money that's what I look at. Otherwise, I'm looking to pay considerably less and do a little compromising as a result.
Pulled out the Sept 01 issue of Car & Driver. Page 31 has a one-page article on "Skyline Version is US-Bound". Says the G35 will have a 112.0 inch wheelbase and 184 inch overall length, making it "one of the biggest cars in its class". But this article also stated it would have about 270 HP. Nissan sent memos out to prospective buyers recently indicating "only" 255 HP.
If you don't mind FWD, then the 240 HP Altima 3.5 SE with 5-speed manual and the 255 HP Maxima SE with 6-speed manual & LSD will likely provide a heck of a lot of bang for not too many dollars (well under $30K if you don't go crazy on options).
G35: Previously known as the XVL concept car, the rwd 2003 G35 will arrive next spring and share platform components with Japan's new Skyline sedan.
The G35 will be powered by Nissan's 3.5-liter V-6, but horsepower will be about 280. A five-speed automatic transmission will be standard, and an awd version with a continuously variable transmission may be offered.
Although the G35 has a longer wheelbase than the I35, the overall length is shorter.
S35: Reports of a sporty Infiniti car refuse to die. A two-door rwd version of the G35 is a strong possibility in the 2004 model year, as Nissan has always made both coupe and sedan versions of the Skyline in Japan. The G35 is a derivative of the Skyline.
Nissan/Infiniti has already been mailing out their own information clearly indicating 255 HP for 2003 G35. Appears same as I-35 and Maxima. The memo doesn't discuss any optional engine or Sport Pkg. I'm praying, but looks like Nissan's HP problems (in which the ratings for many of their engines, including the Maxima/I-35 3.5L V-6, had to be reduced by 5 HP) might be causing them to reconsider saying it has 270 or 280 HP. Not sure it will matter as long as it comes with decent 6-speed manual and LSD!
You guys and your horsepower fever.I drive a 3000lb sedan with a 195hp V6 and the car really moves. I beat virtually everyone off the line at a light. Is it a rocket? No, but add 50hp and only a couple of hundred lbs. of weight (G35) and I can't imagine a need for more.I'm interested in the G35 because I think (hope) it will be reasonably priced (30-32K well equipped) very stylish (Mercedes front end), roomy yet modestly sized (112in. WB) and has good (not necessarily spectacular) performance.You guys who need 0-60 5.5 instead of 6.5 need to a new set of priorities.
FWD is nice, RWD is nice, heck any kind of drive is nice if well executed. Regardless, how exactly did we get on to this discussion. I could have sworn this was the G35 forum, you know the (soon to be) new Infiniti... the one with RWD. Hey mmcbride1, are you lost again? (That would be a rhetorical question).
Comments
We were on the verge of arguments that did not belong here. I certainly realize the difficulties of staying "on topic" when the discussion subject is a vehicle that has yet to make an appearance in the real world.
All I really want is for folks to keep it civil with an eye toward the discussion subject, and to be aware that we have a Comparisons board for extensive argu.., er, conversations about what vehicle is better than which (especially since the G35 was not incuded in the comparison conversation that was getting started!) and that we have lots of other discussions focused on specific vehicles that kept being mentioned. Some uncivil posts were indeed removed last night, so some of you might not follow the whole story here.
I think my post last night could/should have been clearer. I apologize, and hope this clarifies the situation, but if anyone has questions, please feel free to drop me an email.
Thanks!
Pat
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Sedans Message Board
I think the Altima 3.5 SE is a preview of what should be a killer G35! The G35's RWD platform should eliminate any torque steer and the near 50/50 balance should improve handling. Sounds like a win-win. A really good $25,000 Altima and a great $30,000 G35. (But don't load up the options on the Altima. The $29,400 loaded one I looked at today didn't seem to be a very good value compared to a lot of other cars.)
I-35 has standard traction control with optional Vehicle Dynamic Control in the Sport Pkg. No clear mention of LSD. Does come with standard EBD with Brake Assist.
Maxima SE DOES list "helical limited-slip differential" being available ONLY in the manual transmission model, "estimated availability: December 2001". Can get optional traction control and EBD with brake assist.
The November 2001 issue of Motor Trend tests the I-35 (4-speed) automatic Sport Pkg. 0-60 mph in 7.0 seconds. You'll be interested in knowing that they noticed the increased horsepower immediately: "as the wheel tried to torque-steer itself right out of our hands". They didn't care too much for the much more aggressive Sport Pkg suspension set up. Their I-35 went 62.4 mph in their 600-ft slalom; no g-figure reported.
FWD has its advantages in lower cost manufacturing. RWD was buried in the 1980's as emissions and CAFE became the holy grail. "Packaging efficiency" was the new buzz term. Great for small cars with small engines. RWD continued with "luxury cars", except for GM who carried the concept to the STS, etc. But now we are seeing the re-emergence of RWD. Even Cadillac is coming around. Why? They lost sales to BMW and MB because lots of oldsters never took to FWD and the yuppies read more than just PC and Money magazines.
Also, lots of people got tired of the FWD traits: torque steer, torn rubber boots, half shaft and bearing replacement, diminished turning radius, uneven/accelerated tire and brake pad wear, crowded engine compartments, more expensive labor for clutch and transmission repair, premature engine mount failure, failure of exhaust joints because of transverse engine rocking, nightmare water pump replacements, smashing of header pipes because they have to go under the engine, strange relocation of rack and pinion (some are under the windshield!),more difficult spark plug replacement in rear bank, and necessity for electric cooling fans because engine is transverse. Almost forgot: rubbery shifting linkages because tranny is not under console.
Keep in mind that fleets like taxis and police rarely use FWD because of servicibility problems.
If you lease your car and turn it in every 3 years, FWD is fine. But if you want to keep it ten years, ouch! The savings you scored when you bought it (there may not be any) will dissapear over time (probably about the five year mark). If FWD was optimum, trucks, SUVs and race cars would use it. It's mainly for appliances and not for performance. So when a RWD can be obtained for little more than a FWD, go for RWD. Yes, that Maxima,I30, looks good. Great performance for the $$$$. But in five years, I would probably tear it up. The RWD model would have fewer problems that would cost less to fix. And my mechanic would like me (although he wouldn't see me as often or be able to charge me as much labor). I'd wait for the G35.
And I think it makes even LESS difference to people who lease. Thinking latest figures showing very large percentages in regard to some manufacturers leasing their cars. Sometimes way more than are bought outright. If I only have the car for 24, 36, or 42 months, doubt I'll worry too much about what happens after 5 years. Read something within past year or two showing the average new car buyer only keeps the car for about 37 months.
As for the 10 percent where it does make a difference, guessing it may make more difference as regards their past experience. BMW or MB people keep coming back. So do Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti people. They each like what their marque has to offer.
I think Nissan might be on to something if it ensures a "hot" Altima 3.5 SE manual and a "hot" Maxima/I-35, which all might be FWD, plus a "hot" RWD G35. That way they cover both type buyers (but leave out AWD people) and a huge price range. Too bad they don't make a "hot" Q45 to compete with BMW M or MB AMG. Seems like Q competes mainly against LS430, RL, and Seville.
Torque steer has more to do with slight variation of forces that front-left wheel applies to the ground versus the front-right wheel. Torque steer in the FWD cars is most noticeable with the cars that have unequal drive shafts, for example.
Also torque steer is most noticeable in the lower than perfect traction situations, when one front wheel grips better than the other. It could be wet or snow or ice. But it could also be a result of flooring the gas pedal or going through a tight corner at high speed. One front wheel is bound to slightly lose traction sooner than the other in all these situation. Once a wheel loses traction, you have unequal resistance forces acting on the front wheels and that gets transmitted through the steering and you feel it with your hands. Unequal resistance forces on two sides of the vehicle cause it to stray off the path that you want it to take.
I always thought that at its most basic level it was usually "too much" power going to both the drive and steering wheels simultaneously. Yes, unequal half-shafts and other design factors do influence the equation, but no matter how well those are if I dial in "too much" raw power I can create torque steer. But I never hear anyone complain about torque steer in a Geo Metro or Toyota Tercel. Give those cars 200 hp and you'd get torque steer.
I'd rather have a 240 hp torque-steering Altima 3.5 SE 5-speed than lots of mediocre RWD drivetrain combinations. Don't remember anyone praising the acceleration, slalom speeds, top speeds, etc. of nice cars like 318ti, 318i, 530i automatic, LS V-6, Catera, etc. Guessing many of these owners might appreciate some more useable power!
Isn't there a RWD equivalent, if not as pronounced? Can't I overpower the rear drive wheels and fishtail side-to-side? Of course, if I could, I would NOT complain. I'd either learn to control it or let off the gas slightly or use a higher gear.
I used to drive a Pontiac Grand Prix GTP and Pontiac engineers managed to hide most of the torque steer very well despite its 240HP and 280 lbs*ft of torque. My 300M with its 350HP does not exhibit much of it either.
As for RWD, some people say that they can steer with their rear wheels, aka fishtailing. But it is quite different from torque steer since it is not tugging on the steering system.
The failings of the LS fall into two categories (Ruski will love this): 1) Fit and finish issues, and 2) Limited/nonexistant future improvements for the manual.
The car I've driven farther than any other is a Datsun 240Z. I drove it off the lot in 1993 with fewer than 10 miles on the clock and mourned over it eleven years later when it had 224K miles. Nissan builds stout vehicles.
I'm older now, and have more money. I bought an LS because it was a very attractive sedan with real performance (that means a manual & 50/50 weight distribution) in early 2000. During the purchasing decision, I looked at BMW's (5 series), the Lexus GS and the Infiniti 30, among others. My desired attributes were rear wheel drive with a manual. The BMW was more expensive and came with a "yuppie scum" image that I detest. Can't explain why I didn't consider Audi, but bad publicity lasts a long time.
All that said, I've driven my LS for 20K+ miles, rented a couple of Audi's on European business trips, and continued to follow a number of the Edmunds boards. Here's what I think I've learned: 1) The European luxury sedan crowd expects to pay "breathtakingly high" maintenance costs once the warranty (or lease) expires; 2) They consider good reliability a negative -- you don't want to own an irrelevant "appliance" -- ALL the good cars cost a lot to maintain; 3) Manual transmissions -- we don't need no stinkin' manuals.
The G35 could be a really powerful competitor. The sport cachet of a rear-wheel-drive luxury car with a manual transmission is not to be denied. Only a few in the world do it, and fewer yet try to do it in the U.S. Now let's add 250+ hp and a transmission/rear end combo that actually yields good acceleration & decent fuel mileage, with asian reliability and attention to detail.
Sign me up.
"Thank you very much for your early interest in the all-new 2003 Infiniti G35, a luxury sport sedan with a stunning level of performance and innovation, combined with a progressive new approach to exterior design and the luxury driving experience.
With a 255-horsepower DOHC V6 engine positioned behind the front axle for optimal weight distribution, a new 5-speed automatic transmission with manual shift mode, rear-wheel drive and a new 4-wheel independent multi-link suspension, the all-new 2003 G35 represents the very best of infiniti's forward thinking.
The 2003 G35 arrives in spring 2002. But you'll find frequent updates at infiniti.com. Again, thank you for your inquiry. You can expect more information on the G35 in the near future."
So much for 280 or 300 HP and no mention of the 6-speed manual. Why is Japan afraid to sell us real sports sedan?
Generally discourages the sale of niche market vehicles, from what I've been able to gather. Also tends to make it pretty difficult to upgrade or modify existing vehicles that in the past could be sold with any number of transmissions, rear ends and engines.
Ain't "progress" wonderful?
Plus I think they were afraid to make it more powerful than I35.
On paper, though, the G35 will someday be the one to beat, but that won't happen until the six-speed from the 350Z is available, and when is that going to happen?
I'm just hoping the G35 will be out with a six-speed by the time my lease is up in June of 2003. I don't think the LS Manual will significantly improve in performance by that time.
Note that even though manuals are a relatively small percentage of sales in the US, there are a few cars - such as the 540i 6-speed - that have better resale value than their automatic brethren.
and this combo would yield superb performance at a very good price. Unfortunately, it's too late for Chrysler. They have no RWD platforms left. But the point is that the hardware is on the shelves but they lack the will. Let's hope Mark McNabb at Infinity does not lack the will.
I hope the G35 is a better, more balanced blend of sport and luxury!
With a 111 inch wheelbase in a small 182 inch package you're looking at loads of room and the interior appears much more attractive as well.
Style is subjective, but I love the comservative, yet sleek look.
I'm in the market in November 2002 and it's at the top of my list.
I looked over the IS300 recently, on same day I also looked at '02 ES300 and Jag X-type & S-type. The ES300 had the nicest interior for the money followed by the S-type. The X-type was better than the IS300. The IS300 seemed too hard, plasticky, and completely non-luxurious. If you want boy racer, the IS300 is your car. Perfect car for all those Honda Civic & Prelude modifiers to move up to in their older age!
I live in the Detroit area and expect the car should be at the Detroit Auto Show in January. Hope to give it a good look then. Most likely will be at the LA show as well.
You're right about the IS. It's strictly a Civic-Integra hotrodder's upgrade. The Sportcross version is a little more adult, but at $35000 I think I'd prefer an $18000 Protege5. It's got virtually everything the Sportcross has sans the horsepower.
I live in the Detroit area and expect the car should be at the Detroit Auto Show in January. Hope to give it a good look then. Most likely will be at the LA show as well.
You're right about the IS. It's strictly a Civic-Integra hotrodder's upgrade. The Sportcross version is a little more adult, but at $35000 I think I'd prefer an $18000 Protege5. It's got virtually everything the Sportcross has sans the horsepower.
Got to get out of that "luxury car" mindset. I don't think the Lexus dealers are embarrassed to carry manual IS300's.
Point is that I believe in bang for the buck. To me an X-Type or a G35 in the low 30's is a lot more car than an IS. If I'm spending that kind of money that's what I look at. Otherwise, I'm looking to pay considerably less and do a little compromising as a result.
The G35 will be powered by Nissan's 3.5-liter V-6, but horsepower will be about 280. A five-speed automatic transmission will be standard, and an awd version with a continuously variable transmission may be offered.
Although the G35 has a longer wheelbase than the I35, the overall length is shorter.
S35: Reports of a sporty Infiniti car refuse to die. A two-door rwd version of the G35 is a strong possibility in the 2004 model year, as Nissan has always made both coupe and sedan versions of the Skyline in Japan. The G35 is a derivative of the Skyline.