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Infiniti G35 Sedan 2006 and earlier
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Comments
We were on the verge of arguments that did not belong here. I certainly realize the difficulties of staying "on topic" when the discussion subject is a vehicle that has yet to make an appearance in the real world.
All I really want is for folks to keep it civil with an eye toward the discussion subject, and to be aware that we have a Comparisons board for extensive argu.., er, conversations about what vehicle is better than which (especially since the G35 was not incuded in the comparison conversation that was getting started!) and that we have lots of other discussions focused on specific vehicles that kept being mentioned. Some uncivil posts were indeed removed last night, so some of you might not follow the whole story here.
I think my post last night could/should have been clearer. I apologize, and hope this clarifies the situation, but if anyone has questions, please feel free to drop me an email.
Thanks!
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
I think the Altima 3.5 SE is a preview of what should be a killer G35! The G35's RWD platform should eliminate any torque steer and the near 50/50 balance should improve handling. Sounds like a win-win. A really good $25,000 Altima and a great $30,000 G35. (But don't load up the options on the Altima. The $29,400 loaded one I looked at today didn't seem to be a very good value compared to a lot of other cars.)
I-35 has standard traction control with optional Vehicle Dynamic Control in the Sport Pkg. No clear mention of LSD. Does come with standard EBD with Brake Assist.
Maxima SE DOES list "helical limited-slip differential" being available ONLY in the manual transmission model, "estimated availability: December 2001". Can get optional traction control and EBD with brake assist.
The November 2001 issue of Motor Trend tests the I-35 (4-speed) automatic Sport Pkg. 0-60 mph in 7.0 seconds. You'll be interested in knowing that they noticed the increased horsepower immediately: "as the wheel tried to torque-steer itself right out of our hands". They didn't care too much for the much more aggressive Sport Pkg suspension set up. Their I-35 went 62.4 mph in their 600-ft slalom; no g-figure reported.
FWD has its advantages in lower cost manufacturing. RWD was buried in the 1980's as emissions and CAFE became the holy grail. "Packaging efficiency" was the new buzz term. Great for small cars with small engines. RWD continued with "luxury cars", except for GM who carried the concept to the STS, etc. But now we are seeing the re-emergence of RWD. Even Cadillac is coming around. Why? They lost sales to BMW and MB because lots of oldsters never took to FWD and the yuppies read more than just PC and Money magazines.
Also, lots of people got tired of the FWD traits: torque steer, torn rubber boots, half shaft and bearing replacement, diminished turning radius, uneven/accelerated tire and brake pad wear, crowded engine compartments, more expensive labor for clutch and transmission repair, premature engine mount failure, failure of exhaust joints because of transverse engine rocking, nightmare water pump replacements, smashing of header pipes because they have to go under the engine, strange relocation of rack and pinion (some are under the windshield!),more difficult spark plug replacement in rear bank, and necessity for electric cooling fans because engine is transverse. Almost forgot: rubbery shifting linkages because tranny is not under console.
Keep in mind that fleets like taxis and police rarely use FWD because of servicibility problems.
If you lease your car and turn it in every 3 years, FWD is fine. But if you want to keep it ten years, ouch! The savings you scored when you bought it (there may not be any) will dissapear over time (probably about the five year mark). If FWD was optimum, trucks, SUVs and race cars would use it. It's mainly for appliances and not for performance. So when a RWD can be obtained for little more than a FWD, go for RWD. Yes, that Maxima,I30, looks good. Great performance for the $$$$. But in five years, I would probably tear it up. The RWD model would have fewer problems that would cost less to fix. And my mechanic would like me (although he wouldn't see me as often or be able to charge me as much labor). I'd wait for the G35.
And I think it makes even LESS difference to people who lease. Thinking latest figures showing very large percentages in regard to some manufacturers leasing their cars. Sometimes way more than are bought outright. If I only have the car for 24, 36, or 42 months, doubt I'll worry too much about what happens after 5 years. Read something within past year or two showing the average new car buyer only keeps the car for about 37 months.
As for the 10 percent where it does make a difference, guessing it may make more difference as regards their past experience. BMW or MB people keep coming back. So do Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti people. They each like what their marque has to offer.
I think Nissan might be on to something if it ensures a "hot" Altima 3.5 SE manual and a "hot" Maxima/I-35, which all might be FWD, plus a "hot" RWD G35. That way they cover both type buyers (but leave out AWD people) and a huge price range. Too bad they don't make a "hot" Q45 to compete with BMW M or MB AMG. Seems like Q competes mainly against LS430, RL, and Seville.
Torque steer has more to do with slight variation of forces that front-left wheel applies to the ground versus the front-right wheel. Torque steer in the FWD cars is most noticeable with the cars that have unequal drive shafts, for example.
Also torque steer is most noticeable in the lower than perfect traction situations, when one front wheel grips better than the other. It could be wet or snow or ice. But it could also be a result of flooring the gas pedal or going through a tight corner at high speed. One front wheel is bound to slightly lose traction sooner than the other in all these situation. Once a wheel loses traction, you have unequal resistance forces acting on the front wheels and that gets transmitted through the steering and you feel it with your hands. Unequal resistance forces on two sides of the vehicle cause it to stray off the path that you want it to take.
I always thought that at its most basic level it was usually "too much" power going to both the drive and steering wheels simultaneously. Yes, unequal half-shafts and other design factors do influence the equation, but no matter how well those are if I dial in "too much" raw power I can create torque steer. But I never hear anyone complain about torque steer in a Geo Metro or Toyota Tercel. Give those cars 200 hp and you'd get torque steer.
I'd rather have a 240 hp torque-steering Altima 3.5 SE 5-speed than lots of mediocre RWD drivetrain combinations. Don't remember anyone praising the acceleration, slalom speeds, top speeds, etc. of nice cars like 318ti, 318i, 530i automatic, LS V-6, Catera, etc. Guessing many of these owners might appreciate some more useable power!
Isn't there a RWD equivalent, if not as pronounced? Can't I overpower the rear drive wheels and fishtail side-to-side? Of course, if I could, I would NOT complain. I'd either learn to control it or let off the gas slightly or use a higher gear.
I used to drive a Pontiac Grand Prix GTP and Pontiac engineers managed to hide most of the torque steer very well despite its 240HP and 280 lbs*ft of torque. My 300M with its 350HP does not exhibit much of it either.
As for RWD, some people say that they can steer with their rear wheels, aka fishtailing. But it is quite different from torque steer since it is not tugging on the steering system.
The failings of the LS fall into two categories (Ruski will love this): 1) Fit and finish issues, and 2) Limited/nonexistant future improvements for the manual.
The car I've driven farther than any other is a Datsun 240Z. I drove it off the lot in 1993 with fewer than 10 miles on the clock and mourned over it eleven years later when it had 224K miles. Nissan builds stout vehicles.
I'm older now, and have more money. I bought an LS because it was a very attractive sedan with real performance (that means a manual & 50/50 weight distribution) in early 2000. During the purchasing decision, I looked at BMW's (5 series), the Lexus GS and the Infiniti 30, among others. My desired attributes were rear wheel drive with a manual. The BMW was more expensive and came with a "yuppie scum" image that I detest. Can't explain why I didn't consider Audi, but bad publicity lasts a long time.
All that said, I've driven my LS for 20K+ miles, rented a couple of Audi's on European business trips, and continued to follow a number of the Edmunds boards. Here's what I think I've learned: 1) The European luxury sedan crowd expects to pay "breathtakingly high" maintenance costs once the warranty (or lease) expires; 2) They consider good reliability a negative -- you don't want to own an irrelevant "appliance" -- ALL the good cars cost a lot to maintain; 3) Manual transmissions -- we don't need no stinkin' manuals.
The G35 could be a really powerful competitor. The sport cachet of a rear-wheel-drive luxury car with a manual transmission is not to be denied. Only a few in the world do it, and fewer yet try to do it in the U.S. Now let's add 250+ hp and a transmission/rear end combo that actually yields good acceleration & decent fuel mileage, with asian reliability and attention to detail.
Sign me up.
"Thank you very much for your early interest in the all-new 2003 Infiniti G35, a luxury sport sedan with a stunning level of performance and innovation, combined with a progressive new approach to exterior design and the luxury driving experience.
With a 255-horsepower DOHC V6 engine positioned behind the front axle for optimal weight distribution, a new 5-speed automatic transmission with manual shift mode, rear-wheel drive and a new 4-wheel independent multi-link suspension, the all-new 2003 G35 represents the very best of infiniti's forward thinking.
The 2003 G35 arrives in spring 2002. But you'll find frequent updates at infiniti.com. Again, thank you for your inquiry. You can expect more information on the G35 in the near future."
So much for 280 or 300 HP and no mention of the 6-speed manual. Why is Japan afraid to sell us real sports sedan?
Generally discourages the sale of niche market vehicles, from what I've been able to gather. Also tends to make it pretty difficult to upgrade or modify existing vehicles that in the past could be sold with any number of transmissions, rear ends and engines.
Ain't "progress" wonderful?
Plus I think they were afraid to make it more powerful than I35.
On paper, though, the G35 will someday be the one to beat, but that won't happen until the six-speed from the 350Z is available, and when is that going to happen?
I'm just hoping the G35 will be out with a six-speed by the time my lease is up in June of 2003. I don't think the LS Manual will significantly improve in performance by that time.
Note that even though manuals are a relatively small percentage of sales in the US, there are a few cars - such as the 540i 6-speed - that have better resale value than their automatic brethren.
and this combo would yield superb performance at a very good price. Unfortunately, it's too late for Chrysler. They have no RWD platforms left. But the point is that the hardware is on the shelves but they lack the will. Let's hope Mark McNabb at Infinity does not lack the will.
I hope the G35 is a better, more balanced blend of sport and luxury!
With a 111 inch wheelbase in a small 182 inch package you're looking at loads of room and the interior appears much more attractive as well.
Style is subjective, but I love the comservative, yet sleek look.
I'm in the market in November 2002 and it's at the top of my list.
I looked over the IS300 recently, on same day I also looked at '02 ES300 and Jag X-type & S-type. The ES300 had the nicest interior for the money followed by the S-type. The X-type was better than the IS300. The IS300 seemed too hard, plasticky, and completely non-luxurious. If you want boy racer, the IS300 is your car. Perfect car for all those Honda Civic & Prelude modifiers to move up to in their older age!
I live in the Detroit area and expect the car should be at the Detroit Auto Show in January. Hope to give it a good look then. Most likely will be at the LA show as well.
You're right about the IS. It's strictly a Civic-Integra hotrodder's upgrade. The Sportcross version is a little more adult, but at $35000 I think I'd prefer an $18000 Protege5. It's got virtually everything the Sportcross has sans the horsepower.
I live in the Detroit area and expect the car should be at the Detroit Auto Show in January. Hope to give it a good look then. Most likely will be at the LA show as well.
You're right about the IS. It's strictly a Civic-Integra hotrodder's upgrade. The Sportcross version is a little more adult, but at $35000 I think I'd prefer an $18000 Protege5. It's got virtually everything the Sportcross has sans the horsepower.
Got to get out of that "luxury car" mindset. I don't think the Lexus dealers are embarrassed to carry manual IS300's.
Point is that I believe in bang for the buck. To me an X-Type or a G35 in the low 30's is a lot more car than an IS. If I'm spending that kind of money that's what I look at. Otherwise, I'm looking to pay considerably less and do a little compromising as a result.
The G35 will be powered by Nissan's 3.5-liter V-6, but horsepower will be about 280. A five-speed automatic transmission will be standard, and an awd version with a continuously variable transmission may be offered.
Although the G35 has a longer wheelbase than the I35, the overall length is shorter.
S35: Reports of a sporty Infiniti car refuse to die. A two-door rwd version of the G35 is a strong possibility in the 2004 model year, as Nissan has always made both coupe and sedan versions of the Skyline in Japan. The G35 is a derivative of the Skyline.